Anyone tried NVidia BFG 280GTX 1 Gb PC PCIe?

Well, I ended up getting a BFG 9800GTX+ OC 512Mb because my local trusty computer shop had one in stock and gave me a sweet trade-in swap on my pair of ATI 3870's. Just finished getting it installed and some minor initial tweaking. So I went from 2 cards with a total of 1GB of RAM on them to a single card with 512Mb of RAM.

My first impression - wow - had no idea SL could run this smoothly. The graphical improvement is obvious, even with water reflections & anti aliasing turned on, but that is blown away by the performance increase! On an overloaded sim with 2 clubs & way too many scripts when almost 80,000 people are online, and a bad time of day for Internet anyway in my area - and I'm walking around as smoothly as can be! Before I was lucky to get a frame rate of 10 with the graphics settings on low. Now I'm up over 30 in the same area/setup. Mind blowing.

And everything looks so good! Water is just beath-taking compared to what I was seeing with the other cards.

If you are running SL with ATI card(s) you are missing a lot. period

Told ya . Congrats on the trade in!

@ Boy Lane, yeah I took a about a 6 month leave from SL and since I got back and updated viewers the memory leaks have stopped pretty much, that's nice. But before I got them really bad and it was pretty frustrating.

@ Bailey Dharnen: Yeah it sucks not having the x10 multiplier but I'm not really an OC Junkie or anything, in fact I never really OC at all because I live in Arizona and it gets like 45C outside in the summers here, so unless you're on liquid cooling you can't OC that much. I mean, there's a lot of factors to take into consideration like the environment that you surround your PC with, what kind of case / airflow you have going on, and such. But yeah the heat itself really cooks things so yeah, none the less.

@Somatika Xiao: I run a 320mb 8800GTS with SL on High settings and the frames completely suck, especially in packed clubs. I get as low as 5-10 FPS sometimes, SL is the only game other than GTA: IV that really brings my card to its knees. But I am also running 1680x1050 resolution, so a 320mb card isn't exactly ideal for me. I'll be upgrading to something much more substantial in a couple of months though.

I think my quad core processor and 8 Gig of RAM don't hurt either but I had no idea how much my ATI video cards were holding me back performance wise. It's that much better with the nVidia card it's amazing.

It pisses me off that SL & ATI have known about this for literally years and it's not fixed yet though. I'll never buy ATI again. By all reason I should have taken a performance hit with this switch, going from 2 cards with a total of 1Gig Ram to 1 card with 512Mb. But it's more than doubled the frame rate.

SL shouldn't be listing ATI cards as a working with their viewer, they should be warning against it. Maybe then something would get fixed

I won't disagree with you on this point, from an emotional stance. I don't like ATI products very much either. But in fairness, there's not really a "fix" to be had. The two companies have differing philosophies. ATI likes to invent their own procedures for certain things, rather than comply with established standards. LL, on the other hand, does try to work with OpenGL standards as best it can. Therefore, the two will never gel perfectly.

It's a matter of point of view, really. I'd guess that from LL's perspective, ATI is annoying because they follow their own drummer. And from ATI's perspective, LL is probably wimpy or something because they don't just suck it up and spend all their time re-learning how to ride ATI's re-invented wheel.

My personal feeling is that while innovation should be embraced, standards do exist for very good reason. I'd much rather that ATI make sure their products always comply with current standards at the time of their release, even if it means their pace of innovation is slowed. And who's to say it even WOULD slow? Nvidia typically does a good job of keeping in line with standards, and they're arguably better innovators than ATI, to boot.

But as I said, that's just my personal opinion. It's not for me to say how ATI should run their company. They have the right to do things however they want, and we as consumers have the right to decide whether we want to buy from them or not.



Actually, that reasoning doesn't necessarily hold up. If the two 3870's you had before had 512MB each, then you had a usable total of 512MB, not 1GB. What you had was 2x512MB, which is not the same thing as 1GB. Put simply, you had two copies of 512MB worth of data at any given time, not 1GB of unique data. In order to have a gigabyte of data, you would have needed to have 1GB of memory on each card.

