Open Source Box Office Released to SL!

Yumi - using the existing LSL toolset we have, what would you have done differently to create a creative solution (besides just 'fixing' the existing one)? Would you have architected something alltogether different?

And I have to ask.... why didn't you enter the contest yourself? It sounds like you've got a lot of ideas to contribute

Excuse me, Yumi. We're here thanking those who participated in a contest and congratulating the winner. And you have decided this is the appropriate time and place to post to belittle them and their work and to explain why you didn't enter? This is Event Discussion. Perhaps you need to start a thread in Scripting Tips if you'd like to talk about how to optimize code.

EDIT: I don't delete posts for a variety of reasons. If I did, this one would be gone by now. Anyway, to hell with it. Forget I said anything. You kids go ahead and piss in the pool all you like.

I'm sorry. I'm honestly not trying to attack the winner. I've just had round after round of frustration since I arrived in SL, and I've wound up annoying people before and I always regret it. I'm sorry. The given script is good - it's just not the big innovation I was hoping that the contest would result in, and that I thought it was intended to result in. I mean, L$90000? I was thinking that'd be for something on the scale of proving Fermat's Last Theorem.

The reason why I didn't enter the contest was precisely because I couldn't think of an elegant way of doing these things - in particular, the "safe ejection" business, but also the other issues. The situation stung in particular because I once spent several weeks working on a (different) project - and then had to throw it away when I realised that because of the 16-detection limit on sensors, it couldn't be reliable - or if it was, it would be horribly slow.. and then several weeks on another project which also got thrown away for similar reasons, because of the memory limitation problem. So solutions to these would have been really valuable. Finding that an entry that didn't deal with these issues was considered acceptable was therefore a double whammy

By way of apology I'll mention the fixes I was describing. When the sensor is rezzed, it could use object_rez to pick up its key and listen to that key only, avoiding a hacker being able to talk on the sensor channel. Also, there are two listen handlers in the running state of the box office - I suspect that's a mistake. Instead of having SENSOR_SETUP in the sensor object, it could be given to it by the box office when it's rezzed (although I'm told that giving objects is a bit messed up in the current version?)

Like anything else that is open source, it is possible to work on the script to perfect it or to make it customized to fit. We wanted to have this open source so that people could do that. The 90k prize was raised to ensure that scripters would be interested in participating and to acknowledge that a scripter might be open-sourcing code that he or she used in other commercial ventures. We wanted to make sure that the scripter felt valued and compensated for that. It is, additionally, a measure of how much the community wanted something like this in place.

I've asked Mr. Newell to respond to event hosts' questions on how to use the box office and will be looking to operate and demonstrate the box office to those interested quite soon. I will post that in special attractions and events. Perhaps scripters with other ideas to contribute to the prize winning entry might serve as specialists to help set up and customize box offices for folks who can't or won't do it themselves. Your comments are valuable, Yumi. I appreciate your apology for tone also.

Any event hosts who have questions on how to operate the box office (or scripters who have noticed issues, for that matter) are encouraged to ask questions in a respectful manner. These questions should be asked with the goal of better understanding and utilizing the tool. Asking the scripter to defend choices he made isn't meeting that goal. Asking questions about how to use the box office, or perhaps suggesting alternative code folks could use is most helpful. Offering services (to customize or help set up the box office) would also be helpful. Cheers. ~ Persephone

well done FFRC and Peter for creating more options for people, and potentially helping take events to the next level. We shall see how it actually pans out of course, but from my perspective more choice as to how one runs an event is only a good thing. Glad you are ignoring the griping. Onward and upward.

I'm not really meaning to gripe: it's just unfortunate that the contest invitation was not worded in a way that made it clear that a script of this type would be acceptable. (I would have thought the low number of entries would have indicated that.) It feels like JEVN all over again.

Please don't attack Persephone, she's done very much. She's an officer off FFRC, and invests quite some time in making it good. Not just now and then, but regularly, putting together agendas for the weekly meetings, being there, following through the agenda, etc.

You have no idea how much commitment and energy a thing like that takes until you have done it.

I can only congratulate Persephone for what she's done so far, and I hope the FFRC will grow even bigger and bigger, so it can raise the overall quality of events and the number of 'rich content events'. If it does so, we all win: me, you, everyone in SL.



