SLOG: Sitting On A Goldmine

Nice.

If it becomes sufficiently enjoyable to compete with MMOs, a monthly subscription for all users will be market viable. WoW gets away with it and you don't even get any monthly gold or land.



What is "the full experience"? I'd say a more obvious angle is that people see that you can't possibly have the "full" experience without being a content creator and if they were one of them they wouldn't need to buy money. The moment they've bought money on Lindex, that's a signal that they're not worthy of the full experience, because if they were they wouldn't have needed to. (Points to the number of threads here that have linked to Lindex's buy page with the comment "people with no talent go here"



They're not. They're paying people to come and act like they're being entertained when in fact they're not getting much more that matters to them than they could get for free elsewhere.

Exactly. (Or it would be if my needs were purely social. But I'm trying to make a go of SL anyway, so that's basically what I do: script in the main window, actually have fun in IM.)

Now, what when every newbie to SL says the same thing?

Why should someone endorse a game where it's possible to build a great prim house when they can't do that so all they're doing is voluntarily letting others be better than them?

Yeah. Every newbie is going to say that.

So you're the mind reading spokesperson for all new people?

Fair point. Fair point.

I'm only trying to reason it out based on my experience and what seems to be happening. If people are always choosing to go to places with money chairs now - ie, nothing is worth the money lost by not sitting in a chair for that time - why would they actively pay out to attend places?

No, they're saying that people who want to benefit from the fruit of someone else's labor need to trade the fruit of their own. Serious content developers aren't playing. They're working. Does their work not have value because it's done in a virtual world? The time and effort required isn't virtual.

But they're enjoying themselves.

Not everyone has the skill, and not everyone enjoys it. Again, if those people can't have "the full experience" - regardless of what the reason for that is - they'll go for "whatever they can get". And they'll set the bar for "whatever they can get" where they choose to, and many - apparantly - are setting it at "whatever they can get without paying real money".

I agree that there must be a problem to some extent.

I find the fact people resort to money chairs to be saddening.

I agree with Chip - LL needs to do a better job of making sure that new players know EXACTLY what SL is.

I also agree that there needs to be more to do - and therein lies the dilemma.

LL has said that they are gradually, over time, leaving it up to players to provide things to do for other players, and that they plan to slowly shift more toward that model over time.

I think that the folks who are concerned about this need to pick up the reins and do something about it besides just pulling fire alarms. It is not mandatory that people volunteer to provide stuff to do for others, and never can be, thus, those who are most concerned about the issue should meet it head on, band together, and create more things to do. Either that or they should beseech LL directly to add things to do, versus trying to convince other players.

I don't think that is the problem. Basically, what you're saying there is that you wish the people in the camping chairs weren't part of the game at all. You can bet that they all know exactly about the monetary nature of SL, that's why they're there.



No. And I think it's a tragedy of the commons at the moment.

I am going to ask you politely to not speak for what you THINK I am saying. You seem to like to speak for others A LOT, including every new player. You will not take my posts and try to spin them to say what you want in order to villify me. If you do, I will simply disengage you forever, and you can deal with others until they tire of it too.

I AM NOT implying I don't want those people here. I have NO clue how you arrived at that conclusion, it is dead wrong. I said I am saddened that people are resorting to sitting in chairs. That, IMHO, is not what SL is about - that makes it a 3D chat room. I want SL to survive, for as long as is possible. Therefore I don't want to see ANYONE go away - I came from TSO "sit in a chair all day" crap myself.

I'm sorry, it is not my responsibilty to provide things to do for others, I pay my hard earned cash to entertain myself here. If you're concerned, offer real solutions instead of vague "needs to be more to do" type rhetoric. Provide that which you say is lacking. Or tell Linden Lab, via emails, or voting propositions, and the variety of other cannels that THEY need to ensure there is more to do. Badgering people to death in the general forum and villifying them is not the answer.

God forbid you should actually get up and do something besides bemoan the situation as you perceive it on the forum.

Please accept my apologies. I did not intend to cause offense.



Well, you suggested that new players should be told more precisely about the nature of SL. Part of this nature included nothing being free. Since the people sitting in the camping chairs clearly are the ones who want stuff for free - that being why they are sitting there - it would seem to me that they would be exactly the ones who would hit CANCEL as soon as that information page came up, and thus would not be part of the game at all. That was how it seemed to me, but I respect that you may think differently and I apologise for having attempted to speak for you.



