New Groups In Preview 1.12

Just gimme the extra ten groups and keep all the rest until it's tested! *grin*

I NEED THE GROUPS!

No because they still own the land and pay the monthly estate fee to LL. We'll buy and sell land on their estates at their pleasure the same way we do on the Linden estates at their pleasure.

Before anyone argues that LL have any more obligation to us than other estate owners, read their TOS which clearly states that LL may close our accounts at any time for no reason and with no refund.

Before anyone argues that LL have more reason to not arbitrarily kick people from the game, consider that estate owners are paying $195 per region and have as much reason to not arbitrarily kick people from their estates.

The group features have worked so far for everything I've tested. It's just marvolous.

The new group features are amazing! I just tested them.

There are a lot of bugs in the client though... group lists not updating, people being members but not being listed, etc.

And lots of clothes issues, clicking on one thing and having it put on something completely different.

But once well tested, these groups will be a GREAT addition.

The new "notices" function is worth it alone.

These features will be a great boon to private sims, and a notable first tiny step towards transforming SL from "a virtual world owned by Linden Lab" to something more open. Certainly, in Neufreistadt, not needing a land-group will be handy!

Sure, Anshe stands to take advantage, but so does NFS, Caledon, any land rental/private sale outfit, for profit or no.

I understand that, and I know we've been through the whole "define selling" debate before. I guess I'm just a lone voice in the wilderness at this point in wishing that LL would focus more on widespread land ownership and cooperative ventures rather than catering to the upper class.

You do get my point that if a dozen people are effectively paying a landlord's tier, and would need to sell in order to recoup their investment, that they ought to have some sort of rights?

Then don't do business with an unreliable landlord, or stay on the mainland, with no landlord but LL. I'm hoping the new tools will make more cooperative/democratic/collective projects feasible... you still have the "single owner" weakpoint, but so long as the money has to come out of a single account, there's little that can be done. But between the new group tools, covenants, and so on, 1.12 should be a great boon towards cooperative ventures.

I'm a llittle confused as to why some think the checklist is geared towards private island sims only. All those features are handy for any sim, and probably more desperately needed on the mainland, if anything, as they currently have very few tools. Can anyone point out what I am missing? Why do you think it's geared to private islands?

I don't understand this. How do you save your photograph to your inventory?

'upload a texture' i presume.

I agree it would be nice to see provision for a bottom-up approach that facilitates collective projects with no single 'owner'.
Owners can already throw out officers that prove themselves jerks. In fact, with the new group tools, one can just limit the ability of officers to be jerks so the problem doesn't really arise.
As to removing an owner... they paid the group creation fee, and they set the rules. You chose to join *their* group, and live by their rules. If you don't like that, leave. If other people don't like that, form your own group where you're the owner.

I agree that there should be tools to allow the owner to delegate more responsibility if they choose to, however as the owner started the group, paid for it and set the rules, I think it is unfair to open them to the possibility of group takeover.... no matter what the owner does.
Groups are volantry associations. There is no case for overthrowing their government (the owner) by force, when you can simply leave the association and set up your own in 60 seconds.





You're on their land. They're not selling it to you, the word 'selling' should be replaced by 'leasing'... where they set the terms of the lease. Either live by their rules or leave. This is not a democracy. They paid for the sim, they set the rules for the sim. If you don't like it - don't buy land there. It really is that simple. Lots of people set prices and rules, and its the customers' job to reward the best ones with their custom. The best ones then grow, and badly behaved estate owners find they lose money and have to close up. Free market.


Correct.


Covenants are, IIRC, just a conveniently placed notecard. The only real new option there is that land on private estates can be resold if the estate owner permits it. IIRC, that lets estate land be listed in 'find->land'.

With regard to your desire to have, say, a security team... If you deed land to a group, and then grant everyone apart from the owner a very restrictive set of permissions on land owned by the group so all they can do is add/del bans and return objects, you have effectively done this.

Will buying land in this Preview Grid have any effect on real grid or your real account at all?

I know it wouldn't make sense for it too but I don't know if has been tested thoroughly.

