Transcript of Kohlberg's Six Stages of Moral Development (June 29, 2006), 1/4

Background reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

[14:56] 314 Poindexter: is this the immoral discussion group?
[14:56] Linus Podolsky: flaappy that our wings
[14:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah hello 314,
[14:56] 314 Poindexter: hello
[14:56] Crow: CAW!
[14:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hopefully it's not immoral, lol
[14:56] Extropia DaSilva: We are the discussion group. But we are not immoral.
[14:56] 314 Poindexter is somewhat disappointed
[14:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry to disappoint you :)
[14:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Immature yes, immoral, not really ;)
[14:56] 314 Poindexter: ahh well that works
[14:57] 314 Poindexter: good enough for me
[14:57] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[14:57] Extropia DaSilva: ...Although on weekends we do practice wild orgies and debauchary..
[14:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, great! in that case, you're most welcome!
[14:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Scope!
[14:57] 314 Poindexter: oh good
[14:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welcome Miko
[14:57] Scope Cleaver: Greetings Extropia <3, Greetings Swyneth
[14:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi there Linus
[14:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
[14:57] Scope Cleaver: Gwyneth rather sorry.
[14:57] 314 Poindexter: you have to explore the full width of the moral spectrum to really get to know it!
[14:57] Extropia DaSilva: Oh Hi scope.
[14:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 314: isn't that true for everything ;)
[14:57] 314 Poindexter: you can call me "pi" if it is easier
[14:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was wondering :D
[14:58] 314 Poindexter: or if you happen to have a greek keyboard...
[14:58] Leah Kivioq laughs
[14:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, sorry, no ....
[14:58] Crow: CAW!
[14:58] Leah Kivioq: O, Askii!
[14:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ?
[14:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait!
[14:58] 314 Poindexter: nice
[14:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have it!
[14:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ?, ?, ?
[14:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
[14:58] 314 Poindexter: the joys of character map
[14:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[14:58] 314 Poindexter: now if only SL could to right-to-left reading order
[14:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, the joys of the weird Apple keyboard!
[14:58] 314 Poindexter: hmmm
[14:59] 314 Poindexter: apparently my apple keyboard isn't weird enough
[14:59] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[14:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alt-P
[14:59] daniele Myriam: *Hopes she's not late*
[14:59] 314 Poindexter: hmm
[14:59] daniele Myriam: Hi everyone
[14:59] 314 Poindexter: I'd have to switch it over to the mac to make it do its magic...
[14:59] Extropia DaSilva: Hmmm..should I call you 'Pi' or 3.141592653589793285.....
[14:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Daniele, you're right on time — we haven't started yet!
[15:00] 314 Poindexter: ahh works over there
[15:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extropia: just call him ?
[15:00] 314 Poindexter: pi works better, its harder to intone my full name
[15:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[15:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, your FULL name takes a bit of time to intone! ;)
[15:00] Extropia DaSilva: I'll just poke him and shout 'oi you' when I want his attention ;)
[15:00] daniele Myriam looks around, and feels a bit underdressed...
[15:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or shout "pi you"
[15:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha daniele — no problem, this is Mature land,
[15:01] Leah Kivioq: þ is the best my keyboard can dew.
[15:01] Scope Cleaver: I like Stage 6
[15:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: although, as said, we're mostly immature ;)
[15:01] Linus Podolsky: I don't think anyone has intoned his full name yet ;)
[15:01] daniele Myriam: lol Just looking at everyone wearing suits...
[15:01] Linus Podolsky: though i think that's been worked on...
[15:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Linus: not enough time in the universe for that ;)
[15:01] Linus Podolsky: yup :)
[15:01] Extropia DaSilva: Who called me immature? I'm gonna SULK now!
[15:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway guys,
[15:01] 314 Poindexter: the trick is
[15:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to my right is a blackboard of sorts,
[15:01] 314 Poindexter: you take one second to intone the first digit of my name
[15:01] 314 Poindexter: 1/2 for the nex
[15:01] 314 Poindexter: 1/4 for the netx..
[15:01] 314 Poindexter: and so on
[15:01] 314 Poindexter: next
[15:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: you can touch it, and get a copy of a notecard and a link to wikipedia.
[15:02] Crow: CAW!
[15:02] 314 Poindexter: done in only two seconds!
[15:02] Extropia DaSilva: Hello Sorcs.
[15:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello Sorcs, welcome!
[15:02] Sorcs Nolan: hello :)
[15:02] Scope Cleaver: Wasn't Selaras coming?
[15:02] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: People willing to attend the Thinkers' meeting, the location is around 200,200,179, NE corner of the Marktplatz, up the stairs!
[15:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I hope she manages to come around,
[15:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: she's the expert here,
[15:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm just a wikipedia surfer!
[15:03] Scope Cleaver: Hehe.
[15:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello Gxeremio!
[15:03] Linus Podolsky: I love wikipedia...
[15:03] Crow: CAW CAW!
[15:03] Gxeremio Dimsum: Hello all. Saluton.
[15:03] Extropia DaSilva: Hail Cesar!
[15:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I love to read it, although I'm always out-censored on Wikipedia ;)
[15:03] 314 Poindexter: hey gx
[15:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway,
[15:04] Scope Cleaver: Selaras! :)
[15:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah Selaras! Nice of you to come :)
[15:04] Selaras Partridge: Hello!
[15:04] Scope Cleaver: Greetings :)
[15:04] Selaras Partridge: Sorry I'm late Gwyn (:
[15:04] Extropia DaSilva: ...but apart from roads and wine and public health and maintaining law and order...WHAT have the Romans done for US!?
[15:04] Selaras Partridge: hey everyone, please don't let me interrupt (:
[15:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, we barely started, Selaras!
[15:05] Gxeremio Dimsum: haha extropia
[15:05] Gxeremio Dimsum: look, if my costume is a distraction.... :)
[15:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was just going to say: for the benefit of the ones coming to our meetings for the first time, I'll briefly go through the rules...
