Dear Lindens
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crucial Armitage
Clothing Designer
Join date: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 838
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08-11-2006 21:32
From: Cindy Claveau No. To be honest I'm a little disheartened now. I feel sad that I've allowed myself to trust yet another online dev company and allowed myself to believe they actually care. I don't want to become jaded, but it's happening.
Thanks for the compliments, everyone. Every word of it was from my heart. I to have similar sentiments I am very very discouraged that they are taking away an integral part of what IS second life for many. I can not fathom how residents will communicate with each other. in world communication is good in small groups but you usually need to be friends with someone to talk with about the issues. and even then its just between the few you are with. no one can comment on your conversation cause they will not even know it existed. There will be no way to get the views and opinions of other residents. I for one have come to rely on the forums for information and even entertainment at times. I am very saddened at the current time and see this move as a giant step backwards for second life. I truly do not know what i will do 3ed party sights will not do for one simple reason no one will know about them its bad enough many don't know about the SL forums how the hell are they going to find out about 3ed party sights. All third party sights will do will splinter the community there will be some that go to most sights but i think most will settle on one or two. so every one will have there favorite and everyone will be splintered up to dozens of forums and the whole sense of community in the forums will be lost. there is only one thing that can express my current feeling and its 
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cinda Hoodoo
my 2cents worth
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 951
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signed....
08-12-2006 01:40
Great work Cindy, i too am in customer service for many years, and i have screamed and (flamed im sure) in the forums that whatever they are doing in LL, does not come close to what excellence in our profession requires. Technology is great, but they seem too often to forget that they are in a service industry, without the customer, SL is dead.
I too agree the blog is not a satisfactory replacement for the forums, they are hard to follow, no one can retort or bantor, theres no free flowing thought..and its extremely open to censorship, and that will always lurk in its shadow..and i wont be a bit surprised to see the blog phased out as well. LL once again does not want to hear its customer, it does not want to act on customer needs, its saying loud and clear, pay us if you want to, we could care less.
I will miss the forums, i have learned so much here, the populus of SL has shared more how to's here than SL ever even tried to do, and its been a wonderful resource. I am just so sad that they cant hear the banging on the door, and once again, just want the noise to stop...
All the hope i have left for SL is the customer, and the spirit that they bring to the game, we are the soul, the breath that makes the grid come alive, without us you are an empty land taking up space on the net..
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Elle Pollack
Takes internets seriously
Join date: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 796
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08-12-2006 01:44
A tiny voice from the other side: IANAL(inden), and that's probably a good thing because I've been slacking on the job as a ResMod. The forum ARs in my mailbox haven't been touched for weeks and I only occasionaly log onto the forums to read them the old fashioned way. On paper, I think the ResMod program might have worked if the forum community(ies?) had acually gotten behind it. But only a dozen people actually seriously stepped up, and we haven't gotten the new blood that would have allowed the original "rotation" of moderators to happen. On the Linden end, Torley told us that she tried to recruit other Liasons into helping with the forums, to no avail. So after the less determined and less even-tempered people either dropped out or found themselves not up to the job, there's only four to six of us left plus Torley (Jeska and Robin haven't helped with mod stuff for the last few months at least). A few mods publicly "lost it" at times trying to pick up the slack (I've lost it too, but I kept the resulting ranting private among my circle of friends.), which certianly hasn't helped our popularity. I'll be honest, I never expected ResModing to be fun, easy or without criticism, but at this point in time, I'm not even sure I'd want to be paid to do the job. I've come around to the opinion that if the forums were to be saved, LL would have to hire full-time moderators and tighten up their behaviour policies (which has started to happen, but too little too late). It may not be "scalable", but Bioware, Blizzard and a ton of other game companies with large communities do it in addition to having voulenteer moderators, and they somehow manage, although they have their share of crap as well. I do agreee with the rationale for the changes. I don't believe the forums are the "voice of the people", and ranting about issues here is not an effective way to bring the issue to the Linden's attention. The most effective ways that I know of seem to be the e-mail channels (bug reports) and talking with Lindens directly. They're really exemplilary listeners, particaurly if you try to be calm and reasonable in return. (This perception is helped by the fact that I'm very cynical about "mob power" when it tries to assume the position of vox populi and you end up with kangaroo courts.) I don't know if the blog is the best answer, but we'll see. Those who keep saying that LL (or for that mater, have said so about the ResMods) wants to "silence the users" are way off base. Instead, they're working on ways to hear you better. As an asside, I want to throw out a question originaly asked by someone who no longer posts here (though in my own words): In the world that we are trying to create as the Metaverse, why is the main channel of communication mass a web forum that exists outside the world and only serves a small precentage of the people? Torley posted the following in the ResMod forum back in June (I appologize to her for not asking permission before quoting it here, but the cat is out of the bag and I don't think thexe excerpts will do any harm, nor are they particaurly sensitive material IMO. Better to ask forgiveness if I'm wrong...). It's an excerpt from a much longer post. From: Torley Linden
I've been watching for the rise of Resident-run forums that provide things we cannot. Several dichotomies began to really bother me over the last while, such as:
* Why we have Mature regions but no forum equivalent?
