Looking Forward: Version 1.2
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Daniel Linden
Contains Multitudes
Join date: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 103
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08-29-2003 15:45
Second Life version 1.1 hasn't even landed on your PC, but we're already looking for some feedback about our concept for version 1.2. The biggest change scheduled for Second Life 1.2 is a completely re-thought user interface, and the second major advancement should be integrating Havok 2.2. As we're at an extremely early stage, nothing is set in stone and your help in refining these ideas and getting a feel for their relative importance to the Second Life community will be extremely valuable as we chart our future course. I encourage you to read the entire Concept Update about Offline Chat and IM, and let us know what you think.
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Bel Muse
Registered User
Join date: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 388
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09-02-2003 14:25
I think it would be awesome to see who's online! yes, please!
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Colin Linden
Failure of Profile Wit
Join date: 26 Aug 2003
Posts: 104
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09-02-2003 14:44
Actually, Bel, you can do this right now.
If you goto the Resident Life section under the Community drop down, there is a "see who's online now" link which will tell you who, among people who's calling cards you hold, is actually online.
Colin
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Dave Zeeman
Master Procrastinator
Join date: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 1,025
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09-02-2003 16:27
Welcome to the SL community Colin 
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Christopher Omega
Oxymoron
Join date: 28 Mar 2003
Posts: 1,828
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09-02-2003 17:47
Personally, Im siding with Eggy on the inclusion of an external IM client. I believe more time should be spent on researching features the users actually request, and a revamp of LSL  . Right now, the only major flaws in the UI that I see are: That the UI isnt contained in a seperate thread then the viewer, right now, the UI lags when the vlewer lags. The edit window definately needs a revamp, here are the flaws in it I can think of: A. Closing the edit window resets your camera to the default position. Seeing that you cant trigger touch_start() events while in edit mode makes this a real inconviniance when testing scripted objects that may be a long distance away from your avitar. B. Exact positioning of linked sets and selected prims needs to be fixed. Right now, if you select two objects, and type a new Z-position for them, only the last object you selected goes to that Z-position. If you type in a scale, the same thing happens. In linked sets, typing an exact position/rotation/scalr for a child primitive, in select individual mode is impossible. At least typing in an exact scale position should be implimented there. When in position mode for a linked set, typing in a scale value only scales the parent prim. When 'stretch both sides' is selected, and a corner is scaled using manual scaling (you drag a gray cube while holding ctrl + shift) the object's position changes, even though it shouldnt, since stretch both sides is enabled. C. Inventory. All inventory needs to be reworked. Veteren SL users (like me, from beta) are stuck with loading contents and 'still downloading inventory' problems, unrelated to the amount of bandwith a user has (I have a 1.5mbps down/768 kbps up DSL connection and I still dont download inventory fast). D. More inventory organizational tools needed, badly. I have to usually set aside 1-2 hours of my playing time to organize my inventory, it simply gets so messy and cluttered, that everything is simply impossible to find. We *need* to be able to have fully-functional multiple item selection in object contents as well as avitar inventory, fully functional meaning that I can actually select a column of inventory with the shift key, or multiple individual items with the ctrl key, and move them to different folders, delete them (already doable to a point), and drag them out of inventoy. E. More confirmation messages. THis simply needs to be done, I mean, really, it needs to, there are too many times where Ive done something that was potentially dangerous to my creations without a confirmation message, letting me know the consequences of my action BEFORE I take that action. IMHO, this should be done soon, as some of these can actually be considered bugs in the UI, rather then suggestions to make the UI look and function better. -Chris 
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Mac Beach
Linux/OS X User
Join date: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 458
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09-02-2003 19:04
Why are there two threads for the same thing?
By the way, when I tried to post to this earlier from the Features Update section it said I wasn't authorized. Maybe this is related to two thread somehow?
Anyhow....I'm looking forward to the IM interface. I had posted a request for this a couple weeks ago, sounds like it was already in the works. Is this going to be an SL only IM? I'd still cast a vote for tying it to something like Jabber so it could be dual purpose. I understand that using an existing IM such as MSN, ICQ, AOL etc would probably involve some licensing issues that would be undesirable. As far as I know Jabber can be used for free. My own brief experiments with it indicate that some of the Jabber servers also cross communicate with the other IM servers as well, so in theory, a Jabber user could IM with a MSN user. I've only tinkered with it for an hour or so, I may be missing some finer points.
