Intellectual Property Safeguards?

If only that were anywhere even remotely close to true. I see the same "LL sucks" posts by the same people every day for the last, who knows, certainly every day since I started playing in January. And they just keep going, and going, and going... where are the suspensions?! We want suspensions!

Okay, not really. Some actual moderation would be nice, though. It's not censorship to insist that people don't make a new thread (or five) every day about the same topic, but continue to use the old one that's still open. But that's another issue entirely... don't mean to threadjack...

Talon, you've hit upon my main concern. I don't want to be suspended or banned just because I had the same idea someone else had. So I most definitely don't want to live in a world where mere accusation of copying can cause LL to do something drastic. If there are limits to what LL is willing to do under those kind of circumstances, good, because there bloody well should be!

That having been said, if there is something LL can do to substantiate Nanao's claims, and they haven't already done so, I think it's fair to ask that they do some investigating. But if they do (or already have) and come up dry, that's pretty much all that can be reasonably expected of them.

I'd love to hear from the other side, but given a lot of people's comments here, I'd be afraid to come forward and say anything if it were me, even if I was in the right. And, ultimately, it's really none of my business... *shrug*

This isn't about another person's objects kinda looking like Nanao's. This about him deliberately ripping off Nanao's creation, prim for prim, with little effort, using a script to circumvent the permissions system. He didn't build something of his own effort and skill using an idea similar to Nanao's, he made an exact duplicate of a work that Nanao poured his heart into.

Blunting the issue with half-facts isn't going to bring about any kind of resolution here. Not to mention Nanao's got more than enough proof to bring to LL, and alot of other people willing to back him up with, you guessed it... more proof. So I kindly ask that people stop trying to come from the other side of the issue with comments about lacking proof.

(edit: spelling)

Right, I get a warning to stand up for my rights, but when people STEAL others items, or sell freebies and rip off newbies, use scripts to copy an object prim for prim
they get nothing?

Thats not fair.

What am I supposed to do, What do you people expect me to do ? not say a word? keep quiet while people step all over me? or the many hours I put into keeping a fair business?


Why do I even bother,

sure maybe i stepped out of line with some harsh words towards someone, but when the same individual harasses me over IM, logs on with an ALT and attempts to put my business down everything is peachy , right, of course

This is unbelievable.

Guys, chill out. Torley is just trying to do her job.

It seems like Linden Labs rewards those with little in the ways of morals or ethics.

This guy has done this to items by several people, direct copies, prim for prim, intentionally, to make money off the hard work of others.

Yet, Linden Labs sits back, laughs, and tells him to go on his merry way, while getting upset at the rest of us.

Alrite folks - one more reply. Julia - guess what. I have ultimate proof - with a crowd of atleast 15+ people in the Furnation Sandbox Vista - with quite a few people who will all vouch that the work was thus copied prim for prim size for size every single last bit AS I was making it. I didn't realize it until halfway then I picked it up - but he made an entirely EXACT copy of the armor I was making custom for him after saying he would pay 15K for a specially made set of whale armor. I have logs of them trying to destroy my reputation, make me lose friends, and even have evidence of almost loosing one. The funny part of it is, I had just had my services advertised on the internet radio that was playing in the sandbox - think it was public radio actually..then suddenly 2 whales with huge bits and a beaver come flying up to me asking for armor. I agreed because they said they'd pay 15k - 20 minutes later they're copying my work and then finish it and distritubte it amongst their little friends. Then the beavers asks for armor for the same price to to try to scam me. Then they use Miles05's keyblades to try and scam him and take his brand new design he was almost finished with. You do realize LL, that this kind of thing is giving you a really bad mark? I mean no offence...it's just ...this is becoming a very large very bad issue. In the least, can you possibly ban the script? I mean...I've sent out multipe AR's the day it happened to me as well...didn't get a response..I've sent out multiple AR's about many things that are highly offensive deflammitory, even issues with child pornography...if I'm not getting a response on child pornography, then why Nanao - do we expect anything about this happening?