No it's not. I think it HAD to be named something. It could've been named 'event types we would like to see more' or 'events that we think help SL be better', but boy, that is such a sucky marketing name. 'rich content' is a very good and compact phrase.

You're free and welcome to invent a new term, like 'Premium Culture Content' or 'SuperDuper Content', noone will object, even though if someone wanted, could label you egoistical for that.

No, I don't win. And anyone not sharing her view of what rich content doesn't win either.

I won't congratulate her for soemthing she chooses to do of her own accord that doesnt affect me or a large portion of SL.

I personally hope the FFRC dies, and quickly. Any (even proposed) definition of rich content needs to be killed off. And for your information, I can call the sex clubs 'rich content' if I wanted to.. they don't hold the copyright, just an opinion.

Okay, look. There are many things, RL or SL that do NOT affect you. Or 'the large portion of the population'. At least not directly. That doesn't make any of their accomplishments smaller.

Though, wait a minute. You said it doesn't affect you. Then you go ranting about how it NEGATIVELY affects you. So.. make up your mind!



It's a shame you think that way.

Of course you can call anything rich content, you like. Noone's gonna harrass, arrest you, etc. for that.
You know what? You can call the sky red and the rivers purple. No problem.

Had these forums not be censored, I could present even more ideas of what you could call what

Somehow I think any more 'debate' with you is pointless. Don't worry, you have your posts here and people will read them: so, I guess, goal accomplished, your point of view is known.

There might be limits in SL that cannot be worked around, sadly, you just have to try the best.

About griefers: I've read that they can firebomb a parcel or crash a sim. If they want their way, a box office script won't make a difference.

OpenOffice (former StarOffice) or Netscape/Mozilla developers got millions of dollars altogether in the past, but that doesn't prevent 'average' people from contributing for free. If they think it's worth it, they'll add to it. Though many will try to fill their OWN needs, adding stuff THEY need, and then sharing it.

Its not a shame I think that way. Any group that defines 'rich' content, passively or actively, should die quickly. Period. Especially one that wants to make it easier for leeching event producers to make money without more effort.

Well.. sure. What I guess I'm getting at is this.

Suppose you see the following two posters:

Poster A: Contest! Make a real-life lightsaber and win US$10.

Poster B: Contest! Make a real-life lightsaber and win US$10 million.

Ok, snap quiz, first reaction: which of these contests is asking for a lightsaber that projects a blade?

The understanding I had was that the high prize was precisely to encourage someone to find a way to work around the limits I described, to discover something new and revolutionary in SL. Now I find out that in fact this wasn't required, and a "best try with things as they are" was acceptable, naturally I feel a bit cheated (and, I should add, so did some other scripters who I talked to).

I mean, think how it would feel if you'd worked in a research lab, gone through several different phases of a design process to try and make a real bladed lightsaber IRL, concluded that it was impossible, and then had someone win the $10m content with one that didn't do that? If I look over my desk carefully I might find the sheet of diagrams I drew trying to determine a way to sense all avatars in an area with proven reliability..

Had it been made clear that this type of "best try" was acceptable I think there would have been far more entries, and I would also think that the low number of entries that there were would have signalled to the organisers that there was a misunderstanding.

This is what I posted back on February 17 in the scripting tips forum. This should address your question, Yumi, as I specifically mention eject systems here. I took a vote to prolong the contest (though people knew about it for 3 months) but the vote didn't pass. The FFRC operates as an open democracy, so we abided by that decision.



As for Jonas, it isn't just a small group that determines for itself what rich content is or something elitist like that. It is a group who decide to come together to help content makers. Anyone can join. Anyone can see what is discussed. It's about as populist as an organization can get. You wanna change it? come be a part and share YOUR views of what rich content is. fine.

