Terraforming limits?!?!?!? NOOOOOO!!!!

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Please reference the new thread for factual info:
/111/2f/13495/1.html
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Well folks it's official

I have been avidly terraforming since public release almost 1 year ago. I have not been terraforming a lot since 1.3, but have recently dived back in to move a couple of projects forward. Unfortunately I have discovered what I consider to be the largest SL bug!

In pre 1.2 simulators, you CANNOT raise or lower land more than 20 meters above or below it's pre 1.2 position. Period. I have tried every way possible. I have compiled a small list of facts and test results. This is an issue that I personally NEED addressed. There are several projects that are rather dependant on my terraforming skills, and right now I cannot move forward.

The ability to create a mountain in SL is no longer available The ability to correctly create caves has also gone the way of the dodo. I NEED THESE SKILLS!!!!!!!

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SL Terraform Testing
Current date: 050204

Notes pre 1.2:

- using the RAISE tool, could be raised to any height with the angle being restricted by the X and Y values of the land size
/ sim height being the absolute height (note: this is untested due to personal land restrictions pre 1.2)
/ example: a 96 sqm plot could only be raised to a height of 96 sqm, AND ONLY if you raised the entire piece
- using the LOWER tool, could be raised to any depth with the angle being restricted by the X and Y values of the land size
/ depth was able to cross the sim line, but any building in such a way would go off world
/ example: a 96 sqm plot could only be lowered to a depth of 96 sqm, AND ONLY if you lowered the entire piece
- using the FLATTEN tool, you could break most of those rules
/ using flatten you could create 90 degree angles in your already raised land
/ you could do so to any depth
/ you could do so to a height of about 3 meters

1.2 Terraforming notes:

- all pre 1.2 rules are no longer appplicable
- you CANNOT raise or lower land more than 20 meters above or below its pre 1.2 position
/ regardless of X and Y land values
/ the FLATTEN tool is the only thing that potentially breaks this rule and ONLY when you are lowering the land

TESTING SIMULATORS: Zoe / Indigo

Testing information:
plot size: 16 sqm
pre 1.2 height: 28.821274 meters
after RAISE: 48.104713 meters
NOTE: when plot size was doubled, tripled & quadrupled, height values remained the same

plot size: 32 sqm
pre 1.2 height: 28.709520 meters
after LOWER: 8.824286 meters
NOTE: when plot size was doubled, tripled & quadrupled, height values remained the same

I have also spoken with David Linden about this and as far as I can tell the Lindens are unaware of this problem.

However as a concrete example, in Indigo I created Indigo mountain which has a height of 123.5 meters above sea level. This would now be impossible to build

I've noticed the same thing in Tehama. The Tehama Lodge had an extensive basement that went down to 0m (or very near that). Since the lodge was destroyed in the latest prim server bug, I decided to remove the basement but found out I couldn't. I wasn't sure why the land refused to raise up past a certain point, but it looks like it maybe identical to the problem you are having in Zoe and Indigo.

This all is very strange. I was under the impression that, as of 1.3, the older sims were actually "more flexible" in their terraforming ranges than they were before, a sort of "grandfathered" feature. You all are stating the reverse is true-- that they've been limited, and are now stuck within a narrow range of their heightmaps as of v1.3.0?

It's gotta be a bug. The ancient sims were supposed to have more terraforming ability than ever before.

That is correct Chromal I was also under that impression, and thought it was true due to the terraforming I had done. The difference between the tools now and b4 1.3 is crazy! Nevertheless I ran tests until late into the evening trying to prove my theories "wrong".

The worst part for me frankly is that the angular ground terraforming no longer works. when you raise a whole area, even an entire sim, it will create an identical surface map 20 meters above and below 1.2 land. but no higher and no lower.

Lindens are unaware of this? Weird. This is exactly what was reported to be coming ever since 1.3 was first announced. Terraforming tools are revamped, new sims put in since the announcement are generally limited to terraforming +/- 4 meters and the older sims are limited to +/- 20 meters.

It's not a bug, it's a new feature.

ty Ananda. I had thought I heard this but was not positive of the answer. I have also spoken with Khamon Fate to understand some things. It is set this way so that the servers have a place to reset to in case of happenstances like the land shifts of late. Unfortunately it's all mapped to the pre 1.2 land. And not to be a bugger, but a whole lot of pre 1.2 land is ugly and forcing me to keep that surface map at 20 meters above and below stinks. Sorry I like to terraform!

I also cannot build huge mountains or deep caves anymore. I will have to manufacture them out of prims. Boo! Pre 1.2 that was not the case. I could dig all the way to water as long as my land X Ys allowed it.

This also has disabled the angular land function from pre1.2. no more soft hills without a pain in the butt!

Oh well, I'm just ranting now hehe Excuse me Thanks for the info everybody!

