Epic structures/wonders in SL: theories, possibilities, feasibilities?

Protip for ADD kids: scroll down to the last 3 paragraphs to get to my point.

Second life is fast.

I don't mean fast as in framerates, or even lag, I mean in a sense of time.

In SL, you can make money fast, prototype things fast, program things fast, transport yourself fast, get updated fast, and download fast. New upgrades to the world and the grid come in 6-month intervals, further upgrading our "virtual reality". Every month, 30,000 more people enter into the community, changing its culture, ideas, and traditions.

There's a problem, though; nothing is permanent.

There is scarcely a thing in-world that has stood the proverbial "Test of Time". Quick, name ten landmarks in SL that are unmistakable, have been around forever, and are resistant to the changing world around it?

I can think of two: Stellar Sunshine's beanstalk in Welsh, and the Tan Bell Tower.

Both have been in-world longer than I have; both are identifiable almost by mere mention. Both create a frame of reference for the rest of the Grid, and for our shared culture.

The Tan Tower is a prime example. I used to live in Tan, around version 1.1. It was actually almost lost when the new tier system went into place; the owner of it is quite absent. Fortunately, some last minute contacts managed to keep the Tower up without too much structural loss.

Tan has changed violently since I left for greener pastures in Grignano; 90% of the structures are gone from that time, the landscape is entirely different, and a casino is the main attraction to the sim, rather than the small smattering of elite stores.

And yet, the Tower still sits there, almost defiant in its anachronism.

For some reason the concept of something withstanding the daily, even minute-by-minute of SL really excites me.

In the real world, there is a project called The Long Now that aims to create another Wonder of the World: that being a 10,000 year-accurate mechanical clockwork design.

How freaking sweet is that? Here we have a group of people thinking not just long term, but "holy hell that's forever from now" long term.

My question for discussion is: are long-term epic, wonder-inducing projects possible in SL, ones that will withstand the changes that ebb and flow throughout our fair world? Will more places and objects spring up that are so ubiquitous to our history and understanding of SL that they become almost monuments?

Furthermore, is there anything we can do to encourage such things?

My immediate thought was to have the Lindens sponsor monument projects for the Void sims. Several of them have empty islands in them that just scream for something unique and amazing put in there, free of commercialism and the ethereal nature of the rest of the Grid. Something like the Long Now clock, for instance. Or whatever.

Thoughts?

LF

but wanted to second others to check out 'long now' - it's very intriguing stuff. wow, somebody else has heard of it!!

I think destruction and rebirth is inevitible ;P. When I heard they were redesigning the welcome area I thought, "Aww, that sucks, I like how it is." but then after they did redesign it, I like it better. As SL grows and we get taper and the corkscrew and other prim tools, prim types, prim limits, ect, ect... In other words, as SL gets better we can build better, more complex builds. Much like RL, as new technology is introduced, our older buildings become antiques. Sometimes being restored and revamped using more modern building techniques, sometimes left untouched.

To compound this, any scripting in monuments has a greater risk of being "phased out" llSmoke and llFire become particles, ect.

As far as trying to promote monuments that have a long staying-power, I think the idea of having Linden-sponsored / Linden protected builds would nice, the landscape of SL changes much faster than a real-life landscape, and to have some Linden-sanctioned monuments that we can be sure "will always be like that" or "aren't going anywhere" seems like a good proposal to me.

Your right, things come and go pretty quick. The only other things I can think of, that are resident owned, that have been around since beta is the waterfall in Clementina, Chips place in Freelon, and Harold and Joans place in Kissling.

I like the change, I would go mad if I had to look at the same build all the time. But, I do like seeing old landmarks and think they do have a place and should be preserved in some form or another.

ps. Take lots of pictures.

The fact that new build options/techniques become available over time makes the idea of permanent monuments that much more compelling, because they could be an excellent record if the evolution of the capabilities of second life and its residents.

I think this is an excellent idea, and one that could really inspire some excellent work. If LL would hold a competition, maybe once per year, for a permanent installation in SL... I think a ton of people would give it a shot.