I can see, Jonas, how you would not be impacted by the box office. In the last year you've hosted two events, (in this account anyway) both on March 16, and they were D/s meet and greets for masters and subs. Of course you don't need a box office for that. And I can see how you WOULD do that "for the love" *titters*

Those kinds of events are just fine. They don't need additional support because the host is basically having a support group. That is much much different from having a rock concert. If you think everything in SL would be free, then that's one thing. If you feel that event producers should be the only ones in SL working for free, then you have a bias. There is a huge difference between support groups and other kinds of organized events. If you were paying for an island, spending time to rehearse and stage a musical, and wanted the full "feel" of broadway, a Box Office would make perfect sense. For a Master/sub get together, of course, it doesn't. Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks. Cheers. ~ Perse

Actually, it illustrates my point:



Note the highlighted sections. This is a clear statement that the intention was that the winner should contain "clever hacks" to bypass the limitations of SL. The winning script is good and well written, but it doesn't contain any "hacks"; it just uses the standard methods and accepts their limitations. Again, people may have been deterred from entering from the fact they had not come up with "clever hacks" to avoid these limitations, especially since you stated you were "relying on" them - this, at least to me, gives the implication that if those "clever hacks" did not "come up" the contest would be moot, since un-bypassed the limitations would render a box office unworkable.

Ejection is not the only issue. Detection of people at the event is another. The existing script can "miss" avatars at a busy event. Now, again, I'm not attacking the scripter for that fact, but if 100% reliable detection of people at the event wasn't required for a box office to qualify, then why wasn't this fact mentioned in the original requirements specification?

Let me state up front that I don't speak for Peter, but after he beat my entry (/sigh), we collaborated to make the current system even better. More specifically, he was able to adapt my ideas on sensor logic to the final version. That said, I'd like to address Yumi's concerns about the sensor. I apologize in advance for the length of this post.


I think you are mistaken. If you do look at the main code of the main box office, there is sensor logic there. The use of the external sensor is not required to use the system. In fact, the box office gives several handy directional commands to aim the sensor in the configuration notecard, so that you can put the box office in the best place (like the entry or parcel tp point) and still cover a wide area.


Your point about the difficulty in editing the route in the sensor is very valid; it does take off when you rez it before you can edit the notecard which stores the route. I'll IM Mr. Newell and encourage him to remove the example notecard from the external sensor such that it won't head off into the sunset before the owner configures a location grid appropriate to their venue.

From memory, I think Mr. Newell set the default to a 20 x 20 default grid … and it will come right back to the box office again where you rezzed it…but it is transparent (so that it does not distract the guests), so you may have to enable that view-transparency client feature to grab the wild sensors on your lot =). In my version, I had a ‘die’ command to derez the sensor… I will get back to you if I find a better way to wrangle wild sensors.


The route notecard for the external sensor needs to be in the external sensor itself. This enables the owner to run multiple external sensors simultaneously, each on a unique route, covering a wide variety of venue situations, from large to huge.



A single, static sensor can have this problem. This is exactly the reason why the external sensors were developed. They move about the venue on their routes, buzzing back to the box office to dump their detected avatar payload before going out again (I like the honeybee analogy here). In addition to just 'sensing', they can also listen to what was being said, and include those in the avatar list as well. In my ingame testing at 6 different, very popular sims, a group of 4 sensors found all the avatars in the entire sim in under 1 minute. (One test was when the sim was full).


I don't see how a group of griefers can have every new arrival banned. The ban works on the avatar's unique key. After reviewing the code, I don’t see how the box office can be tricked into banning other guests. If someone has access to the script in a deployed box office, well then, yes it could happen. But a properly set up box office, correctly permed, should not have this liability. I would be interested in having you elaborate on your scenario; you can IM me ingame or send me a private message on the forum.


Here, we have to be realistic about what can be done. LL has given us a set of tools, not perfect, not ideal...but they are all we have short of hiring a Linden to come to your events and play policeperson (and to that, I think we know the odds of that happening =).

That said, this is a box office, designed to help event hosts and promoters manage their customers. It is not a security system, but has some tools to help the owner eliminate freeloaders. It can work on ground or skybox. It is as good as any ingame, LL TOS system can be.


Good point! I would encourage Mr. Newell to provide a notecard option to be able to name each event and have the appropriate card delivered as each is activated. That would take, oh, about 5 minutes to change =)

And, maybe your observations for improvement are to the point of why FFRC insisted that the entry be open source. Those with scripting skills can change it! We can make it better, we can add to it as LL gives us new customer management commands… and not have to buy the next version of the box office!