* How you can own your own land but not really a parallel to that on the forums? Apart from the group forums (which are unscalable and which've badly slowed down the loading speed when I'm doing admin things as well)
* Inworld has wide open spaces, but on the forums, even with Ignore buttons, all too often, there are ugly brawls like in a smelly, cramped subway.
* Simply put, why don't we have better inworld communication tools to self-organize? And is that fundamental enough to say "yes" and allocate resources to?
I believe so!
(...)
Historically, a lot of things have already been tried. There was a "rants" forum and that got awful hostile, from what I hear. Removing General was also attempted, but the warring spewed out into other areas. *sigh*
And it's best that, hey, if some people wanna swear or post pictures of prim vaginas, we should let 'em--on their own forums! I'm no prude, and I don't want us being in the net nanny business. At the same time, the limitations of the software don't allow for greater flexibility. And I don't want these forums being a crutch, a leaky life preserver where there's a better one in the distance.
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*********************************************** "Ya'll are so cute with your pitchforks and torches ..." ~Brent Linden SL streams a world, can you also stream a mind?
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Siobhan OFlynn
Evildoer
Join date: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 1,140
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08-12-2006 01:54
Cindy, that was an eloquent and heartfelt post. Thank you. Too bad it's too late for it to be reprinted on a full page ad in the M2 being distributed at SLCC. I'd even pay for it.
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From: Starax Statosky Absolute freedom is heavenly. I'm sure they don't have a police force and resmods in heaven. From: pandastrong Fairplay omgeveryonegetoutofmythreadrightnowican'ttakeit From: Soleil Mirabeau I'll miss all of you assholes. 
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Yiffy Yaffle
Purple SpiritWolf Mystic
Join date: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 2,802
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08-12-2006 03:41
Weeeeee ^.^
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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08-12-2006 04:40
From: Cindy Claveau No. To be honest I'm a little disheartened now. I feel sad that I've allowed myself to trust yet another online dev company and allowed myself to believe they actually care. I don't want to become jaded, but it's happening.
Thanks for the compliments, everyone. Every word of it was from my heart. Yes, you are quite right, Cindy. Your original posting was well put, and I share your views entirely. I have been with Second Life for a while now, and I have seen the slow change from a company that shared a vision with its customers to one that is becoming more and more totalitarian in the way it runs its creation. It seems that it is literally impossible for the customers to communicate with the Lindens, and any 'communication' that comes the other way is in the form of mission statements and corporate jargon. I trusted the Lindens, especially having come from a virtual world where corruption and lack of interest in customer service were rife. The Lindens, at that time, seemed like a breath of fresh air. Now that air has become tainted. The level of unhappiness in the user base matches that of the previous world I came from. I have gone from being an enthusiastic advocate of Second Life to currently asking myself whether I really belong here. I wonder whether the progression I have seen is inevitable? Irrespective of whether they have self-government or not, does it always happen that the customers ultimately suffer in this way? If ever I come across another virtual world in the early stages of its making, I will do my utmost to work for a system where scrutiny and transparency are among the main priorities. It seems that only in that way will we prevent a mess like this one. 