P.S. psst Lindens! You can alway find a way to just give me the skills *wink* *wink* hehe

So basically, land we bought and paid for before 1.3 has had it's limits changed even though we 'OWN' it?

Is this legal?

How can they say "your world" and "your imagination" if most of the world is limited to +/- 4 meters of terraforming?
If we now have the ability to revert all changes ever made to the land, whats the point?

I talked to a Linden, and they said that pre 1.3 (or maybe it was 1.2, sometime in the near past before the new terraforming became available) the old sim elevations and contours were "baked", meaning those were considered to be the original terraformed heights of each portion of land. The new sim "baked" elevations are the elevations that existed when the sim went "LIVE". This was used as the "starting point", or heights you would revert to with the revert tool.

The old sims were initially set to allow +20m and -20m elevation changes from that point onward. They said they are willing to modify those values(up to +100m and -100m) in the old sims if the residents decide that is what they want in that particular sim.

The new sims will not be changed from their +4m and -4m limits, but I'm sure that can be reconsidered if a large marjority of a sim requests it.

fantastic Hank! ty ty ty for that info=)

I imagine that I will be able to get the residents of Zoe to agree to it, and I will definitely be able to get Indigo on it. HOORAY!!!! I can finish my caves!!!

Which Linden did you talk to, both Haney & David seemed pretty clueless about this subject?

Eggy & Garth... I couldn't agree more with both of your points, but I also can say that I am one of very few people that is even attempting to terraform on a large scale. hehe I can't blame the lindens for wanting this place to be more than the flat, crappy, prairies that it was pre 1.2. Unfortunately, limiting the terraform distance is the only option. Otherwise all of the wonderful work that has gone into terraforming the new sims would go to waste.

There'd be no water and no hills in no time! Don't forget everybody and their mother has to have a freakin store!!!

Personally, I love the +/- 4 meters on the new sims. It has been a month since the tools were in place to change the land and they still look good! Not good, great!

Under the 'original' method (no limits) it would take a couple of days before the land in a new sim was utterly destroyed and ugly. Under the second system (slope limits) it was a matter of a short time, a few weeks or 1 month, before someone bought enough land to build their giant platoe(sp) and flatten most of the sim. Why would Linden even bother to put time and effort into making nice looking terrain if it was gone that quickly with no way to revert it or anything? People were complaining about the lack of nice terrain features - water ways, hills, mountains. Those features were few and far between because the best land to put your house on was a flat patch as big as your house.

The new system gives you more freedom - no slope limit - and less freedom - a height limit. However a height limit keeps the land in the general shape it was made, you don't need to fear that your neighbor who owned a valley when you moved in will suddenly own a vulcano. You don't need to worry that your beach front property will suddenly be next to a used car lot instead of a beach. At the same time +/- 4 meters is enough to make a reasonable hill into a reasonable flat spot for a house or shop, or do some more creative terraforming. Alek was having a blast putting an inlet / break off island on our new property and it looks very good.

For clarity: I am not commenting on the old sims, I am saying I like the new method for the new sims.

(It was 1.3, not 1.2 that added the new features and baked the old sim height maps, the time between 1.2 and 1.3 was when new land released was non terraformable.)

Thanks for the clarification Ama!

BTW, I completely agree with you on your views about the new sims. I have even told several Lindens driectly that I love the new sims and their terrain. I am very glad they are restricted to protect their beauty!

However, I only like it if there is the option;by having the old sims be more flexible. And I am sorry to say that 20 meters isn't that darned flexible. Not for 'former like me anyway

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I agree-- the old sims have been terribly wounded. It'd be nice if the "restore" function actually restored the old sims to their original land meshes. that'd be wonderful. I'd love to see Olive restored. But failing that, we need the flexibility to nurse them back from their basement-cratered states to something .. uh, reasonable.

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Please reference the new thread for factual info:
http://forums.secondlife.com/showth...?threadid=13495
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I couldn't agree more Chromal. I am not very happy about this. Though I realize I am part of a very small minority, this method is forcing me, someone with good 'forming skills who wants to use them, to purchase a leased server from them. It is rather disbaraging I'll be the first to admit that I will probably do it, but it saddens me to have to say goodbye to Zoe

Well, how many worlds give you even that much? The problem is that any privelege becomes viewed as a right after about ten minutes. Would you have a problem with the "Your world. Your Imagination." slogan if they had never implemented terraforming?

How can they say it's my world if I they don't let me pour milkshakes into the servers that host it?

Hey....I have a pit that I am very proud of in Olive!! It is not a basement. I consider myself a 'former too and knew that these changes were coming long time ago and even posted about it in the forums...and people dissed me for it....pppfffftttttt...
Long live 'formers!!! We ROCK!!!