What do you believe SL is, if not a 3D chat room?



I don't know what I can do about it. I don't have the resources or influence that others have; I have the same problem everyone else does regarding "someone should make sure folks are entertained but I'm not going to be the one to lose money on it". I just don't wish to see it forgotten about.

I am going to answer this post, and you might be surprised to find that I do agree with you on some of this, but probably not the causes - that is a bit of history (Hint: the classic few ruining things for the many - which is where I hope camping chairs don't lead us with respect to the dwell system) that I will get into when I have time a little later to respond at length.

[vader]I find your faith in humanity disturbing.[/vader]

I'm sorry, I can't parse this. What on earth are you talking about?

Oh, is that it?

I'm a "content creator" who chooses not to waste his time doing the stuff beyond being a content creator that's necessary to make money at it.

I have to do the "sales and marketing" part in the real world often enough that I have no interest in spending more time doing the part of my craft that I find the least enjoyable in SL, and I make so much more per hour doing it in the real world that spending time doing the sales stuff and customer relations stuff and dealing with lusers with boxes on their heads would actually cost me money, in real terms, compared to just giving away what I make on SL for fun.

Are you saying that I can't have the "full experience" of SL if I don't have to run a one-man business as well? Blow that for a joke.

The only person I know who regularly takes dwell payments (on dance balls, I believe) does it because part of the game he is playing on SL is "not paying for it". And he paypalled himself some cash to buy something... so he's working it off and when he cashes out he'll be ahead of the game in his terms again. It's not for the money, he can afford it, the money's just the token in his game. But it doesn't seem reasonable to me that the majority of folks on camping chairs are there because they're making a philosophical point. They're doing it because they don't see a reasonable way of getting enough money to buy even a bare minimum of what they'd need to present a normal face in SL any other way.

If they're going to be paid by LL by proxy through dwell payments, they might as well get their share through something that encourages them to contribute just by being part of the community. Like... the reputation system. Yes, it's gamable, but I don't think gaming the reputation system is as destructive as gaming the developer payments and dwell system like this.

In the article linked earlier, about Habitat, it made an important point: that the interaction between people is the entire basis on which virtual worlds operate. Everything else is subsidiary to that. There is, for instance, no value in purchasing a virtual house unless somebody else comes to see it; witness the frustration on other threads at builders who spent hours building stuff that nobody looked at.

But thinking in that basis, what effect does actually buying a prim house have upon your interactions with others? Bear in mind that you could just say, "Let's pretend I have a house" to your group of friends, and the pretend house would be no less real than a Damianos masterpiece, because neither are real at all. The big benefit of having a house is that if you say "let's pretend I have a house", the other people might not agree to go along with you, whereas if you have a prim house right there they are effectively forced to - or, at least, it's a societal more of SL that they will suspend their disbelief far enough to do that.

So what you're really paying for, when you buy stuff on SL, is the ability to coerce others to go along with your pretenses of what you want your SL character to be. If I just say I'm a cute fairy you can say no, but if I buy the wings and outfit settings and wear them in-game then you can't (or technically you can but you almost certainly won't).

There, right there, you see the cause of a bunch of phenomena I've witnessed or experienced on SL. Envy is amplified on SL - because you're aware that you're being coerced to ascribe attributes to the person you're envious of. People feel they should have stuff for free - because they're used to environments in which others would allow them to be what they chose without needing to be coerced.

And I'm convinced that this is partly to do with the camping chair effect. Camping chairs don't just hand out money - they very effectively create a social subgroup. If you camp long enough, win often enough, shop wisely, you can be Queen of the Camping Chairs and Tringo Halls. But if you buy L$ with US$ or make stuff, you've broken the "rules" of that subgroup, and if you want to be Queen you now have to go for Queen of the Metaverse - which means you have to start trying to compare to Aimee.



Actually, no. The only way you can have the "full experience" of SL is to create things. In the "camping club" subgroup, you're respected for having money, because it means you have been a more efficient camper or a better gambler. But outside that subgroup, social respect is based on what you've made far more than it's based on how much money you've earned doing it. For example, I have no idea how much money Timeless Prototype has made from the Multi Gadget, but I respect him anyway just because he made it (and because he's a cool guy).