To get onto that matter about LL's not doing anything. It seems to be true as of late. People are putting up 100 10x10 meter tall blockades totally destroying sims in certain places; people are dropping prim bombs and expecting the owners of the sims to do something about it ( Furnation SandBox Vista x6 ) People are hacking into SL and they aren't doing much aside from shutting down the servers for a few hours.

What's going on LL? I'm serious. Theft, Hacking, Laziness. I love second life with a fiery burning passion. It makes my life go round. But if YOU aren't willing to help us with our problems and help us police SL; then damn well let us do it ourselves?? Please?

- EDIT: BTW Have you noticed the amount of public sandboxers going down especially in FN? That's because people are stealing others work - especially newbies. Bad for business -.-

Where one right stands- two more emerge to support exploitation on the first.

I find it interesting that there is a large number of people with a serious greivence here, and the only Linden to chime in is Torley, to tell fols tostop personal attacks.

This is a serious issue. People are pissed. But its good to know the Town Hall meetings, as the forums are supposed to represent, I think, don't get the attention of the "mayors", so to speak. Those with the power aren't responding, and its sickening.

That's because, to adress the issue would do one of two things.

If they promised better enforcement or options for protection, it would cost them time and money.

If they said "too bad, we don't care", there would be a firestorm.

They can't win, they are aware, and are remaining silent.

It appears there are a couple of misapprehensions in this thread about what is going on.

The first one is where somebody said that there must be "proof beyond reasonable doubt" of copyright infringement. That is incorrect. Beyond reasonable doubt is the burden of proof in a criminal prosecution and mounting such a prosecution would be even more expensive than going through the civil courts. The majority of copyright enforcement is done through the civil courts and there the burden of proof is the balance of probabilities. That is a much lower standard of proof.

Next we have the issue of copyright vs passing off. Copying the armour without permission is copyright infringement, although if it had only been done for personal use it could be argued that fair use might apply. However selling the armour after that definitely shifts it into the realm of copyright infringement not covered by fair use. Saying that the armour is the work of the person who appropriated it is not copyright infringement, it is passing off. That is a separate tort (wrong in civil law) although it is fairly hard one to prove. Passing it off is the most basic level of trademark law.

Then we have the issue of Linden Labs and enforcement of rights. Linden Labs is a service provider, like an ISP, under the terms of the DMCA. That means that they are not responsible for illegal content on their servers until and unless they are notified of it. That notice is the well known DMCA take-down notice. Until and unless Linden Labs actually receives that notice they are not obligated to take action under the DMCA. Once they receive such a notice if they did not take action they would be liable under the DMCA and also for breach of contract since they would not be following section 4.3 of their terms of service.

Decrying Linden Labs for not taking action otherwise brings up another fundamental legal question: capacity. Do Linden Labs have the legal capacity to take action against the infringer? Unless the copyright holder expressly or implicitly makes Linden Labs their agent they do not have that right since they are not the injured party. Even then Linden Labs may refuse to become the agents of the copyright holder since it would expose them to potential legal fees and the like. That's why complaining about these abuses through abuse reports is not really working. Making that complaint gives Linden Labs the implicit authority to act as agents for the copyright holder but they may choose not to exercise that authority. Given that there is the DMCA take-down notice route it is extremely unlikely that Linden Labs would act as agents for the copyright holder otherwise as they would be exposing themselves to all sorts of potential legal liabilities in doing so. The thing that makes the DMCA route attractive for service providers is that it provides protection from legal liability for them when acting as agents for the copyright holder.

In summary: frustrating as it may be the only real way to do this is to send Linden Labs a DMCA take-down notice. Otherwise you are really out of options if they won't do anything about the abuse reports.

It's hilarious who shows up in this topic instantly on the defensive. I'm glad to see they are living with a guilty conscience although they are an embodiment of LL's inaction on the part of "resident's rights".

DMCA request (And not making anything full perms) looks like the only way LL will do anything. This might be because of safe harbor as a service provider like David mentions but I think it's a bit of a mystery if that actually applies to LL.

