Screen-Shot Pirates

You'd have three major issues.

1: Frequency of appendage (i.e. lag like you wouldn't believe).

2: The fact that now you have several hundred people with the same skins and such taht will all claim they are original. Thus, it will only be effective on new products.

3: Low-rez versions, etc. that SL creates for resolution purposes would have to be filtered out. I'm not sure LL will release that information.

Then you are saying taking a picture within SL of an object means that picture becomes artwork, and is protected? Hmm, that solves the problem, when taking the picture it becomes the artwork of the one taking the picture.

You cannot incorporate someone else's photograph as part of your work, since it's not yours. But you can still use it as reference material to create your own work, in this case a rendition of traditional building style.

In this sense, if one wanted to take things even further and twist them a bit, you could even consider someone taking screenshots in SL the _original_ photographer of virtual world, who is then using _their own_ photographs to create some more work derived from it o.O;

edit: though i think it's more the case of analogy breaking here, than reasonable justification. But then again, may be wrong on it.

It depends, if you want to get really nuanced.

Say I take a snapshot of a texture, and then photoshop it into a basically identical texture - that's copying, pure and simple, not art, not photography.

On the other hand, say I take a picture of scenery in SL, that would be art.

But, if I then recreate that scenery using the same medium - SL - well, then that's copying. The exceptions would be fair use exceptions - parody, in a news-reporting context, etc - but the scope of them would have to be limited to those purposes. But, should these simply be reused for other purposes, that's copying.

I would say that the best thing to do, if N-Burg wants to recreate the buildings that exist in RL, is obtain pictures of the RL building and start over. The moment screenshots of old buildings existing in SL are used, the build would need to have a significantly new look.

Perhaps, then you should use the server concept to allow people to create an in-game copyright style system, with an organization to support it. Like a RIAA for textures in SL. People could register with you, and you could have people who then protest, boycott, and report stores that sell illicit copies.

Not as effective, but more realistic and functional.

This is the point though Hiro.

The thread was not really "non-specific" it's a thread made by Ulrika merely to gather some fodder for the real purpose of her other threads. Ulrika couldn't give a damn about copyright issues except where it applies to her own stuff. This thread is really about the so-called "piracy" that she accuses me of in the other three threads.

Of course she can report any abuse or copyright violations she may see, but she hasn't because none exist. She can make a DMCA takedown request but she hasn't because there are no grounds for such once you know the facts of the case.

Furthermore this whole "piracy" schtick is just one plank in her whole "Nburg needs to pay me for my IP rights and why the hell won't they" routine.

In fact, the government of Nburg is happy to try to come to a deal with her and has been asking her time and time again for her to make a list of what she thinks is hers so we can start negotiations. She hasn't done so. She doesn't really want a fair payment or settlement of the use of her IP, she simply wants control Neualtenburg or to have it fail.

Her purpose is simply to have fun yelling about things and making various people look foolish until the projekt *does* fail. IMO she can't stand the idea that Neualtenburg will go on without her and ultimately change all her ideas, so she wants to destroy it like any little child would want to do.

This entire thread is just a second level pawn move in her colossal twisted game of chess.

Look up the meaning of the word "ZugZwang" if you don't believe me.

Perhaps. I like how you think.. and I appreciate your playing the "Devil's Advocate". It helps bring out anything that is unclear or not fully thought out as we "think aloud" in discussion. You were already marked on my "cool" list that I keep tallied from observing forums..btw (how special aye)
So continuing on, this specific idea would involve SL adding the code that would give this "organization" the access to "view" this database. That would involve some trust in this organization that they are being honest, and the punishments could only be carried out by SL. I'm not sure how "people" other than Lindens could run this organization.

If you are talking about maintaining the database yourself (as an organization) and people have to submit their images to you for copyright, then this would seem inadequate. Only those who used your service would be protected, but not necessarily. Since it is not a requirement, there's no way to prove that those who didn't register with you didn't already make those textures. It would definitely need to be tied in with SL in an automated process(IMO).