Think of it kind of like having two identical chocolate cakes on your kitchen table. Just because there are two of them doesn't mean they taste twice as chocolaty. They're both exactly the same. In order to have a cake that tastes more chocolaty, you'd have to increase the amount of chocolate in the cake's recipe, not just add more of the same cake. For this analogy, adding more chocolate to a single cake is equivalent to adding more memory to a single video card. Just adding another identical card does not increase the amount of data the memory can store any more than adding another identical cake increases the intensity of the chocolate flavor. Make sense?

What having two cards does do is increase the processing power, not the memory. Theoretically, double the processing power should equal double the performance. But these things don't exist in a vacuum. There are other factors to consider. Sometimes, having two cards in place can actually slow things down, since the system has to keep deciding how best to swap between them on the fly.

For example, a friend of mine was getting horrible performance in Mudbox with a pair of 8800GTX's. He pulled one of the cards out, and the problem went away. Interestingly, I've got the same model cards, just from a different make (he's got XFX, I've got EVGA), and I don't have any problem with Mudbox with both cards in place. There are probably a million little factors that determine how well what will work with what. More is sometimes better, but not always.




Again, emotionally I agree with you. But technically, ATI cards do work with the viewer. They just don't work quite the same way as nVidia cards.

You never had 1 gig of v-ram with your old cards, SLI and Crossfire do not share v-ram between the cards. It just uses v-ram from the first card, so you only ever had 512mb of v-ram before. This is a common misconception.

Also I have always had massive computer crashes with ATI cards, even in my laptop. I personally won't jump off a cliff again with ATI like it has been for the past 10 years, I buy only Nvidia products now for a good reason, and I have never had problems with them in the years that I have used them.

Thanks guys for explaining the way dual video cards work. I did not understand this before but what you're saying does make sense considering the experience I've had with them.



This I don't agree with, emotionally or technically. The improvements I've noticed since switching from the ATI to the Nvidia cards include:

- had to run ATI on mid, can have Nvidia on ultra graphics settings
- framerate going from 10ish to 30-40ish
- textures as well as objects loading WAY faster
- can walk smoothly and easily anywhere I go
- can now use water reflections, anti-aliasing and anistrophic filtering

They certainly don't work the same way but this isn't a very grey area here, one works well and the other allows you to play but only if you turn everything down and don't mind very poor performance. Saying that ATI cards work with SL is like saying that life works without any arms and legs. Yeah, you're alive and if you can't do anything about it then it's better than no life but jeez, there's a big difference!

Perhaps LL could simply put a warning about ATI on their recommended video cards list. Something like "will work but you'll be severely handicapped".

I completely agree with that. However they are likely commercial reasons they can not put out such a warning.

In fact ATi broke their OpenGL implementation with release of Catalyst 7.12. Till today that has not been fixed. Also as mentioned by Zen Linden ATi confirmed that the current Catalyst drivers have a bug with compressed and uncompressed textures that cause crashes and other problems. There is a very long list of ATi related Jira tickets:
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-12080

So, I tend to say ATi is not properly working with SL and also a number of other applications and games that utilize OpenGL. For some older cards there are 3rd party drivers (DNA) that backport to OpenGL from Catalyst 7.11 as workaround. However this doesn't work for new models.

But worse, according to Zen ATi may fix the identified texture problems in an upcoming Catalyst 9.4, but this release will drop support for a number of widely used cards: Radeon 9500, 9600, 9800, X800, X1800, X1900 and other older desktop video cards. So there is probably not much hope for getting SL ever running properly if you have one of these cards. If 9.4 will fix any of the issues with SL at all is another subject, we don't know yet.

So the only conclusion is, stay far far away from ATi when you want to use SL or any other OpenGL application.