One small problem there. If the only way to protect our IP rights to an SL Creation is by actually filing a US Copyright, it's completely insane, financially, for anyone other than the largest, most popular merchants.

The filing fee for a US Copyright is $30 USD. That's over 10,000 Lindens. So, to protect my dress design, for a dress that sells for maybe L$300? I have to first pay out L$10,000? PER DRESS?!? You've got to be kidding. Or what about my textures that I sell. which go for only L$30 to L$45 each?

If stuff in-game sold for something close to what real-world items sold for, this might be practical. But with a designer dress selling for maybe a buck in real money? It doesn't make sense.

It's not one small problem; it's one small reality. LL have clearly defined what their willing to do to protect our creator rights. They don't consider our costs any more than you consider theirs by expecting them to pay people to police these issues inworld. It's understandable for them to be unwilling to pay the bill to protect our rights.

If stuff in-game sold for something close to what real-world items sold for, we'd be talking about enough money to care. My trees sell for thirty to fifty cents each depending on the market value of the linden. How can I, with a straight face, demand that LL pay full time employees to go after the odd bugger that I claim is selling similar knockoffs?

Knockoffs are one thing, as they are clearly inferior products.

Direct copies are something else, as they are both infringing on the original creator's copyright, and attempting to misappropriate the items.

Small Example: Timeless Prototype's Multi Gadget -- (ignoring scripts, as Nanao's item that really pushed him over the edge was unscripted)

I make a knockoff, it looks similar and I call it the 'Many Gadget.' I may be wrong for trying to cash in on the work of others, but it's my own original work, even if the concept is someone elses.

I make, through scripts to recreate all the prims, an exact replica of the Multi Gadget, maybe with different color, and call it, say, "Multi Gadget XP." *cough*

The second scenario, I'm clearly infringing on Timeless' copyright to the object.

Yes you are clearly infringing on Timeless' copyright, and Linden Lab will enforce that copyright, provided that Timeless actually holds one, and provided that Timeless files a DMCA.

I won't argue that stealing is wrong or that Linden Lab should help us as much as possible. But I will argue that they shouldn't be expected to open themselves open to countersuits and real world expenses to defend our rights out of the goodness of their hearts. The Lindens are first obligated to protect themselves and their ability to maintain the project.

If we're going to complain that defending our property rights costs us money and expect LL to pick up the tab, we might as well argue that they shouldn't charge us tier fees or upload fees or even that they should purchase new video cards for us all every time they increase the specifications.

I swear, people don't even bother reading posts anymore. Legal action isn't what we want.
Okay?
Legal action is not what we want.
Got it, everyone? Here. Let me clarify.

Legal action is not what we want.Legal action is not what we want.

We want LL to ban the thief. Screw legality. Thats a murky and difficult road. We want L to enforce things within their power. And ot ban a person from the grid requires no legal right or standing whatsoever. They can cancel an account for any reason they see fit, at any time.
Legal action is not what we want.
Said it once more, to be sure.

And I guess we're also all here arguing the letter of the law. The fine hairs. But thats not how life goes. Things should be enforced as they were meant to be enforced. LL claims they protect our intellectual property, right? So what if they can't prove, according to a legal definition, that someone stole something? If its obvious they should be able to use their *gasp* JUDGEMENT.

I get so *SICK* of people dithering over the nuances and letter of the law, when the solution could be done quickly andd efficiantly with just a little bit of effort and brainpower.

But its obvious the Lindens don't care. Torley posted a personal response in the technical issues forum today, because that sort of stuff affects people. If people crash, they can't play, if they can't play, LL loses money.

This is an emphereal thing that only matters if you're trying toa ctually form a virtual world with a virtual social structure. But its becoming more and more obvious that for all their lofty supposed ideas, LL is full of crap =) THey're out for the money, and the money alone.

*shrugs* Which is their right, I suppose, but I wish they'd admit it instead of feeding us bullcrap about wanting a "resident run government" to cover their lack of action.

This is true. Perhaps they'll ban my account for wasting their time filing abuse reports that demand they ban people just because I say so. It's not like I should have to DO anything to substantiate my claims, especially if it's gonna cost me money! Ban them! Ban ME! DO SOMETHINGoneoneone

Hi Harlequin.

