A SL Better Business Bureau?

I dunno, blaze is an admitted former dotcom boom big fish.

I've always had the feeling he's Pierre Omidyar

Heh, I think Pierre still has a real job.

eh, the only issue I've had with this, is that I've been subject to "Or I'll smear your businesses name!" tactics in the past.

Out of about 7000 customers, we've had literally maybe three who have seriously had unresolvable problems. But that handful - I hate using the term "Boy, howdy!" but I'll use it here.

The specifics would involve getting a little too personal: but lets just say that someone bought an avatar, found a loophole in the "wording" of our documentation (essentially 'Well you didn't say it DIDNT do this, and it doesn't!') - and we ended up doing about two weeks of free customization work for them because they threatened to tell "everyone in the Forums" and everyone who reads "m2" and the "SL Herald" about our "horrible business practices".

Then, we found out that this person had done this to other business in the past to get OMG FREE STUFF.

So maybe a record of who *makes* complaints should be recorded as well. If there are some folks out there who complain about *EVERY* business they interact with - well, maybe it ain't the businesses.

Thing is, this begins to sound like the ratings system that we just got rid of, and indeed it'd probably just come down to being a popularity contest.

I had started a SLBBB type service back in 2004 on secondlifenow.com. Basically what I tracked was people giving themselves really high ratings and the system was just getting gamed. With that said, I was limited by my programing abilities. If there is someone out there that would like to help relaunch this service and help design something more functional, I have the hosting which includes sql sitting there waiting to be put to use.

Michi great point and this was another problem I was having, people giving crapy reviews just because they didnt like someone.

I can't see how this kind of thing would end up as anything but trial by mob.

Some great ideas here, and some people that are all for it, and some totally against it.
The key to make this succesful is to make sure that each report is investigated and just not taken by word, also a group of at LEAST 5 volunteers to assure there is no biasness going on lol

And who decides who those 5 are? Who decides they're unbiased and fair?

mhm. That's exactly what I'm talking about. While it's a good idea in theory, in practice I think it'd just end up being a manipulation and advertising tool.

There's nothing keeping "competing" shills from registering outlandish complaints, and when it comes down to it- what's your recourse: convincing some other person who may or may not be predisposed to think you suck on ice already, that the complaint is bull?

This actually does happen with the real BBB already. Often, complaints come from customers who either didn't get stuff for free, or from folks who really were asking for unreasonable things.

(i.e. a friend who works at a camera company - this HAS happened: Customer: "I dropped my camera in the pool and now it doesnt work. But I've only had it a week! Give me a new one." Company: "No, we can't do that. You dropped it in the pool, sir." Customer: "Then I'm calling the BBB!" The complaint remains 'unresolved' at the BBB.)

At the same time, good service doesn't get recorded.

Good question lol

I don't think that'd stop bias. Any 'team' ends up having or forming a sort of group bias anyways. You really can't avoid that.

For example, if they come by to 'investigate' Luskwood, how much do they really know about the avatar business? Do they know what the standards and norms are, or is the complaint from Joe Foo that we don't have a magical script that rainbow-alternates every second prim going to be registered as legitimate?

What if one of the five just thinks we suck because they ah, frequent a certain "internets" site that thinks we ought to be thought of as.. er, sucking?

What if the SLBBB is investigating a sex shop, and one of the five just thinks that anything sexual is mm-bad?

What if one guy on the team really likes Chevy and the vehicle maker you guys are investigating makes Ford clones? Will the "Calvin pissing on _____" sticker ideology actually come into play?

You can't screen for every possibility of bias. That's why the RL BBB *is* biased. (look into it some!) Small business owners end up getting burned by this stuff, whereas large businesses can pretty much just ignore it.

I think as long as you had an objective checklist it would probably be fairly easy to stay objective.

I also think people would recognize the value of something like this based on how objective sounding you were.

I don't think you really need to know the businses. Just need to read the advertising and make sure it matches up with the actual product.

No, that'd just make for a form that's unbiased. Where the person places their checks is ultimately going to be colored by some sort of bias.

I can't wait till we get a SLBBB complaint that our "avs have too many prims and it lagged me ." How the hell are you going to investigate something like that? Would the SLBBB start establishing standards? ("Well, the average person has XXX speed processor and YYY video card so all avatars should be under 90 prims. If they are 91 or above, check 'does not comply' on the checklist, and the complaint is valid."

While that 'standard' may, prima facie, appear "researched", it really is arbitrary, and doesn't take into account many variables that would be *way* too complex for an organization like a SLBBB to consider.

Would the SLBBB decide what the remedy, renumeration, or resolution to the problem would be? Would the SLBBB start declaring judgements against business and assessing fines? Are you sure that would never be manipulated?

