Charging RL wages for SL work... discussion?

For Second Life projects that are not-for-profit, I sometimes find myself working for free, if the concept is interesting enough.

On the other hand, if a RL business wanted my services for some profitable venture, I'd be billing out at something around 1.5 to 2x what my RL salary is now, if computed hourly.

/me bows gravely

You are brilliant and always, always right.

Indeed. The only job I can see paying professional wages in SL right now is actually being a Linden.

That said, I do think SL work is massively undervalued, even with the vagaries of the system, inability to export, etc, etc are added in.

I'm with Aimee. If someone wants my time for a custom job, they have to be willing to pay what I'm worth. Otherwise, I can spend my time making things that I can put on a shelf, charge a little bit for, and let it earn by volume sold. If someone hires me, they get 100% original textures, baked lighting, the whole nine yards. All that takes time, and that time has to be paid for. If they want something less, they can go elsewhwere. If they want quality, they need to pay.

I guess I should also mention that I don't take many custom jobs. To me, the job has to be something I'd like to build as well as worthwhile financially. I know that's not smart business, but SL has to be fun first and business second for me.

I'd have to agree with one thing: for me to even bother going after a full contract with a RL company in SL, they'd have to offer me a similar fee to what I charge hourly for professional services. Anyone offering that much money could save a lot, and get a comparable product given the limitations of SL if they hire hobbyists instead.

Nah, I'm just textured that way

RL graphic designers get paid a lot more than $40 an hour... the very good ones. Now some designers might work in SL for less for the fun and novelty of it, but most SLers working really cheap are not pro's, they are hobbyists.

When a hobbyist gets good enough to become pro, they should value their own time better... unless it's just for fun in which case they should do whatever the heck they want (go PAY someone else to let you build if that makes you happy... oh wait, we do that... it's linden lab )

not everyone needs, cares, can tell the difference, or wants high-end design skills, but those who do should expect to pay for it.

I'm guessing that the SL market can't support a lot of really high-end work right now, but there is some out there.

(nod)

I think it needs to be that way, too, and it's probably best: a high-end market of professional prices and a low-end market of what are effectively micropayments for popular items.

Lots of incoming newbies are excited by the ability to create. We don't want to lose that to a market where nobody gets that excitement when they join because it's a case of having to pick between a) you can already create stuff anyway, and thus doing so isn't a thrill, or b) there's no point creating stuff, because without past professional experience you aren't good enough.

So yes, if the pros want to charge incredibly high amounts or charge in US$ then let's go ahead and let them - it'll make sure that the micropayment market stays open for the rest of us. It's when they start giving pro-quality stuff away cheap, or that buying large numbers of L$ becomes so common among "ordinary" users that the expectations of SL as a society start to change, that we have to panic. Until then there's a place for both pros, amateurs, and nutters who'll try anything once. (Speaking of which, that's a neat trick with the textures, Aimee.. hmm, Blender's still free, right?.. )

Top tier products aren't the only products either in SL or RL.
Otherwise stores would only have Rolex watches, or some similar equivalent in price/quality (Never seen a Rolex, and don't really know if they're worth what people are willing to pay for them. Just a random example)

There's always some demand for top-tier, expensive builds, objects, skins, whatever. Up in the rarified atmosphere where sales of them are few and far between, but the profits make it all worth it.

OTOH, the market extends all the way down to L$1 and L$0 freebies. Every content-maker makes a choice about how much work they put into an item, and how much they sell that item for.

One clothing designer I know makes great work and almost literally gives the product away. She doesn't really need the cash (though she could make a lot more of it). My tee-shirts are priced to sell at a particular rate for cost-recovery and the payments of my monthlies. I've been toying with marking them down a bit, now that inflation is relatively under control.

Really, you don't have to be a superstar to sell. A lot of newbies miss that. They see the top end content-makers and think "I can never be that good, so there's no market for me", rather than thinking, "Well, there's a lot of people who can't afford that, but might well be willing to buy cheaper products that I can make."

One content-maker alone rarely occupies a market-vertical. There's quite a number of horizontal tiers that need filling, and the verticals are getting wider as our population increases. If a particular horizontal and vertical are too crowded, shift a little. Up or down (or sideways). There's plenty of free spaces for content-makers still, IMO.

