Second Life Forums Archive - Builders - Please Read

Heart Wishbringer

The One & Only "Heart"

Join date: 22 Nov 2004

Posts: 284

10-25-2005 13:42

Hi.
For the past 5-6 months, Joe and I have been frustrated to no end, by the Local Axis being off on things we build. We would complain to the lindens, and no one really understood, not even them. It was hard to explain, but basically, when building an item with a lot of prims, and linking them, the local axis which is supposed to follow the axis of the parent prim ( last prim selected to be linked ) quit working. This happened many updates ago.

Well after hearing Joe complain to many people, lots of other builders, me, and lindens, without anyone understanding him or coming up with a solution, I decided to try to figure it out... I told him I could figure it out with a simple experiment. I laid out some prims, rotated them all differently, linked them all, then numbered them all, I kept the parent prim perfectly straight. I picked the parent prim then checked the local axis. I noticed it was again off center.

I went through the process of checking each child prim, tilting and turning them until I figured out which of the child prims the local axis was now following... and Viola, I figured it out!

Local axis was following not the parent prim, but the first child linked which it should not be doing.

In essence what has happened, a few updates ago, is that in the SL programming the parent prim is now the first prim selected, and not the last.

Easy solution, is to now not think of the last prim as the parent, but the first, but only for axis issues.

For some reason, the last prim still acts as the parent in naming and such, but NOT axis.

Now if you build up a whole object from one prim and never change it's rotation on all planes you wont notice this, try to build something with different rotations and link them all and you will see what I mean.. or even more simply...

1) lay out two prims a box and a sphere.
2) make the box the parent prim when you link them
3) go to edit, select edit linked parts, so you edit only the child prim... and look at local axis, rotate the sphere ( child prim )
4) see how this effects the local axis?
5) now doing same thing ( edit linked parts ) rotate the parent prim.. see how this doesn't?

A programming error, so from now on when building think of the first child as the parent until they can figure out how to fix this error.

Heart

_____________________

Myspace: www.myspace.com/heartshinegirl

Documentary Series about Heart & Joe:
http://www.itv.com/Soaps/WebLives/SecondLifers/default.html

Our Story: Google Rhonda Lillie & Paul Hawkins

We appeared on TV, in Newspapers, and Magazines all around the UK. All because of a dream to be together in real life, after meeting in Second Life.

Chosen Few

Alpha Channel Slave

Join date: 16 Jan 2004

Posts: 7,496

10-25-2005 14:55

Thanks for the info, Heart.

_____________________

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Land now available for rent in Indigo. Low rates. Quiet, low-lag mainland sim with good neighbors. IM me in-world if you're interested.

Bertha Horton

Fat w/ Ice Cream

Join date: 19 Sep 2005

Posts: 835

10-25-2005 23:25

This actually happened to me! I made a sphere and moved it on the X axis about 1/3 meter, but only the axis moved while the sphere stayed put! This was very disconcerting. It wasn't linked to anything either. I had to Ctrl-Z again and again until it stopped doing that.

_____________________

Trapped in a world she never made!

Tateru Nino

Girl Genius

Join date: 13 Sep 2005

Posts: 312

10-26-2005 00:41

This is the same issue that plagues(plagued?) llRezAtRoot().

_____________________

Heart Wishbringer

The One & Only "Heart"

Join date: 22 Nov 2004

Posts: 284

Parent Prim No Longer Last Prim Selected : Axis

10-26-2005 01:01

Well my post was to point out that when you link a group of prims, the first prim linked was taking over being parent rather than the last prim when rotating or positioning the set of prims on the local axis. Local axis was, and should always be set to be the axis of the parent prim. Local axis was prior to an update about 5-6 months the main prim in which you'd position the entire multi prim object. For example... when building hair a lot of designers would end the hair design with one ball right in the middle of the head, they'd link all the hair pieces before linking to that final ball which was always purposely set balanced, this was done so that the hair would be able to be easily adjusted on the head. However, what is now happening, is the last prim is not the one upon which we can rely to keep that balance. All prims are not following the last prims axis anymore. When you build now, all prims are following the very first prim that is linked, or rather the first child prim. This may be ok, if the first child prim is balanced on the x,y,z axis, but if it is not, the local axis will adopt whatever axis that child prim has.