Equally, if you don't create stuff, then you can't "look like what you want" - you just have to take the best fit you can get based on what others have happened to make, and if they haven't made what you want then, well, you're stuck. So again, the choice is between heading out into the full world of SL - where they'll be at the bottom of the heap with all the content creators look exactly how they want to - or staying in the "camping club" where everyone is in the same boat and they have a chance of getting ahead.



That's exactly right. Also note that in many cases, part of the game they are playing on SL is also "not paying for it". As long as they don't pay for it, they can present their "substandard-but-still-better-than-many-campers" face to the camping club and get respected and treated well for it. If they pay US$ for it, they can try to buy up to "normal" SL level but then get shunned by the camping club for "cheating" and ignored on the main grid in favour of the artists wearing their exclusives.



I think camping chairs are a contribution. As I say, there's nothing wrong with placing camping chairs, there's something wrong with the system that leaves people thinking that sitting in them is a good idea.

Here's a quick and simple thought.

What's currently the "job" that requires the least technical skill set in SL? Camping chairs.

It's equivalent (though not quite) to being a fast food worker in real life. In SL, Mickey D's is represented by the dwelloper. What the "employer" is providing is a "service", that is a means to an end for a limited customer base -- that particular dwelloper.

Whether or not this is considered "content" or beneificial to SL, it CAN be seen as a job in this way -- low (no) skilled labor for the untalented, unmotivated and/or the unskilled. Who cares WHAT they actually do with the money they make from cahir sitting?

Those who are cashing out can certainly have no argument with the cahir sitters doing the same thing using their particular skill set -- rock hard butt muscles and the ability to maintain a connection.

Those who are "content creators" shouldn't have an argument against this action if these people then go buy that content.

And those idealists who think that "participating" and "enjoyiing" SL requires social interaction on the chair sitters' parts should STFU as nothing gives anyone the right, AFAIK, to determine what another resident does with his or her avatar. For all you know, I plaster my butt in a chair and stare at my pretty avatar face for hours AND NOW I GET PAID FOR IT! That may be enjoyable to me!

Let's agree that LL's intent for dwelloper incentives and certain residents' views of what those incentives "should be for" and how they are attained do not coincide, have rarely truly coincided, and will continue o be divergent as long as various groups of people believe that it's "my way or 'you are wrong'".

BTW, while writing this post, I "earned" $8L chair sitting. Excuse me while I stand in order to collect get my wages.

That's perfectly true, but do you do that? Would you still happily camp and shop in SL if you were the only person on the grid?

The same effect that buying a physical house does. And what effect that is depends on what you're buying the house for and how you present it. That effect could be "I can afford to buy this house", or "I have the good taste to find this house attractive", or "Isn't this cool", or "In my house, I can do things, and you can do them with me", or "I thin this is cool, do you?", or "Does this interest you?", or any number of things.

If you build your own house, or design it and have someone build it for you, you're saying other things.

How is this different from building scripted and described houses in text-based MUDs, or buying a castle in a tabletop fantasy roleplaying game, and drawing up elaborate plans for it? Or writing a fanfic with your own characters in another author's world... or for that matter writing a novel that involves a house? Or writing reviews of books like that, or getting together to talk about books like that as if the characters were real? Where's the cutoff? Where does coercion start? I don't think it starts anywhere.

And when you do any of these, you're displaying your taste, your skill, your leisure time (I can spend hours working on this). And some people will go "cool" and some people will go "get a life", but nowhere is "coercion" envolved.

When I read the descripton of Lord Morrolan's home, "Castle Black", in _Jhereg_, while I'm reading the description of Vlad's arrival in the courtyard, the view of the land far below, his meeting with Lady Teldra and the way she makes him welcome and takes him up the staircase to the library, the castle is just as real. And what's Brust doing when he describes the murals Vlad passes on the way up the stairs? He's doing the same thing that someone who's lined up snapshots of places he's been in Second Life in his entranceway... albeit with more skill, since I don't know that I'd pay the L$ equivalent of US$4.95 to visit many houses in SL...

You get envy for the same reason you get it in the real world. People are envious of those they think have more money, better taste, more skills, whatever it is that's being displayed when they visit that house. But they're not being coerced into believing in anything, any more than they're coerced into believing that your skin is a nice shade of teal because of the shirt you're wearing... even as they wish they had a shirt that color.

