Thinkers on Tuesday -- Memes

The following transcript is lightly edited, to use Hamlet's term for his Lessig transcript. I've elided many of my own host noises, the conversation with that person who became inextricably trapped in the trees, and so on.

Unfortunately we no longer have Ulrika's software available to make transcripts like these easy to read. If I were using it for this transcript, the software would replace all instances of 'You: ' with 'Traxx Hathor: '.


Bodhi Kojima: this oughta be good
You: welcome to Miramare : )
You: Last week at least one person said he doesn't like memes
You: Hope he shows up
Bodhi Kojima: i am guessing by the time frame this is mostly british?
You: Last week it was
You: Hey jesz
Bodhi Kojima laughs

You: Scope, I haven't seen you at a Thinkers meeting before
Scope Cleaver: Hello all, yes this is my first time
Scope Cleaver: Is it private, I don't want to interupt anything
You: If you decide you like the group anyone with Prefect in their title can give you an invitation
You: it's not private
Scope Cleaver: I would love an invitation yes
jesz Murakami: just landed
jesz Murakami: traxx --great write-up
You: thanks : )
Davos Desmoulins: hi all
You: Hi Davos
You: you for or against memes?

Davos Desmoulins: I'm for them of course =)
jesz Murakami: there r only pre-memes now
Scope Cleaver: Woulb being against them or for them have any impeding impact on their ability to replicate?
You: Actually they are supposed to be able to replicate without human intention

You: Welcome to my construction site, Ichiro
jesz Murakami: y for or againts - thats a duality meme
Ichiro Tokugawa: Thanks

You: For our new member here's a summary of the rules
You: attack ideas not people!
Davos Desmoulins: that's a hard one =)
Scope Cleaver: no ad hominems

Ichiro Tokugawa: Good meme site = http://www.naqoy.com/naqoy/links.asp

jesz Murakami: r we gonna deal with memes as literary metaphor or cultural gene equivalents
Davos Desmoulins: oh, hi, dagny
You: hiya Dagny
You: we could do either or both
You: what's your preference?
Dagny Hemingway: Hi there. all, - Davos!
jesz Murakami: both with clarity
You: : )
Scope Cleaver: I'd prefer metaphors
You: why don't you specify what you mean by a meme then
jesz Murakami: mainly how used now
You: in the cultural evolution sense first
Chase Speculaas: cultural evolution, woot
You: welcome neand
neand Fleming: thx
Scope Cleaver: As I have some reservations as to thir
jesz Murakami: as i said there r noe gene equive memes only pre meme 'MNA' frags
Scope Cleaver: potential as genes equivelents
jesz Murakami: yes
jesz Murakami: not as but towards
Chase Speculaas: only in the realm of ideas, Scope
You: analogue of DNA?
jesz Murakami: MNA equiv DNA
jesz Murakami: hokey but workable/usable

Scope Cleaver: I think there are curcial difference between the two which for instance could affect a meme's credibility as being efficacious
jesz Murakami: memetics can be technology of societal evolution
Ichiro Tokugawa: meme: a unit of cultural inheritance hypothesized as analogous to the particulate gene and as naturally selected by virtue of its 'phenotypic' consequences on its own survival and replication in the cultural environment
You: by efficacious you mean the paradigm being fruitful I take it
jesz Murakami: howso scope
Dagny Hemingway: If a meme is not efficacious, doesn't that disqualify it as 'meme'?
Chase Speculaas: ah... I see what Scope means... prehaps, leave the "evolution" part and take out the "genetic" part?
jesz Murakami: genotype--phenotype--memotype
Scope Cleaver: Well for instace as gene being something contingent whereas I assume that ideas in themelves would operate on something out of necessity
You: well isn't phenotype concerned with the expression of a genotype?
Chase Speculaas: exactly Scope
Simon Jezebel: yes TRaxx
You: I've read that memes have no reference genotype
Chase Speculaas: no
You: that's a big flaw in the analogy
Chase Speculaas: they don't
Chase Speculaas: memes are just... ideas... I liken them more to viruses
Scope Cleaver: So by that difference there could be some objection as to whether memes are really efficacious
You: If memes DID have a reference database they could be more powerful
jesz Murakami: yes traxx and memotype of phenotype
Chase Speculaas: in that they have to have a carier to "exist" per se, and they have to spread to be "successful"
You: Scope, we have two contexts for efficacious going right now
You: which do you mean?
Simon Jezebel:
Scope Cleaver: it could have a reference database if some people hold for instance that the fundamtal units of an idea is mathematics
jesz Murakami: there r no memes yet just proto-memes
You: that's what you meant by fragments?
You: proto-memes?
jesz Murakami: memes r not just ideas a wink is a meme
You: I'd accept that
Chase Speculaas: well, the "meaning" of the wink is a meme...
jesz Murakami: check out carl woese on cellular evolution
Chase Speculaas: and, said "meaning" is an idea
jesz Murakami: it may be meme too
Scope Cleaver: thats at least controversial
jesz Murakami: but wink is not an idea
jesz Murakami: its supposed meaning may be
Scope Cleaver: if some pretended that language is the world