[15:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Generally we all speak over each other, unless someone is on the soapbox.
[15:05] Extropia DaSilva: Oh no hon. I will be quiet on that subject now..won't even mention Biggus Dickus...
[15:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (soapbox is to my left, in front of the beer.... hehe)
[15:05] Crow: CAW CAW!
[15:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) If someone is on the soapbox please be quiet and listen to them, you will have a chance to respond to them later. IF they invite comment that is fine, but otherwise please be quiet.
[15:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) If you want to use the soapbox please touch it to get in the queue.
[15:06] Traxx Hathor: hi all : )
[15:06] 314 Poindexter: hey trax
[15:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 4) No ad hominem attacks. Feel free to tear apart ideas, but not the person sharing them. Err on the side of caution with tearing apart their ideas too, we should be able to cope, but not everyone can!
[15:06] Extropia DaSilva: Hi!
[15:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 5) If you want to join please ask a prefect, there are nearly always 2 or 3, sometimes more at a meeting.
[15:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 6) We have a group list on the SL forums website (/77/1.html). We use it for discussing some admin matters, like when is a good time to host etc. but it is primarily there for people to discuss topics that they
[15:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: want to post to the forum.
[15:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 7) If you want to run a meeting of your own, please chat to a prefect. Essentially you can either replace a regular meeting with the regular hosts agreement, or find a time of your own.
[15:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although not a rule Thinkers is currently roaming to different venues, so please check where the event calendar says we will be for each event...
[15:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Whew... I guess that's it!
[15:07] Extropia DaSilva: Hello Jesz!
[15:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For the ones just arrived, you may touch this blackboard to get a notecard and a wikipedia link...
[15:07] Crow: CAW CAW!
[15:08] Extropia DaSilva: You forgot rule 8...
[15:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Jesz, Ludo, and everybody else I've not said hi to yet!)
[15:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, rule 8: there is no rule 8?
[15:08] Traxx Hathor: : )
[15:08] Scope Cleaver: Greetings Traxx
[15:08] Extropia DaSilva: Rule 8 is..
[15:08] Traxx Hathor: the meta rule
[15:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually I wanted to ask you if you mind that I take a transcript?
[15:08] Traxx Hathor: heya Scope : )
[15:08] Ludo Merit: I don't.
[15:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some people can't be here today, and wanted to read about it later...
[15:08] Traxx Hathor: sounds fine
[15:08] Extropia DaSilva: There are two types of opinion. The WRONG one and MY one! THat's rule 8:)
[15:08] Linus Podolsky: yup
[15:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah Extropia :)
[15:09] Traxx Hathor: heh
[15:09] Ludo Merit: Sorry to bump into people.
[15:09] Traxx Hathor: that rule isn't meta enough
[15:09] Traxx Hathor: np Ludo
[15:09] Traxx Hathor: I feel like I took your seat
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And now the standard disclaimer: no, I don't know anything about Kohlberg, or philosophy, or whatever else you might think. I was just pointed out to this specific article,
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: from someone mentioning it how strange SL is, being at stage one,
[15:09] Traxx Hathor: no way
[15:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: when most of the world is already on stage 5.
[15:10] Traxx Hathor: disagree with that premise about SL
[15:10] Extropia DaSilva: I on the other hand know more than anyone about any subject, except Taxi drivers.
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: To recap: stage one, you refrain from doing things because you get punished for it (authoritarianism)
[15:10] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:10] daniele Myriam: Surely the Kolberg thingumies only apply to people, not societies in general. So in SL you'd expect to find people at all stages of development, no?
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stage two: self-interest. You do things to others because you expect something in return.
[15:10] Traxx Hathor: I thought it was for people too
[15:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes daniele — but societies are formed at the stage of the majority of the population ;) heh.
[15:11] Traxx Hathor: so the stage two person is an instrumental egoist
[15:11] Traxx Hathor: according to the article
[15:11] Extropia DaSilva: That's me!
[15:11] Gxeremio Dimsum: well daniele there can be prevailing characteristics
[15:11] 314 Poindexter: surethere seems to be a lot of stage 3 people in SL
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stage 3, golden rule: do unto others what you'd like others to do to you.
[15:11] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:11] 314 Poindexter: as well as 1
[15:11] 314 Poindexter: er 2
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stage 4: order is important, break the law, feel guilty about it — leads to fundamentalism
[15:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stage 5: the gretaest good for the greatest number of people; democracy
[15:11] Extropia DaSilva: Anyone hear speak 'crow'? I wanna know what that bird is saying in response to Gwyn..
[15:12] Scope Cleaver: Utilitaranism
[15:12] Traxx Hathor: a few bad apples at stage1and stage2 trying to get attention are not the majority of SLers
[15:12] Linus Podolsky: i think it's saying caw caw...
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stage 6: postulated, not found in reality (HAHA). Principled conscience, enlightenment, reasoning using universal ethical principles (which probably don't exist)
[15:12] Linus Podolsky: as in caws blimey govnor ;)
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Kohlberg tried to find anyone on stage 6, and never found one :) Heh.
[15:12] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So hmm,
[15:13] Traxx Hathor: well he'd have to find a universal moral principle first
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: While Traxx is right, it's hard to say "oh SL is only at stage 1"
[15:13] Scope Cleaver: I don't agree that there is enough evidence to show there are no universal ethical principles.
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: don't jump directly into stage 6,
[15:13] Gxeremio Dimsum: well traxx i think the issue is that there are few controls on those at low levels.
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we've just arrived at stage 1!
[15:13] Traxx Hathor: good -- let's fight about universal moral/ethical principles
[15:13] SL Exchange Magic Box white: SL Exchange - Delivered item Gothic Pants "Tripped Fly".
[15:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Traxx :D
[15:13] Ludo Merit: If I can bring divinity into the discussion, I can talk about universal principles.