Yumi, we did the best we could. We aren't perfect human beings. I certainly am not. I was trying the best I could to come up with a solution for a group of the community that has been essentially, in my view, slated for demolition. I was trying to give people hope for another model. We have, to some small degree, I think, succeeded. I hear your criticism. It appears it was a misunderstanding. I asked any scripters who had questions to talk to me in world. I specifically asked for a box office that could work like a rl box office. I hear your assertion that this one might miss avatars. Peter says it can sense over 100 avatars. (Leonard, posting simultaneously with me, answered that one actually it looks like. TYVM Leonard for your post!! =)) If you have questions for Peter, you are welcome to attend a demo of the box office and ask it. If you are mad that you didn't enter the contest, sorry, but worse things have happened to folks. So you didn't win $90,000L. Oh well. You didn't lose anything didja?

So the box office isn't 100% perfect, according to you. Maybe it isn't. It is open source and can be improved. Peter has, even though his original script won it, improved it twice already and offered the improved scripts free of charge.

I feel now that you are beating a dead horse. What do you want? you want me to apologize for trying to help people? haha. k. If that'd make you feel better. I"m sorry I didn't word the contest phrasing in such a way that you would have entered. We did the best we could. Cheers and no hard feelings.

It does actually die if it reaches the end of its route.. the problem was that when I tested it on my plot, the sensor's first point sent it flying towards Linden protected land, where it hit the script barrier and froze. I got a bunch of them auto-returned today actually



The route notecard needs to be in the sensor when it starts running - however, the main box office rezzes the sensors, so it could llGiveInventory the notecard to the sensor as it's created, enabling the notecard templates to be stored in the box office. The existing version seems to have only a single sensor and only rezzes that (that I could see, anyway..)



However, this isn't guaranteed. From what I've seen (and I might be wrong), for any given static list of sensor points, there is at least one arrangement of avatars in the sim such that not all of them are detected.



It's to do with the way it retrieves the data from the sensor, and the way it treats responses from sensors. Suffice it to say that at present, it is critical that event owners should change the sensor channel in the configuration file whenever they use the script, to something hard to guess and ideally negative.



Sure - again, what I was cross about was the fact that the contest seemed to specify that "clever hacks" should be produced to get around the limitations - it didn't imply that a good script which was nonetheless limited in those ways was acceptable. If it had been I'm sure there'd have been many more entries.



Well, sure.. but on the other hand, I'm not too keen on the idea of "we gave the jackpot to a script that wasn't perfected, so now you guys have to perfect it for nothing". Would you have a fashion show won by a slightly bad looking outfit and then say "oh well, the texture's downloadable so someone can correct it in photoshop?" Scripters seem to be the only people in SL who are expected to work for free.

Yumi, I never expect scripters to work for free. I always pay for scripts other than the open source ones, and this time made sure that for once an open source scripter was given money up front for that effort.

I do, however, often hear of another group that people expect to not only work for FREE, but to work and actually pay others to receive the benefits of their work: event hosts and event venue managers. We're all supposed to, apparently, be doing it "for the love".

BTW, Yumi, thanks for the bug reports. We do appreciate that and look forward to addressing that. This helps particularly if you are specific in your reporting. (like with every OTHER aspect of SL.)

Perse has worked her patooty off on this project and practically forced it into existence by sheer force of willpower alone. For months talking to her has been, "Hey Perse, what's up, want to come shopping?" "Can't, chairing an FFRC meeting..." "Hey Perse, want to go to this cool new club?" "Can't, working with the scripters for the Box Office" "Hey Perse,got a sec?" "In a minute, got to post these notes about the contest..."

To Perse: Those of us who are blessed with knowing you are more grateful than you can know for your hard work in finding a way to support events other than Best in XXXX s and camping chairs.

To the dissers: There's a children's story where a woman is baking a pie and asks a bunch of her friends who wants to help her. "Not me!" they all answer. Then when the pie is ready, she asks who wants to eat it. Suddenly everyone wants a piece of the pie when they did nothing for it. You are even worse. You get the pie you didn't do a thing to earn and say, 'why did you even make a pie? I wanted cake! Why are you so stupid as to make pie!"

FFRC meetings are open to anyone and Perse has practically BEGGED people to help out. Maybe next time you should show up... but that would take, you know, WORK.