No problem. For what it's worth, I actually made the exact same mistake when I bought my two 8800's. I thought 2x768MB would mean 1.5GB of video memory. A few months later, an EVGA tech support rep explained to me how it really works, when the subject came up during a support call. It's a very common misconception, I think.





I get your point, and I'd be the last person to defend ATI, but keep in mind, not everyone's experience is going to be as dramatic as yours. Mileage does vary from computer to computer. While most people will experience an increase in performance upon switching to an nVidia card from a comparable model ATI card, it's often very slight. A 3 to 4 fold difference like yours isn't the norm.

Further, while I don't necessarily agree with them, there are plenty of people out there who'd rather pay a little less for a graphical experience that is "good enough" than pay more for one that is as good as possible. Lots of people feel that nVidia products are over-priced. Again, I don't agree, but I don't have to. Those people exist, and their number is not trivial.



I'm not sure a warning would be the right strategy, since that could potentially get them into trouble, but it's certainly arguable that taking ATI cards off the recommended specs list would be a good idea.

I just got a brand new system with SLI Dual NVidia Geforce 9800 GT cards 2x256 equaling 512 meg and SL is crap on it. I can log in and stay for hours if I don't move. The minute I walk it's like a sim crossing everytime and I just keep going and going and going. I'm so frustrated I could cry. I was wondering if I took one of the cards out if that would help or is it just the SLI SL is not compatible with. A friend of mine recommended something called "Coolbits" that may help but I'm thinking I spent 600$ on these freaking cards that don't work and will have to end up buying a single 512 8800 to play again. Any help or ideas would be very much appreciated.

Firstly 2x256 does not = 512, you have 256 still because SLI does not use the second card's V-ram, I explained this before.

Secondly, this ''lag'' you mention is a server/network type of lag and not hardware lag, and you would not have to take the second card out to disable SLI, you just simply go into your Nvidia control panel I think. SLI could be causing some bad FPS because I don't think SL is optimized for it, but it may run fine too. Although having only 256mb of v-ram is going to bog you down some.

Thirdly if you payed 600$ for two 256mb 9800GTs then you got über ripped off. I could get two of those for 200$ (USD) or less, but I guess it depends on where you live too.

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/245454-33-crossfire-faqs Please read this if you do not fully understand SLI, it will cover up most of the confusion.

In addition to seconding all the points in Amaterasu's most excellent post, let me just add one more thing to answer your question, Natalia, about whether or not SL is compatible with SLI. The answer is yes, it is compatible. However, mileage tends to vary. Some people report increases to frame rate with SLI enabled, others report decreases, and still others report no change at all.

On my desktop with dual 8800GTX's, I get around a 30% increase with SLI enabled. I don't usually run SLI, though, because I drive 4 monitors with the two cards. SLI won't work with multiple monitors. It's a one-monitor-only feature.

On my laptop, which has dual 8700M GT's in it, I keep SLI running almost all the time. I get about a 10% increase to framerate in SL with SLI enabled.

I've never personally experienced anything but an increase from SLI, but as I said, some people do report no change, or even slowdowns. The only way to know whether it will benefit your particular machine is just to try it.


In any case, as Amaterasu pointed out, the kind of lag you've described is typical to network problems. Video lag would manifest totally different symptoms. Chances are your video setup is just fine. But whether it is or it isn't, your immediate problem is elsewhere.

Check your stats bar (crl-shift-1) and take a look at your packet loss and ping. Packet loss should be 0%. Ping should be 100 msec or less. If either of those numbers is higher than that, you've got a problem with either your network card, your modem, your router, or your ISP.

