A Proposal

I propose the following:

A. Commercial Events may be listed on the events calendar for a cost of L$25.00 per event.
a. Commercial Events are defined as any event on property that is used for commercial purposes (malls, stores, clubs, casinos, etc), where any items will be sold or a cover charge is required.
B. The monies collected for commercial events’ posting will be used as the only source of funding for educational and non-commercial events at their current funding levels, eliminating the need for continued Linden support.
a. Educational events are defined as classes for building, marketing, newbies, etc, where money is not charged for the information, items are not sold or are not held on commercial properties.
b. Non-Commercial events are defined as any event held on non-commercial property, where monies are not collected for a cover charge and items are not sold.

C. Please let me know of any feedback, positive, negative or creative. I want to flesh out this proposal before I submit it for official voting.

Not a bad idea, but I think there should be an in world classified section, seperate from the event listing. Same deal with a weekly fee and all, but a seperate section, with lots of categories.

I like the way you have summed it up. It's pretty simple and workable.

I agree we need both events listings where consciously commercial events can take place and a classifieds section where land for rent or clothing for sale, etc. can be litsed.

I agree, an inworld purchasable classifieds section is also needed. I wanted to limit my proposal mainly to the issues I raised, but will be happy to add the classified area as well. If someone would like to flesh out that area, it would be appreciated.

My concern is who will hold educational events if it has to be seperated from business land as your proposal suggests? Don't you think business owners can teach well? Why is it people think education has to be free anyhow? In the real world a good education comes with a price. Why do we have this anti-business attitude in sl demanding it stay far away from educational institutions? Events should be in their catagory, I agree, but why are we insisting educational events be on non-commercial land? That goes beyond categories. Now we are talking about more government to go to every event, make sure there are no signs or other advertisements. Besides, who cares who is willing to do the job? And why do we care if they have stores near the class? Are we trying to protect newbies from stores? If so you better close SL because sl is a huge store. I want to see everyone offering classes at things they are best, I don't care if they advertize their store or even sell things to the students to be part of the class if it's reasonable and needed for the class. If you make clothing and want to teach people how to steal your business, you should be able to do it on your store land and offer a texture for $1L required for the class. People buy books for class in the real world, people buy supplied for classes. I think people even pay tutors in the real world, eee gads. So... my point is we need to stop this attitude of never paying a single L for a class or items for a class just because LL supports it. If LL support means we stiffle the class instuctors I say end all LL support, it's clearly not attacting instuctors anyways. It's my belief you value what you pay for much more than something free. Example: You are given a flyer on the street about a store, you'll trash it most likely, but if you buy a catalog you'll read and use it because it cost you something. The best educational institutions in this country charge a huge sum to attend their classes. I bcan tell you one thing for sure, not many people are willing to take LL up on the $500L offer to teach a 1 hour class, so it's clearly not an issue at this point, there are almost no classes at all, if there are they are basic building etc. The restrictions on educational events should be limited to a teacher on site teaching something people are willing to learn, even if they have to pay $1L for a class item, book, whatever. If they can't afford the $1L I'm sure the teacher will give them a free item.

Before we put major restrictions on what should be in a catagory we need to be careful not to stiffle what we are trying to encourage. It's my opinion the catagories aren't as important as we already have filters, add a filter or two. But we do need to look at why SL has a different mentality than the real world concerning these issues facing sl. The events calander is all about advertising I think we all will agree on that point, so now it's down to who are we willing to allow to advertise on it. But as we do we must understand that the events board is what makes SL what it is. If you want to know why SL is Tringo central just look at the event board. I'm glad to see there are people concerned with these issues. Hopefully the best ideas will float.

Kevn,

I am not sure where you got the idea that I am anywhere near being anti-business. I own Night Mountain and have written several posts slamming the anti-business minority. What you miss in the proposal is a way to appease the anti-commerce minority, while also weaning from the Linden support. If they have to rely on the good graces of the business community to support eductional events, instead of the Lindens, then they will throw their support behind the business community.

If you want to hold an education event on commercial property, under this proposal, you would have to pay the L$25 event posting fee for commercial events. If you don't want to pay the L$25 event posting fee, then you hold the educational event on non-commercial land and you get monies from the fund supported by the commercial event listing fees.