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Shonique Shilton
Registered User
Join date: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 10
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08-12-2006 05:00
From: Grimalkin Thereian Thank you for saying that so well. I don't post alot, almost never. But I do read the forums, they are a great source of both general and very specific info. It will be a great lost to me, and to other lurkers. Amen.... Admits to be a *Lurker* from the day she signed up...
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
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08-12-2006 06:02
After more then 2 and a half years of stalking these forums (having too thin a skin to actually withstand posting here very often), I read them for a PULSE of SL as a community(and to forum stalk Cindy  ) . Thru all the flaming and back-biting, thru the trolls and griefers, whether I am active in world or cant bring myself to log on for weeks on end, I come here almost every morning with my coffee to take the temperture of SL, see how its feeling today, see whats making its tummy hurt now. I occasionally will read other forums/blogs/feeds when something I find pretenant is being surpressed here, but THIS forum, associated with the company to whom I pay my membership fee, my land tier, and from whom I purchase currency, THIS forum is SUPPOSED to be a direct line from my wallet to said company. I came to SL directly from TSO, whose wise and caring company also closed down its official forums just about the time it experienced a mass exodus from its little world. Will closing these forums produce the same sort of reaction to SL? At first, no, simply because SL has so much more to offer. But it will surely fragment an already fragmented community, disassociating players from from the feeling that anyone at the company they pay thier money to give a shit about them. With no clear place to go for information, many will simply wander away. If a company as large and well established in gaming as Maxis failed in its attempt to succesfully cross into the MMORPG world specifically because of thier lack of customer support for the online version of their most successful PC game ever, why is it that Linden Labs feels compelled to follow suit?
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Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
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08-12-2006 07:03
Thank you for your post, Elle. Your comments on the resmod program were enlightening, though I don't know why any company would expect to manage something so complex and tumultous as this forum with only volunteers. I do want to point out something else, however: From: Elle Pollack I don't believe the forums are the "voice of the people", and ranting about issues here is not an effective way to bring the issue to the Linden's attention. The most effective ways that I know of seem to be the e-mail channels (bug reports) and talking with Lindens directly. They're really exemplilary listeners, particaurly if you try to be calm and reasonable in return.
It wasn't just a rant here or there. If something had the concern of the community, the board would always have multiple threads on it -- someone else in this thread called it a "pulse" which I think is the perfect word for it. Admittedly, only a small percentage of residents ever post here but any statistician will tell you that all you need for a decent survey is somewhere between 5 and 10% of a population (yes, I realize there's no control over sampling here - the only people who post are those who like to post). But to assume that this didn't serve a purpose of being a conduit to the Lindens, or that that's the main reason it exists, is to also make two false assumptions: 1. It was also and primarily a conduit for us residents between each other. I have met more people on the forums who are now on my friends' list than I can name - people I consider to be valuable voices inside SL. Furthermore, I only need to go back about 3 months to note that two of the SL groups I've recently joined actually germinated here. Both of them were responses to major SL issues (the verification changes and the rampant theft of IP). Could we have formed through other boards and blogs? Perhaps - but nowhere else nearly as effectively as having a central germination point. 2. Whether or not we actually got a response from a Linden -- whether or not they ever even read the board -- there was a catharsis to posting our concerns here. Like I said in my original post, perceptions become reality when it comes to customer service. That perception right now is that the Lindens don't have time for us. We already got that hint in the way our ARs have been handled and in the way corporate decisions are made without any input from customers. The closing of the forums only confirms what we were already feeling - having a million customers must be more important than keeping the ones who got you there.
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kerunix Flan
Registered User
Join date: 3 Sep 2005
Posts: 393
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08-12-2006 07:12
DAOC, a failure ?
This good old MMORPG is still up and running well with a lot of player ... despite the huge competition (like WoW).
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Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
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08-12-2006 07:19
From: kerunix Flan DAOC, a failure ? That's what I call it when your subscriber numbers fall from over a quarter of a million to barely 100,000 in one year. And still falling. It's what I call it when the game company is swallowed up cheap by EA (aka the "Antichrist of game companies"  . Failure? Yep.
