Who Needs it Most? Pt. 2

I find myself agreeing with Lewis here. Giving them stipends for a limited time sounds like a good idea to me.

SL is a complex game. New players need time to get accustomed to it. I believe that if we give them an incentive to keep logging in every week, it will be easier to retain them.

I've been handing out parts of my profit via a money ball to (usually) newbies for over a year. Nothing pleases me more than seeing them take the step to premium and become land owners and creators, making their own money. And as an active venue owner, I know many of them personally. I firmly believe that many would have left long time ago if they couldn't get the money to buy some of the cool stuff they see (because the cool stuff isn't free). I think they need time to see the value of spending money in here.

Um ... I can play for free already. Sure, I liked it better when stipends were higher, but oh well, I work for money (sort of ... professional duelist ). In fact, I worked from my first day anyway, first as a dancer/escort, then as club security in addition ... I've never really relied on the stipend for my income (except that it meant many more tips in the old days ), so I guess it's just hard to care.

OMG, I can already play SL for FREE! That's plenty for me!

Wrong.

While it's not a big leap from spending US$1 on the Lindex to spending, say, US$5 on the Lindex, it's a fairly big leap going from US$0 to US$1. Perhaps not for your typical MMOG player, but SL attracts an audience beyond that and yes, there's a mental hurdle people have to cross before dropping real money on virtual items. The fact that people may not know if they enjoy SL or will want to stick around makes it that much bigger.

For example, I now pay a fair amount in rent each month, but for a while I really resisted plunking down some money on the Lindex, just for those reasons. I was so poor I often had to use camping chairs just to scrape together the L$10 to use the preview feature; had I not gotten any stipend, I probably would have given up and left. And poof, LL would have had one less customer.

I agree with the people who said that newbies should get a stipend for their first few weeks. This allows them to buy a few things, and upload a few things, and otherwise get a taste of things. I said this in an earlier thread, but I'll repeat it here: if the basic account is supposed to be there to entice new people to upgrade to premium, then it's suddenly become a good deal less enticing.

The answer as to why they did away with the basic account stipend is obvious. Linden Labs will make more money because of it. Since basic accounts won't be getting a stipend at all anymore, this will motivate more basic account holders to buy premium accounts. Soooooo, LL makes more money.

Which is fine with me. I want them to make tons of money. SL will be better for it.

I'm a newbie and I will give you all a very good example of why giving basic account newbies money sounds good in theory, but may not be so great.

I had no concept of what a linden was worth when I got my $250 and blew it after a few hours, heh. Only later did I realize that $250 linden wasn't much at all, only later did I find out about all the freebies, some of which were better quality than what I blew my linden on, and only after I settled down and didn't want to buy everything I saw did I stop thinking about wanting things and started to think about creating things.

$50 linden is such a small amount, I don't see how anyone could get much out of it, especially doled out weekly. It would take a month of saving to buy something.

Just like any other MMO, you have to DO something to GET something. Camp for spawns, kill some uber creature... or get an SL job or sell something you created. People don't come into these things expecting something for nothing, especially if they have been in MMO's before. But handing out lindens creates an attitude of entitlement, which is especially bizzare given that the basics are playing for free and can still earn linden or even create and sell their own stuff for real money. That is what should be more encouraged, creation and understanding how SL "works" since there is no "game", as well as pointing newbies to quality freebies. Most of the places they are shuffled off to aren't giving the kind of real quality stuff that the newer, designer donated places are, like GNUbie Store or The Free Dove. If I had gone to those places first, I wouldn't have blown my money so fast, lol.

Edit to add, SL is floating in free textures, there is no need for a newbie to have to upload textures when just starting out.

As far as I know, SL attracts a crowd beyond those familiar with other MMOGs. Also, many people come here to relax, not have a second job. If you force them to get a second job or plunk down money before they can even try some of SL's niftier features, they may just wander off, taking their money with them.


Unless you're making prim jewelry or shoes or the like if you want to make clothing, you have to upload textures. If you want to sell things inworld, you have to upload textures. You can't say newbies should make their own money and then insist they've got no reason to do one of the things typically required for making money.