[15:13] 314 Poindexter: I don't run into a lot of people who are afraid of being punished in SL
[15:13] Gxeremio Dimsum: the wikipedia article indicats that no one consistenly exhibited stage 6 behaviors, not that it didn't exist
[15:14] Extropia DaSilva: I'm stage 10. Posthumans tend to leap off the scales:)
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I would say that SL is broadly stage 1, with groups congregating at stage 2 pockets, and even more isolated pockets of the other stages 3-5
[15:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gxeremio: I stand corrected :)
[15:14] Traxx Hathor: I thought you were transhumanist
[15:14] Linus Podolsky: how can we ever know when we've arrived at stage 6 as we might be just saying that what we think are universal are simply that which is most widely accepted at the time... or what we think of as being "universal..."
[15:14] Extropia DaSilva: That was last week.
[15:14] Traxx Hathor: heh
[15:15] Sorcs Nolan: I think I have to agree with Gwyeth on the state of SL compared to these stages
[15:15] 314 Poindexter: it seems like a lot of people might confuse stage 6 with 4
[15:15] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, stage 5 is more reasonable: you don't postulate "universal" ethical principles, just about a large group of ethical principles that apply to a large majority of people...
[15:15] Linus Podolsky: yes
[15:15] Traxx Hathor: easier to see whether people are in compliance
[15:15] Ludo Merit: I seem to be running into the stage three and five pockets all over the place.
[15:15] Gxeremio Dimsum: well for a normal human, what precipitates their movement from one stage to the next. I'm thinking empathy, fear, and enlightened self-interest. the first 2 don't exist much in a virtual world.
[15:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: On stage 4, you comply with law and order because you find it's impossible to have a society without it,
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: not because the principles are important by themselves.
[15:16] jesz Murakami: dioes stage 7 include all 6
[15:16] Extropia DaSilva: Anyone know if each successive stage replaces the previous one, or builds on it?
[15:16] Traxx Hathor: replaces
[15:16] Leeza Everett: booo to stage 4 :)
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: At stage 4, the principles can be whatever someone sets them up. What is important is to *follow* them.
[15:16] Crow: CAW CAW!
[15:16] Traxx Hathor: It's like Piaget
[15:16] jesz Murakami: its like the chakras
[15:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes Extropia — Kohlberg postulated that each stage follows the next, on our personal moral development.
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You don't jump stages
[15:17] Traxx Hathor: or regress
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Traxx: Kohlberg was very influenced by Piaget.
[15:17] jesz Murakami: unleess an outlaw
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, jesz
[15:17] Ludo Merit: And why is stage five labeled 'democracy'?
[15:17] Extropia DaSilva: But why don't you regress?
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: an outlaw would be at stage 1, or 2 at most
[15:17] Traxx Hathor: just read that, Gwyn. I know next to nothing about it!
[15:17] Scope Cleaver thinks of a way to have a technological scale for moral development.
[15:17] Ludo Merit: jesz, I love you.
[15:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ludo: social contract: the majority of people agree on a majority of principles
[15:17] Traxx Hathor: How would you do that, Scope?
[15:18] 314 Poindexter: is it really valid to use the term universal here?
[15:18] jesz Murakami: an outlaw is outside the law not against it --level 7
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Traxx — neither do I, hehe, i just read this article 2 days ago!
[15:18] Extropia DaSilva: Make one up Scope. It will become known as Cleaver's Law...
[15:18] 314 Poindexter: it seems that this schema would preclude subcultures
[15:18] Ludo Merit: Yay jesz
[15:18] Traxx Hathor: But it has to be REALLY GOOD
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: jesz, on stage 1 you ndon't recognize ANY law.
[15:18] Traxx Hathor: : P
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're outside ALL laws on stage 1. Laws are for weenies :)
[15:18] Scope Cleaver: Cleaver's law: Moral development aligns with the progression of intelligence in the universe.
[15:18] Gxeremio Dimsum: perhaps it would be best if we examined hypothetical interactions between two people, rather than speaking in generalities
[15:18] Extropia DaSilva: I'm at stage 1 and I've had enough of your stupid rules, Gwyn!
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I'm not being correct
[15:18] Crow: CAW CAW!
[15:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and LOl Extropia!
[15:19] jesz Murakami: in 7 ur not ruled by any law --but do recognize them
[15:19] Traxx Hathor: Scope, counterexample -- very intelligent entities motivated by cruelty
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, on stage 6, "laws" are unnecessary ;)
[15:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the sense that you know what you have to do, all the time...
[15:19] Extropia DaSilva: I'm at stage 7 and I don't live by your rules but I recognise them, nonetheless, Gwyn!
[15:19] Scope Cleaver: INtelligent entities motivated by cruelty pales in intelligence compared to a non cruel universe...
[15:19] Linus Podolsky: as it's a part of your conscience...
[15:20] Linus Podolsky: law's written on the heart...
[15:20] Tracer Ping: my 2 cents would be with no form of physical harm your outlook towards a society such as a digital one is gonna put you on a I don't givce a shit level at times
[15:20] Traxx Hathor: but the universe is neither cruel nor caring
[15:20] jesz Murakami: traxx u mena like shrub and crownies
[15:20] Ludo Merit: Linus, one of my fave phrases
[15:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, good starting point, Tracer.
[15:20] Gxeremio Dimsum: i propose discussion of the following scenarios: typical griefer attack, selling something you got for free, banning someone who annoys you, and forcing people to speak one language.
[15:20] Linus Podolsky: :)
[15:20] Extropia DaSilva: We should fix that.
[15:20] Selaras Partridge: Hmm, is there a stage 0? I'm not even sure we have that many SLers at Stage 1 since the potential "punishment" doesn't seem to stop anyone (:
[15:21] Tracer Ping: electric shock collars must be worn at all times by SL'ers
[15:21] Linus Podolsky: i like it too
[15:21] Sorcs Nolan: funny cause it's true, Sel :)
[15:21] Traxx Hathor: banning is a response to griefing or some such, but I agree with the rest
[15:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would also ask you, if we live in a mostly stage 5 society (well most of us anyway), do you think that we "fall back" to stage 1 societies like SL as a form of escape?