I thought it was pretty simple and a rather diplomatic approach. I don't think I was or am wrong.

The $25L isn't the issue to me, it's getting more people interested in teaching classes. It's not happening now and I don't think charging those willing to teach $25L because they teach on their land would change that problem for the better. I'm trying to figure out a way to get knowledge to those seeking it. I don't care if the store owners want to teach a class in a store even and I'm even willing to pay to see it happen. As long as the class is taught I'm happy. Maybe we should tax every user to cover any costs involved, I pay property taxes that support my local schools. The catagory called "educational" should be open to all no matter where they happen to be. I really hope they make tons of money from increased sales due to higher traffic numbers pushing them higher in the search list, I hope the get dwell, I hope the students buy stuff from them. This will encourage more classes by highly SL educated people. Maybe we could figure out a way to make it benefit businesses rather than insisting the store owner leave his store to teach. I don't know the answers, just throwing ideas in the air hoping any good ideas stick to something lol

I can here the cries now from the anti-commerce minority, "Hold a class in a store/mall/casino? Why that's a bait and switch. Its commerce disguised as education." I guess you are still missing the point of the whole proposal, which is to appease the anti-commerce minority while the pro-commerce majority gets what it really wants: freedome to post commercial events on the events calendar, while also wheening everyone off the public dole of Linden support.

The fee paid for commercial events is a tax to pay for educational events at non-commercial events, as long as those event holders give up Linden support.

I'm not for appeasement of this gang. They've ruled the roost and they've got to make way now. Let them buy land and make art events on it and put them on the calendar under arts. Or shut up.

As I think of it, the idea of "non-profit land" just doesn't make too much sense. There won't be very much of it. And if businesses are to supoprt the arts, they're going to want to have the activities on their own land to get the dwell and shopping traffic.

I'm trying to think of how to address Kevn's concerns that there aren't enough teachers. There aren't. If this system worked, there'd always be a class on building in each quarter of the 24/7 calendar, but there hardly is one per day, even.

The only way I guess is to have businesses pay such event organizers. anshechung.com says they do this for their hired event organizers or event hosts -- don't know how that really works -- has anyone benefited from it.

I'm not crazy about dividing things up into commercial vs non-commercial, even under the prarameters Timmy outlines.

As long as there is dwell in this game, there is no such thing as a non-commercial event, unless it's held on Linden land.

coco

You know what Timmy - your constant posts about this so called 'anti commerce minority' are getting old as hell and doing nothing but causing divisions where there were none to begin with.

Do us a favour and knock it on the head plz.

Secondly your plan has one major drawback - a lot of places have malls with shops that do not belong to the actual landowner so therefore the landowner makes nothing from said event even if people spend money in the malls on their land.

As I've said before - content should be left to Linden Labs to decide, at BEST you can only define a commercial event as one that puts $L in the pocket of the landowner.

Don't give up on this, Timmy.

There is indeed an anti-commerce minority and one of the tools of their trade is to scream "division" and "wrecker and splitter" (just like the Bolsheviks used to do) when you point out that they exist as a vocal but distinct minority and that yes, there is a split between them and the rest of the players.

It's their failure to see that and understand that which makes them so difficult to deal with.

They'd like to see themselves as "the game" or "the community" or " the world".

But they aren't, they're merely a minority viewpoint within a huge diverse game.

There indeed always were these divisions, they continue, and they'll only get sharper with time as LL like other entities has to make the historic choices between capitalism and socialism. They'll have to face those choices in spades on the issue of open source.

Some people are socialists by nature, by training, by nationality, by place of origin -- it's their country's system, or what most of the intelligentsia buys into as an ideology.

Most people are not socialists, however, at least not by choice.

The world is not made up of socialists, although the intelligentsias of some countries have socialism as their mind meme.

The task in a game like this is to get people to see the fundamental flaw in the socialist belief system: the notion of scarcity.

In this notion, every time I make money, I'm "taking it away" from other people. It's always a zero-sum game, and there's never any value added.

