From: Planetfall Dagger
i can't be the first to bring this up...
surely.
No, you're not the first to bring this sort of thing up, and you won't be the last. Yes, SL works differently than other 3D modeling programs, and yes, there are some very good reasons why. If you're interested real answers to your questions, read on, and you'll benefit from the learning. If you're not, then SL's probably not the place for you, and I wish you luck in whatever else you end up doing.
From: Planetfall Dagger
the 3d modelling tool in your program is the worst i have ever used.
If that's really the case, then I would submit that you probably haven't tried very many. There are some real doozies out there.
Anyway, it depends on your definition of "worst". Context is very important, don't forget.
You're right that SL does not have many of the "standard" tools that more traditional 3D modeling applications have. There are many things, 3D wise, that it simply cannot do. However, there are also many things SL does that no 3D modeling program can do.
As I often say when stuff like this comes up, you could build a much nicer looking sand castle in Max or Maya than you could in SL, but you wouldn't be able to move into it. In SL, your castle won't be as pretty, but you do get to live in it. So is the Maya/Max castle really "better"? In some aspects, yes, it is, but in other ways it's way worse.
SL is absolutely not the best 3D modeling application there is by any stretch. It's also might not be the best social platform either. It's not meant to be either of those things. What it is is the best
combination of the two that currently exists on this planet.
So, if your goal is to build film-quality models, stick with Maya or Max. If it's just to socialize, go outside and meet people. However, if your goal is to build compelling 3D content in a persistent virtual world where you can socialize at the same time, then SL is hands down the best place to do that. No other virtual world even comes close.
its a wonder anything ever gets built at all with that interface.
From: Planetfall Dagger
are there any plans to make the program usable by humans along the lines of sketchup and/or 3ds max?
Are you saying all of us that are good at using SL are not human? That's a hell of a way to introduce yourself to the community.
Anyway, the answer is yes and no. There are currently lots of plans in the works to make SL easier to use.
Will it be like Sketchup? God, I hope not. Sketchup is a really, really, really silly program, in my opinion. I could get into all the reasons why, but I don't want to get side tracked here.
Will it be more like Max? Certain aspects likely will,yes. Max's interface isn't exactly a prize either though, in all frankness. It's a great program, for sure, but it could certainly stand some improvement of its own.
What I'd really like to see for SL is an interface that combines the best and most applicable aspects of Maya and Photoshop. A Photoshop-style interface is an obvious choice since it's the most well documented program on the planet, and because so many people are already familiar with it. There's a reason why the Photoshop interface has been the most borrowed-from and most imitated interface in software history. Why not let SL ride that same coat tail?
Incorporating some of Maya's aspects also makes a great deal of sense since Maya is not only the best 3D application there is, but its interface really is how a computer should work. Most people who use it regularly or even semi-regularly will all tell you the same story after a day or two. They inevitably end up trying without thinking to manipulate things in other programs the way they'd be manipulated in Maya. That really tells you something. When the folks at Alias designed Maya's controls, they touched on something the human user responds to very deeply. That's powerful stuff. If we could capitalize on that same sort of thing in SL, it would be huge.
I've actually been working on a GUI mockup in my spare time (not that I have much of that these days) which incorporates just what I've been talking about, by the way. When it's ready, I'll be submitting it to certain top developers who are working with the open source Second Life client.
On a side note, I suspect that Linden Lab wants out of the client business. Their real talent lies on the server side, and I'm sure SL would be a better place if that were they only thing LL needed to focus on. Let third parties handle the client. If SL truly is to become the next incarnation of the internet, that's the only way to go about it anyway.
From: Planetfall Dagger
why cant polygons be edited?
why cant 3d files be imported?
why cant i extrude a bloody hexagon?
Okay, now for the good stuff. Remember in the beginning, I said there were good reasons why SL is the way it is? Well, the answers to these questions of yours right here are the crux of it. I've talked about this many times, so rather than write it all out again, allow me to quote myself from previous conversations on this subject:
From: Chosen Few
The reason is that unlike any other 3D environment, SL is 100% user created, and 100% streamed. There is no permanent geometry whatsoever. The world changes literally every moment.
There are many problems that would need to be solved before arbitrary meshes could work in SL. The biggest is level of detail. Most amateurs are not going to have the time or the know-how to create meshes with pre-set variable LOD built in, so we'd need a way for the system to automate it. Unfortunately, there's really no good way at present for the system to intelligently judge polygon reduction over distance. It could be done strictly by math of course, but the results in many cases, if not most cases, would be less than pretty. For example, you could model the Statue of Liberty in exquisite detail, and from up close she could look great, but from any significant distance she'd probably look like nothing but a lumpy green blob as her polygons begin to reduce as the camera moves further away. That's a hard problem to solve.