You: Welcome, Paradigm : )
Scope Cleaver: and language is a meme, its very litle step to idealism
Chase Speculaas: when you say wink, are you talking about the physical closing of the eye for an instant, or the "wink wink" idea behind it?
Paradigm Brodsky waves
Paradigm Brodsky: thanks
You: The concept has a physical instantiation
You: You might want to include that for clarity
jesz Murakami: chase neiter-thoboth- im meaning the coomunication of feeling rather than thought
Davos Desmoulins: I'd say something like "taxation is theft" is a meme.. but the idea of taxation is not a meme =)
jesz Murakami: taxation is meme
Simon Jezebel: I need a lubricant
jesz Murakami: all psyche constructions are memetic
You: taxation sounds like one component of an institution....
Paradigm Brodsky looks for a soft warm lap
Scope Cleaver: well the important question is how can we agree on a definition of a meme that would make it usefull
jesz Murakami: tho there r no memes yet
Scope Cleaver: saying pretty much everything is a meme don't really help
You: agreed
jesz Murakami: relate to gene is one approach
neand Fleming: what makes a definition useful in this context?
Scope Cleaver: So am assuming that if saying taxation is a candidate, what can't?
jesz Murakami: tho most are relating to literary metaphor
Davos Desmoulins: genes are actually quite complex.. so a meme should be a composite too
You: predictive capability, neand?
You: that's one standard
Scope Cleaver: yes exactly
neand Fleming: i think so
neand Fleming: an axiomatic character
You: that would be useful
You: then we could specify definitions of meme complexes precisely
jesz Murakami: we as a culture are in a precellular space the meme-stuf is horizonally transferred
Simon Jezebel: we should really build a Thinker dictionary
jesz Murakami: real meams wqould be more vertical
You: go for it, Simon : )
neand Fleming: great idea
Scope Cleaver: It could also be usefull as a tool to give us insight on how ideas organize and evolve
You: I'll store it here
You: ...notice the empty shelves.... : (
Simon Jezebel:
Simon Jezebel: ok
You: Scope, I agree with that
You: But how about crafting something new?
Scope Cleaver: and ultimately in consciousness
jesz Murakami: yes
Scope Cleaver: or social consciousness
You: Sl kinda lends itself to that
neand Fleming: new in what way?
You: Neal Nomad talks that way
jesz Murakami: new healthy species
You: He talks about evolving in SL
Chase Speculaas: yeah... too bad Neal isn't here
You: He seems to mean away from commercial imitation of RL
Scope Cleaver: I'd be glad to meet him
You: but I don't want to put words in his mouth
jesz Murakami: does he have plans for how
You: Well, he's always looking for other folks who feel the same way
You: Not an ego-driven type
You: Just wants to get the discussion going
You: Come on in, Xantha...
Scope Cleaver: he's not on right now?
You: Let me check....
Ichiro Tokugawa: Not on
Simon Jezebel: hey Xantha
You: Xantha, we've been wondering if the notion of memes as cultural evolution is useful
Xantha Oe: hi all
Xantha Oe: thanks
You: Or might help in framing experiments for synthetic cultural evolution in SL
jesz Murakami: sure traxx
Paradigm Brodsky scratches head
jesz Murakami: both
Simon Jezebel: synthetic Traxx?
You: jesz, what would you aim for?
You: synthetic being a disclaimer
Xantha Oe: hmm..maybe the SL experiment venue is good, memes may propagate more quickly here, and/or could be traced
Paradigm Brodsky thinks "I see lips moving, and I know these words mean something..."
jesz Murakami: a move to healthier species and genus
You: major aim
neand Fleming: it does seem that to be useful for prediction, it must have good basic definitions and an algebra to work within
You: exactly
jesz Murakami: from Homo sapien to Huma societus
Scope Cleaver: neand: Yes
Simon Jezebel: Homo Digitus
Paradigm Brodsky *scratch scratch*
jesz Murakami: and that can be played out in SL
You: well it would be easier to precisely specify a synthetic experiment here
jesz Murakami: and let there be reverse seepage to 1L
You: by synthetic I want to avoid sounding like I'm claiming it's useful for RL
jesz Murakami: the issue isnt useful
neand Fleming: all experience is finally rl isn't it/
Simon Jezebel: ha
neand Fleming: lol
jesz Murakami: but 1L is headed towards extinction
You: disagree

