LL and griefing

So I wanted to discuss a griefing incident I encountered last night to see if my situation happens a lot. I'll be careful not to name names, but IM me if you want them.

I logged out earlier in the day on Sandbox Island where I was talking to a friend. I don't like being there and always ramp up on shields - no matter what the land settings - because that place is a way zone most days. When I logged back in, I accidentally left it on last location instead of home.

So I logged into the middle of a nuke and my shields going nuts from a gun being shot at me. So I nicely pointed out to the guy with the gun that the sandbox is a no weapons sim. When I saw in his profile that it was his first day (no payment info, big surprise), I even searched for combat sims and offered to show him some. His responce - to swear and shoot at me, of course.

I am a member of a group that tries it's best to protect newbies and others from griefer attacks as best we can within the TOS, so I im'd some friends to come and show some strength in numbers. I filed an AR, and called a Linden at the same time.

An online Linden responded that they weren't on shift. Ok, fine. But I have a job in RL where I can't ignore calls, or I may loose my job. Maybe this should be one of those jobs folks. If you are logged in as a Linden, then expect to act like one...

On the advice of the Linden who was offduty, I used Live Help. After 15 minutes and two tries, a Linden showed up. During this time, I had held the griefer with an invisible cage to stop him from his continued weapons firing after triying to talk nice for now 25 minutes. I explained to the Linden upon her arrival why I had done that and there didn't seem to be a problem.

This is where things get wierd. Of course, when the Linden arrived, I released my hold, stepped back, and assumed things would be taken care of. Nothing. Ok, the Linden is watching and figuring out where people stand here. This I understand. But when the griefer summoned two friends, rezzed a gun turrot, and began SHOOTING THE LINDEN, she still did nothing, except talk nicely. The now three griefers proceeded to shoot me, the Linden, and all of my friends, while she nicely talked to them. Needless to say, we all just left. Got sick of the attack messages from the shields.

What the bloody h$## was that all about? A Linden letting those people shoot the place up right in front of her? I've never summoned a Linden before, since I'm usually on private land when this stuff happens. Is this how little they care about us? I'm one more incident away from canceling my membership, selling my land, and packing up - like so many others.

Tell me what you all think.

I'm worried about the lack of incidents like this showing up on the police blotter. There have been a few residents dealt with for verbal abuse but none for the kind of behaviour you describe. Why is that? There are obviously plenty of similar incidents occuring. And it will only alienate the kind of people SL needs. Lets face it, no one needs people who spend their in-world time shooting the place up. Who'd miss them?

Albion

This is how you deal with griefers.

1. Go to Kyrons starwars mega store

2. Buy his R2D2

3. Find griefer

4. Set power to 100000000000000000000000

5. Target griefer

6. Fire and watch him as he is blown out of the sim

hmmms, welp i guess there are always two sides to every story. I am an Admin in a private estate that seems to be very popular with greifers etc. (if you can guess which estate i'll give you a cookie ) and yep people call on me all hours of the day and night when im online to come to the aid from either greifers, or disputes etc. which is fine most of the time, but sometimes you just want to build, or socialize, or what ever else people do in this game (aka having fun) the way live help is suposed to work, is posts the problem to all online agents, some of which are off duty, some are on, and it lets them manage their resources.
remember some lindens like to beable to come on and hang out with their friends n stuff too when they arnt on duty. some use Alts to do that, others use their linden accounts for that.

as for the not doing anything with the greifer... i hope something was done after you left.

just my two cents

Well, first of all, I understand about the live help thing. That's why I used search first. I don't expect a non-Linden to come to my aid at the drop of a hat. You deserve your fun too, just like me.
And I have no problem with a Linden coming on as an alt off duty to hang out. I think it's a great idea, actually. But when they have the Linden name, they should be there to help. When cops wear the badge in RL, they are expected to live up to it. I look at the Linden name as a badge of sorts - maybe I'm wrong in that assumption.
And the Linden left before I did last night, so I know she didn't do anything. Now I didn't expect a medal - I did technically violate TOS after all - but at least a message saying she needed to consult with some one before banning, etc would have been nice.
I'm just at a loss here...

hmmms welp how new was the linden account? sometimes there are new lindens that are still being trained etc. and not to stray too far off topic, but if anyone knows the linden prayer i need it to make a point on another thread

Based on a past experience there is another factor. A friend of mine was a highly ranked GM in an online game. He could log into his GM account from home but there were many things he could not do from there.

A lot of times "GM tools" are located behind the MMOG's firewall and can't be used by anyone logged on from outside (like that Linden you met possibly).

Ok its official, Second Life is now Quake.

The Linden at home I can buy. It makes sense. But how about a statement like "Please cease this behavior or you will be banned from this sim pending further action at the start of business tomorrow."