[15:21] Leeza Everett: who's forcing someone to speak one language?
[15:21] Extropia DaSilva: We can't ban annoying people! I would be kicked out within 5 miniutes!
[15:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[15:21] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:21] Scope Cleaver: lol
[15:21] Traxx Hathor: Gwyn, why would we want to do that?
[15:21] Traxx Hathor: what's the payoff?
[15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have no answer, Traxx :)
[15:22] Ludo Merit: Is SL a stage 1. I don't agree. The crime rate is lower here than in FL\
[15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just have questions ;)
[15:22] Scope Cleaver: Should we bring game theory in the picture?
[15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, Ludo — stage is not about "crime"
[15:22] Gxeremio Dimsum: leeza: the language question is one to consider responses at the various levels to language barriers.

[15:22] Extropia DaSilva: Stage 6 is unlikely to be reached by a type 0 civilization, huh?
[15:22] 314 Poindexter: do the stages of moral development apply to individuals, or groups?
[15:22] Traxx Hathor: good plan -- game away!
[15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, *all* of us went through stage 1 once when we were children!
[15:22] Leeza Everett: i think we all change stages..it probably depends on how important the issue is to them/us
[15:22] Crow: CAW CAW!
[15:22] Scope Cleaver: I agree with Extropia.
[15:22] Scope Cleaver: Stage 0 heh
[15:22] Ludo Merit: Thanks, Linus
[15:22] Scope Cleaver: We suck hardcore.
[15:22] Linus Podolsky: that's ok :)
[15:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We only viewed what was important for *us*, but recognized an authority which would scold us if we did something wrong (our parents ;) )
[15:22] Traxx Hathor: heh
[15:22] Waya Sion: maybe it's not nessicarally sl as a whole that's at stage 1, but the few individuals who cause the problems who are, and resorting to basic punishment like stage 1 is the only way most on-line communities (even other than sl) can deal with them?
[15:23] Extropia DaSilva: I agree with Scope that its good to agree with Extropia..
[15:23] Tracer Ping: If you have RL dollars invested in SL your probably more than a stage 2 or 3 I'd assume
[15:23] Tracer Ping: money or pain big factors for behaviors
[15:23] daniele Myriam: I'm with Waya...
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me try to rephrase things, Waya. I think that SL is stage 1 because nobody respects any authority but LL's, and people do pretty much what they want, without caring for others ;)
[15:23] Traxx Hathor: Tracer I know two stage2 people with financial investment in SL
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: many move towards stage 2, though
[15:23] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Groups, working together
[15:23] daniele Myriam: It seems to me that people in SL tend to act mostly like they do in RL, except of course in a virtual environment... (of course I havnt empircally verified that.. dont know too many SL people in RL lol)
[15:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: People forming SL companies
[15:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All those are clearly stage 2.
[15:24] Waya Sion: thats true, though there are those who go out of their way for others
[15:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And this is growing in number.
[15:24] Scope Cleaver: I think that SL can be partioned in such a way that any of those stage exist.
[15:24] Extropia DaSilva: So what would it indicate to have a world where people largely work for the love of what they do, as opposed to monetary reasons?
[15:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course there are, Way! An example: the SL volunteers, Live helpers, Selaras Partridge... :)
[15:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All are at least stage 3.
[15:24] Crow: CAW!
[15:24] Traxx Hathor: Good point about the creativity
[15:25] Selaras Partridge: From discussions I've had with various people, I'd say there are also some Slers who may be frustrated with the Stage 5 development in RL and are striving for Stage 6 in SL...
[15:25] 314 Poindexter: agreed, scope
[15:25] Ludo Merit: I think, extropia, that we're closer to the love of the work here than we can be in fl
[15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Examples of stage 4 also exist. Gorean communities, for instance, are a very good example.
[15:25] Ludo Merit: Fewer practical considerations.
[15:25] jesz Murakami: real example is cells in your FL body
[15:25] Tracer Ping: what is stage 6 a monk?
[15:25] jesz Murakami: certainly not ur FL socirties
[15:25] Gxeremio Dimsum: a good number of people, yes, selaras
[15:25] Scope Cleaver: Whats stopping someone from having a sim in which not only stage 1 is enforced?
[15:25] Traxx Hathor: The original article seems overly conformist, and doesn't allow for creative extensions
[15:25] Ludo Merit: Selaras, youu got me
[15:25] Linus Podolsky: Tracer not necessarilly a monk...
[15:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tracer: your guess is as good as Kohlberg's!
[15:25] Sorcs Nolan: trying to achive the ideal of #6 would be frustrating anywhere, RL or SL
[15:26] Extropia DaSilva: Yeah I agree. But in most cases one must work in FL for money in order to indulge ones passion in SL. My poor primary works her butt off so's I can have such a lovely life.
[15:26] Linus Podolsky: Monks can be at various stages i think...
[15:26] Tracer Ping: GW Bush must be a stage 6
[15:26] Extropia DaSilva: So if you are stage 6...are you as one with Buddha?
[15:26] Scope Cleaver: What stage is it when consiousness starts to merge?
[15:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Scope: you're currently at the only stage 5 sim in SL ;) One out of 2866 ;) )
[15:27] jesz Murakami: no past 7
[15:27] Crow: CAW!
[15:27] Traxx Hathor: It forks at 7 : P
[15:27] Gxeremio Dimsum: this discussion itself is a good example of the question. under what guidelines are people deciding what to respond to? a leader, their own needs, what's best for all, what's most important?
[15:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Linus, i'd say, any monk would start with the stage they are currently in (depending on a personal level) and try to move towards stage 6.
[15:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but that doesn't apply to monks only!
