Ginko - Part II

Well said, Hinoserm.

I look forward to the entertaining replies.

An AV scanner does the same thing, or can. This is not at all like spyware, are you installing a horrable program, No. Are you haveing data like your creditcard or land stoled fron this, No.

Finally, A scanner can't see what you are doing or why are you are doing it. It's basicly a glorified Avitar Positioning Unit.

Hi, Hinoserm, while I am not sure what the TOS (which is a document thats very much open to interpretation in some points) says abou harvesting AV keys. But as this information is more or less open to anyone who can write a simple script, I doubt, if it can be considered "illegal".

As someone who is in the web business, I would like to compare that data you are gathering to web logs which every serious web site generates and every owner of such a website, who is handling his/her business professionally, has to analyse. I dabbled around with such scripts myself for a while because SL itself does not generate much information of this kind - which can be very valuable for someone designing and developing locations in SL.

But you usually generate weblogs for websites you own yourself. And many owners of websites are quite touchy with regard to this information. Some of our big customers for example would not give us the raw data for websites my firm built ...

That said, I am not sure how I would judge gathering that data on other people's property (especially the movement data, I think the key harvesting is OK). And I am rather sure that most owners of websites would not be very pleased, when someone else would gather log data for their website. And most of them would be outraged if this someone else would publish log data or log analysis for their website without explicit permission.

So I can very much understand the owners/developers of the Forest community that they are "a little pissed" about the publishing of such images - and maybe about the data gathering too.

Yes, that's the big point of contention here.

To Ginko:
Can you provide a version of your ATM, without this sensor sweep?

There is nothing wrong with collecting avatar keys for your name-to-key database.

However, you have been collecting information about avatar locations and avatar movements. You even did so without informing the land owners and the community in the effected sims. You have tried to hide this. I disagree with this practise and believe people deserve to know.

As far as Dreamland is concerned, your objects are in violation with our zoning rules. We care for the privacy of our residents. We have two rules that regulate this:

Object Code, Rule 2: "Spy scripts are not permitted"
Object Code, Rule 4: "Scripts that transmit data directly or indirectly to external databases are only allowed if explicitly permitted by sim management."

I think this situation show that the reason for secrecy often is to hide the immoral or illegal practise. I wonder if the same applies to your boss' refusal to provide information about 1) profit/loss of Ginko investments during past 12 months and 2) the whereabouts of 18 million L$ (>60000 US$) that he collected in deposits from residents.

For one, we didn't try to hide anything. And two, we're not listening into private convertsations; finding SLs hot and latest gossips and personal relationships. Its a green dot on a map. What immoral bounds are we breaking here?

Kindly keep on topic -- I believe it was made quite clear in previous threads that that particular issue was to be kept to private message.

CCC

If anyone thinks that there aren't a dozen or more other devices in common usage out there that use a scanner or record other data when they have no need to do so for their main functionality, they're being incredibly naive.

I know of (knew of?) a networked vendor system that recorded the chat of the people around it (for customer reaction feedback, I'm sure )

As I said in my earlier post, I appologize for not making the existance of this script more known, it was a personal side project of mine, and like most of my personal projects, I'm prone to distra--- Hey look, a kitty!

I'll try to mention it to land owners before we place ATMs, and when I'm not feeling tired and lazy, I'll update some pieces of the website to make more note of it.

And I respect your zoning rules, and the requests of those who don't want this in their sim, and am not stressing anyone to leave them there if they don't want it.

EDIT: And the script doesn't record movement data, it records the location of each person ONCE, ever. Though, again, all you have is my word. That and the script I provided in my previous post, but I could have made that all up.

-Hinoserm

Even as someone who is inclined to believe that Ginko is up to some less than legit practices, I fail to see how this thread is "part II" when it has nothing to do with the subject matter of the original post about them.

It's part II because it has to do with Ginko, but no longer has to do with Anshes first topic about Ginko. It's kinda like a little volume of books.

Yeah, I understand this, and I've considered removing the location recording code, but I'm not sure it would help anything at all at this point.

-Hinoserm

Wouldn't that be something like if "Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers" turned out to be about Frodo going out and buying a new pair of socks?

Its more like a informational text then it is a story novel.

Hmmm ... These bounds, IMHO:
If this is "immoral" is a question anyone has to decide for himself. "Morality" is subjective. Let's just say that in most jurisdictions I am aware of, you could bring such a case to court.

Try? not lazy? That's a nice way of doing business, particually for someone with such big plans.


If you understand it, you probably also agree with it. Then removing the code would be the right thing to do, period. And if that doesn't improve your image so be it. Keeping it anyway will only harm you more at this point.

Depending on how much people (especially your customers and the landowners where you place your terminals) trust your word, it would help a lot!

The polite way to implement such a functionality (which I find very useful), would be to get the permissiom of the landowners involved.

And in First Life - depending on what jurisdiction is relevant for you - said landowners might at least have to inform all those that could be scanned by your systems.

Harm our image? Since when has our image been harmed? If people are getting outraged that we are doing basically the same thing the SL map does, then well... thats just silly.

The data thats being logged is the exact same as someone taking a snap shot of the SL map twice a day. There is no issue of morality. There isn't even an issue.

Who cares if someone knows you were near a Ginko terminal? Jeez. You're standing in a public place, hanging out, shopping, whatever... no one is "tracking" you back to your imaginary prim house to watch you do the nasty with that prim sheep you made.

There is no "OMG WE'RE BEING VIOLATED" here. You people have no idea how many times your picture is taken in public these days IRL, do you?

(my emboldening)

At first I didnt have a problem with the sensor. Almost everyone has that free radar script that tells them [Someones Name@21]. It's what lag this thing could be causing that bothers me. But once i learned from my fellow staff members what this thing was doing i completely changed my opinion. I read over the script briefly and i still dont find it acceptable. But i guess thats up to the rest of the staff to agree on. I pulled out my $L just to be safe. I allways had good service from ginko so im not AGAINST them but you never know whats in store. Why does it have to scan anyway? I know GF told us allready, but stil. Just place the ATM to only manage peoples money. Thats all it needs to do. I guess this is the SL alternative to the built in camara.

Well it looks like it would at least be a valuable function for the Ginko ATM to also dispense tin foil hats.

Psst! I know of several hundred builds that have BUILT IN VISITOR COUNTERS!!!! THAT LOG YOUR UUID AND NAME!!! AND THEY HAVE THE CHEEK TO DISGUISE IT AS A HOUSE!!! ZOMGZ!!!!

Doing more than advertised. An ATM is supposed to be an automated teller machine, dispense money, manage accounts. Not also use up simulator resources for other, especially unadvertised, purposes.

All ya gotta do is to add in an option for the ATM owner to opt-out of any additioinal "features" that benefit your company. Or at least, inform them (and not in some small, "nice-type" about what you are doing.

Wow AnsheCorp, you almost had my sympathy of late for the fact that LL is treating you like they do all their customers - as an irritant.

Now I hope they divest you of all your properties and give them to greifer accounts.

Help, help, a merchant is tracking my presence when I happen to be near their outlets, just like about every other merchant in-game. My non-existant privacy is being violated for non-nefarious purposes whenever I'm near a Ginko terminal which is like.... umm never.