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Senior Ambassador
Registered User
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 4
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08-12-2006 07:23
I've been lurking these forums for years and it's sad to see them gone with the wind. Instead of crying over it and pointing out all the 'bad" stuff why don't we get (more) involved with what's coming next. Who's to say the grass wont be greener on other side? I always thought it makes more sense to do all of this in-world; After all this is supposed to be Second Life not VBulletin chat fest. Let the Lindens make the big decisions because they understand where they need to focus they're energy best. Remember, they did start all this and remarkably it's still up and running. Therefore they must be doing something right. Besides...you can say so much more on 3rd party sites that would get resmod'd here.
Regards, Tre
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Elror Gullwing
Registered User
Join date: 6 Sep 2004
Posts: 306
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Customer Service Facts.....
08-12-2006 09:55
Great post by the OP.... Very impressive background and experience - and obviously very knowledgeable and articulate.
The following are U.S. Industry Marketing and Customer Service results from many years of industry-wide surveys and trending.
Fact: 96% of your dissatisfied cusomers don't complain. They just "quit" you.
Fact: Dissatisfied customers will tell 9-10 other people about their poor treatment or experience with your products/services.
Fact: Satisfied / Happy customers will tell only 4-5 people about your products/services.
Fact: The Reasons Customers "quit" you
20% - Perceived indifference and poor attitude by employees and/or management, 40% - Unexpected outcome or experience with the product or services they ordered, 40% - Customer error in ordering your product / services. (Always the company's fault, of course.).
So, I would assume those vocal few who do take the time to provide feedback (positive, negative, and downright ugly) probably represent the 4% of the customer base who do take the time to complain about poor customer service and product performance.
I am sure there has been the discussions, reports, charts and graphs in the exectutive team meetings about the cost / benefit of the Forums. Why continue to assume the burden, both technical and financial, only to hear from what has to be a small percentage of the total resident/members population?
Answer: Go back to the first statisitic - Only 4% of dissatisfied customers actually bother to complain. The rest just either put up with the poor products and/or customer service, or just quietly leave.
Finally: Another benefit of shutting down most of the Resident Forums: "No news is good news"....
End Note: Quiet Thoughts - by Phil over Lunch with the Team:
ahhhh.... Lunch at the Piperade - on the patio. Nice. A somewhat exotic blend of French and Basque cuisine, but well worth the expense. Besides, things have gone much better since those Forums and that small, pesky vocal minority of whiners have been shut down. Cost savings right to the bottom line, too. Cool. hmmm... I wonder if Gerald has that nice red, the Campillo Gran Reserva I heard about from Robin. Only $35.00 a bottle. What the hell, all is good - let's order a couple bottles with lunch. The team deserves some rewards. "Oh, Waiter!"......
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Crissaegrim Clutterbuck
Dancing Martian Warlord
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
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08-12-2006 11:58
From: Selador Cellardoor I wonder whether the progression I have seen is inevitable? Irrespective of whether they have self-government or not, does it always happen that the customers ultimately suffer in this way? A perusal of utopian literature and commentary would shed light on these questions. All of this has been encountered before, and not merely in virtual worlds. Of all people, Ulrika in her early crusader/utopia-builder iteration (before she became the clown-fatale of Second Life) was most correct: The problems encountered here were ideological and community-based, and therefore completely political - technical and even commercial issues were a distant second. LL never gave wise priority to social and political dynamics and community-building, preferring instead to rely on a sloppy, nonsensical libertarian concept of "letting the people do it." In truth, that concept was LindenSpeak for "we don't have a clue about how to proceed." In fact, the utopian premise of Second Life itself, as outlined by Philip Rosedale and Corey Ondrejka in numerous "white papers", was contradictory: a place where you could construct any fantasy life you wanted, but also a place where capitalism and hierarchy dominated, and you needed to make money to buy familiar things like scripted cars and land. When "the people" constructed a world that the company regarded as not commercially or aesthetically viable, LL flipped from too little control to too much - which shows how tenuous their concepts and plans are. So Ewan Took from another thread is right - the forum issue, the Torley issue, all of these issues are symptomatic and merely the latest, clearest indications of LL's failure in the community area. The problem with virtual worlds is very similar to the ancient problems of utopian politics, commerce, and community - in fact, I'd argue that they're the same, because virtual worlds are, by definition, utopias. The technical problems are easiest, the commercial problems are harder, and the political and social issues are worst of all. And the leadership gives priority and resources to the easiest first, and the hardest last. LL can either abandon the idea of community and serve as a simple platform developer, or they need to reorder their priorities radically. The kind of draconian decisions they're making now are merely bandaids slapped on top of sucking wounds.