[15:27] Linus Podolsky: indeed :)
[15:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Gxeremio :)
[15:27] daniele Myriam: Gwyn: you said people predominantly act in their own interst in SL but I disagree: I think most people respect other people's ideas and opinions and fear being shunned or going against the mold. So this is a hugely motivating factor otherwise you'd see
[15:28] daniele Myriam: everyone -- or most people -- in SL act like your average sociopath. Some do, its true, yet most dont. On this basis, I disagree that SL is mostly in the early stages. :-)
[15:28] daniele Myriam: Sorry took a long time to type lol
[15:28] Ludo Merit: I think we're getting a bit mystical about stage 6, and mystical is confusing.
[15:28] jesz Murakami: whats the level of scientific studies as tho truth
[15:28] Extropia DaSilva: I am so morally developed that 99% of what I say unfortunately sounds like corny jokes and flippant remarks to less enlightened ears.
[15:28] Gxeremio Dimsum: There's very little order here, and seemingly little agreement on what kind of order there should be.
[15:28] jesz Murakami: yes!
[15:28] Crow: CAW!
[15:28] Extropia DaSilva: No!
[15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: daniele, I don't think that stage 1 is "wrong" or anything like that — I hope I don't gave you guys the wrong impression.
[15:28] Traxx Hathor: but we're having fun
[15:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stage 1 *does* have morality!
[15:28] Traxx Hathor: bleh
[15:28] Tracer Ping: total anarchy
[15:28] Tracer Ping: except you can't punish your neighbors
[15:29] jesz Murakami: fun is 1 or 2
[15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gxeremio: how true.
[15:29] Ludo Merit: Maybe I should take the soapbox.
[15:29] daniele Myriam: No no, not at all. I just disagree that most people in SL act in their own self-interest... my experience is that people act mostly as they do in RL except for the occaisional -- or prolific -- griefers
[15:29] The Soapbox: Reseting script
[15:29] Scope Cleaver: Is there a TypeIII civilisation in SL Extropia?
[15:29] Scope Cleaver: :P
[15:29] jesz Murakami: the more morality the lower thestage number
[15:29] Extropia DaSilva: No of course not.
[15:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok Ludo — let's have you on the soapbox for a while, just sit on it!
[15:29] Traxx Hathor: just click on it
[15:29] Tracer Ping: Linden owned land would be a type 3 land right?
[15:29] The Soapbox: Ludo Merit is on the soapbox now!
[15:29] Extropia DaSilva: No
[15:29] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:29] Scope Cleaver: lets make one with the multiple suns at the center.
[15:29] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:30] Leeza Everett: no
[15:30] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:30] Ludo Merit: I want to say something about stage six then I'll get off and let you throw tomatoes.
[15:30] The Soapbox: You've been added to the list
[15:30] Crow: CAW!
[15:30] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:31] Ludo Merit: Each of the stages is talking at least some about what is enforced. What the norms and sanctions of the society are.
[15:31] Ludo Merit: I think in a stage six society everybody knows better than to enforce anything.
[15:32] Ludo Merit: We are too different to all fit in to any set of rules.
[15:33] Crow: CAW!
[15:33] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:33] Ludo Merit: Maybe stage six is the postulated SF society - Rule one: Don't annoy other people. Rule 2: If you're the other people, don't be annoyed too easily.
[15:33] 314 Poindexter gave you Ethics.
[15:33] Ludo Merit: The SF story pointed out that humans would go to court over whether A was annoying or B was too easily annoyed.
[15:34] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:34] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:34] Extropia DaSilva: um..what does SF stand for?
[15:34] Ludo Merit: So it doesn't work for humans, the story said.
[15:34] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:34] Ludo Merit: Science fiction.
[15:34] Extropia DaSilva: ok
[15:34] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:34] Ludo Merit: I think maybe heaven is stage 6.
[15:34] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[15:34] Linus Podolsky: Yes
[15:34] daniele Myriam resists the urge to giggle maniaclly at a soapbox shushing a crow...
[15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks!
[15:34] Leeza Everett: nice LUdo thx
[15:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe daniele :)
[15:34] Czar Nicholas: lol
[15:35] The Soapbox: It is Gwyneth Llewelyn's turn to speak, please take the floor
[15:35] Linus Podolsky: hehe was funny how the soapmox shhh Leah's crow :)
[15:35] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll use the soapbox just for a standard disclaimer...
[15:35] The Soapbox: Gwyneth Llewelyn is on the soapbox now!
[15:35] Extropia DaSilva: Stage 6 sounds closer to the Buddhist notion of Nirvana than Heaven IMO
[15:35] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, first, before you all think that Kohlberg was a lunatic,
[15:35] Gxeremio Dimsum: ne dankine, eldalin.
[15:35] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:35] Eldalin Uram: saluton / hallo :)
[15:35] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: he applied his thesis to human beings individually.
[15:36] The Soapbox: Waya Sion has just requested a turn on the soapbox.
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The crazy correlation I was trying to aim for — having a majority of people in a society in a specific stage,
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: modelling the society,
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: might be completely unacademic and simply not apply.
[15:36] Gxeremio Dimsum: "leave others alone and don't be thin-skinned" doesn't sound like looking out for what's best. i picture stage 6 as a kind of universal democracy...what's best for most people EVERYWHERE?
[15:36] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Still, I think it *does* apply to SL :) And thus the challenge today: does it make any sense to classify types of societies,
[15:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: according their "stage of development" in morals,
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or is this all about individuals anyway, and no such thing can apply?
[15:37] Tracer Ping: /\/\
[15:37] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, don't fret too much about stage 6. Kohlberg himself has thought that he should drop that from his thesis :)
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We'll stick with stages 1-5 which are indeed verifiable on individual human beings.
[15:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you :)
[15:37] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[15:37] Scope Cleaver: I don't think it does make sense unless you have a metric.
[15:37] Traxx Hathor: If a society has a codified set of rules then we can classify that society, otherwise it's best to look at individual behavior.