Also for the Apple users, there is the built-in iChat interface which is pretty darned attractive. It is crosslinked with AIM, so that I can use it to sign on as an AOL user or as a .Mac user (gee I really like that product name for some reason). Again I have no idea what the deal is between AOL and Apple, nor what would be involved in tying SL to that somehow. Sure would be handy though.
As far as the user interface enhancements, I look forward to seeing them. I can't get over the extremely long negative posts already out there when we don't even know what the changes are yet.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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09-03-2003 05:47
Where did my post go? Oh wait its in the other thread. This is confusing. Could one of the Lindens merge the two threads or something.
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Dave Zeeman
Master Procrastinator
Join date: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 1,025
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09-03-2003 12:13
I wrote my 1.2 thread before this forum even came to life. Then it was moved to this forum, which wasn't alive, and nobody could see it. Now the forum is alive and the obligatory Linden "forum welcome wagon" has sorta split our main thread in 2. Just post here, I wasn't really talking about linden-suggested features, I was just suggesting my own.
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Jack Digeridoo
machinimaniac
Join date: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1,170
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09-03-2003 12:23
From: someone That the UI isnt contained in a seperate thread then the viewer, right now, the UI lags when the vlewer lags. [/option]
This is by biggest pet peeve right now. I hate waiting for the pie menu to appear, and i hate it even more when I hear like 3 beeps and it never appears or it automatically selects Goto...
I'd also like to see prim alignment tools so I dont have to copy/paste 3 numbers for each prim that I want to align.
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Grim Lupis
Dark Wolf
Join date: 11 Jul 2003
Posts: 762
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09-03-2003 13:20
From: someone Originally posted by Jack Digeridoo I'd also like to see prim alignment tools so I dont have to copy/paste 3 numbers for each prim that I want to align. Jack, use shift-drag to copy a prim, then ctrl-z will automatically align it with the original. (By shift-drag, I mean hold down the shift key and drag one of the positioning arrows. This creates a copy of the original prim and moves it along the axis that you're dragging. If you want it perfectly aligned with the original, you then hit ctrl-z and it sets the x,y,z coords to the same as the original.)
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Grim
"God only made a few perfect heads, the rest of them he put hair on." -- Unknown
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Nergal Fallingbridge
meep.
Join date: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 677
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09-03-2003 13:30
From: someone Originally posted by Grim Lupis Jack, use shift-drag to copy a prim, then ctrl-z will automatically align it with the original.
(By shift-drag, I mean hold down the shift key and drag one of the positioning arrows. This creates a copy of the original prim and moves it along the axis that you're dragging. If you want it perfectly aligned with the original, you then hit ctrl-z and it sets the x,y,z coords to the same as the original.) *Oooooh.* I didn't know about the Ctrl-Z combo. Everyone needs to post their hotkey combos here, and then I can put together a chart or something and put it into a notecard in SL. Good for noobs and not-so-noobs.
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Tiger Crossing
The Prim Maker
Join date: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 1,560
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09-03-2003 14:34
Control-Z (Undo) is very useful. Just remember to select the prim you want to undo a sizing, rotation, and/or movement. You can hit Control-Z quite a few times (not sure how many) to undo the last few motions you've done.
Note that it doesn't count changes based on your actions as much as it does on time. If you drag a prim around for a while, with just one click, hitting undo after you drop it may have several saved positions before you get back to the starting location.
Also remember to select the object you want to undo before hitting control-z. Each object has its own undo queue.
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Christopher Omega
Oxymoron
Join date: 28 Mar 2003
Posts: 1,828
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09-03-2003 15:37
From: someone Originally posted by Mac Beach I can't get over the extremely long negative posts already out there when we don't even know what the changes are yet. Eep! Sorry if I sounded a lil pissed off when I posted that, I just felt that an external IM client isnt what SL needs right now. I was just pointing out some key flaws that I personally loathed in the current interface  . No offence at all Mac  -Chris
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Bosozoku Kato
insurrectionist midget
Join date: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 452
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09-03-2003 15:55
I have to agree with Chris Omega about priorities. You don't want to know my personal opinion on IM apps, unless you're a seasoned sailor or U.S. Marine and can deal with the expletives.
I know Lindens are concentrating on, and putting the majority of resources into, the UI and servers -- but news about, umm, silly trinkets doesn't impress me in the least.