I've checked for packet loss which is less than 0.03% and my ISP is just fine in fact the first thing I did was have the cable company come out and check with connections in my home as well as outside they also gave me a brand new modem. The other thing is, SL works perfectly fine on my laptop which is a far lesser machine in terms of hard drive/ram and v-ram (video card in that one is an ATI 1150 I believe) which is why I considered the video card in my new machine. I also have a friend that recently upgraded her card to the NVidia 9800 who was having the same problems walking and tping until she updated the drivers and set her graphics in her preferences. I have also updated the drivers and set my graphics settings as she has but I'm still having the issues. I've also done numerous download/speed tests on various websites to check my net and they all come out golden. So I'm lost as to what the issue is. I appreciate the responses.

0.03% is a small number, but it's not zero. Three out of every thousand packets are getting lost. That's obviously not as bad as it could be, but I wouldn't call it insignificant either. It should be zero.

What's your ping to the sim?

If your other computer is working, then we can rule out modem/router/ISP problems. It's possible that when you installed the new video card, the graphics driver installation somehow screwed up the network card driver. Try downloading and installing the latest drivers for your network card and your motherboard. And don't forget to run Driver Cleaner to clear out the old ones first.

If that doesn't solve it, and you're positive that all your connections and cables are good, then I'm stumped for now. Good luck.

It's actually a brand new system from Dell. I downloaded the updated drivers. Uninstalled them completely and then installed them. Trust me I've done tons of troubleshooting on this mess since the pc was delivered last Friday. Next thing I'm trying is a friend of mine is going to take it to his house and plug it up to see if he gets the same performance through the net at his house. (And yes we have the same internet company.) One last thing....My new system came with Windows Vista 64 bit instead of 32 bit....could that play a part?

I've got Vista x64 on 3 machines here. They all run SL very well. So it's unlikely that that has anything to do with it.

I didn't realize the whole machine was brand new. I missed that the first time I read your first post. I thought that since you'd been so quick to point to your graphic cards for your problem, that only the cards were new. If the whole thing is new, then the issue really could be anything. You've got no prior basis for comparison to help pinpoint the bottleneck.

If you can't get it to work, I'd say pack it up and send it back to Dell. If nothing else, Dell does have a good return policy.

Get a comparably spec'ed machine from someone else. No doubt you'll find a similar or better machine for less money anyway, so it'll be a win-win. Or even better, order the parts and build it yourself. Parts makers like XFX and EVGA tend to have much better customer service, better warranties, and lower prices than full PC builders like Dell.

Case in point on pricing, the $600 you paid for those two 9800GT's. Had you bought them separately, you would have saved 30-50% or more. The highest priced 9800GT you can find on Newegg is only $200. Most are in the $150-ish range. So for two, you're only talking $300-400, max.

Common pitfalls with Dells, just so you know, are bottom of the barrel PSU's, oddball motherboards, and sometimes weird configurations. Again, your video cards would be a good example of that weirdness. The standard amount of memory for a 9800GT is 512MB. Some come with 1GB. You can't buy one separately with only 256MB like yours have. That's all Dell.

When I ordered the pc, my best friend who was in IT for 8 years was with me and we ordered the exact same system he got from dell and his works perfectly with the exception of the graphics card. His is an NVidia 8800 512 meg single card. Otherwise the two systems are the same.

I still have a hard time believing a bad graphics card would cause the symptoms you described, but stranger things have happened. If you want to try an experiment, you could always borrow your friend's card for a few hours, assuming he's willing.

The entire GeForce 8 and 9 series run on the same drivers now, so you wouldn't even have to reinstall any software. Just swap the cards, and you should be good to go. If it works, problem solved; return the cards to Dell. If it doesn't work, then you can be 100% sure the trouble is something else.

What are your full system specs, by the way? Got a link to the particular Dell model you purchased?

Looking at the Dell website right now, I don't see any option for a 256MB 9800GT. Are you sure that's what you've got? There appear to be a few XPS models that come with either one or two 9800GT's, but all are with the standard 512MB version of the card. I see no 256MB version anywhere. Is it possible that when you saw the wording "Dual nVidia GeForce 9800GT 512MB" you just assumed each card was half the total? If that was the case, then for future reference, "Dual nVidia GeForce 9800GT 512MB" means that both cards each have 512MB individually. If they had 256MB each, it would have said "Dual nVidia GeForce 9800GT 256MB". What does it say on your invoice?