This can be frustrating for scriptors as well, because although in all other cases ( naming the set of prims for example ) the last prim remains the parent, but upon editing the set of prims and rotating them as a whole, the entire object of prims turns on the axis of the child prim.

I'd guess that programmers in the game, trying to move the object using scripts may find that their objects are moving oddly, and not moving on the proper axis, perhaps the object is acting as if the axi are all off balance.

Again, this is because the axis is not where it should be under Local Axis.

As I said before, link 2 prims and move them both under edit individual and have local axis on and you can see which one of the prims is causing the axis to be changed. It will show that the parent prim is no longer holding the x,y,z axis in local as it should be. So to remedy this, just build as if the first prim is the parent prim from now on, and the last prim just holds the name of the primmed object. Then, you'll be fine.

Heart

_____________________

Myspace: www.myspace.com/heartshinegirl

Documentary Series about Heart & Joe:
http://www.itv.com/Soaps/WebLives/SecondLifers/default.html

Our Story: Google Rhonda Lillie & Paul Hawkins

We appeared on TV, in Newspapers, and Magazines all around the UK. All because of a dream to be together in real life, after meeting in Second Life.

Jesrad Seraph

Nonsense

Join date: 11 Dec 2004

Posts: 1,463

10-26-2005 01:13

*bump*

Very important notice, thanks Heart

_____________________

Either Man can enjoy universal freedom, or Man cannot. If it is possible then everyone can act freely if they don't stop anyone else from doing same. If it is not possible, then conflict will arise anyway so punch those that try to stop you. In conclusion the only strategy that wins in all cases is that of doing what you want against all adversity, as long as you respect that right in others.

Copper Surface

Wandering Carroteer

Join date: 6 Jul 2005

Posts: 157

10-26-2005 02:11

Hear, hear. I had suspected something like this, but attributed it to my dubious building skillz after reading the wiki.

Chosen Few

Alpha Channel Slave

Join date: 16 Jan 2004

Posts: 7,496

10-26-2005 08:31

From: Bertha Horton

This actually happened to me! I made a sphere and moved it on the X axis about 1/3 meter, but only the axis moved while the sphere stayed put! This was very disconcerting. It wasn't linked to anything either. I had to Ctrl-Z again and again until it stopped doing that.

Bertha, what you're describing is an entirely different bug. Best I can theorize, it's a glitch either in the cache update process, or in the graphics. You tell an object to move by the numbers, you see the manipulator move, but the object appears to stay put. In actuality, the object has moved but for whatever reason, the viewer is too lazy to redraw it just yet.

Next time it happens, do this. Touch one of the up/down arrows on the rotational settings, any one of them, doesn't matter which. As soon as the rotation changes by one degree, you'll see the object snap to the location it's supposed to be in. Then just click the opposite arrow to set the rotation back to normal. It takes all of about 1/10 of a second, and it works every time. Apparently, when location and rotation both change, the viewer will always redraw, but when it's just location, it will only sometimes redraw.

I hope this was helpful.

Anyway, I'd suggest you re-read the original post. The bug described there is much harder to deal with. Both are annoying, but one is just a temporary client-side illusion, and the other is a systemic problem with much larger implications, affecting scripts, building, physics, etc. The information Heart provided is a tremendous help.

_____________________

.

Land now available for rent in Indigo. Low rates. Quiet, low-lag mainland sim with good neighbors. IM me in-world if you're interested.

Tengu Yamabushi

Registered User

Join date: 25 Sep 2005

Posts: 191

Thank you!

10-26-2005 08:42

Like others in this thread I've been bitten by this issue, but had chalked it up to my misunderstanding/misapplication of what I've been able to glean from the Ivory Tower, Wiki, and other sources.

Thanks to your post, I'm sure I'll be much more productive (and less frustrated!) during building.