If it was built in, anyone could do the footwork of filtering the thiefs downloads after your creation date to match with yours and offer the evidence to SL with two index numbers as grievance.

What's strange about this poll is that those who are against unauthorized reproduction and distribution are more or less well-known individuals, whereas those who are for it are complete unknowns. Definitely odd.

~Ulrika~

I've never been handed such irrefutable evidence that I have also had the foresight to document so thoroughly. All avenues will be pursued methodically in SL and RL one at a time for as long as it takes. Let's see if we can make an example of this one.

~Ulrika~

I'll tell you, the four months away from SL have been some of the best months of my life. I'm in excellent shape, my career is going well, and I'm obsessed with my fat giggly baby. Yet, having been driven out during an especially difficult time during the adjustment to my new life, I was left with resentment and anger, from the feeling that I had been exploited by a selfish and cruel subgroup of individuals. I've returned from the dead to make those who took advantage of me pay both literally and figuratively. I'm abstaining from my usual Off-Topic fun, as this is all business. After justice has been done (no matter how long it takes to be done) Ulrika will return to her grave. Death to Ulrika!

~Ulrika~

Was it The FIC? I heard they're a nasty bunch.

No. It was Ingrid Ingersoll. Stay away from Paolo or I'll scratch your eyes out!

~Ulrika~

Regardless of her intentions, the poll *was* solely about copyright before people chimed in saying that Ulrika brought up N-Burg.

I thought the poll was a good one, and I think the issue is something nuanced in a way we, as the SL community, have not yet really addressed. I absolutely am glad to see such an issue raised, so that we can delineate the lines between fair use and copyright in this new emerging technology called the Metaverse.

That being said, while I've been a staunch defender of creator's rights to their work, I also want to see N-Burg move past this. This is the second drama-thread on the forums within a month involving N-Burg that could have been quashed early on and everyone happy. Ulrika is a talented forumite, and you're falling into some pretty obvious traps.

That being said, I've for the most part written off the forums, so when I come here to talk, I am doing so against my better judgement. I'm not here to flame, I'm here because of my hopes that my own experiences with copyright can provide a perspective to this thread so that it might have, and probably still could, end favorably for everyone.

I wonder though. Since the landscape was created by someone and is not (and cannot ever be) a natural feature in SL, taking a picture of it might infringe upon the artist that created the landscape much the same way as taking a picture of a piece of sculpture in RL.

Frankly these arguements are getting ridiculous and I wonder when you're going to decide what the limits are?

How many "origional" textures being sold in the game can you find that were downloaded or purchased from someplace else? So because I wasn't the first to upload them I have to pay the schlock who did money to use them or they'll make me take my work down? (this is in reference to uploading those same source images for my own use, not ripping theirs with GLIntercept)

How many "origional" designs were made from real world examples? Because I was not the first I have to take mine down?

Can't re-create something that someone else made using a screenshot / photograph from in game?

I know.. I'm not allowed to recreate something from memory that I saw someplace in SL

Or better.... I can't make something for someone who describes it in exact detail... because it was the description of someone elses design someplace in SL.

And scripts? You want me to write you a door script? I'm sorry that was written ages ago. You need to find the person who wrote the origional one and pay him for it.

AO Override? Yep.. you need to go find the origional author and pay him for it...

Why... because it is MORALLY WRONG to copy someone elses work.

There is a very fine line between protecting your assets and being a total idiot.

The point is completely pulling LL out of the mix by offering a membership system. LL will not participate in this because LL is a business and a business doesnt' fight unnecessary battles. As more things being sold means more LindeX hits, this IS an unneccessary battle for LL.

Instead you'd offer membership into the organization and all items by those companies would be overseen by that organization. Copycats could be shamed in many, many other ways, including protests, pickets, the works.

Plenty, and it doesn't make it legal where the artist did not give authority for it to be copied. And it's a platform/virtual world/Metaverse, not a game.


I don't think anyone's saying this, are they? This is an easy case to prove though - if someone challenges you that a copyright was violated, you can point them to a URL of where the image was originally obtained.


I don't think that's what anyone is saying either - everyone is welcome to creating their interpretation of the same RL location.