Also, I notice the cost for those cards is nowhere near $600. Judging by the price difference between getting one or two, they're $150 each, just as they should be. Looking for the number 600 specifically, I do notice the difference between a single 9800GT and a pair of GTX285's is $600. Is that perhaps where you got that number from, or did the prices really change so dramatically in the past few days since you got yours?

good info in this thread,nice work people. i fankin yooo.
did the SL and 'NVIDIA GeForce GTS 250 - 1 GB' compatabillity question get answered? maybee i missed it.
i know the card is pretty much a 9800 gtx+ . tarted up but do the same drivers for the 9800 series werk on the 250?

wud luv to know cos i wanna get this spec (below)built real quick and need to find all the 'holes ' in my master plan muahahahahahahah

CPU Intel Core 2 Quad Q8300 (4 x 2.50 GHZ) 1333FSB - 4 MB
Motherboard ASUS P5N73-AM S/V/L M-ATX 1333FSB (NVIDIA 7050)
Memory Corsair XMS2 4GB PC-6400 800 MHZ (2 x 2 GB) -
Graphics Card NVIDIA GeForce GTS 250 - 1 GB - 2xDVI/VGA (EVGA) - Super Clocked
Monitor 2 x 19" Widescreen TFT Silver/Black (Dual Screen Setup) - 5MS

mmmmm........dual screeeeen....... (drooooools)

In theory you do double the VRAM on the graphic cards, mainly depending on what SLI method you use. Where do you think the performance increase comes from at the higher resolutions over a single card? You wouldn't be getting nearly double the FPS in some games at 1920x1200 resolutions with only 512mb VRAM over a single card at this resolution with 512mb VRAM.

Split Frame Rendering will, in theory, double the VRAM as the work load is split 50/50, so you have twice as much RAM to use as you for textures.

Um, I'm pretty sure when you have two cards splitting the workload on 1920x1200 or + resolutions you are going to expect an FPS boost. That is where you're getting it.

You're applying twice the processing power, so OF COURSE you're increasing the performance, before RAM is even accounted for. Both GPU's are working on the same scene.

In order for that to happen, both cards need to have the same assets in memory. You're getting two identical instances of one set of data, not two unique sets.




That's not really accurate. First, it's rarely an even 50/50 spit. In one frame, it might be 70/30, and in the next it might be 45/65, and in the next it might be 90/10. It all depends on what's determined to be the most efficient use of processor resources for each render pass.

Second, both cards are still receiving the same set of assets into memory. All that's being split is which one is drawing which pixel. It's a GPU split, not a memory split.

Well of course it depends what's in the scene. If 60% of the top half is just sky, then it will re-balance the load to even it out, I was meaning 50/50 as in both cards take their own share of the work for the geometry.

I know that straight out you are still only limited to the amount of RAM the primary card has, so both cards have 512mb for example, then you have 2x 512mb not 1x 1GB, so I'm explaining theoretically, but both are still being used at the same time, instead of cramming it all in to GPU1, GPU2 is helping render the same stuff, but only the share that it's been assigned to, for SFR and AFR.

Not quite true. The newest Intel motherboards (the ones that support the new Core i7 processors) will work with both SLI and CrossFire if they have two or more PCI Express x16 slots (most will, but there are some MicroATX versions with only one). Those are the only motherboards with non-NVidia chip sets that have SLI support.

Sadly it won't work that way, because the SL viewer will still need to load all your textures into the memory of both cards. If the SL viewer actually had built-in support for multiple GPUs it might be able to avoid that and not load the textures that don't appear in the half of the scene, but it isn't clever enough to do that. So you don't get any effective increase in texture memory, but you DO get an effective increase in texture memory BANDWIDTH, and in the number of shaders to throw at the rendering.