Simon Jezebel: but is RL shared of separate Neand, I think that is where mems are most useful
Simon Jezebel: *or
You: too much separation in my opinion....
Scope Cleaver: Well for those who have acess to the database or chat logs, they could maybe come with some kind of model how ideas in general propagate, and ultimatly link semantics into it
Simon Jezebel: indeed Traxx, see Frederic Jameson stand alone complex
You: Scope, that makes sense
You: got a link for that?
You: I had no idea the term was anything but the title of an anime
Davos Desmoulins: soes ll actually log everything here?
Simon Jezebel: oh yes, hey stole it!!
You: nah
Davos Desmoulins: it would be great if they did for memetics =)
Scope Cleaver: I don't know much about relational database, but they could maybe do some kind of data mining and come up with a tree of replication
You: that would be difficult
Scope Cleaver: like a genetric tree but with ideas
rednax Lamington: Hi there
You: the theory is like genetic evolution to the extent that it allows mutation and recombination
You: heya rednax
Scope Cleaver: and see whats the oldes ancestor for a particular meme
You: welcome to Thinkers on memes
rednax Lamington: What's happening here? lol
Simon Jezebel: confusion
You: we're talking about the meme theory
Simon Jezebel:
Paradigm Brodsky: Scuse to me!! But... I'm am not the understanding... What does communication have to do with genes, and vicer verser?
You: want to sit in?
Scope Cleaver: something we can't witness from within the world for sheer cognitive reasons
rednax Lamington: the what theory?? lol
Davos Desmoulins: it would be great if one had the database that included all the conversations here and then one could somehow extract how the memes evolve
You: Paradigm, a meme is supposed to be a unit of cultural evolution
Scope Cleaver: yea
Paradigm Brodsky: hmmm
You: Davos that database would be extremely boring!
Scope Cleaver: and make a tree of how word got more lets say _hits-
Paradigm Brodsky: survival of the fittest?
rednax Lamington: sure!... I don't think I can be of any support here...
Davos Desmoulins: yeah, it would require some automated tools =)
Davos Desmoulins: to make some sense out of it
Scope Cleaver: and graph how they gain momentum
Scope Cleaver: then from that you could go back to the source and analyse the where/when/why
You: I'd like to see controlled experiments like that
You: artificial memes
You: we could have a survival of the fittest meme contest : )
Scope Cleaver: and see what cultural components were in place when the meme started spreading
neand Fleming: does momentum assume an analogy to particle dynamics in social situations. is momentum conserved