[15:37] daniele Myriam: If you did that -- graphed the majority of people in a society -- I wonder if it wouldnt turn out to be a simple bell curve, both in SL and RL...
[15:37] The Soapbox: 314 Poindexter has just requested a turn on the soapbox.
[15:37] No room to sit here, try another spot.
[15:37] Leeza Everett: I think stage 6 is: what would u do/how would u feel if in a situation
[15:37] Extropia DaSilva: People would be an outmoded concept by stage 6 since the metabrain would have embraced all in a collective conscience making the global web/population synthesis one animal to all intents and purposes.
[15:37] daniele Myriam: This sounds like an interesting survey lol
[15:38] Crow: CAW!
[15:38] The Soapbox: It is Waya Sion's turn to speak, please take the floor
[15:38] The Soapbox: Waya Sion is on the soapbox now!
[15:38] Scope Cleaver: *nods to Extropia* lol
[15:38] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:38] Ludo Merit: Disagree with Ex
[15:38] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:38] Waya Sion: this may be my first day here but I have just had some interesting thoughts about this thesis both for here in SL and real life
[15:38] Waya Sion: maybe it's not a question as for how it's done with society as a whole, or sl as a whole
[15:39] Waya Sion: even at a society level, if you move up high enough it could be viewed as stage 1. You have people in office who write laws, and say "follow these or go to jail" or "pay a fine"
[15:39] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:39] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:39] Gxeremio Dimsum: sorry all i've got to go. and soapbox...shhh!
[15:39] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:40] Extropia DaSilva: (that crow has more opinions than any one..)
[15:40] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:40] Waya Sion: then as you break down society and go into some of the various minorities, cultures, and sub-cultures, it gets refined and therefore how we interact with on eanother is at a higher stage
[15:40] SL Boutique Central: You have sold "Pack of Cigarettes" to Nathan Hutton.
[15:40] Waya Sion: like for example, view just religion. all of religion will acknolege one another, and general christion faiths will obide by general christion rules
[15:41] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:41] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:41] Waya Sion: but you need to go deeper to a branch of any group to steup up. when your in say "prodistons" or whatnot, more is in common so your no longer looking at the same basic rules
[15:42] Waya Sion: with that in mind, maybe SL seems more as a stage-1 cause it's much smaller than the rl world, each minority group on here is smaller: in the hundreds at most instead of the millions
[15:42] Extropia DaSilva: prodistons? Is that similar to protestant?
[15:42] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:42] Waya Sion: and if you go into say a prision system, that's still considered part of society, but depending on the prison it could be viewed as stage 1 to stage 2 overall
[15:43] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Waya!
[15:43] Waya Sion: yw
[15:43] Extropia DaSilva: Good stuff..
[15:43] Leeza Everett: yes
[15:43] Crow: CAW!
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the way I read your words, SL is simply too small to see a "majority" at a single stage?
[15:43] Czar Nicholas: nods
[15:43] Traxx Hathor: Waya, I have to disagree with one point -- that a minority group or subculture in SL necessarily operates at a higher stage
[15:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's just too many split groups?
[15:44] Waya Sion: exactly. no, doesn't nessicarally operate at a higher stage, but has more in common for standards to have the opportunity to do such
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But hmm... there is a binding force here... all recognise LL's authority. or else!
[15:44] daniele Myriam: But how often do they excercise that authority?
[15:44] Czar Nicholas: lol
[15:44] Waya Sion: too many groups and diversity to have it all as just stage 4 or 5
[15:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: daniele: only when needed ;)
[15:44] daniele Myriam: Hehe
[15:44] Leeza Everett: yes..sounds like stage 1 or 2 with the almighty linden :)
[15:44] Crow: CAW!
[15:44] Ludo Merit: Agree Waya
[15:44] Waya Sion: LL's is like our rl law enforcement
[15:45] Waya Sion: some go about rl with little to no reguards to law enforement
[15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. That is something more intersting even, Waya. So, hmm, when you reach a stage 4 or 5 type of society, everybody has to sort of "think in the same way"?
[15:45] Extropia DaSilva: Yeah but how many read the terms and conditions and how many just click AGREE? The Linden gods have more than 10 commandments but we don't know how many 'cause nobody is arsed to read em!
[15:45] Tracer Ping: untill it' scosts money then they appreciate the law
[15:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I read them all, Extropia. Twice over, when they change!)
[15:45] Ludo Merit: THat's what I was objecting to, Gwyn, the idea that going up means more rules.
[15:45] Waya Sion: think and see things more closely to one another, therefore don't have to be bothered with the laws to the same degree
[15:46] Traxx Hathor: agree with Ludo
[15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh no, Ludo — I got your point, stage 6, for instance, does not need rules at all!
[15:46] Crow: CAW!
[15:46] Extropia DaSilva: You must be the Moses of Sl..
[15:46] Ludo Merit: That's better wayo
[15:46] Tracer Ping: nerd reference stage six would be like star treks federation or maybe 5
[15:46] jesz Murakami: yes ludo --self responsibility --less rules --til none
[15:46] Extropia DaSilva: So is stage 6 indistinguishable from stage 0?
[15:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Star Trek federation is clearly 5,
[15:46] Waya Sion: there's just as many rules in the book, but your getting to a group where everyone in it has basically the same living standards, expectations, so they don't have to constantly be reminded or review the laws
[15:47] Topher Hooper: I hope u don't mind me asking but what are the stages? sorry I came late.
[15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since they are democratic ;)
[15:47] Tracer Ping: ah yeah the president
[15:47] Extropia DaSilva: It's on the board hon.
[15:47] Crow: CAW!
[15:47] Leeza Everett: stage 6 is highter than stge ) :)
[15:47] Leeza Everett: 0
[15:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Topher: look at the blackboard, and click on it to get a notecard and a web link to wikipedia!
[15:47] The Soapbox: It is 314 Poindexter's turn to speak, please take the floor
[15:47] Ludo Merit: Ex, I'ld like to answer that stage 6/0 question.