There's so much to consider here; The whole situation would unfortunately be condensed and simplified down to one "you suck" point.

As long as you

a) tell how many prims are in your avatars or
b) people can view your avatars before purchasing

Then none of those complaints are valid.

The question is - does your product match your product description? That's all we need to know.

After that, the buyer is just a dufus for buying something they don't understand.

Though, there are some tough questions. For example, what'a reasonable response time for customer complaints?

72 hours? 1 week?

Hmm. Yah, the more I think about it and look at what's been tried in the past, the more I wonder. Michi makes some good points too, people will always try to game the system.

I guess, I'd approach it basically from the stance of, if you get something that is BLATANTLY not as advertised (I.E. real-world pics on your boxes of 3-prim chairs, a vehicle that doesn't work at all, ect)... And THEN if the seller will not refund your money or even return your IM's, there should be some recourse. I had an incident like this about 8 months ago and am less inclined to buy things that other people haven't already "tried out" and told me about as a result.

Edit > Of course, "recourse" is really limited by the TOS, and I wouldn't want in any case a "smear campaign", thats why I was interested to see the "opt-in" type concept of RATE...

SL is almost getting too "big" in this respect, I'm seeing more and more "buyer beware" posts shouted in the forums, every news story to hit the airwaves is, "OMG People make money there!!!"... And more and more scams materialize.

i totally agree with aimee. in my opinion, if something like this were to really work...and work well, i think it would have to be less of an organization and more of a *task force* comprised of several widely respected and reputable SL residents who are not only savvy customers but varied type business owners as well.

But there are so many things to consider here...and even tho i think it would be a wonderful thing to be able to protect consumers from scams that pop up here and there, the likelihood of this turning into something along the lines of the *SL Police* or spiraling out of control is great and would certainly not be met with alot of support from the vast number of reputable business owners....and could in fact, end up being thought of as a huge farce.

In reality, education is probably the best way for people to protect themselves. Maybe a notecard with things to look for.....or things to send up red flags......things to ask, i.e. references for high dollar service providers.......and of course, last but not least....learn from your mistakes.

i have a friend who is a major shopping addict lol and spends lots of money on various items. she spent alot on a particular item that was pretty high dollar for what it was, and the item turned out to be defective. she got no response from the creator...no replacement...no reimbursement...nada. so we write these things off, but what ends up happening is that...no matter how wonderful this designer's future creations appeared to be, my friend never ever spent another penny on them...........and that's ALOT of money a designer loses, trust me lol.

Business owners/ designers need to be reminded of the quote my friend uses frequently... it's one that we all know is very true and apropos...... *A happy customer may tell 3 people.....and unhappy one tells everyone*

Just weighing in:

There are a group of shoppers in SL who are like me--we shop quickly, if we see it and like it we buy it. Shopping is an emotional experience for us because more often than not we're using shopping as therapy for whatever reason. We're impulse buyers. And isn't that the GREAT thing about SL? Instant gratification?

Of course there's a trade off. No way to try on clothes before you buy them, but then, you can always switch your avi to make it look good

Thankfully most content creators in SL are great at what they do, you don't get ripped off too often. When you do get a bad deal you contact the seller and they are almost all overwhelmingly willing to make it better. Some shoppers take advantage of this. Some of us just don't even bother (me), and don't shop there anymore ( I usually give it two bad experiences in a row before I stop shopping somewhere).

Also, you can't discount word of mouth and the fact that we shop in packs. Yes, we are pack shoppers, and we share landmarks of where good deals are or who has the BEST skins or the BEST ao or whatever the best thing is that we're looking for. Shoppers Rule #1: do not allow your friend to buy that fugly/dissatisfying/non-functional Whatever It Is.

If I really like a place I'll recommend it everywhere. My friends get bombarded by me promoting some random seller all the time, and a lot of times they ask me if they're looking for something specific and I tell them where I saw it or bought it or whatever, or I send them presents of great stuff I find...

This is shopping addict behavior. You see a lot of us on Classifieds forums, promoting this designer or that gadget maker or whomever, because we know good quality stuff comes from that designer, and we want to let others know it's great. It's not all just cheerleading or promoting a friend (I only have two designer friends, and only one of them posts in forums) or whatever people seemed to think it was before LL tried to close down the Classifieds. There were a lot of customers like me in that forum who would weigh in with our opinions about products. There are also a lot of us who look there to see what others think is great. Sure, not everyone reads forums or looks at classifieds or even posts there if they are designers, but that's to their detriment I think. The Forums serve me well, as does word of mouth, sharing shopping tips with friends, and just asking around about a designer or content creator or whatever.

I think SL already has a "better business bureau" in the forums.