This belief is held as ardently as any religious belief and it is impossible to pry their cold, hard, dead fingers away from this belief lol.

So you can only walk around them and point out to others still confused on this issue that buying and selling land adds value to the game.

This group was brought together by Robin Linden to improve events for EVERYONE not the commercialists or the socialits or any other IST group that your paranoid mind can come up with.

EVERYONE

Keep repeating that til' it sinks in.

Sox, this proposal is not in the name of the Events Working Group. Where did you get the idea that it was? Only because I brought it up in that group and you were one of the vocal minority who screamed "foul".

Actually try and pay attention to what I am trying to accomplish with this proposal or maybe you are paying attention and are scared of the results. Either way, I am looking out of the best interest of everyone.

Coco,

I understand your reservations in doing so, but the reality is, there is already the divide and for better or worse, the Lindens have supported that divide. I am just trying to work within the framework they have given us.

Prokofy,

Maybe appeasement is the wrong word. Not sure. I am giving something in order to gain more, with this proposal.

This proposal does not prohibit educational events on commercial property, it only prohibits educational events on commercial property from receiving monies from the commercial posting fee/tax. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough on this point and I apologize.

As the amount in the fund will be strictly limited by how many commercial events are posted, the anti-commerce minority will need to start supporting commercial events so as there are enough funds to disburse for education events on commercial properties.

The divisions have been here and will always be. It nothing new. I am only pointing out the fact there is an anti-commerce minority who are very vocal and are able to sway the minds of the Lindens, as was admitted by Robin Linden herself. Just because you want to deny the existance of such a group, does not mean they do not exist.

As long as the anti-commerce minority has a voice, so will I.



You point out a false drawback. The landowner does receive monies, either through revenue share, straight out rental of the land or dwell. Case in point, I currently am working on a development on land I do not own. The landowner agreed to a revenue share agreement instead of flat rent. The landowner keeps all dwell associated with the build and any other activities. Yes, the dwell is miniscule, but it is monies disbursed to him.

What the heck is commercial land???

I don't know how on Earth that could be enforced, and the Lindens want something automated.

Actually, I'd like some sort of calendar for long-term "events," such as Numbakalla, for example, that is separate from the mininute-by minute event calendar. The, for example, the a place that ALWAYS has a Tringo game going or ALWAYS has a dance host present could post in a more appropriate place.

And the problem is - you've never received Dwell incentive - if you had you'd know you dont make money off it. Dwell Incentive is EXACTLY what it says, it's an incentive to you the landowner to create something or hold events so that other people take pleasure from and visit it.

And the thing I want to deny is the divisions that you propogate which do NOTHING but cause pointless arguments among those who want basically the same thing.

Case in point - I own a sim and a club on that sim - if I hold an event in that club then people I let vendor spaces to could make money from people attending said event even though I, as the landowner, dont make a single L$

Your talking about DWELL as being commercial which makes EVERY event in Second Life a commercial event.

You know what? I'm tired of reading your drivel.

Get something STRAIGHT Mr Night - If I had a problem with you then you'd be 100% certain of that fact and at that meeting I didnt scream anything apart from complaints about Proks bad mouth to a couple of the women there.

You think I'm scared of you & your ideas? What you do will affect me not ONE jot and do you know why? Because my 'business' has been in the top 20 most popular places in Second Life with OR without events for over 6 months.

THATS because I know what it takes here to build up and maintain a sucessful venture Mr Knight, because I know the flaws in this system that KILL small events stone cold dead because I've been at the bottom of the pile trying to fight my way up. I'd like to try and make it so that EVERYONE who wants to hold an event here,commercial or otherwise, has an equal chance of sucess, so if you'd like to rail against that then hell yes - bring it on.

In a conversation we had in world not a week ago you told me you had ONE event a week,in that same conversation you were not even aware that some places put on 10/12 events a DAY Mr Knight. Now I believe everyone COULD bring something to this discussion if people like you and Prokofky would stop talking utter bilge about minorities and majorities, you have NO clue who or what constitutes a minority or its opposite in Second Life - none - and neither does anyone else.

I got my start here because I was smart enough to listen and learn from someone who had already acheived the things I wanted - Jenna Fairplay, maybe you should do the same.