OMG! No, it's not that we don't care.... for me, it's simply because I'm not well-versed in the intricacies of what's going on here. Also, most Lindens don't browse the forums, but I enjoy communicating issues of relevance.

IP isn't my area of expertise, so I'm learning from what's been said.

I do emphasize with your frustration--you could have asked me personally too. I post personal responses in many areas of the forums.

In addition to being a Linden, I'm also a consumer who's curious about these things--I am not a "content creator" per se. However, I've made many friends over time in Second Life who create great works and feel wounded when their creations are "ripped off". I've been close to that.

I will ask to see if there's any more Linden input we can give on this which we haven't clarified before, such as related questions which come up time to time in Second Life Answers. For those who haven't seen these before:
and more. One way to find these is to do an Advanced Search:
and put "Robin Linden" as the User Name, as she's answered a lot of these questions on our policies, and keywords like "copyright" or "DMCA".

The problem with what you are saying about here is that we are in the land of the law. What you are asking LL to do is in the realms of contract law. Banning someone is a step that, at least in theory, seems to be within the terms of service of LL. However there are many contracts that contain overly broad terms with those terms ending up getting thrown out in court. Like it or not we have the rule of law to consider.

I sympathise with you and I do with that there was an easier way of dealing with people who steal items. If LL could step in it would be much more helpful than the current situation. However in lieu of them stepping in there's not much you can do besides go down the DMCA take-down route.

Alrite. Suggestion. If you wont help us at LL, can we start warning other builders about it and about the people doing it?

It's a warning, not an exiling or banishment. Just to make sure people are aware that competition on SL is becoming as bad as in RL and people can no longer build in sandboxes and expect the work to be safe from "SL Hackers" ( meaning concept theifs or prim theifs via script ). A lot of people work VERY hard and VERY long to make these things we make. We put a lot of time and effort to make our skills what they are to be able to build these things, then suddenly a punk comes along using a script and who has NO history with building what-so-ever no knowledge of HOW to build busts out a script and suddenly starts building an identical thing, trying to overtake the original maker, flame them publically and resell the stuff for cigerettes and booze in rl.

The least you can do LL, is make a warning to the users in the update that this is going on. If we can't get anything out of it, atleast, please do this. Even though most lindens don't read these forums, I know Coffee Linden and Adam Linden and Torley Linden all do. So, one of you three please discuss this with the others. PLEASE, I'm to the point of begging. It's happening too often. I mean I'm honored that I'm a good enough builder for others to want to copy my designs...but...for bloody hell's sakes...I am relying on this to make a small living in RL so I can afford to get my new computer things along with pay rent for my store and club. I'm a student right now and haven't got time for a job other than what I do in SL. So it's my only means of making enough to supprt tier and save up for my computer things. A lot of people rely on this game to make money...and we pay a LOT of money to LL, I'd settle now for just a warnin and maybe for people like you Torley to look into this matter. :\

I know, lot of rambling on and sadness. But meh, I needed to say it for personal reasons.

Solution: Don't make objects modifiable!

If it's a problem to your customers, then give them a notecard explaining the flaw in the SL system that prevents you from giving away objects that are modifiable. If you spread the word this way eventually LL will either fix the flaw or the SL society will grow accustomed to non-mod objects.

What's with "told to keep nameless"? Why is everyone in the forums afraid of naming names? Give us his name so people can be on the lookout. Just say "Mister So-and-so allegedly did this..."

That's not a solution. Many things have to be mod, or they're useless to the customer. Like hair. Avis aren't standard you know. In the case of textures, they're in a far more fragile position... if they don't sell them full permissions they're useless.

A notecard won't help customers understand they can't make their hair fit their head. They won't "grow accustomed" to it. They'll simply not buy it.

Not quite that easy when there are tools available that can rip the 3D data directly from OpenGL:
http://ogle.eyebeamresearch.org/

It's cool software, too bad it's used for evil and not for good in SL, heh.