jesz Murakami: what would u make them of traxx
You: neand, it's not a closed system
neand Fleming: exactly
Scope Cleaver: neand" thats an open question, I have no clue
You: jesz, are you asking what I would like to design?
neand Fleming: me either
Scope Cleaver: its an empirical question I believe
neand Fleming: sorry, didn't mean to detract
jesz Murakami: thet too but what material
Scope Cleaver: we could find out by doing experimental work
Scope Cleaver: Any agencies funding virtual people doing virtual research about ideas spreading... ? lol
You: I'm a big fan of getting one's hands dirty with experimental work
You: yes we could get our own sim
You: that seems to be the holy grail in SL
Scope Cleaver: I'd be willing to work on a plan
You: you're on!
jesz Murakami: i have design for one
Scope Cleaver: and possibly work with peole with experience in experiment design
You: this sounds promising : )
You: could I ask one thing --
jesz Murakami: based on i ching/dna meme
Dagny Hemingway: LOL jesz
Scope Cleaver: of course
Simon Jezebel: man, and I thought meme theory was buried
You: I've noticed how useful the Law Society group forum is for a reference database
Simon Jezebel:
You: Could we use the Thinkers group forum for this proposal?
jesz Murakami: simon --it aint started yet!\
You: It's helpful to have the ongoing materials available in one place
Scope Cleaver: As for the database there is probably nothing thats publicly acessible except maybe records of events like this here and there
rednax Lamington: Thx guys... I don't get it at all... bye!!!
You: cya red
Simon Jezebel: see ya
Paradigm Brodsky: lol
You: Welcome Nico
Paradigm Brodsky shouts: me niether d00d!
You: we're speculating about an actual experimental project
Nico Lycia: hello
Scope Cleaver: Unless LL is willing to give out information thats been filtered to be anonymous
You: and Paradign is the test subject!
Simon Jezebel: hahaha
neand Fleming: maybe it would help if you could describe a basic experiment
You: well we would have to get authorization from people who participate in chat
Scope Cleaver: Lemme ask
Scope Cleaver: a semi-technical question
jesz Murakami: as r those who make/do it
You: a basic experiment *could* use regularly sampled chatlog transcripts
Scope Cleaver: if we had control over an aread lets say a whole sim
You: yes
Scope Cleaver: could there be technically speaking a scrip that logs everything?
Scope Cleaver: given of course we have consent from the visitors
Scope Cleaver: and residnets
jesz Murakami: i have project up on flackattack.org (mite be com)

Simon Jezebel: I think the way you would do it is by handing out a recorder object that people would wear
You: that's interesting
Simon Jezebel: that way it doesn't matter what simyour in
jesz Murakami: its an SL wiki/mag from the Port
neand Fleming: that is an interesting way to start
You: I've heard of that, jesz
Scope Cleaver: But I asked someone last night and he told me there was no way to log the chat
Simon Jezebel: of course it would only recorded the carriers convo
jesz Murakami: my artic is question of autonomy
You: One problem is that the wearer always has to get consent from everyone
Scope Cleaver: you have to copy paste basically
Simon Jezebel: right Traxx
Simon Jezebel: good point
You: logistical point
jesz Murakami: its about a plan for societal evolution
You: anyone want to suggest an overall objective?
Scope Cleaver: but am sure there would be some way to work out the logistics
Simon Jezebel: with this conversation in this castle I feel kinda Machevalian
You: Simon, it's just supposed to be a civic type building
Simon Jezebel taps fingertips ominously
Scope Cleaver: yes an realistic objective would be to get a model
You: agreed
You: a precisely specified model
Scope Cleaver: We could hold another reunion and debate philosophically what we could deduce from that model
Simon Jezebel: at least make it work among ourselves
You: good start
Scope Cleaver: and make prescriptoins
Simon Jezebel: then we could approach Linden with a proposel
You: outside funding?
Simon Jezebel: member based?
You: I'd really like it to be under the aegis of Thinkers group
Paradigm Brodsky: Ok, You people are too smart for me. You have made my mind boggle and my computer expend all it's virtual memory. So I have to reboot. BRB
Simon Jezebel: if it's to be system wide
You: not a tiny specialzed group
jesz Murakami: check out USCs public diplomacy school
You: aww Paradigm
Simon Jezebel: Para, come back soon!