Correct.

Case in point - plenty of people make swords in SL. I make katanas. Other people make katanas, which are real world objects that look fairly similar. People employ a variety of methods. However, I've caught people examining and duplicating my design for one - things like: the same number, type, and dimensions of prims used in the blade, mimicking my tsuba (the hand-guard) design. I have abuse reported this and been successful at making the person change their methods. (And, fortunately, through diplomacy, ultimately not even the LL decision.)


No, not really. You seem surprised by this.


Likewise, that's correct.


Software is a whole nother story. Copying software verbatim violates copyright. Reproducing similar methods is a matter of patent - like back when Apple sued Microsoft to change their trash bin, and Windows then made it a "recycle bin". On something like a door script, it's not only not patented, but it's much too common for one person to somehow claim ownership to that patent.


Again, different story.


In the case of the scripting, you're not copying someone's work - that would be stealing the source code or having a copyable version of the compiled script. It is morally wrong to copy someone's work - they deserve credit for it. It isn't morally wrong to create a competitive product.


Well, there's a fine line between anything and being a total idiot - anything can be taken overboard. However, in the case of copyright, I think there are some pretty clear lines drawn out, and it's a matter of public awareness of what those rules are.

My view from this little hill I'm stood upon:

To the north:
If you can't handle people copying your stuff then you probably shouldn't be making it.

To the west:
You wouldn't leave $500 out in the middle of the street and not expect to see it stolen.

East:
I think we have copyright laws to protect the system. Not necessarily to protect the individual creator. It's all about creating an environment for money to flow. The system doesn't care about your freaking L$1000 dress. SHUTUP ALREADY!!

and to the south:
Just water, lots and lots of salty water. Oh, and a shark.

I thought it's quite badly formed one, enough to make any results rather pointless. The opening question combines two issues (unauthorized reproduction _and_ making profit from it) but the poll options force you to either rule both these aspects out, or accept them both, and omit the authorization aspect altogether.

If the goal was to get some actual, objective feedback, it should've been more like:

"Unauthorized use of screen-captures to reproduce clothing or structures is...

a) always acceptable
b) acceptable for personal use only
c) acceptable for business use only
d) never acceptable"

("c" is clearly oddball, but included there for sake of completness)

Interesting fact - I've spoken with more than one person more than capable of directly competing with your wand, and they have stated that out of respect for you that they would focus on other aspects. I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but I think it may lend to your perspective on this issue.


Your analogy fails. If $500 was left in the middle of the street, there's a strong argument that it's in public space.

It may be easy to shoplift things from a store, but that's wrong, too.


The system is an inanimate thing; it doesn't care about anything.

I realize you take SL as a hobby, and not a job, but many of us do take it as a job, Starax. I would be surprised if someone started ripping off copies of your wand, and you still sang the same tune.

Hmmm. So, I guess you could have a landowners agreement by all supporters that would ban those that violated the copyright from all such lands, in essence, exiling them to the few places that might still take them.

The only thing is that only those individuals that used the service would be protected. Which means all users would want to "copyright" self-made textures as soon as possible with this organization or not be protected. A small fee would be necessary for the overhead of maintaining such a web page.

The landowners could be given some set amount of $L per month for supporting the organization to encourage their continued help in banning the pirates.

The web-page would be there for anyone to use and not be modified, just added to as a permanent record of "copyright" information. Date Time and Username info and a low resolution copy of the texture with a watermark (if necessary).

You wouldn't be able to know how many times the item was sold in SL, so seeking financial compensation would not be possible, but people would have to comply or be exiled.

This would need to be a non-profit organization, to be trusted, with open books, showing that the money was used entirely for mainting the system with the good of the people in mind. The total texture count (highest index entry) would reveal on the web page how many textures were copyrighted, giving all an exact amount of how much money was acquired. You could also allow anyone to be a reporter of stolen goods and reward them ... just a thought.

I couldn't possibly complain about somebody making a wand. In the same way that Cubey couldn't complain about somebody making an aircraft.

Bring on the competition!!!

* Whistles a happy tune nervously *