Newbies bring in fresh energy, fresh viewpoints and fresh conceptions. New ideas for content. New desires for content. Every month the consumer market changes. Not all the established businesses are willing to take the time to chase the changing multi-dimensional curves of customer desires and fads - and why should they if their established businesses are doing well enough? - and that leaves room for smaller, newer, more agile businesses to establish themselves in a market niche.

Whew. Starting to waffle on. Sorry about that.

My rates are similar to Lordfly's, and I don't have even half the reputation he does

I have a background in 3D modelling (10 years in CAD and FEA), graphic design (9 years in web design/development) and coding (20 years of programming in various languages), but none of that makes me a great Second Life architect. I don't particularly want the stresses and deadlines associated with RL work when I build in SL.

I'm currently working a just-above-minimum-wage job because I have chosen to escape the high-pressure/high-stress world of my previous RL careers, and I have no desire to dive back into it in SL simply because other people treat it that way. I build in SL because it's fun for me, and because there's no way I'm ever going to be an architect in the real world.

I did spend a small amount of time working on a private island for an institution who paid me wages in US$s at a realistic rate, and I treated that as completely separate from the work I do for regular residents.

I'm not going to be changing my rates. To come home from a day's work and log on to SL and be able to create a home for someone that they will live in and love - I'm just happy to do that for money that will pay my tier at the end of the month.

Oh, and I'm 99% sure I know who LF was talking to - I've had the same conversation with them

From the perspective of someone who does outsourcing of work -

I don't have time to tackle all the things I want, and so I will outsource stuff. (Latest case - my blog's new design http://secondtense.blogspot.com) - it seems every time I get a quote from someone, it's a low-ball figure, and I wind up not only offering them more, but tipping them a significant % of L$.

I, of course, have high expectations of the work done. What's great is that people rise to the occaision, and I love the work that I wind up contracting out.

There's an awful lot of good advice in this thread.

coco

i dunno...if midnight city didn't already exist, would that be worth some mad cash to have the original? its almost mind boggling how well done it is.

aimee...how long did midnight city take you to create, if you don't mind my asking. i'm curious what something like that would actually cost in USD using that rate.

I haven't seen Midnight city since it hs moved out of Umber... but the best build I had ever seen was China Town, and I still would not pay that much for a virtual product, sorry

There are three factors that I look at here.

1. How much effort does it take me to build something?
2. What is it worth it to me to do that instead of doing something else?
3. What are similar products going for?

Over the last year I've been slowly coming to the realization that I should not do work for others unless they truly make it worth my while. It works much better for me to work at my own pace and deliver product when I feel like it, and not have to worry about "creeping featurism" or other minor annoyances of contract work. I have enough RL programming and other design work going on that I don't need or want to think of SL as a job. For someone to hire me, I've decided that I will charge a significant portion of real-world wages, and no more of this below-minimum-wage work. The "build once, sell 100 times" model will of course stay, but contract work is only going to be that which is worth my while from now on.

I've also decided to make a major change in the way I develop my primary product, which is aircraft. I'm no longer going to just assemble something that looks good to me. I'm going to design my planes in X-Plane and tune them until they fly well. Beyond simply helping me design planes with more realistic geometry, this will give me an excellent reference for when it comes time to tune my physics scripts (which in itself is easily 25-50 hours, and that doesn't count the time taken to design the underlying logic.) Add that to the time spent recording, sequencing, etc. the engine and avionics sound effects and writing the highly detailed documentation that I include. Because of the extended design process, the jets I sell in the future are likely to be significantly more expensive than what I sell now. Fair's fair, you get what you pay for. Of course, I'll keep the older merchandise at the same price.

Another variable there is Francis Chung's muscle car, which sells for over L$2000 and is worth every dime. It's a fantastic machine, with both beautiful texturing and an obscenely huge featureset. Usually you don't see cars selling for even close to L$1000, let alone twice that. What I see here is a benchmark - a sign that if you build a superior product, people will pay for it. I'm not saying that vehicles are all going to jump to L$2000. There will always be "economy" vehicles, if only because many vehicle builders simply won't expend that kind of effort and customers will not fork over that much money for the equivalent of a Geo Metro.

As for charging serious consulting rates (such as $40-$250 an hour), if my time becomes worth that much to me, it's just what I'll do. I suppose I won't have many takers, or any at all, but that's more free time for me to do what I want.