jesz Murakami: they want a positive game
You: indeed
Scope Cleaver: I think we could come up with guidelines pretty quickly
neand Fleming: if the objective is a model, how would it be verified?
jesz Murakami: for societal improvement
Simon Jezebel: well in LL's defense they want a game that grows
Simon Jezebel: not ness. positive
Scope Cleaver: i'd be happy to give time for experiment design
You: the model would have to be precisely specified enough to pass the tests of soundness and completeness
Scope Cleaver: They just told me no later than today that scalability is one of their main objectives
Simon Jezebel: yes, non-functional models get you no venture capital
You: Scope, could you write up your thoughts in a new thread in the Thinkers group forum?
Scope Cleaver: and ... consistency heh
jesz Murakami: y not invite hamlet linden over he's online
Scope Cleaver: I am terrible at writing
Simon Jezebel: yes yes Jesz!!
You: point form!
You: go ahead and invite him : )
Scope Cleaver: But make sure you give me the URL and i'll register
Simon Jezebel: is there such a thing as bad publicity?
You: The thing we're missing is an objective that makes sense outside the group
Simon Jezebel:

Scope Cleaver: but the premiss which I think is true and am asking all of you at the same time, is that there is something that is either going on or is going to happen from which we could learn a lot in terms of ideas and the way they evolve from an open system like S
You: Some useful contribution to a real world problem
Simon Jezebel: well, I think we would benefit from framing it in a what is SL kinda way
Scope Cleaver: I agree
Simon Jezebel: LL is making some dangerous choices as far as copyright and such
You: true
Scope Cleaver: Because we can gain _meta_ knowledge about it
Scope Cleaver: something thats very difficult to do in real life if not impossible
You: we seriously need better IP protection inside SL
Simon Jezebel: what we have to offer is a systamatized way of understanding how these ideas are diseminated through the game
Simon Jezebel: Yes Traxx totally
Scope Cleaver: yes

You: that discussion might focus on tecnical issues though
Scope Cleaver: I'd be ready to do some R&D on that
Scope Cleaver: provided I have some help
neand Fleming: i think you can talk about the value of foundation research, meta knowlege, but it might be too early to tell
Simon Jezebel: esp considering that guys recent lecture...what was his name I feel like a dope??
You: Scope I have in mind a thread to which we all contribute
You: Lessig?
Simon Jezebel: yup
You: Threads like that in the Law Society forum work well
Scope Cleaver: I wasn't there but I read the announcement
You: I was there
neand Fleming: there is nothing wrong with doing fundamental research
You: exactly
You: it clarifies the problems
jesz Murakami: invite sent : )
You: If anyone wants an invitation to join Thinkers IM me
Scope Cleaver: now that I am part of the group will I be invited automatically to discussions?
Simon Jezebel: we spam
You: you get spam
Scope Cleaver: I need an RSS feed in SL... lol
You: : D
Simon Jezebel: ahh, I'm working on a computer to do just that
Simon Jezebel: SL computer
Dagny Hemingway: RSs would be a boon, for sure.
You: The group forum is used to alert people of upcoming meetings, btw
Scope Cleaver: I've been told today that they will implement HTML browising in game
You: mainly to avoid scheduling conflicts
You: yes they intend that
You: soon, I'm told
Scope Cleaver: as a future release
Scope Cleaver: Its really the way to go
You: It should hit us before Havoc 2
Simon Jezebel: yeah the whole system is down this wed.
Scope Cleaver: I see, well great
Scope Cleaver: for the whole day?
Simon Jezebel: no, some hours I forget which
Simon Jezebel: release 1.82 I think

Scope Cleaver: Its going somewhere
Scope Cleaver: thx for the info
Scope Cleaver: Traxx would you suggest a formal meeting to sketch ou the steps?
You: there's your invitation, Dagny
You: Sure : )
You: Why don't we schedule another meeting on this topic?
Simon Jezebel: yes yes!
You: and see if we can get that thread going in the meantime
Scope Cleaver: Agreed
Simon Jezebel: I'm still a little new...where can I find that thread?
You: There are lots of other Thinkers meetings on various topics though
Scope Cleaver: We need to elect someone that will log the formal meetings, unless you are already doing that Traxx
You: I can certainly save transcripts

Scope Cleaver: Great
You: Does anyone object to my saving a transcript of this meeting?
Simon Jezebel: no
Dagny Hemingway: No objection.
Scope Cleaver: i.e they might turn out to be part of hte experiment itself
Simon Jezebel: hehe
Scope Cleaver: hehe