Interesting theory. Just for fun, let's try applying that reasoning to another very popular MMO: World of Warcraft.

"As far as I know, WoW attracts a crowd beyond those familiar with other MMOGs. Also, many people go there to relax, not level. If you force them to kill things and do quests to level or buy an Ebayed account before they can even try some of WoW's niftier features, they may just wander off, taking their money with them."

Hm.

Strangely, something tells me that outcome is unlikely. Or rather, it seems that while the odd person may leave WoW on discovering that it doesn't offer something for nothing, the game somehow manages to keep a substantial number of players regardless.

And THEY even have to pay a monthly fee.

I think we may have to reject your theory as extremely unlikely, given everything we know about how people behave and have behaved in MMOs, including SL, to date.

Don't you feel there's a contradiction, right here? ^^;

namely: L$50 might be a small amount. But it's being given to a newbie at least few days down the road. By this time, they're likely already spent their starting L$250 _and_ found out about nice places with cheap items. So by the time their L$50 arrives, they can utilize it to purchase, by your own words, "better quality than what I blew my linden on". So in the end it's not really _so_ little that you cannot get quite a few nice thing from it. And precisely because it's being given out weekly, you have lot of time to plan exactly what you spend it on, to get the most out of your very limited buck...

It takes a newbie literally a minute or two in WoW to start earning their in-game currency. In numbers which easily cover all their needs. In addition to getting nearly all items they could want, as well. The process requires no financial investment, the knowledge required for that boils down to 'click on the stuff", and the whole process is actually fun.

When SL can claim to be anywhere near this level as far as being newbie friendly goes, the comparison could be a point.

As far as I know, WoW and SL have very different demographics; SL does, in fact, attract a substantial number people beyond the hardcore gamers who are already used to paying money for this kind of thing. And if WoW doesn't offer free trials, the whole "real money for virtual goods" mental hurdle has already been overcome. Furthermore, they are different beasts. You're expected to put effort into a game. Into what many people use as a fancy chat room? Not so much.

Also, games immediately give you something to do. SL does not; you have to find your own fun. And, let's face it, the interface isn't very intuitive. It's already easy enough for newbies to get frustrated or bored and leave -- isn't that one of the reasons Orientation Island (or Help Island) was made, after all? Making it harder for them to buy cool things or create content means it's more likely they'll leave, and never rent or upgrade to premium.

I'm not saying basic accounts should get money for ever and ever. But handing people a free trial that's difficult to use and not so much fun is not a good way to retain customers.

A lot of people who pay money for this kind of thing are anything but hardcore players, actually.



There. Right there.

Regardless of what some people may use it for, SL is not a fancy chat room and never has been. And it has ALWAYS been possible to use ANY MMO as a fancy chat room. Just because someone may do that, that doesn't mean that's what it actually is.



Exactly. In most MMOs, you kill things to level up. In SL, you do ANYthing you like, and if you want to "level up" (have nice stuff), you can use any method you care to use to accomplish that. I know I have.



Okay? Every game has a learning curve. Not every game offers the kind of in-game assistance that SL does. In fact, I don't know of any that does.



First of all, it's not a free trial -- it's a free account with a one-time $10 fee. Second, your argument could easily be applied to any other MMO, as they all tend to have steep learning curves (good God, did you ever try SWG or Eve Online??), and most of them are a lot less forgiving of mistakes (screw up in a typical MMO, and you die and then have to deal with whatever penalty that imposes).

The reality is that the overwhelming majority of SL players never even peek into these forums and have no idea that they're supposed to think there's some huge problem. This is essentially a non-issue that only even appears to be an issue from the perspective of someone reading the forums rather than playing. It's the same way with other MMOs and always has been: go to the forums if you want to find out what's terribly wrong with the game, but don't expect to find people in-game worried about or even usually aware of what the forum people are saying.