/me bows deeply

- Tengu Yamabushi

Omaire Abattoir

O-Magine

Join date: 26 Jun 2004

Posts: 86

10-26-2005 10:01

Awesome information, TY!

O

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Builders - Please Read - Re: Local Axis Issue Solution

Builders - Please Read - Re: Local Axis Issue Solution
Heart Wishbringer The One & Only "Heart" Join date: 22 Nov 2004 Posts: 284	10-25-2005 13:42 Hi. For the past 5-6 months, Joe and I have been frustrated to no end, by the Local Axis being off on things we build. We would complain to the lindens, and no one really understood, not even them. It was hard to explain, but basically, when building an item with a lot of prims, and linking them, the local axis which is supposed to follow the axis of the parent prim ( last prim selected to be linked ) quit working. This happened many updates ago. Well after hearing Joe complain to many people, lots of other builders, me, and lindens, without anyone understanding him or coming up with a solution, I decided to try to figure it out... I told him I could figure it out with a simple experiment. I laid out some prims, rotated them all differently, linked them all, then numbered them all, I kept the parent prim perfectly straight. I picked the parent prim then checked the local axis. I noticed it was again off center. I went through the process of checking each child prim, tilting and turning them until I figured out which of the child prims the local axis was now following... and Viola, I figured it out! Local axis was following not the parent prim, but the first child linked which it should not be doing. In essence what has happened, a few updates ago, is that in the SL programming the parent prim is now the first prim selected, and not the last. Easy solution, is to now not think of the last prim as the parent, but the first, but only for axis issues. For some reason, the last prim still acts as the parent in naming and such, but NOT axis. Now if you build up a whole object from one prim and never change it's rotation on all planes you wont notice this, try to build something with different rotations and link them all and you will see what I mean.. or even more simply... 1) lay out two prims a box and a sphere. 2) make the box the parent prim when you link them 3) go to edit, select edit linked parts, so you edit only the child prim... and look at local axis, rotate the sphere ( child prim ) 4) see how this effects the local axis? 5) now doing same thing ( edit linked parts ) rotate the parent prim.. see how this doesn't? A programming error, so from now on when building think of the first child as the parent until they can figure out how to fix this error. Heart _____________________ Myspace: www.myspace.com/heartshinegirl Documentary Series about Heart & Joe: http://www.itv.com/Soaps/WebLives/SecondLifers/default.html Our Story: Google Rhonda Lillie & Paul Hawkins We appeared on TV, in Newspapers, and Magazines all around the UK. All because of a dream to be together in real life, after meeting in Second Life.
Chosen Few Alpha Channel Slave Join date: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 7,496	10-25-2005 14:55 Thanks for the info, Heart. _____________________ . Land now available for rent in Indigo. Low rates. Quiet, low-lag mainland sim with good neighbors. IM me in-world if you're interested.
Bertha Horton Fat w/ Ice Cream Join date: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 835	10-25-2005 23:25 This actually happened to me! I made a sphere and moved it on the X axis about 1/3 meter, but only the axis moved while the sphere stayed put! This was very disconcerting. It wasn't linked to anything either. I had to Ctrl-Z again and again until it stopped doing that. _____________________ Trapped in a world she never made!
Tateru Nino Girl Genius Join date: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 312	10-26-2005 00:41 This is the same issue that plagues(plagued?) llRezAtRoot(). _____________________
Heart Wishbringer The One & Only "Heart" Join date: 22 Nov 2004 Posts: 284	Parent Prim No Longer Last Prim Selected : Axis 10-26-2005 01:01 Well my post was to point out that when you link a group of prims, the first prim linked was taking over being parent rather than the last prim when rotating or positioning the set of prims on the local axis. Local axis was, and should always be set to be the axis of the parent prim. Local axis was prior to an update about 5-6 months the main prim in which you'd position the entire multi prim object. For example... when building hair a lot of designers would end the hair design with one ball right in the middle of the head, they'd link all the hair pieces before linking to that final ball which was always purposely set balanced, this was done so that the hair would be able to be easily adjusted on the head. However, what is now happening, is the last prim is not the one upon which we can rely to keep that