And I think by varying the requirements, one year having more stringent prim limits, another year having more specific size requirements, one year not allowing any particles, etc... the grid would end up with a good collection of unique, well crafted, and hopefully "epic" landmarks.

I agree, although, just to bring up another view; change is life. The fact that no structure is truly permanent in SL brings liberation, too; You don't have to deal with a bunch of the past hanging around if you don't care to.

But that's just devil's advocacy; I'd love to see the void sims have STUFF in them, much like the Great Wall.

Also, you forgot the Man as a nigh-on immutable SL landmark!

LF,

I read with interest your post. One possible reason SL's landscape is ever-so-changing is because SL lifespans are inexhoribly short. Maybe even fruitfly short.

The majority of SL's citizens come and go within a short time span, leaving no [virtual] trace of evidence they ever [cyber] existed.

What an interesting thought that is... that in SL there have already existed many hundreds of generations. Each generation linked to the previous by a threadbare of common culture and experiences.

Does that mean people like me and Lordfly are 4000 years old?

May I cite the Ivory tower Library of prims ? And the huge trees of Luskwood ?

I miss Rivendell

I am extremely interested in this topic and I'm glad someone other than me brought it up.



What is even worse than absolute impermanence is the fact that a cherished monument *can* be resurrected on a whim, if proper precautions are taken.

In fact, everyone can have a copy.

The very things that make something cherishable: time, location, uniqueness - are less than nothing here.

We are humans, we need continuity. The point of a persistent world is persistence, and it would serve us all well to have more of it, even if some must be a little bit contrived. The terrain feature is a good example of this, and well done. Imagine coming back to SL after a week, with the land and seas completely rearranged.

My place in Afton has been around since the sim came up... check it out, Kris Ritter made it, looks pretty good.

I've tried to maintain a landmark in SL. I built the Space Needle in Miramare more than a year ago. I've moved it a couple of times, but it's still there. Everyone is welcome to stop in and hang out. It has an observation deck with a Terrabucks Coffee, and a Lounge with a bar on the lower level.

Granted, with the time dilation now it's kinda painful to... (although, going by the sim stats, for once it's not Deevyde's fault. )

I keep arguing in favor of building the Hanging Gardens so we can improve the overall health of SL's simulators and population, but Philip doesn't want it. He keeps teching up and building developer units instead.

I get this joke!

Funny thing about time itself... it passes, yet it does not go obsolete.

A lot of the older sims are well-preserved... in part due to Lifetime accounts. SL has a lot of transience and persistence, uh mostly transience... I wonder if there could be a Linden contest for "SL culture" to build some great schtuff on 4096 m2s, with winners (likely multiple) being awarded Lifetime accounts so their goodies can stay. That doesn't rule out tearing down the build shortly afterwards if it's decided making something else would be more profitable, but it'd surely make for a fascinating "Where are they now?" down the road.

Heh, well, while a lot of my own personal builds stay in flux, I intend to keep my more passionate endeavors - like the fields of Can'Ka no Rey up in Neualtenburg - for as long as the sim and myself are around.

If only because the I sure as heck don't want be the one to bring down the Tower.

Hahaha... to me, that's almost as sacrilegious as some sort of religious blasphemy. Or one of those movies where two stoner dudes from the future end up setting all the dinosaurs on fire in search of a bigger, better blunt.

Though the central "big tree observatory" in Luskwood could be done better now, I dont think it's going to change. It's too much of a fixture and a symbol.

I've been here over a year now and I've never seen or even heard of either of these ! There's one of the problems we're facing, information dissemination in SL is so patchy to say the least.

Only last night I was discussing ( and talked out of ! ) pulling down Lauks Nest which has been around for several months now. The problem's that I want to do something else and don't have the spare land to do it right now. As long as we have to build on land we rent from LL I can't see permanence happening unless we're commissioned by LL.

I'd love to see some really permanent scructures, but surely the very nature of a "virtual" world is ephemeral, nothing has a long life cycle. We enter the world, build, buy more land, move on, the next owner deletes our work etc.