Scope Cleaver: altho to be rigorous we'd have to double blind the experiement
jesz Murakami: u better save transcripts
Simon Jezebel: is there a way you can web publish them Traxx so we can all analyze?
Simon Jezebel: yes Scope
Simon Jezebel: agreed

jesz Murakami: do a wiki --thinkers mag
Scope Cleaver: hehe
You: yes!
Scope Cleaver: a wiki in Sl that would be great

You: wikis are very useful
Scope Cleaver: indeed
Simon Jezebel: however I think it is enough to start not blind, and form a hypothesis, then test with a double blind set-up
jesz Murakami: look at flack it containes article and the 12 editorial meetings
You: Simon, could you outline your idea for that experimental design?
Scope Cleaver: As for myself, being conscious of the experiment, I would be a very bad actor
Simon Jezebel:
You: And write it up for the Thinkers group forum?
Scope Cleaver: being conscious of everything I say could be spread around lol

jesz Murakami: hamlet may be busy --no response
You: good point, Scope
Simon Jezebel: you mean outline baisc structure or design actual experiment
Simon Jezebel: ?
You: Just an outline of the objective and the design
Scope Cleaver: Altho stricly speaking, if they really act like genes they have their own imperatives, beyond my being able to control them
You: with a request for comment

Kipp Patton shouts: Is this the meme chat?
Scope Cleaver: for best or worst
You shout: yes, Kipp
You shout: main level

Simon Jezebel: Well, can we agree that a basic starting point would be to see how an idea/meme travels through SL
You: and we'd have to agree on what one of those is
Simon Jezebel: right
You: I could claim that camping chairs qualify, and you might dispute that
Simon Jezebel: no not at all

jesz Murakami: 1L/2L rathern SL/RL

Simon Jezebel: objects are what I was going to say are the easiest starting point
Scope Cleaver: but most ideas going around are not expressed
Simon Jezebel: there is no loss in'translation'
Scope Cleaver: we have to make a list of ways we'd consider an idea expressed
Scope Cleaver: were it in writing, a camoping chair, a song, a painting, etc
You: good list to contribute to
Scope Cleaver: and then go about tracking _that_

Simon Jezebel: I might suggest that we 'seed' SL with a meme object that we design and then observe how fast/far it spreads
You: Scope how about starting that list as a thread
Simon Jezebel: something that allowed user interaction / input would be best
jesz Murakami: ive been doing that one for a while the meme-ing is they are both real/unreal so RL is innacurate and confuing
Scope Cleaver: _Now_ am feeling machiavelan
Scope Cleaver: lol
You: heh
Simon Jezebel: lol
You: We should select one based on ease of tracking
Scope Cleaver: but I do not object, as I believe there are no ideas that are not worth spreading
Simon Jezebel: hmmm, yes
You: disagree, Scope
Simon Jezebel: which immediately rules out text
You: but that's another discussion
Scope Cleaver: Traxx: agree about the tracking
Scope Cleaver: it is yes

You: this is a technical consideration
Simon Jezebel: yes, but very basic to the possibility of experimental verification!
You: and a matter of getting consent from other residents in cases analogous to chat logs
You: very
Simon Jezebel: any suggestions as to object?
Scope Cleaver: /thiking

You: Let's put down ideas in the Thinkers forum for that, Simon
Simon Jezebel: ok Traxx
You: I'm going to have to wrap up the meeting
Scope Cleaver: I suggest it to model it against a nano machine
Scope Cleaver: like a nano idea
You: not a lot of time in the schedule
jesz Murakami: no lamarkian rat tail experimenmts they a BS
You: sweet : )
jesz Murakami: are
Simon Jezebel: always running Traxx
Scope Cleaver: small, enginnerred
Scope Cleaver: efficient, portable, etc
Ferren Xia: time to get back to work
Simon Jezebel: hahaha JEsz

jesz Murakami: serious simon
Simon Jezebel: I know I know
jesz Murakami: lol
Simon Jezebel: lol
You: rat tail experiments?
Scope Cleaver: lol no clue
Scope Cleaver: we have to premedidate this
Scope Cleaver: carefully
Simon Jezebel: yes