Really really good answers in this thread.

There's always someone willing to pay what you ask for your time. If its just one someone or enough someones to keep you in constant work, well that's another story.

One thing I think we're going to be seeing more of is the casual SL player who is willing to spend money to have what they want, especially if its unique to them and its exactly what they're looking for, aka custom jobs. These will be the same people who purchase sims and possibly even look for people to fill specific roles in their vision, in effect creating their own Bedazzled for their one-off project. LindenX is really going to push that along, because now its sooo much easier to get $L immediately in your account to spend.

And LF, you shouldn't be concerned about where you fall in some echelon of skill. What matters is what style the consumer likes. Your sense of proportion and symmetry is something I don't have an eye for, but I can make textures all day long. Some people will gravitate towards your style, others gravitate towards mine, and some people hate both of ours and go for any one of the many other very talented people working in SL.

The people that spend this type of cash are out there, and they're looking for quality product. I've seen that much.

This bears repeating. Look at what the other people in your field are doing, of course, but don't be too moved by that. If you are really good at what you do, word will get around. Also, I've noticed something: PERSONAL SELLING WORKS. It works for vehicles, and it DEFINITELY works for weapons. (However, I don't know how well it would work for architecture.)

I'm constantly suprised at how much skilled weapon makers can make without a shop and without advertising. Its like the black market is part of the fun

Architecture is a strange niche in SL. You can't really just whip out your latest creation (unless you're in a spot with a lot of room) and sell it to a group of people. Prefabs and custom work are your only income options, unless you branch out into furniture or accessories. I've had a few people track me down from seeing my stuff on Snapzilla - is that a factor for anybody?

I have heard prefabs sell really well on the external sites, like SLExchange.

For my own merchandise in SL, I don't charge any more than the 'market rate' for similar SL products. There's plenty of other designers out there making clothes and eyes and other stuff that is as good as, or in a great many cases, far better than mine. So since I can't really offer anything in those markets that gives a buyer a good reason to pay more, I just enjoy the design work and the fact that those sales somewhat manage to offset some of my own expenses here.

On the other hand, I also act as an artist's representative for Porter, a real-world artist who can do stunning 3D, photo-realistic art. Some of my t-shirts use original art that he produced. It is possible for Second Life people to commission him to do custom portraits of their Avatars, but they will have to pay Real World prices to commission him. Like $45 USD and up, which in the Real World is quite reasonable for custom high-resolution artwork. For that price, L$12,000 or so, you get a stunning piece of art to display inside SL, and you also get a digital version of the art suitable for high-resolution printing in the real world, and a glossy color print mailed to your Player. People in other forums have happily lined up to commission Porter to do art for them, at those prices. In SL, I've had several people comment that it is a fair price, but he has yet to get anyone to pay that for a commission, even though they get something tangible as well as something neat to have in-world.

I think the fact that all SL 'merchandise' is intangible is a major reason why people are unwilling to pay real world prices for it. The most I've ever paid in-world for a single item was about L$4000, for an item with a lot of inter-related scripted functions. And that's only about $16.50 in USD.

I still can't wrap my head around the fact that anyone would be willing to pay hundreds of dollars, maybe thousands, for a virtual build. I'm not implying that people's time isn't worth something... I think maybe I'm not immersed enough.

And LF, your builds will never be obsolete. I love texture baking, but making a place that feels right inside with nice prim work is more important, imho.

I won't pay RL prices for anything that doesn't offer me RL value.

It's not anyone's time I'm devalueing by refusing to pay a shitload of money for something in SL, it is that item's importance and usefulness to me.

I don't actually 'live' in SL, and the houses/buildings/cars/clothes etc etc serve no actual purpose. It's playing Barbies, and Barbie's Dream Home simply isn't worth much to me.