It is really something in a digital state that "grime" must often be simulated. Decay is something that is synthetically added on by dodge and burn effects or various other filters and what-have-you-not, as opposed to being a natural state of leaving something alone too long.

I remember working with synthesizers and finding too many "clean" tones so I had to lofi them to add "character", since the digital instrumentation wasn't going out of tune on its own.

There are many treasures to explore in oldworld sims that have been there a long time.

Another landmark would have to be the Governor's Mansion in Clementina. And what about the Spook House by Sinatra Cartier right outside of Stillman's telehub? What about the Stillman Free Bazaar—the goodies may change but the basic structure hasn't. Up the hill, Cyrus's bears and Juro's house have been there for ages. Keep on walking.

I love this idea... the thought of something that can truly be considered 'permanent' in SL is intensely appealing!

Although, rather than just arbitrary landmarks I'd love to see some buildings that have a function as well as being beautifully built and scripted. The Ivory Tower Library of Prims is an excellent example of what I'm talking about.

How about something along the lines of the great Library of Alexandria for all of those useful code snippets and back-issues of the SL Herald? OK, maybe not a great idea but you get my point...

I just thought of two more structures, both in bad disrepair: The Governor's Mansion in Bonifacio and the Jessie Wall.

both were linden maintained, but have since been reduced in grandeur due to bit-rot, bugs, prim return, and the like.

People have tried rebuilding, but the projects never get off the ground.

Is it evne worth it to attempt to resurrect these buildings? Or does their currently ruined state resonate better with folks in SL?

In case you hadn't noticed, I'm very much in favor of more permanent structures in SL, specifically user-created and then maintained by the Lindens. While Ryan, Eric, and Ben Linden do make some nice structures (the oil rig, the moth temple, the weird wall up north), it IS 'our world, our imagination'.

So what could we do that is at once unique to SL, plays to SL's strengths and culture, and is worth preserving for many years?

LF

I'm all about this. Although I'm equally keen on preserving linden builds too. Wish I could have seen the old boardwalk in Clara. Glad we have one in Boardman.




The Linden Bridges, The Ivory Tower of Primitives, The Arch de Linden Grande in Natoma. I'd love to see Salazar Jack's Brownstones in Grignano kept forever, they have housed many new players (myself included) and have been around for about a year and a half now, maybe more. There are so many more I'd like to see kept, I'm a sentimental slob.

We have a group to maintain the Governor's Mansion in Clemintina. It gets checked over regularly to replace missing prims and such. There's even a small history museum in the basement. If you notice anything that needs doing, please IM Jill Linden or anyone in the group. Jake's cliffside stage area in Clem has been around since at least November, 2003. I have pictures of me there my first day inworld. Venice in Bonifacio, the flight tower in Grey, and the train station in Slate are also quite old.

I live in a large historic district and belong to local and state historic preservation societies. The fundamental battle always boils down to funding. The sense of forever losing something old and unique has to overwhelm the desire to spend money elsewhere. Owning SL land is not inexpensive, even for a group. And the idea of having some one-year-old build sitting there, in your way, til the end of time, when you're paying all that money just doesn't wash. Preservation, in the sense of original builds in original locations, at this stage, is going to require foresight, not heartstrings.

Siggy moved out of Taber and sold me his land to attach to Fate Gardens. I've left his palace intact because it's been inworld longer than I have. Sure I could use that land, think about it sometimes; for all its "historical" and sentimental value, it's only a two-year-old build that could be copied in a few days if a builder with Sig's talent put their mind to it. The fact that he could terraform some land and assemble a copy of it anywhere on the grid is very jarring to my sense of real world preservation.

As old as I am inworld, my thoughts are still swirling on this issue.

I do somewhat like the idea of the Lindens comissioning residents to build landmarks in some of the voids. I'd have to support residential voting for them though. The Lindens are too locked into duplicating absolute gravity based real world appearance to accept and approve anything else.

One more point, the first thing I'll implement when we have some way of teleporting people directly to grid coords will be a historical tour. You know even a group teleport invitation would work for something like that if it were guided.

Better stop typing or Eggy will have the thread moved to Feature Suggestions.