So did you do anything to help this contest other than show up here after the fact and bitch about the winner? Because I know Perse worked her ass off. What did you do? Perse paid DJs to do fund raisers for the prize money. How much did you spend? Perse got me to arrange events for fund raisers. How many events did you arrange? Perse personally donated thousands of linden of her own money to start the donations flowing into the box at these events (oh yeah Perse I saw that). How much did you donate?

As to another comment you made about scripters not being paid, Perse doesn't get paid ONE DIME for the work she does putting on events and for the FFRC. Last weekend at our venue we offered three live music shows, a dj dance party, a trivia contest, a game show with a dj, a treasure hunt, and a picture contest. All in one weekend. All the hosts and performers were paid -- by Perse. She spent almost 20K linden on that weekend and people say she's supposed to do it for free? You think scripters don't get paid? Event venue managers are expected to pay to put on events for other people to come to for free. So as I see it -- you got nothing to bitch about.

Perse has spent thousands of lindens bringing non-*ingo content to SL and much of her time. Those of you who have done even a half of what she's done for the community might have a right to bitch. But I don't see any of those people on the forums bitching. Just people who have done nothing.

Jonas, I have hosted events on and off for the past 2 years. At one time I collected quite a bit from DI. Most recently, I have paid event hosts, DJ's and prize money out of my own pocket. With the loss of DI and eventually, dweel (as well as the end of LL sponsored event money), there have to be new alternatives. There is a difference between "being in it for the money", and trying to minimize out of pocket expenses. I was paying out $70 - $80 US dollars a week to provide entertainment... and for the LOVE OF IT, because I like to entertain, and I like the community that was fostered by the evnts I held.

Considering the limitations of the LL tools in place, I think the Box Office should be given a chance. It is not a "required" payment, and is very configurable. The users in the end will determine whether they want to donate or not. If I hold a two hour event, and set it to lick non-donaters at 3 hours... it is basically a "FREE" event. But it also encourages the users to donate and offset my costs.

I cannot see what possible harm can come to the end users from using one. If I mis-use it, or hold bad events... it is I who will suffer, and you who will gain. WHy the hostility?

You are correct. I should have read the entire thread before my last post. Good work from all involved in this project.

Well, I appreciate that event organisers shouldn't have to work for free either.



No, I'm saying "You told me you wanted cake, but then gave the prize to someone who made a pie! I could have made a pie too, but I didn't enter one, because I couldn't get the cake to rise!"

I don't understand what you are on about. Try to step back from analyzing the word and look at the whole. There is a group that solicits donations from individuals/groups with a similar mindset. The group's aim is to distribute those funds to help event hosts cover expenses and ease the burden of providing events. People from all walks of SLife are involved and encouraged to express their opinions.

It is not malicious and it isn't harmful to you.

Your opinion is appreciated, but your style leaves a bit to be desired.

EDIT: Yumi, it's unfortunate that we were unable to convey to you the exact nature of the contest. Your input is valued.

Additionally, if anyone donating toward the prize money feels similarly to Yumi that the end result failed to live up to what we presented, contact me through IM or PM and I will personally refund your donation.

Thank you to all who did participate and especially to Perse for all the hard work.

Hey Ms. Phoenix!! Let's not make this personal =)

Yumi, you're on track. I got ingame and looked at the code, and yes, the sensor dies. We have a difference of opinion on what things could be changed, and you'd expect that as we're not the same person. So, I respect where you're coming from, and I think you I.

You have lots of good ideas - interested in being a product tester? I have some projects that need someone with your attention to detail... interested? Anyway, I digress.

TO: ALL

Sure, there are lots of things that can change in the current system. Its nice that we can change them because we have the source! At the very least, the code goes a long way to giving those so inclined to tweak it a huge headstart.

I support the efforts of FFRC (joined after this competiion). They saw a need - without DI, event promoters would be adversely affected losing a part of thier revenue stream. At least they did something about it... has LL fulfilled their promise to replace it with something else... hmmm.... where is my search button....

To those who don't like this project, how it was commissioned, why it exists, or that Ms. Phoenix has red hair... I freely share some principals that I try to follow myself:

1. Its a big world. No one sees it as you do. Share your opinion, but don't force it. Respect others to receive respect in return. Keep it professional, not personal.

2. Actions speak louder than words. If you want to change the world you live in, get involved. In this case, maybe look into joining FFRC and contributing directly.

3. No person is perfect. Therefore, neither is any program.