All I'm looking for is some assurance that Lindens actually care about the people who are paying for their rent and food...

Could be the Linden was just giving the griefer and his pals enough rope to hang themselves thoroughly? After all, the unwarranted attacks were now being directly witnessed by a Linden. Much stronger 'evidence' than you copying and pasting chat log info onto a notecard. Like having a cop personally witness a crime.

Just a thought.

Oh, and forget about live help for enforcement issues. They can't do squat, even if they have a Linden name on while on duty. Live Help is aparently staffed with volunteers and low-ranking Lindens who have absolutely no authority to do anything on their own initiative, other than offering advice on common issues.

griefing is trully pissing me off,now i have to be walking around with shields,protection gadgets,its like a CIVIL WAR,i try and contact a linden when having trouble but..heh wasting my time most of the times when doing it,EVEN WHEN I AM AT THE MOMENT BEING SHOT,i get an anwser "FILL AN AR"

BAH

I DIDNT JOIN SL TO BE PLAYING WARS-FOR THAT THERE ARE BETTER GAMES

I never visit sandboxes but i get my share of griefers at my home sims... If i am somehow unable to ban one i usually just put them on my target list for my shield (personal ban list ). it will orbit them or whatever is possible in the current sim, to get them away from me. If i ever visit a sandbox i will use it on whoever griefs me. Since LL no longer punishes griefing it's now fair game... Put up your security systems and attack the f*ckers... I'm not usually warlike and i am against such things. But if Ll isn't going to help us then thats about all there is left to do. :/

The important line here is: "And it will only alienate the kind of people SL needs."

Philip needs to keep his pop numbers up so he can keep his corporate partners happy. Once they turn this into their advertising center, Philip will sell out. If they publicize how much griefing is actually going on, and how many suspensions they're actually doing, then they would have to do something about their "open registration" policy. They don't want to do that.

I'll take that cookie now

and yes, a very reliable and awesome admin you are

Griefing only works, if they actually can cause grief - if they get attention. It would be better to just ignore the person, file an abuse report and teleport away or sit on a prim. Holding someone else with a cage is griefing too. You put yourself on the same level as the griefer there. Sorry.

From the Community Standards, which you agreed to abide, it clearly says:

3. Assault
Most areas in Second Life are identified as Safe. Assault in Second Life means: shooting, pushing, or shoving another Resident in a Safe Area (see Global Standards below); creating or using scripted objects which singularly or persistently target another Resident in a manner which prevents their enjoyment of Second Life.

In my oppinion, you are in no position to get any help if you can't even help yourself by teleporting away or ignoring the whole issue. You feed the griefer by giving him attention. You are also the reason, why griefing is so popular. In such a wide open space as SL, I find it hard to believe you had to stay at that particular spot in that particular sandbox....with dozens of other sandboxes around. And a little tipp...try the Newcomb Sandbox...no scripts, no push, or the Plum sandbox. They are the most peaceful sandboxes you can find. If you stay somewhere else where a griefing occurs, and actually participate in griefing, you deserve what you get - what a waste of time. Your Second Life - your imagination.

I dunno about this. I remember one time there was a couple griefers in Waterhead and I messaged Live Help. Lucy Linden came and did a great job. She teleported them out, talking to one, who behaved afterwards, but I don't know what happened to the other. The best part was all the Live Helpers who teleported there to watch.

Sorry, but this sounds a lot like the "advice" we used to get in grade school for dealing with bullies. Just don't react and they won't bother you.

I'm surry, but people who are minding their own business shouldn't have to *leave* because someone else gets off on bullying people.

How about the people who are doining nothing wrong get to stay and continue to do their own thing instead, and the bullies who *are* causing problems and who can't mind their own business and who are attempting to disrupt things for others...how about they get stopped and punished instead?

I think that the people who were doing this should not have been talked to nicely. I think they should instead be premabanned from SL.

The entire reason why griefing of this sort happens in SL is pecause it's tolerated. Enforcment with real penalties, people actually getting kicked out of the game for attacking others, *that* would bring most of the griefing to a screaching halt.

Shoot a person who doesn't want to get shot, get kicked out of SL, *that* is the way it ought to be.

Yes, but what I'm saying is vigilante justice will not help at all, it just fuels it more. And giving them attention is also wrong. I personally have zero tolerance for griefers...if someone behaves in a bad way on any of my land they will find themselves banned from all my land and I will gladly share that info with others. Clearly, if we're unhappy with how the Lindens deal with this, we gotta learn to self-organize and share info about griefers and ban them ourselves.