I agree that SL isn't newbie friendly, but that has little to do with handing out lindens and everything to do with depending on a wiki instead of a real manual. Fortuanately there is a lot of inworld help, but really, they need a manual. And a good newbie guide to getting started, not inworld but on their website. I didn't even see the notecards when I came into SL, they are placed, for some reason, in a place labled "building area". Uh? How about: "New Resident Orientation Area"? I also, like many others, was confused on the Newbie Island and left before seeing most of it, not by design, either. Then told you can't go back. It should be more structured and clearly laid out, the terrain was very confusing while learning how to use the interface, which is also confusing at first.

I have no problem giving newbies some lindens when they first enter SL. However, I understand, for economic reasons, that Linden has decided to stop. No other online world/game/platform not only gives you free membership, but also hands you money on top of it. Especially when that platform is trying to create a viable "virtual economy".

But the problem here is that SL is not another MMORPG. It is not a place where you come and start leveling. It is not a place where you get drops. It is sold as a place which is unique because you can create your own content. Why someone would want to come to a virtual world in which they are told right off that the content is created by themselves and others, and that people run real businesses here, and a virtual/real economy is being pushed, expecting to play for free with money given to them for nothing is beyond me. It presents itself as a place that isn't about getting stuff handed to you, prepackaged and predetermined, it is about making your own way and creating your own content. That is the freedom of the whole idea. If someone comes here expecting to have their entertainment handed to them, then they didn't read the instructions, and will probably leave anyway, since $50 lindens won't buy much entertainment. Not that there isn't plenty to do and see and participate in without spending a dime or creating a thing, there already is!

As Alex said, every online game demands that you do something to get anywhere. What is unique about SL is that you get to determine how and where you want to go. That is the selling point, to me at least. Obviously there are plenty of people who use SL mainly as a 3d chatroom/virtual playpen complete with their dream appearance and are willing to pay premium for the experience. Either you create or you consume and if you consume then you are going to have to work or pay.

I honestly don't understand why people trying out a free game expect to be able to do or have everything that those who either pay real money or work to create have earned. Especially when a single US dollar will buy you more than enough to upload your textures or buy some nice outfit, if that is necessary for you to even consider playing any further. I wound up buying some lindens, myself. Given that I was already playing for free, and most MMO's will only allow that for a week or so and then cut you off unless you start paying $20 a month, a few bucks for a nice skin or something to get started isn't asking much, it is a free "game", after all. I don't expect much for nothing, I guess that makes me unusual?

So what? They still have to level. THAT'S where the work in a typical MMO comes in. Think they can level to max in literally a minute or two?



In SL, acquiring the things you want is vaguely analogous to leveling up. It's definitely as newbie friendly as WoW in that regard, especially considering the fact that if you REALLY want a fair comparison, then you need to sink the same amount per month into SL that you would have into WoW. For that, you can have all of the Lindens you're ever going to need to shop your heart out.

Or, you can do like me and earn them in-game ... and have fun doing it because that IS part of this game.

Still makes no sense to me, but hey. I'd rather die than sit in a camping chair for a few hours for a few measly cents. My time isn't something I have the luxury of throwing away.

Letting them get the stipend for a few weeks then cutting it off seems like it'd just be confusing. If they're going to do anything, I'd rather they raise what Basic's start with from 250 to 500. That's another 5 weeks of stipend right off the bat.

Speaking of SWG, it was very much like this. You were on your own to decide what you wanted to do, except they had better instructions, heh.

At least it was that way until they destroyed the fucking game and that happened very rapidly. Don't ask, I didn't get into beta because I dissed the developers on the forums and I get some satisfaction from having been right about them from the start.

A number of people do use it for that, however. And they can bring their money with them. If LL wants the business of these people, I do not think it is in their interest to make people work from the get-go.


Except none of those methods are particularly easy, except for buying money from the Lindex, which involves overcoming a mental hurdle, and rather defeats the point of a free trial.


Yes, it is. A first basic account costs nothing, and it's the first basic accounts that I think should get limited stipends.


And you're still having fun and interacting reasonably well with the interface, presumably. Playing the game and dying is still playing the game. SL doesn't hand you anything to do -- even getting killed in a combat sim requires some initiative and knowledge. Unlike a true game, there's no objective you're given, not even "try not to die."