I am relatively new to Second Life. I joined on21 September 2005. So far I have really enjoyed the program. I did not realize when I signed up that it was going to cost so much to have a little fun and enjoyment. I plan on keeping my basic account and will continue to enjoy the program. I don't disagree that you should be paid for your time and effort, it is just that I can't afford it. I would love to own a piece of land in SL but again, this is a game not the real world. I can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars to live in a fantasy world. I realize there are others, not you so please do not take this as flaming. But I know there are others who put thousands of their own real money into this program for the sole purpose of making mega bucks off those of us who just want to have some fun and enjoyment. Then when make a mistake (part of being new) you get talked down too. Example, and I will not mention any names: the other day I was looking for a place to practice building, most the sandboxs were full so I did a search on sandbox and found one, teleported to the location and found several areas that looked like a sandbox and proceeded to build, again being new I did not understand when the itemed I made suddenly disappeared for no apparent reason. Finally I moved my avatar around and saw three of them in a corner. I approach them and ask may have caused this, I was rudely told that it was a "commerical building area" which by the way was not lableled as such, nor was it shown in the as such in my search. I was sent an IM telling me I was in a resticted area or anything. This is not right! I do really like this program, and am having fun but I feel like this game is for only the "rich and famous", if you don't have mega buck to buy land, paid taxes or fees, you can't have a place. Again, I thought this was supposed to be a fun game and not a place you make a living. Yes, I do buy some things in here and have put it on my credit card but I can pay half the prices people are asking for things. Maybe it is just me.......Again I am not downing you for asking for a just and fair price for your time.. I am not that good yet in building and hope to learn...but it is for fun. As I have said I am new and have a lot to learning, but from what I have been seeing in-word and have read on this forum, only about 5 to at the max 15 per cent of the people in here are making money on this game...the rest are on here for fun.....

Hope you make a fair labor charge and thank you for allowing me to comment......

I just want to have fun, meeting great people and enjoy....not go broke.

sorry for the typos, just a little upset...I meant to say I was not sent an IM telling me I was in a restricted area. Guess this is more like the real world than I thought. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer........On second thought I may just get out of this program and go to one that at least your treated like a real live person.......

Let me weigh in here from the perspective of someone that is looking to start an RL-valued business here in SL.

I am putting together a business plan for a tutoring business in SL similar to the RL Sylvan Learning Centers. Initial talks with LL have started and if all goes well I will be leasing a sim within the next two months and starting the build.

This is a subject I have thought about to a very great degree.

The big initial issue for me is that running an RL-valued business from SL is fairly new and the hurdles and risks are fairly large. Additionally there is no comparable value for fixed assets in SL as there are in RL. In otherwords if I purchase buildings and scripts and such for my sim there is no proven fixed asset value as there is in RL. Consequently the compensation for their design is not completely comparable.

The plan I have to get things going is more along the lines of the following;

1. Find SL-valued builders to do the initial build of the sim.
2. Open for business charging RL-valued prices for services keeping in mind the RL-value will be less due to SL overhead (business and customer overhead) being less than RL overhead.
3. As the business grows and becomes profitalbe, increase the compensation to builders to come more in line with their RL-value, again keeping in mind the fixed asset value of what they are providing.
4. Accept all payments and pay all services in L$s so as to grow the SL economy in a way that promotes RL-value work within SL.

Eventually I can easily see paying semi-RL-value compensation for work done in SL. I say "semi" simply because SL attracts hobbyists that often provide similar quality work as professionals...in this venue. And that SL 'building' is not the same as RL building in that there are no structural considerations, building codes, inspections, etc. etc. that RL architects and contractors have to deal with.

Nevertheless RL-value compensation IS coming to SL but only IF LL can manage to stabalize the grid to the point where RL business wouldn't effectively be shut down for weeks.

This last patch should give any RL-value business pause, I can not imagine successfully running an RL business under the conditions we've seen these past two weeks. While LL says SL business has not suffered there seems to be a mixed report from SL vendors on that issue. Additionally I don't think RL customers will find they have the same patience as players of a 'game'.

The 'game' mentality absolutely HAS to be lost before SL will be used by RL businesses.

As for your compensation expectations I would expect the following;

1. SL-value compensation will continue as it has. The need for good graphic design will be offset by influx of 'hobbyist' designers that will provide a near-comparable service.
2. As business come in to SL...and they will eventuall if LL does their job...RL professional designers will start to find they can make near-RL-value wages within SL. Real business will pay higher wages to professionals simply because professionals are generally more reliable than 'hobbyists" and are able to work with specifications and document their work in a professional way.
3. Once RL-busniess are making RL-valued profits then they will be considerably less reluctant to pay RL-valued compensation.
4. 'Game' players will never pay RL-valued compensation. Hobbyist builders will fill their needs.