Um, there's all kinds of other subgroups. The stuff I buy, I doubt Aimee would be interested in competing against me on. Same with the stuff I make - I wouldn't expect Huns Valen or Cubey Terra to be interested in a script to animate my character's tentacles when he "eats people's souls", so I can happily buy a Cygnus G1 or a Sport Chute without thinking I've now got to compete with them. There's all KINDS of subgroups in SL, some large enough that they've got several sims dedicated to them, some small enough that you have to look hard to find them, you don't have to join the "Camping Chairs" subgroup to find them.

Even if you CAN create things, you might not be any good at creating things to wear. I'm not. So I'm missing out on the full experience because I'm not creating the right kind of things?

Well, looks like I'll never get out of the bottom of the heap.. at least in your subculture. Good thing I don't seem to be part of it.

I mostly agree with this, but not, I suspect, entirely in the way you meant it.

That's not a "Mickey D's" job. A job in fast food benefits hundreds of people every day, the customers who come through the door. The analogous job in SL used to be "earning reputation points"... it doesn't exist any more. Instead, they have created something more like a parody of the old Roman patronage system. It's not quite as bad as the "Pups of Troy" in _The Helix and the Sword_, but sheesh...

I don't know, who's said anything about that?

Um.. since when did the number of people "benefited" become a requirement for something to be classified as a "job". A "job", at least as far as my understanding of language goes, is something one does in exchange for money as opposed to doing it for some other reason. (If you like what you're doing but get paid for doing it anyway, more power to youbut it's still a job.)

Mickey's D's jobs are generally considered to be a set of low-skilled, come as you are, jobs that anyone can do with little to no education or training to start.

I, as an "freelance and on my terms employee", am trading my "busy" avatar skill in return for the "Dwelloper's" payment of whatever rate per minute the char actually pays -- but I had to gain the knowledge that I must stand up to get paid -- not merely log off. Guess what. There was an exchange of value for both of us -- and I get to look at my pretty avaar face while getting paid. Lucky me.

And the old stipend for reputation system? That required a different skill set to earn top dollar. But "I don't know, who's said anything about that?"

Sure. But buying a physical house has other values too - it keeps the rain off and lets you get mail, for example. An SL has no value beyond the social one. And since SL is intrinsically based on role-playing, even that's in question. If someone will play that you're a superhero even they know you're actually just a regular guy/gal sitting at their PC, why shouldn't they play that your house is a magnificent mansion even though it's "actually" just a 10m cut hollow cube?



No different at all. You just don't have to pay money for it.



In small groups, like tabletop fantasy games, reviews, or role-playing groups, there's no coercion needed because it's all being done through mutual social contract. I'll accept that you're a hulking muscled barbarian in exchange for you accepting I'm a mischevous flying witch. On SL, and online games in general, there's too many people around for such a contract to be brokered so it's done effectively by coercion by having some things be "part of the game system" and others not. I'd rather not accept that you have a big house, because then I'd have to accept that I'm "worse" than you for not having one, but I have to accept it because the graphics are right there and they coerce me.

And yes, it happens on text-based MUDs as well. Look at reports about Castle Marrach.



Sure they are. If they weren't, they wouldn't have envy, because when they see someone else's big house, they just wouldn't accept that it exists (because, after all, it doesn't!!) and then there would be nothing to be envious of. "Wow, look, you spent time and money buying a bunch of meaningless numbers on a server in Cal! And better yet, the more people have this attitude I'm displaying right now, the more meaningless they get!"



Sure, but most of the biggies require ability to create in order to participate at all.



That was just an example. The point is that if you can create things, you can manipulate the world to do what you want at least in some ways. That's part of the "full experience". People who can't create, can't do that.

In RL, when someone in government creates an unnecessary job paid with taxpayer money and fills it with a crony who kicks back a portion of their salary, what's that called? I think there's a word for it, but I can't remember (honestly).

As the person who coined the term SLog back in February of 2004, I demand you cease infringing upon my copyright immediately. Otherwise, I will be forced to seek the support of a higher authority.

SLOG's legal department consists of a pack of rabid, hungry, wild hounds. They will EAT YOU ALIVE IN COURT...YA HEAR ME?! EAT YOU ALIVE!!!