Suggestion for 'curing' lag.

Hi,

I thought of this about a week ago, the idea is instead of running the SL client on the users desktop, have it run in the linden lab cloud and use a refined remote desktop technology to display the client on the users machine. If it works it could also do away with compatibility, driver issues etc.

Edits: the rendering would be done at the same physical location as the sim servers, cutting the internet lag between the sim and client render process.

What do you think?

why? what are the benefits?

1. Higher frames per second in crowded areas.
2. Reduction in 'gray life' (texture loading).

Name your most refined remote desktop application... Then tell me it's bandwidth overhead while transmitting dynamic graphics. I'm sure you'll quickly discover that the majority of residential internet access won't be able to carry the stream. Add to that, you just added another CPU to the LL server farm. Such a device would have a monthly fee of over $400U.S. maintenance fee alone. (>_<

Sorry... No dice. (=_=)y

The bandwidth would be the main cost, I doubt the maint costs would be anywhere near that, it would have to be a subscription service though I think. Input lag might be an issue, maybe the remote desktop would be a video stream at 2-5mbps, a video stream is the only way I can think of that would give a smooth looking appearance?

Buy a faster video card.

Most of the time a $600 video card has no benefit over a $200 video card in SL probably less than 1% of the user base has a $600 card.

But I'd rather they invest the millions of dollars required to have a go at this idea into enhancing the code base so this becomes near meaningless (although cloud rendering might be the ultimate solution) .

Sounds like Otoy. http://www.otoy.com/site/start.htm , or liveplace, http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/11/liveplace-to-launch-photo-realistic-virtual-world-rendered-in-the-cloud/

I've heard about them before, that's probably how the idea came to mind, I have some hope for them but I've seen some severe skepticism, here in the SL forums though - time for a link , the technology itself might be sound but issues around funding sources and the companies choices about a users ability to create content..

I have question. maybe hijack the thread a bit but is to to do with cloud or distributed computing so =)

I read once that avatar textures from everyone are sent down to me. And then my viewer bakes them all and then shows them on my screen. It was done like this to reduce load on the server. And thats why or how textures / clothes / hair / shoes can get pinched right off another avatar while they wearing them. Is that right ???

If thats the case then why doesnt my viewer bake just my skin+outfit then upload it to the server which then just sends my baked image to the other computers ??? Wouldn't that be better for everyone, because we all not individually baking every avatar and also not adding any baking time to the server.

Will be an upload time penalty for me but noone else I dont think. And some server caching of my baked image which only stays while Im present or until I change my outfit. I probably be a bit greyer or cloudier for longer on other peoples screens if I have a slower computer, but even with a fast computer lots of avatars stay grey/cloudy for a longtime in crowded areas anyways. So overall I think we would go faster maybe ???

Maybe one bake image from me is not enough, maybe 3. Head, torso, legs. If I just get a baked torso skin+undershirt+shirt+jacket image from another avatar, then its not going to make any difference to how it displays, to getting them all seperately, is it ???

Yes... A 1600x1200 video stream? Tell me you understand how much bandwidth that kind of picture needs. (>_<

And... Right now a regular sim runs on a CPU core... Look at the maintenance fee for that thing. What you're asking for is processor time. 3D graphics processing is HEAVY processing time. So the fee will have to be up around the price of a sim or more. Add to that... We're currently at a model based on one processor core per sim. You're asking for one processor core per active resident. The "solution" is more problematic than the "problem". (=_=)y

That's what happens... You bake you, upload the overall baked texture... Everyone else downloads just the final single baked product, not all the layers. (^_^)y

Your avatar's texture get sent to you, baked, sent back to LL, and the baked texture gets sent to everyone, including you.

My understanding is that at one time, and possibly still, under certain conditions, you could be sent other people's unbaked textures, and that this is what the old setting "Outfit Composite Limit" was for.



I'm not finding the Outfit Composite Limit at the moment in the interface or the debug settings so that might have changed, but I'm running the Cool Viewer at the moment.

multiple threads per core, 4x core per chip, many chips in a server, in a few years it will be 8x cores per chip.

your right about the video stream though - probably too much bandwidth for 5 years at least (its also an inelegant solution), maybe otoy type technology is the answer, we need someone qualified to completely debunk that technology otherwise it looks promising - it doesn't take 1 core per user .

So? You don't need a $600 or even a $200 video card to run SL well.

I'm not sure spending millions of dollars on new infrastructure for people who refuse to part with their Rage 64 is a wise investment on LL's part.

The people complaining about laggy video will just start complaining about their laggy network connection.