Simon Jezebel: data collection will be the most difficult
jesz Murakami: cut off lots of generations of rat tails --they keep coming back
Bob Bunderfeld is offline
Simon Jezebel: but NOT shorter is the point
You: ah I get it
Simon Jezebel: same guy who said Giraffes stretching for leaves made their necks long
jesz Murakami: so no inherit aquired characteristis
Simon Jezebel: genetically
Simon Jezebel:

Scope Cleaver: Lets explore the set of ideas that has information about they _way_ they spread
You: yet
jesz Murakami: why bmolest rats when u have millenia of molested boy babies cirmcisions
Simon Jezebel: good point Jesz
Simon Jezebel: rat tails indeed...lol
Scope Cleaver: I have an idea
You: what's your idea, Scope?
Scope Cleaver: How about the seed being an idea we could express in multiple modalities
Simon Jezebel: but text recording Scope, very difficult
You: multiple ways it could propagate
Scope Cleaver: so we can analyse how it spread thru different modalities
jesz Murakami: memetically acquired characteristic pheno grounde should be genetically enabled
Simon Jezebel: very shady legally

Scope Cleaver: For instance thru sound, visual, gestures, object, text
Simon Jezebel: oh I see, expanded definition
neand Fleming: seems to complicate the problem of analyzing results
Dagny Hemingway: textures with UUID's?
Scope Cleaver: 1 idea expressed thru multiple modalities
Simon Jezebel: textures is a very good suggestion Dag
Simon Jezebel: immediately visable
You: It could compensate for bias in a single modality?
Simon Jezebel: ? Traxx
jesz Murakami: the real experiment can be a construction project of 'real memes'
You: I like that
You: you mean a project in RL
jesz Murakami: thought u would
You: heh
jesz Murakami: yes

Scope Cleaver: we have to readjust the data to fit the % of people with disabilities
neand Fleming: i like the concept, but when does tracking the results become overwhelming
Simon Jezebel: right now
Scope Cleaver: or those for that matter with different graphic settings
You: we'd want to automate tracking right from the start
Scope Cleaver: yea
Simon Jezebel: LL again
jesz Murakami: for me its when we have first functioning societal cell
Simon Jezebel: we need access at the root level
You: well they won't give us that!
Scope Cleaver: Thats what I said above
Scope Cleaver: they could maybe anonymise some data, I don't know
Simon Jezebel: this is beginning to touch on the conversation we had about 150 peer group Traxx
You: how so?
Simon Jezebel: well, societal groups as memes themselves
You: aren't those meme complexes?
Simon Jezebel: perhaps a place to start would be to analyze the formation of groups
You: or am I reading the wrong thing?
Simon Jezebel: well a cell is only as small as your scope will resolve

Simon Jezebel: A person is a complex
Simon Jezebel: a word can be a complex
You: personally I take an axiom as my basic unit
Simon Jezebel: even a letter
Simon Jezebel: it all depends on your focua
You: with an axiom as a basic unit you don't worry about scale
jesz Murakami: make our own roots
You: sounds good
Simon Jezebel: I guess my point is that we have easy access to group names and formation
Simon Jezebel: it would be a place to start
You: that's a good point
Scope Cleaver: How would we go about tracking it and extracting data out of it in a meaningfull way so we can plot it?
You: viability of group
You: there are several metrics
Simon Jezebel: well logging it would be enough, we can worry about pattern analysis when we have the data
You: land, membership, duration
Simon Jezebel: yes yes Traxx!!
Dagny Hemingway: You can't easily track text, but money...UUID's...
jesz Murakami: bak --hamlet answr invite harmony harbinger the usc point person in SL we can later time
Dagny Hemingway: and text in print - from the media & forums
Simon Jezebel: when later? Jesz
You: sounds good, jesz
neand Fleming: emotionally, I would hate to see money as a metric. but not analytically
Simon Jezebel: we should pre-invite them to this groups next discussion
You: I like that
Scope Cleaver: is there any good pattern recognition software we could have acess to, to help us parse the data?
Simon Jezebel: I agree, but LL has given us that parameter so we live with it
Simon Jezebel: hmmm, all that stuff is expensive Scope
You: Let's plan on next meeting a week from now
Simon Jezebel: I've used some, but through my university
You: I'll post this transcript in Thinkers forum, but excise comments from those who were not present when I asked for permission.