The problem with this is that rank newbies might not know the value of a linden. With one lump sum given at signup, if you blow your money, that's it. A weekly stipend gives people a chance to see what their lindens actually buy and plan accordingly.

Even if newbies were only given L$250, actually, I'd rather it be spread out over a few weeks, perhaps with a larger chunk given upon signup.

Never underestimate the draw of not having to "try not to die".

I speak coming from a experience where "crafting" was supposed to be an option until you learned you could not leave your house without getting killed or needing to hire a posse or join a guild to protect you.

What I like about SL is that I can create things, script things and have others use and interact with them in realtime 3d and the platform changes as we create content, unique content, not altering premade stuff. I don't have to kill anything to survive. I don't have to fear getting my head ripped off while shopping or creating something.

If I wanted that, I would be in WoW.

That may always be a niche market. It is demanding of it's users in a different way. To me, it is far less demanding than trying to juggle a dozen skills at once when I only am interested in doing one thing. I want freedom and that's what SL provides. Some people don't want that kind of freedom because too many choices feels like work and they just want to be entertained by a game for a few hours. They will never be interested in SL, stipend or no. That isn't a judgement, I play those games, too. But SL isn't a game, it is a platform that gives you certain tools, the rest is up to you. I don't know yet if that will be enough to keep me here, but it was the main reason I came here to begin with, not to buy things or be entertained by game developers, but to create things and be in a user created virtual environment and community. That is what it is and it will not appeal to people looking for a traditional MMO.

An average WoW player becomes self-sustainable in less than 5 minutes from the moment they start playing the game. And it's very similar with other MMO games. Grab your newbie stick, hit a nearby rat = money. Whee.

Average SL 'player'? heh. The time before the game is grasped to level where one can see some sort of income can be measured in days if not weeks. If they actually cope with the learning curve that's more of 'learning wall'.

These are basically completely different animals. So trying to apply mechanics of WoW to SL and vice versa is to large extent completely pointless.


No, that's the very thing with WoW that makes it so popular, i think -- the newbies don't "have" to level. They don't "work". They are simply having fun whacking the walking bags of loot disguised as mobs with their early weapons, and running all over the place doing their quests that are actually entertaining more often than not. The levels sort of 'happen' during that, and grant them more toys to play with (skills, new armour upgraded etc) but they aren't actual goal for the most part.

The ones who feel they "have" to level are the players who already had their share of standard MMOs, and got it drilled in their heads that all that matters is the 'endgame' and the only 'real' way to play MMO is min-max their way to top level as fast as possible. But that's self-put horse blinders, if anything.


Really? Where is the mob that drops my skirt of awesomeness +2, then and grants me skill points so i then have enough hp to defeat a mob that drops skirt of awesomeness +3?

Afraid "vaguely analogous" similarity starts and ends on both products being played over the net by large number of people. And both utilizing 3d graphics to portray the world. But that doesn't mean there's any sort of similarity between these two, beyond that.

You greatly underestimate how much people are willing to tolerate in MMOs to get their fix. They're really not even having to TOLERATE anything here; I've seen situations in MMOs infinitely more frustrating for the players not even BEGIN to cause a reduction in the number of people playing (despite empty threats on the forums that they would).

Take it from someone with years of MMO experience, not just in SL: you're actually just fundamentally wrong on this one. You'll probably look back years from now and realize it, but for now, all I can tell you is to take my word for it: there will be no mass exodus over the horrible stress of not getting an infinite supply of free Lindens. There has never been (and never will be) a mass exodus from any MMO for problems far, far, FAR worse than not getting a free lunch. Linden Labs risks nothing here.

Trust me.