Of course this is just my opinion, without doubt there are others that eagerly await such a "feature". Myself, I'd rather see man hours spent improving and/or fixing the actual UI or servers.
Boso
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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09-03-2003 17:53
I hardly ever need to align stuff. I just use shift drag with an appropriate grid setup. For instance if you shift drag the default .5m cube on a .5m grid, all cubes created will be perfectly aligned.
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Jack Digeridoo
machinimaniac
Join date: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 1,170
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09-04-2003 07:28
From: someone on a .5m grid GRID! man i need to rtfm! thx for the tips guys 
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Dave Zeeman
Master Procrastinator
Join date: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 1,025
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09-04-2003 12:15
Every time I am building somthing precisely, I click the "snap to grid" checkbox at the top of the editing window. And then, you can change the grid constraints by hitting Ctrl + Shift + B. This makes it so that you can snap objects to move around a 1 meter grid or a .25 meter grid or event a .426 meter grid if you please! And they will always line up! (As long as you moved the original piece to snap to the grid).
Really I find this to be the most important building tool of all of them!
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Tiger Crossing
The Prim Maker
Join date: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 1,560
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09-04-2003 12:51
I love the grid.  I keep it set to .125 so that I can snap objects of quarter-meter increments together perfectly. It's the center of the object that snaps to the grid, not the edges. Important to remember when you first start using the grid. I do wish it was possible to lock an object's offset to the grid before moving it, though. Right now, twitching a prim in any direction jumps it's center to a grid point in that direction. If I need to position something (like a lip to a stair step) off the grid, then shift-drag it to make a copy, the copy jumps back onto the grid, losing my careful alignment. In most cases, that's how I'd want it to be, but perhaps they should make the Alt key change the behavior of the snap so that only the MOTION snaps, not the object. So if he grid is set to one meter increments, and I position a prim at meter 0.8... Then dragging it normally takes it to 2, then 3... Or dragging it with he Alt key held takes it to 1.8, then 2.8, etc. That would be SO useful for moving linked objects about!
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Cory Linden
Linden Lab Employee
Join date: 19 Nov 2002
Posts: 173
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09-04-2003 19:41
UI improvements are our absolutely top priority for 1.2. However, since this is already known, I wanted to use the concepts section to float some ideas that were being kicked around. While I'm a bit suprised by the <ahem> vehemence behind the feedback, feedback is what I was looking for. For the curious, we've currently been focusing on the improved map and finder for 1.1. Much of that work is designed to make it easier to find places, people, and things. Something that jumped out at me is that I'd really like a way to know when the next Havok 2 protest is going on so that I can log in and see it. A part of the magic of SL is the spontaneous gathering of the residents and being able to get alerted to it intrigued me. A little thinking on that (combined with a separate discussion on ways to improve communication with in world objects) led to the offline IM client. Regarding the UI (and some of the comments in the other thread), the new UI is closer to a redesign than a tweak on the current UI. We were extremely fortunate to have some very smart folks spend over a month just nailing down the functional design and have been using the last month to handle the aesthetic design issues. While most of the people reading the forums have mastered the ins and outs of the current UI we are confident that we can both improve the UI for our experts and make it far more accessible to new users. Regarding the inventory, please believe me when I say that it annoys me as much as it annoys you  ! We have a solution designed to remove that load and we will really try to get it into 1.2. The UI problem is another that we have a design solution for (it's actually a bit more involved than just sticking it on a separate thread, but that's a decent overall description). Some simulator performance increases are already in for 1.1 and will certainly try to add more for 1.2. Cory Linden
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Bel Muse
Registered User
Join date: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 388
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09-04-2003 21:00
Cory, I loved the features that you proposed in the concept article. And I think that getting better in-game/out-game communication is really a good thing. I realize that everyone has different ideas on priorities, but thats a different issue, IMHO. I like the proposed features, and think that SL will be easier to use and more enjoyable with them. Please get them in when you can 
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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09-05-2003 00:49
From: someone Originally posted by Cory Linden Regarding the inventory, please believe me when I say that it annoys me as much as it annoys you ! We have a solution designed to remove that load and we will really try to get it into 1.2.
w000t no more pulling textures out of boxes for an hour! Among other things From: someone Some simulator performance increases are already in for 1.1 and will certainly try to add more for 1.2.