[15:47] Extropia DaSilva: But stage 0 has nor rules and nor does stage 6.
[15:47] The Soapbox: 314 Poindexter is on the soapbox now!
[15:47] Leeza Everett: oh..i did not see that lol
[15:47] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:48] jesz Murakami: democracy low stage --mob rule
[15:48] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:48] 314 Poindexter: this is the first time I've encountered Kohlberg's stages, and I find them very interesting
[15:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees hehe...
[15:48] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:48] The Soapbox: 314 Poindexter is on the soapbox now, please hush!
[15:48] 314 Poindexter: but it seems that the factors that form RL society are different from those that form SL society
[15:49] Alex Lollipop: I think the factor that this is an online world plays a huge part - many people are more likely to be egocentric and impulsive online than in a real world -
[15:49] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:49] 314 Poindexter: specifically, people don't choose to exist in RL, they are born into it
[15:49] 314 Poindexter: you do what you can
[15:49] 314 Poindexter: and have greater pressures, both negative and positive
[15:49] Scope Cleaver: Yea I agree.
[15:49] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:49] 314 Poindexter: and I think for most of the world, RL pressure is more negative than positive
[15:49] 314 Poindexter: while in SL
[15:49] Cigarette: Commands are: '/52043 light', '/52043 inhale', '/52043 extinguish'
[15:49] Extropia DaSilva: I was born in sl. My primary is the one in RL..
[15:49] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:49] 314 Poindexter: you have to make an effort to have fun or unpleasant experiences
[15:50] Tracer Ping: visit a sandbox lately?
[15:50] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:50] Crow: CAW!
[15:50] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:50] 314 Poindexter: all tha time
[15:50] 314 Poindexter: but there seems to be an assymmetry between pleasure/pain in SL and RL
[15:50] 314 Poindexter: RL is more balanced to pain
[15:50] 314 Poindexter: and SL more balanced to pleasure
[15:50] daniele Myriam nods... "So true..."
[15:50] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:50] 314 Poindexter: and in that sense, Kohlberg's schema may be very useful
[15:50] 314 Poindexter: but some of the reasoning may be flawed for SL
[15:51] 314 Poindexter: specifically the punishment aspects
[15:51] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[15:51] Topher Hooper: agree
[15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ?, that was amazingly interesting!

[15:51] Extropia DaSilva: Yeah.
[15:51] Leeza Everett: yes thx
[15:51] daniele Myriam: Yah
[15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks :)
[15:51] Crow: CAW!
[15:51] 314 Poindexter: np
[15:51] Ludo Merit: SL is a playground.
[15:51] daniele Myriam: But I think fear of critisism from peers is still a valid "punishment" in SL
[15:51] 314 Poindexter: do I stand here for comments, or should I get off for the next person?
[15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was the best description of SL I have ever read, Ludo :)
[15:51] Ludo Merit: It is real. It is a part of FL.
[15:51] Traxx Hathor: jump up and down
[15:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe ? ... get off please ;)
[15:51] Extropia DaSilva: Gerroff! Lol!
[15:52] The Soapbox: Extropia DaSilva is on the soapbox now!
[15:52] Extropia DaSilva: Um..righty..
[15:52] Tracer Ping: For SL to become a higher stage it would have to do away with $L
[15:52] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:52] The Soapbox: List is Gwyneth Llewelyn, Waya Sion, 314 Poindexter. We are currently at position 4
[15:52] Extropia DaSilva: Well this is more a comment about personal morality..
[15:52] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:53] Ludo Merit: Good
[15:53] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:53] Crow: CAW CAW!
[15:53] Extropia DaSilva: I like to think of myself as a good person..
[15:53] Extropia DaSilva: But when I am in Grand Theft Auto I act like an utter psychopath...
[15:53] Traxx Hathor: heh
[15:53] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:53] Crow: CAW CAW!
[15:53] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:54] Extropia DaSilva: Which begs the question...am I only a good person because that's what rules force me to be?
[15:54] Tracer Ping: yeah
[15:54] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:54] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:54] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:54] Extropia DaSilva: In a society with no rules, do I become this psychopath who cares nothing for other people's lives?
[15:55] Extropia DaSilva: I do find it interesting that videogames can hold a mirror up to these supressed personalities.
[15:55] Ludo Merit: (no)
[15:55] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:55] Czar Nicholas: :)
[15:55] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:55] Traxx Hathor: GTA is a form of entertainment with a specific backstory, and specific roles to play
[15:55] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:55] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:55] 314 Poindexter: also, one of the GTA rules is that you kill for money
[15:56] Tracer Ping: and hot coffee yeeahh
[15:56] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:56] Crow: CAW CAW!
[15:56] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:56] Extropia DaSilva: Um...sorry, not quite on topic...but if freedom from rules makes as behave like anarchics would the rule-less stage 6 not revert back to 1 and so form a neverending circle? Um...thanks.
[15:56] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[15:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: While I personally tend to agree that there is supposed to be no difference between RL and SL, I must also admit that the facts in SL tend to indicate the opposite :)
[15:56] 314 Poindexter: good comments extropia
[15:56] Ludo Merit: Next up please
[15:57] The Soapbox: It is 's turn to speak, please take the floor
[15:57] Tracer Ping: nah at stage six they dont' have money
[15:57] The Soapbox: Ludo Merit is on the soapbox now!
[15:57] The Soapbox: It is 's turn to speak, please take the floor
[15:57] Traxx Hathor: self selected populatoin
[15:57] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:57] jesz Murakami: yes extro like zen mtns
[15:57] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:57] daniele Myriam: It seems to me you can judge your own behaviour. There are plenty of rule-less situations you find yourself in... how do you act in them? For example if you see a fiver on the floor, do you pick it up or look for its owner...
[15:57] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:57] Leeza Everett: thx Extropia..a true thinkers question:)
[15:57] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:57] daniele Myriam: (SOrry!)