balance. All prims are not following the last prims axis anymore. When you build now, all prims are following the very first prim that is linked, or rather the first child prim. This may be ok, if the first child prim is balanced on the x,y,z axis, but if it is not, the local axis will adopt whatever axis that child prim has. This can be frustrating for scriptors as well, because although in all other cases ( naming the set of prims for example ) the last prim remains the parent, but upon editing the set of prims and rotating them as a whole, the entire object of prims turns on the axis of the child prim. I'd guess that programmers in the game, trying to move the object using scripts may find that their objects are moving oddly, and not moving on the proper axis, perhaps the object is acting as if the axi are all off balance. Again, this is because the axis is not where it should be under Local Axis. As I said before, link 2 prims and move them both under edit individual and have local axis on and you can see which one of the prims is causing the axis to be changed. It will show that the parent prim is no longer holding the x,y,z axis in local as it should be. So to remedy this, just build as if the first prim is the parent prim from now on, and the last prim just holds the name of the primmed object. Then, you'll be fine. Heart _____________________ Myspace: www.myspace.com/heartshinegirl Documentary Series about Heart & Joe: http://www.itv.com/Soaps/WebLives/SecondLifers/default.html Our Story: Google Rhonda Lillie & Paul Hawkins We appeared on TV, in Newspapers, and Magazines all around the UK. All because of a dream to be together in real life, after meeting in Second Life.
Jesrad Seraph Nonsense Join date: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 1,463	10-26-2005 01:13 bump Very important notice, thanks Heart _____________________ Either Man can enjoy universal freedom, or Man cannot. If it is possible then everyone can act freely if they don't stop anyone else from doing same. If it is not possible, then conflict will arise anyway so punch those that try to stop you. In conclusion the only strategy that wins in all cases is that of doing what you want against all adversity, as long as you respect that right in others.
Copper Surface Wandering Carroteer Join date: 6 Jul 2005 Posts: 157	10-26-2005 02:11 Hear, hear. I had suspected something like this, but attributed it to my dubious building skillz after reading the wiki.
Chosen Few Alpha Channel Slave Join date: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 7,496	10-26-2005 08:31 From: Bertha Horton This actually happened to me! I made a sphere and moved it on the X axis about 1/3 meter, but only the axis moved while the sphere stayed put! This was very disconcerting. It wasn't linked to anything either. I had to Ctrl-Z again and again until it stopped doing that. Bertha, what you're describing is an entirely different bug. Best I can theorize, it's a glitch either in the cache update process, or in the graphics. You tell an object to move by the numbers, you see the manipulator move, but the object appears to stay put. In actuality, the object has moved but for whatever reason, the viewer is too lazy to redraw it just yet. Next time it happens, do this. Touch one of the up/down arrows on the rotational settings, any one of them, doesn't matter which. As soon as the rotation changes by one degree, you'll see the object snap to the location it's supposed to be in. Then just click the opposite arrow to set the rotation back to normal. It takes all of about 1/10 of a second, and it works every time. Apparently, when location and rotation both change, the viewer will always redraw, but when it's just location, it will only sometimes redraw. I hope this was helpful. Anyway, I'd suggest you re-read the original post. The bug described there is much harder to deal with. Both are annoying, but one is just a temporary client-side illusion, and the other is a systemic problem with much larger implications, affecting scripts, building, physics, etc. The information Heart provided is a tremendous help. _____________________ . Land now available for rent in Indigo. Low rates. Quiet, low-lag mainland sim with good neighbors. IM me in-world if you're interested.
Tengu Yamabushi Registered User Join date: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 191	Thank you! 10-26-2005 08:42 Like others in this thread I've been bitten by this issue, but had chalked it up to my misunderstanding/misapplication of what I've been able to glean from the Ivory Tower, Wiki, and other sources. Thanks to your post, I'm sure I'll be much more productive (and less frustrated!) during building. /me bows deeply - Tengu Yamabushi
Omaire Abattoir O-Magine Join date: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 86	10-26-2005 10:01 Awesome information, TY! O _____________________ Avs - Furniture - Other Cool Stuff