Right... It doesn't take 1 core. In my case, it's taking about 2 of my 4 cores, 1 to 2GB of RAM, and a high performance GPU with 256MB of video RAM. At the moment, the 2.21 client still has major dips in FPS after teleports that can't be attributed to anything but compatibility/performance of my own system. (=_=)

Of course... To stream that that... It would take another few threads to encode the final picture to a lossy raster format that can be streamed. So, consider that another core. (=_=)

The sim servers have it easy. H4 CAN be a heavy load, but, only when large number of physical objects exist. Most of the time, residents are nice to the physics engine. Scripting is throttled enough that it takes a pretty smart idiot to really bugger things. (^_^)

In the end, the REAL load is distributed already. Graphics rendering (the most processor intensive portion of the entire service) is left to the client machines, and is processed individually per resident on each resident's computer. Yes, that's an overly simplistic way of describing it. But, understand, full-screen vector rendering using the polygon counts that SL and it's resident content creators demand is something that takes pretty darned advanced hardware. And, not something you can have processed in bulk by a server. (^_^)y

I'm doing it on an $80 card. MSI 8600GT-256. No lag on me. (^_^)y

And what's your FPS in crowded areas?

yes the $ I quoted was wrong, $100 instead of $200 .

In the end the idea is without specifics to offload some or all of the rendering duties to the cloud rather than the users PC.
It may not be necessary with improvements to the code of SL and similar virtual worlds, it may be a part of the solution even with improvements.

I already do!

20 to 25, depending on the crowd. Anime is drawn at 15fps, and I'm not in SL for a FPS Frag Fest, so that's plenty good for me. (^_^)y

But.... With 1.21... I have this "spike" situation where I fall below 0.5fps or so after teleports. (>_< ... It's only in that version, and I have to wait until I can get home to see if 1.22 fixed it. (>_<

20-25 is better, is that in a crowded welcome area?
Maybe I have to trade my $100 ATI gfx card for a $100 nvidia one? its a shame SL doesn't properly support ATI cards, its not something a user should be thinking about, something that drives users a way I guess, 0-10 fps slideshows would drive a lot of people away.
Maybe rename this thread 'Please support ATI graphics cards'. .

It it important however for the fps to not drop below 25, something they should be working really hard for - even if the network connection is a bit laggy - there are tricks that can be implemented, my connection is great however - it must be the graphics card support.

We also need benchmarks for various hw configurations in SL so users can avoid some of the performance issues if they care too.

Maybe SL favors Intel over AMD, just like Nvidia over ATI? And so on..

Actually... You're not far from the truth there. SL does seem to run at it's best on AMD systems with NVidia 8 series cards. There was that one clothing layer bug with the latest drivers, but, as a whole... Intel and ATI hasn't been the way to go for the optimum configuration for SL. (^_^)

And, yeah, Hanja has been quite avatar loaded lately. At the moment, I can't even take my laptop there with the near 100 avatar head count that hangs out at the quad. (^_^)

I think someone had a stack of GPUs charted once, but, it was long ago and most current cards aren't even considered. When I was beating Torley around about shadow rendering, I got from him that he's using an 8800GTX. That may be the direction I go... But... I want to see how the community reacts to the shadow client after it comes out for First Look, Release Candidate, whatever.... (^_^)y

@ Imnotgoing and Suzeanne

Thanks =)

It didnt sound right when I heard it. Sounded kinda dumb actually. I need to stop listening to people who dont kno what they talking about and come here more instead. But then I dont kno what Im talking about most of the time either so cant blame other people to much I suppose =)

So to summarize: LL has huge amounts of compatibility/testing and so on work to do if they'd like the userbase to grow significantly.

The user has to build a separate pc with a specific configuration just to run SL somewhat decently? surely it seems ridiculous to a lot of people inside and outside of SL.

Asking the user to bend over backwards is not a good welcome party.

Why a separate PC? All the customer needs is a good performing system centered around 3D rendering and a fast internet connection. One should expect those requirements of a dynamic, 3D, online, virtual world. (O.o)

In the end, that machine should be prepared for any task tossed at it. (^_^)

For anyone who hasn't been paying attention. The personal computer industry has been making software advancements and hardware enhancements for years.... decades even. (^_^)

Entire careers are based on bigger, better, faster, more. Just because I bought the second most expensive buzz box last year, doesn't mean the industry should stop making bigger buzzers and faster boxes. (>_<

I'm here for the eye candy. And if it takes quarterly or bi-annual hardware bumps to keep up, I'm glad to do it. And I won't let the E-Amish limit the vendor of my experience to satisfy their preference of the ancient technologies of yesteryear. (=_=)

Advance and let technology fly. Anything less is entropy. (^_^)y