The alternative would be not to use LOD, but if you think SL's laggy now, imagine what would happen if poly counts were never reduced by distance. There would be very few computers on Earth that would be able to handle SL in any semblance of real time if that were the case.
Another problem is bandwidth. If arbitrary meshes were to be used, the instructions for how to create every single polygon would have to be streamed to every single client for every single model. That would be an incredible amount of data.
By using a common set of parametric objects as building blocks for everything as SL does now, the process is streamlined. Since every client computer enters the world with foreknowledge of ow to make each type of primitive, the only data that needs to be streamed is where to put the prims, what size to make them, how to rotate them, etc. That's a relatively tiny amount of information.
Also, how do you calculate physics with an arbitrary mesh? There have been many suggestions on this, but none have been ideal.
LL has said many times that they do want eventually to allow mesh modeling in SL, and when that day comes, we'll all rejoice. However, these technical obstacles have to be overcome first, and none of them are easy.
In the here and now, what you need to do is learn how SL's present modeling system works, the same way you had to learn how Max worked back when you started with that.
As a professional 3D modeler myself, I can promise you that getting good at modeling in SL will make you better at modeling in Max. Because SL is so limited, it forces you to use a specific type of problem solving intelligence that more sophisticated modeling applications let you bypass. The result of exercising those problem solving skills is you become a much more efficient modeler, both inside SL and out.
Once I started getting good in SL, I found that my average poly counts per model in Maya were going way down while the visual quality was going way up. Also, my texturing skills increased at least a hundred fold.
Give it a little time, and I'm sure you'll say the same thing.
From: Planetfall Dagger
when i 'link' a number of objects (a painstakingly looong way to get a solid that resembles a simple hexagon!) and i attempt to 'squish' that 'group' of objects via the x y or z spinner, only ONE of the objects in the group is affected!
Yes, we do need better manipulation tools. There's no question about that. In the mean time though, you have two choices. You can either miss the boat entirely by standing around bitching about the features it doesn't have while it sails right by, or you can jump on board and do a great job in spite of not having the tools you wish you had. The latter is what the rest of us are doing, and we're all fine with it. I invite you and challenge you to join us.
In any case, a hexagon only requires 3 prims, and can be made in 2-3 seconds, 10 if you're really slow. I'd hardly call that "painstakingly long".
From: Planetfall Dagger
it seems like a joke, or a plot to waste the time of talented people.
am i mistaken?
Yes, you're VERY mistaken. It's either 4 million other people don't get it, or just one (you) doesn't get it. What are the odds, buddy?
I dare say I think I'd fit your description of "talented people", and you'd be hard pressed to convince me I'm "wasting my time". I've been in SL well over three years now, and I've enjoyed every minute of it. For the past half year or so, creating content for SL has actually been my full time job, and I can promise you it's the best job I've ever had. I'm well paid, I work for one of the coolest companies on Earth with a client list that would make your head spin, and I get to work in my underwear. I don't know what the term is for the furthest extreme opposite of time-wasting, but whatever it is, they should put a picture of SL next to it in the dictionary, at least from my point of view.
Remember what the guy in The Last Samurai said about the cherry blossom? "You could spend your whole life searching for one, and it would be a life well spent." Well, you could spend your life in front of the computer using SL and it would be... you get the idea
I'd encourage you not to judge so harshly so quickly. Slow down, man. Look around. Take a breath. Learn to enjoy (second) life for what it is. In other words, quitchya bitchin'!
I take it from your name that you're probably a gamer, which means you're undoubtedly the competitive sort. Maybe this will help. Take a look at all the really good content that exists in SL. There's a lot of crap, of course, but there's a ton of really stunning work as well. Everything you see in SL, from the bad stuff to the amazing stuff, was all made with the exact same tool set that you described as the "worst you've ever used". The only difference between the low quality work and the high quality work therefore is who's at the helm.
Do you really mean to say that all the people who are making great stuff in SL are that much better than you? Are you really unable to make anything good without having more advanced modeling software do all the work for you? Come on, I know that can't be the case. Prove me right. I dare you.
I also like to say that, many of the very best hitsongs in history were written with a cheap acoustic guitar, a pencil and piece of paper.
(Aelin 184,194,22)