Cory, I lurves you  There's nothing more limiting and outright annoying than the speed with which a few extra avs will lag the game - to the point where it becomes unplayable. If this can get the av limit per sim to raise a little, or even if it just makes the game handle slightly smaller gatherings a bit better, it will definitely be the greatest thing ever to happen in SL. I love you devs. I really do. If you guys ever come to Portugal I will throw you a massive party =)
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Oneironaut Escher
Tokin White Guy
Join date: 9 Jul 2003
Posts: 390
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09-06-2003 22:56
I really don't like the out of game IM communication idea for the same reasons that I don't want an offline builder.
I think this would really lead to lots of absentee people making the world seem more barren.
Once again, this type of thing might be useful and warranted once we have greater population numbers.
I think the IM alerts to crowds and whatnot might be a good idea. However, direct IM contact I think would be counterproductive to the community. I'm against anything that has someone deciding NOT to log in.
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Mac Beach
Linux/OS X User
Join date: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 458
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09-07-2003 07:36
From: someone Originally posted by Oneironaut Escher I really don't like the out of game IM communication idea for the same reasons that I don't want an offline builder.
I think this would really lead to lots of absentee people making the world seem more barren.
Once again, this type of thing might be useful and warranted once we have greater population numbers.
I think the IM alerts to crowds and whatnot might be a good idea. However, direct IM contact I think would be counterproductive to the community. I'm against anything that has someone deciding NOT to log in. That's an interesting point of view. I'm not sure how many people it would apply to. I know it doesn't apply to me. I start out with a to-do list when I first hop on the net each morning (or whatever part of the day I first hop on the net). That to-do list usually gets longer rather than shorter as the day goes on. Unfortunately, most of my to-do list does not consist of SL activities. Also unfortunately, none of my computers have the horsepower needed to make running SL all day while I do other things a practicality. I'm sure there are other people who do this, but I just can't. I usually reserve SL for the end of my day. It is more recreation than work and is a nice way to wind down for the day. The existence of an IM would PROBABLY get me in-world more rather than less, and it would certainly allow me to more easily be in-world when there were events I want to participate in or people I want to "be" with in SL. I'm not very good at keeping any eye on calendars and schedules of any kind, but I'm much better at responding to the occasional "Hey come check this out!" It would also allow for easier communication with people who simply CAN'T be on, for example because they are away from their DSL connection, traveling with a wimpy laptop, or, um, at work. Although I don't think the Lindens have this in mind yet, I'd like it if the client had communications with the non-Linden world too. The ability to send and receive messages to AIM, ICQ, or Jabber clients would be a great marketing tool I think. We all know people who just can't use SL yet for one reason or another. Staying in touch with them via a generic IM client is a great reminder that SL is the first thing they want to try when their situation improves. As for those who think the IM idea is OK, but have other wishes at a higher priority, I can understand this. But the Lindens have demonstrated that they can walk and chew gum at the same time. Even if an IM isn't the top priority thing right now, it should certainly (IMHO) be on the short list.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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09-24-2003 23:45
Personally, I think an offline IM client is a great idea. I currently have IMs set to go to my email when I'm not online. It's handy when someone has a question or needs help with something they bought from me. It would be very nice to have these go to an IM client instead so I can respond right away. One suggest I'd like to make is the ability to have privacy settings. Someone might want to have it on just to receive IM's from scripts and not be visible for chat.
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Jonathan VonLenard
Resident Hippo
Join date: 8 May 2003
Posts: 632
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09-25-2003 06:51
From: someone Originally posted by Oneironaut Escher I really don't like the out of game IM communication idea for the same reasons that I don't want an offline builder.
I think this would really lead to lots of absentee people making the world seem more barren.
Once again, this type of thing might be useful and warranted once we have greater population numbers.
I think the IM alerts to crowds and whatnot might be a good idea. However, direct IM contact I think would be counterproductive to the community. I'm against anything that has someone deciding NOT to log in. I really think you underestimate our community. SL'ers are dedicated. We sit at work all day chatting in the forum just waiting till we get home to log on. The Im function would allow us to more easily chat with each other while at work  I am sure it will not discourage people from logging in. JV
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"Now that we're here, it's so far away All the struggle we thought was in vain And all the mistakes, one life contained They all finally start to go away And now that we're here, it's so far away And I feel like I can face the day And I can forgive And I'm not ashamed to be The Person that I am today"
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