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Eclipse Harbinger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 2
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08-12-2006 12:07
Well said. I hope you posted a copy of this as a comment on the blog entry, since that will guarentte that a Linden will read it.
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PetGirl Bergman
Fellow Creature:-)
Join date: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,414
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08-13-2006 05:37
From: Cindy Claveau Dear Philip, Robin, Torley, et al:
I don't want to add any more noise than we already have, but I do think that the closing of the forums is symptomatic - symbolic, if you will - of other things that are going on with Second Life. Things that I haven't seen addressed in the multiple complaints and dismissal threads today. I hope you take the time to read this and give it consideration. I'll try to stay on point and not get long-winded.
Brief background: I have almost 15 years' experience in customer service with two different corporations. I've taken countless seminars on handling customers and can add my own experience to my views. I have also sysoped on several other boards in the past, notably 2 gamers boards and the old Sony Everquest boards. I'm fully aware that the resources required to maintain these things seems to outrun their apparent return to the company. I understand that, from a bottom-line standpoint. I am also aware that web boards, due to their anonymity coupled with the high level of emotional investment by customers, can be cesspools of whining, griping and flaming. That comes with the territory. This board actually has had less of the noise than many others I've frequented.
But it would also be fair to say that, for every 10 decibels of noise they also produce 1 or 2 decibels of useful signal. Signal that cannot really be captured with blogs or third party forums -- and that, mainly because the Second Life forums are the Average SL Joe/Jane's most obvious conduit to both the Lindens and to other residents.
The focus of any customer relations department should always be customer perceptions. Not facts, not data, not corporate bottom line (though that is indirectly affected) -- perceptions are a different thing. They are mostly emotional, mostly anecdotal, but bear importance out of all proportion to their factual base. Companies who ignore customer perception do so at the peril of their business. As Sony (SWG). Ask Mythic (DAOC). Ask Tulga (Horizons). It would be over-simplifying things to claim that the failure of all 3 of those MMOGs was due to bad customer service, but it would also be accurate to point out that customer service, or lack of it, played a major role.
What is Customer service? Listening to your customers. Giving them a central place where their opinions can be expressed. Responding to Abuse Reports with more than "We heard you". Actively seeking their input before major policy changes are implemented for such things as opening up your registration process to anyone with a computer. You missed an ideal opportunity to explain your thinking before the event (thus reducing the furor afterward) as well as an ideal opportunity to hear us tell you that anti-griefing tools were totaly inadequate to cope with such an influx. Instead, we got a Linden blog entry 3 or 4 days after the change which claimed that ARs had not increased, despite our direct personal experience to the contrary. It was an unspoken message that said "We don't really care what you think, we're doing it anyway."
Companies must create a vision and pursue that vision in order to survive. The Lindens' vision as we've perceived it lately has been that you want to be international. You want one million subscribers regardless of the impact on the social fabric of Second Life. And, more than anything, the perception we get is that you believe that the Second Life concept is so technologically/culturally ahead of anyone else that you needn't fear competition.
You were the first company to grant IP rights to its subscribers (bravo- it's what brought me to SL). You are the only MMO right now that features 99% user-created content and, despite the chaotic, buggy nature of that content you still manage to keep the grid running most of the time. All these things are landmarks in the world of virtual communities and you are to be applauded so far.
But please, do not forget that technology alone will never keep you safe. If you can invent it, someone else will copy it. When the race evens up, the victory will not go to the snazziest interface or the largest number of subscribers. It will go to the world where users feel as though they matter, that they're listened to, and that they have a voice.
When you shut the forums down, you will be cutting a major resource drain. You say you will be redirecting those resources into more productive areas that will hopefully improve Second Life. I hope that happens -- but do not dismiss this board as completely useless, please. For every poster there are probably 10 lurkers who never speak up. For every flame war, there is vital information sharing, connections, and friendships formed here that will be difficult to replace on other boards or on blogs. Shutting down the board feels like you're shutting us up. And when that happens enough, most of us won't scream and rant. We'll just go away.