Don't claim to know something you don't. How many times do I have to remind you Sox, I own Night Mountain (to which you have been) and all of the land associated with it. Your "drawback" is still a false drawback because you stated the landowner receives nothing. I pointed out the landowner does receive dwell, even if it is a small amount. And no, you are trying to make every event a commercial event by declaring dwell as the determining factor. I have not done that in my proposal.

^^^^Please note

I guess I am confused by all these issues.. I hate to admit.
I also hate to admit that I wouldn't even be posting here if it wasn't for SL being down (again and still, formally or informally).
However, admissions aside.

What is the difference if an event is done on commercial or noncommercial land? It is the event that counts.

Every week I do a tally for Touchstone on what educational events are being held... where... by whom... how often... days most popular... times most popular... sims most popular...you catch the drift. For those of you who don't know, Touchstone is a group headed by Jase Byrne to promote education through teaching and learning in SL.

I do not count events that appear to be for the promotion of a place or person. If the event is listed as something like, "Come and visit my store and see all the wonderful things in it and by the way, I will show you how to open a box." However, if the primary focus is on teaching, "Come and take my course in how to run a successful business, location choice, and advertise at Business X," it counts. Why should there be a charge on holding a class like this in a business district when it would not elsewhere in SL? And, wouldn't a business location be perfect for a class of this type?

To me, I don't like the idea of charging for classes..anywhere. A new person has a limited number of funds to deal with. Sometimes a person in the game for awhile has a limited number of funds. For me.. the Linden support will help with some of the costs of putting on my classes. I recently put a couple of tutorials together and it was close to L$400 just for the textures. I have a couple of others in the works that will be much more expensive. I am on a basic plan and it takes a long time to accrue that kind of money. So, when I do get my classes going, I will welcome the Linden Support. (I haven't had enough time for Tringo lately that usually helps fund some of my educational and group projects.) And, I am not going to raid the family coffers to go through some outside money changer program to pay for my educational or group endeavors within the game.

Some people who would like to teach don't own land. The current rules have them tied to group land and it has caused confusion. Some business owners may want to teach but that is the only land they have. So, they should be penalized for that being their focus? You may say, there is Linden land where you can teach and it is free. Well, take it from a person who had a hard time getting around in SL, most of those stages are pretty tough to sit down in. Most are circular and have the landmark at the back instead of the front of the stage. (Geez, I hate to have to admit to being clutzy on top of my confusion as to what teh big deal is about all this.) If you have classes in a sandbox, you are at risk of getting blown up by fireworks, runover by a dune buggy, or shot by people running around with guns and push guns.

I do not own a business in town. I rarely even shop. I do love education and teaching. And, I don't have the money or foresee getting money that is adequate to the things that I want to do. I love to hold educational competitions. Some people hold that there should not be Linden support for those, that the competition monies should come from the participants, that goods should be given instead of prize money. In my view, some of the prize money has gotten out of hand and in the old system, people were claiming contests when all they wanted to do was get paid to host it. However... again... if you are on basic and you don't have a wide network of friends who want to give you goods to give as prizes or aren't the most popular person in the world where people give you things just because they like you, you are at a disadvantage.

I think from the, admittedly few, forums I have read, that people are getting too involved with the roothairs on the trees and are starting to mash all the issues together. I think many need to step back and look at the base goals of the SL experience. I read some of these forums and feel like a sociology experiment.

In terms of Event listing. I like the idea of having filters or separate calendars for education-based items vs business-related items vs entertainment. Of course there will always be cross-over, but there is a larger focus of one over the other in every event. If I am tired of building, I can flip to a calendar that will have classes or activites or store openings without having to decide whether or not I am going to have to pay or guess at a location.

So, if this is too simplistic, without the grasp of the issues... I warned you. I just don't get it. It surely must be more simple than these forums lead me to believe. We need to get out of the morass of tree root hairs and into the treetops looking at the sun. Without the sun, the tree hairs wouldn't exist.

(I bet you are wishing that SL would get up and running ....lol.... )

Ta da!

ITS THE EVENT THAT COUNTS.

Sounds like a good idea