I disagree. If I an in a public park, and I see someone mugging a little old lady, I have every right to stop the mugger and detain him until the authorities arrive. It's called a citizen's arrest, and it's legal in any civilized country that I have ever travelled to. Indeed, I have a moral and civic duty to do so, if it is at all within my capability.

By your logic, I should turn my back on the assault in progress, and call the cops from the safety of an out of sight phone booth? And allow the assault to continue?

If I had the ability to cage a griefer and prevent him from causing further grief, I would do it in a heartbeat. Just the same as I would knock out a mugger and detain him for the authorities, if I felt able to do so. The griefer's 'right' to his own 'enjoyment of second life' ends when he intentionally starts violating that right for unwilling victims around him.

{EDIT} I will agree that shooting back at him, orbiting him, or otherwise escalating combat is just playing the griefer's game. But not caging him and preventing further assault from taking place. {/EDIT}

Nice RL example...however this is not RL.
Caging and limiting another resident's movement is griefing too. Sorry, exactly that is the misunderstanding many have. In addition it does nothing to stop a griefer effectively (excluding the not so SL UI savy ones of course). All they have to do is sit on the cage or on something else.

If you want or "have" to perform a "civic duty", then tell the victims to just sit down on a prim, file an abuse report and be patient. Add your own abuse report to it, to offer your perspective of what happened too. Then there's also a wonderful mute button. In addition to that there's not much you can "legally" do. I mean, it's up to you if you want to cage a griefer and waste your time with a boring person...if you have to, do it with style and wear a cape. But don't act all surprised if you get in trouble for that as well - afterall you're fighting fire with fire. The best option you have is to do something fun and ignore the griefer.

Yay! cookie for Drizzle-my-Nizzle-bizzle!

This is repeating what others have said, but I am going to say it anyway. I should NOT have to go somewhere else - ever. I was in that sandbox to visit a friend who was building a scripted item - couldn't use a no-script area. I have every right to be there for as long as I wish. That discussion should end at that, IMO.

And I agree that ignoring and reporting works with most griefers. But there are some who aren't just goofing around. Some are in SL for the specific reason of griefing - like the kind that would unload on a Linden. They can't be talked to, ignored, or even held. And doing nothing but TPing away puts a giant "kick me" sign on your back. They will seek you out when you do this. I know - it has happened to me before.

And I'm sorry - but ignoring an attack is as socially irresponsible as the attack itself, I believe. I took no action when I was fired upon - my shields are good enough it didn't do anything. I only held when my friend got caged (and BTW, the sit trick does not work with the good cages/holds). Then I held - to protect others. And I will continue to do so - I am not the kind of person that can turn a blind eye to the misery of others, in SL or RL.

The reason some of these people choose to do this in SL instead of Quake, for example, is because we are easier targets. It's always more fun to win. As long as LL chooses to ignore these issues, I do not intend to be an easy target. I'm not going to run around with a shot gun all the time, but I will continue to defend myself and others once the proper channels fail.

Heh.. kinda hard to just ignore a griefer who buys any of 6 weapons in SL that can send an avatar 6 MILLION meters into the air in one shot (rather terrifying view, in a VR kinda way as your avatar literally disintegrates in mid air and the blackness of space envelops it.. leaving only it's eyballs,.. and doing a TP does not always work as well as it might.. you might have to log out) or, alternately, smash the victims avatar into the ground so hard pieces come off.

Amd they usually have trap weapons that use some tricky scripting and self rezzing prims that can defeat *any* "sit" trick to get away as with the uber-orbiters. Might have to log out.

So, what do you do ? Wear a shield system like the several I know ? Sure.. and at 1.5mS to 3mS of script time each, 5 shielded individuals in a SIM like many I know and *scroooooosh*, the SIM grinds to a halt at 40mS or 50mS script time.

If there were some way, I'd set my SIM to auto teleport / ban individuals that use or carry such stupidity as a weapons system like the ones aforementioned.

And trapping a griefer doe *NOT* violate the TOS. Study it and look at the rules more closely. By engaging in such behavior, the grifer has "consented" to combat play and trapping him is game play that proves you have just "pwned" him..

Yeah.. only go after a griefer who is doing this in front of you to yourself or another individial that complains. Don't go after them deliberately (look up the definition of "vigilante" before using it in ths context).

On my SIM, Avatars wearing those script hogs (saw one with 8.8mS sctipt time.. ye gods, they need to give out LICENSES before letting some folks script ) get ONE warning from me or another EM before having the weapon removed by force and they get no second warning before being banned.

And use of low power weapons gets the same single warning before they get frozen (or trapped) and talked to. They get no second warning.

That's not viginaltism, that's a community protecting itself.

And, trust me, someone who starts using some of the worst tricks there are *DO* get tracked down by the Lindens and kick/banned from SL forever.