Ask Sony. Ask Mythic. Ask Tulga. I bump this very well written post by - I agree.. and I hope more of us agree... to it.. /Tina
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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08-13-2006 06:34
Eloquent post Cindy. This statement stood out to me: From: Cindy Claveau The focus of any customer relations department should always be customer perceptions. I believe perceptions can be as important as realities. If your customers percieve they are not being listened to, somewhere along the line, you've failed, regardless of whether you've actually heard them.
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Copper Surface
Wandering Carroteer
Join date: 6 Jul 2005
Posts: 157
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Hear, hear.
08-13-2006 06:36
I join (hopefully) many others in support of this message.
Frankly, forum drama was still new to me a year ago and I very soon decided I'd leave it alone wherever possible, but if General goes, I realise I will probably miss it even if just for one reason:
If I feel like reaching out to other users of SL in general - perhaps I want their opinion, or I want serious discussion, or I need advice, or even just to joke around, I rarely go flying around the grid for it. I go straight to the forums where I know there are people who like discussion, like giving advice, love joking around and are literally waiting and watching for the opportunity.
I'm not saying that every other person you meet in-world is a mindless griefer and/or otherwise unpleasant person, but personally, the general forum has given me easy access to this part of the SL community, which to be honest, I find quite likeable. Don't be getting a big head, now.
If this forum goes, general discussion will just spill over to other, possibly user-managed forums. May be better or worse in the end - I don't know, but whichever the case, SL loses both the burden AND the opportunity of hosting this part of the SL community.
To me, the change doesn't sound like a Death Knell for Ess Ell. I will still be sticking around, but hey, I'm an optimist.
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John Toonie
Registered User
Join date: 3 Jul 2005
Posts: 58
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08-13-2006 07:00
Great Post Cindy. It really did voice alot of the concerns I've had with this new removing the fourms. For the last 2 months I've gotten so tired of all these bugs, problems, and general changes all over the place I've tried to become a more active participant in sl "Politics". I started going to the preview grid and gathering bugs, reporting them all to get nothing more then a blank email from LL, I spend my free time finding bugs for their system and all I get is a blank email, TY TY. Then when the update actually comes out, their still there! So I've given up on that, why would I waste my mornings on a preview grid, when they won't even listen? Lately I get the idea that LL isn't looking to advance SL at all, they want to cut it loose, IE cut all Lindens off the project and only have phone support, while they all move on to making bigger and better games. I've seen alot of companies do this, then 6 - 12 months later they release their secret little title to the world which they've hyped up for 2 months like its no ones business, and it flops.
Heres one thing that really really bugs me, I called phone support to get a billing issue fixed, I got on hold for 30 min, then got an answering machine. At 11AM ON A MONDAY! what do they only have one operator now? That alone has made me rethink my presence here on SL. If the company keeps going like they are, they won't last the winter. LL needs to stop trying to milk the game and pinch pennies, and just give the people the service they deserve.
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Inigo Chamerberlin
Registered User
Join date: 13 May 2006
Posts: 448
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08-13-2006 10:36
From: Cindy Claveau No. To be honest I'm a little disheartened now. I feel sad that I've allowed myself to trust yet another online dev company and allowed myself to believe they actually care. I don't want to become jaded, but it's happening. Thanks for the compliments, everyone. Every word of it was from my heart. Cindy, don't let it get you down, all said and done it's not worth the grief. Things will develop as they will. You said it all though. Which is what matters. Thanks.
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ninjafoo Ng
Just me :)
Join date: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 713
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08-13-2006 12:28
From: Cindy Claveau ...... Claps
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FooRoo : clothes,bdsm,cages,houses & scripts
QAvimator (Linux, MacOS X & Windows) : http://qavimator.org/
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Axel Truss
ssurT lexA
Join date: 2 Feb 2006
Posts: 251
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08-13-2006 12:47
im leaving SL if they take away forums. Maning, ill still have my business running. making me tht L$. but i wont be logging on much, only to answer iomportant IM's. so. thanks LL, again, this past 2 months you have managed to let the tightly woven array of sims and subcultures unravel into a ball of chaos...*sobs*...only the good die young
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MANIC CASINO!
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