I disagree with you a bit, Joannah. Even though SL is not a game like WoW or other MMOG's, when you get inworld you are surrounded by cool stuff you can't afford just like seeing players with the UberSwordofLeetness +10 and wanting that. In a traditional MMOG you would level and grind your ass off to get that Uber thing and in SL you have a few choices: learn to make it yourself, work for it or pay for it. In a MMOG I would have to pay just for the privilage of levelling my way up over days and weeks, unless I lived ingame, to get what I wanted. In SL at least you get the choice of paying or not, and then you can get your UberSkin or whatever immediately. Or you can learn the skills to make it yourself and then turn around and use those skills to sell it to others creating a source of income to buy more stuff. And there is a similar pecking order when it comes to those who create versus those who do not, just like skills and levels and items in an MMOG.

People will figure out very quickly if they are interested in creating or just buying and socializing or a mix of both. One involves work and reward and the other involves paying up front, just like any other MMOG, except you get instant satisfaction. Or getting an SL "job".

So it is like a game in that respect. People want things in SL. But it isn't given to them. They have to "earn" it or pay for it. With Premium you are given enough of a stipend to buy a lot of stuff without having to do anything else for money. For some that is plenty, since the social aspects of SL, the groups and communities they belong to are what keep them there. And it is half the price of most MMOGs, without having to buy the software in addition. Plus, they can always take up building and scripting whenever they like at their own pace.

But the thing is, whether it is given up front, in the free trial, or doled out over a few weeks, $250 liden doesn't buy much for any newbie trying out SL except the desire for more stuff. That's when they have to decide how they will get it, pay or work. I agree that it's a steep learning curve but this isn't really a game it's just a platform. I don't know if I would be interested if it was made more easy, since that would mean creating a "game" within SL to facilitate an artificial way for people to "play SL", and that would further erode any attempt at a real economy, since it would be creating a kind of welfare system with fake "jobs". I think that stipends are necessary for premium members because there will always be people who aren't really here to seriously build or design, they are here to roleplay, and they make up a good part of the consumer base of the "SL economy". But they pay for that stipend with real cash and they expect to be able to do something for their money, namely, be able to buy things and own land.

eh, I don't know why I'm so garrulous today, sorry.

I was making money my first day.

Besides which, in MMOs, making money isn't your first problem -- LEVELING is. There are no levels in SL. The closest thing you have in SL is acquisition of stuff -- that's your leveling process. And yes, it takes time. Unless you pay out exactly what you would have paid out to play any other MMO, in which it takes no time. Boom. You're there.



The comparison is a little bit of a stretch, but it's basically sound. You're simply ignoring it -- whether out of confusion over what I'm saying or simple stubbornness, I'm not completely certain. Unfortunately, it's difficult to offer any BETTER comparisons given that SL is pretty much unique. I'm giving you the best I can.



I never thought of my SL experience as "work" either. From my first day, I dove right in and started making money, and I was loving what I did. It's not that complicated; it's just that you have to (and get to!) think for yourself.



I found some "mobs" like that first at my first job dancing at a (long since defunct now) club. Lately, I get my "loots" in SL competitions instead. I also have created some merchandise I'll probably soon sell, but I've gone a long time without ever selling anything and done just fine for myself. I'm flexible, and I always find ways to adapt. SL gave me the freedom to find my own path, and I did.

Again, the comparison really is perfectly sound, and it's not a complicated concept. Stop trying to "win" the argument and really consider what I'm saying, and I'm sure you'll see it.

The point is that both start you at zero, and both require you to work for it before you actually get anywhere. SL just gives you a lot more freedom to do that however you like (which can be confusing to people who want their hands held, yes) and doesn't require a monthly fee.

Again, SL is not a traditional MMO. For many people here, this is not "getting a fix" in the same way that playing a traditional game would be. This isn't a case of putting obstacles in the path of already interested players. It's a case of trying to get people interested in the first place. And that is harder to do if people have a hard time using some of SL's biggest features.


I never said there would be a mass exodus of existing players. I said that newbie retention rates would be worse. Neither did I say that people should get an infinite supply of money.

Miriel, I'm curious what you consider SL's "biggest features". Honest question, I'm not being snarky or anything.

Shopping and uploading. Yes, there are ways to have fun that don't involve those (and SL certainly has big features beyond them), but a lot of nice things cost money. And a good deal of content creation -- or just uploading sounds or something for fun -- requires uploads.