Mmm 25 groups xD
But..that'd be alot of spam for some ppl LOL X_X

I tried the group functions earlier today - you basically have to deed the land to the group and can then create new roles as you please. There is one specific 'action' that allows a group member to sell the land - as long as you deny that action to the roles you create you can delegate as many or few 'actions' to other roles. It is really nice - actions include deeding land, setting the music url, returning group obects, returning objects not set to the group, etc.

These new functionality is fantastic and will improve land rental significantly since it's now possible to delegate to others without fear of them selling your land. Very cool

Yeah, it sounds like, with the new tools, you can effectively maintain single ownership of land, but dole out limited responsibility to others.

ahh that explains it then, I wasn't aware that the land sales thing had even made it past beta yet. I suppose I had best look into this and check that there are no nasty surprises lol.

I agree Hiro the new group/land tools will greatly benefit mainland sims much more then private islands.
here's why.
Main land land owners will now be able to have officers/managers of there lands with out any fear of them selling the land because the group owner can limit land sale to them selves only.
example
I have owned the promenade mall in clarksburg for over a year and a half now and have only ever had one person other person that I trusted other then my self or my alts as an officer for the simple reason i could not trust any one enough with the capability to sell off over a full sim of land that i have deeded to the promenade mall group.

the only real benefit that Island owners are getting is the ability to "sell" land in the land tools.
Island owners have been selling and deeding land for along time. The new option only stream lines the process.
for instance right at this moment i can deed land to any one I want in my Private sims that i rent land in with out any fear of loosing the land and i can leave the group once the land has been deeded.
with the new process residents will be able to just buy the land them selves as long as they agree with the covenants

nothing that happens in preview effects main grid. it is a completely separate grid on its own servers. It only mimics the main grid in its look.

Well it's not a benefit to me. I raised the whole issue at an early stage with LL, and I was told they do not, and will not support estate sales, and urged me not to charge a 'purchase price'. My opinion was that, in the middle of all the semantics arguments going on, LL surely has to have the final word with defining this stuff. I am now in a position where I can consider that to have cost me a US$ five figure sum, I can't compete with those who can now collect this kind of revenue with LL's full support. I know it's been going on a while now, I just guess this 'benefit' brings it back to the surface again, only now it's more 'official'.

I am fully aware how any Business like LL needs to make quick changes in direction from original plans and policies, that kind of thing happens, that I accept, it's about money. What I don't accept, is how I have been treated over this whole issue. A reply to one of the countless emails I have sent regarding this issue would be a start. Thanks LL.

/rant and negative vibes over.

Ok, I think I understand a little better. I would really, really urge LL not to use the word "sales" then. To own something implies rights you do not have as a renter. To call it sales is even more misleading now that LL would be supporting the parcelization of islands among tenants.

That said, I'll drop that issue.

What do you say about the issue of still requiring land to be deeded to a group before any group powers can be exercised on it? Despite the new tools, this still removes buy/sell power from the original deeder and gives it to the group Owner.

What would it take to just designate a parcel as having membership in a group, and allowing group powers on it, including prim sharing, ban lists, etc., without removing ownership from the individual?

OTOH, the situation is exactly equivlent ot that on the mainland.



We have that, actually - you can set a parcel to a group, after all. problem is, it doesn't do much beyond preventing autoreturn.

No it isn't. I hate to keep rehashing this, but on the mainland ONLY LL can take away your land and your stuff. Anyone else is SOL the instant the real owner gets tired of SL (or them.)



We don't have it. I wish we did, I've suggested similar ideas many times for years now.

In that sense, yes. On the other hand, Linden Lab could fold tomorrow and we'd ALL be out of luck. Net Neutrality could be destroyed and half of us unable to access Second Life when LL doesn't pay to 'guarantee' access from some ISP. Rocks could fall and we could all die!

Know who you're doing business with. It's good advice anywhere.



What I mean is, you can set land to a group and maintain ownership. It just doesn't do anything except allow people who also have that group set to build and not get auto-returned. So - properly - it's more an expansion of that feature, one you'd think would be good to roll into the overall group revamp, one that I'd like to see.