[15:57] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:57] ZHAO: New sitting animation: sit-crossed-05
[15:57] ZHAO: New sitting animation: !_sitting_final
[15:57] Ludo Merit: I have an exampleof the difference between stage 1 and stage six.
[15:58] Crow: CAW!
[15:58] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:58] Ludo Merit: Stage one: What's his name, the fellow who was a mystic and did a tarot etc. "Do as thou wilt, is the whole of the law.
[15:58] Ludo Merit: Very attractive.
[15:59] Ludo Merit: Saint Augustine, who was quite a rake in his younger days, stage six: Love God, and do as you please.
[15:59] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[15:59] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[15:59] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Working definition for "good": what benefits the community/society. "Evil" would be something that harms it. Living in a community with no rules doesn't make it "good" or "evil", just "without rules".
[15:59] Leeza Everett: thx Ludo
[15:59] daniele Myriam: Ludo: Aleister Crowley?
[15:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was thinking of Crowley as well... hehe
[16:00] Ludo Merit: Yep him. You can tell hou unimportant I think he is.
[16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, he had some points.... ;)
[16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just some very weird ones, LOL
[16:00] Traxx Hathor: : \ apparently a heroin addict
[16:00] 314 Poindexter: though you can certainly love god and be a psychopath
[16:00] daniele Myriam: Good points, Ludo, Gwyn
[16:00] 314 Poindexter: Take the vikings for example...
[16:00] Ludo Merit: Gwyneth, incompete definition of 'good'.
[16:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's a working definition, Ludo.
[16:00] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meaning: open to discussion :)
[16:01] Traxx Hathor: It doesn't cover the rights and responsibilities of the individual, just the group
[16:01] Extropia DaSilva: You probably think you are in a person to person relationship with God giving you direct orders if you are a psychopath.
[16:01] Waya Sion: gotta remember all those prison movies where there's alway's one person who keeps a bible in his hand in the movie
[16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 'good' is not only 'religious good'
[16:01] Linus Podolsky: Interesting discussion :), tis getting late here though... ;) so better be off, good night all :)
[16:01] 314 Poindexter: see u linus
[16:01] Extropia DaSilva: Oh goodnight.
[16:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Linus — thanks for being with us today!
[16:02] daniele Myriam: Goodnight Linus
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, I tend to read from what you are saying,
[16:02] Linus Podolsky: good night :)
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that "more rules" is not necessarily a good thing,
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so stage 3/4 (more rules) are not so good as, say, stage 1 or 6
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: where rules are not so important.
[16:02] Extropia DaSilva: I agree. One rule to rule em all and in the darkness bind em...
[16:02] 314 Poindexter: John Calvin's Geneva was certainly a stage 4 society
[16:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: On stage 1, there is just one entity/group/person enforcing them,
[16:03] Ludo Merit: Ex lol
[16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: on stage 6 you don' need them anyway.
[16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Extropia :D
[16:03] Crow: CAW!
[16:03] Leeza Everett: stage 1 is the "becase I said so" stage ..no questions asked
[16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Leeza.
[16:03] Traxx Hathor: As long as individuals are not clones you'll need some rules, just not the same type of enforcement
[16:03] jesz Murakami: all rules r breakable including this one
[16:03] Leeza Everett: stage 6 you may disagree on rules
[16:03] 314 Poindexter notes that everyone should be sure to zoom in on the Red Meat Cartoon
[16:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The rules are. In the Taoist sense.
[16:03] Ludo Merit: Agree Traxx
[16:04] Extropia DaSilva: I'm sorry but....why do people think 6 has no rules anyway? Is it not closer to the truth to say it has rules but they cannot be expressed in any human language?
[16:04] Ludo Merit: Agree jesz and leeza too
[16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Leeza — I would say, stage 6 is the most ambiguous one. Everybody agrees on all the rules at all the time, so there are not really 'rules'.
[16:04] Ludo Merit: maybe they don't agree.
[16:04] Scope Cleaver Smells Wittgenstein.
[16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "abstract reasoning based on universal ethical principles".
[16:04] Traxx Hathor: axiomatize the domain to which the rule applies, and express it in a formal language
[16:04] 314 Poindexter: tautologically, a pure anarchist society would be stage 6
[16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Scope ;)
[16:04] Crow: CAW!
[16:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well,
[16:05] 314 Poindexter: with no rules, everyone would implicitly know and agree upon them
[16:05] jesz Murakami: do they agrre or just agree not to disagree
[16:05] Extropia DaSilva: imagine this butterfly exactly as it is but ugly not beautiful...
[16:05] daniele Myriam: I think in Stage 6 we're talking more a culture than a rulset, then
[16:05] Ludo Merit: jesz good
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that stage 6 is about utopia really.
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And should be really labeled trans-5
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, I guess that Kohlberg, working in the middle of the 20th century,
[16:05] jesz Murakami: no that must be the unattainable --7
[16:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: would be certainly influenced about democratic views,
[16:05] Traxx Hathor: the idea of a singular utopia sounds dull -- forking would be more interesting
[16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and would have a problem in imagining what comes next,
[16:06] Leeza Everett: yes i agree. It is the what would u do if in situation stage
[16:06] Extropia DaSilva: Utopia is not achievable in any planet where evolution shapes existence. Best you can hope for is a dynamic 'extropia' (yes, the name does mean something..)
[16:06] Crow: CAW!
[16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: while at the same time perfectly understanding that democratic views do not encompass the *whole* people — just a large majorityu!
[16:06] jesz Murakami: well we have lotsa forking in SL
[16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (heh Extropia ;) )
[16:06] Traxx Hathor: yup
[16:06] Ludo Merit: Yea Gwyn
[16:06] Leeza Everett: looks at everyone situation in stage 6..not just one/two groups but all
[16:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
[16:07] Extropia DaSilva: It's no joke. It is the 1st thing one must learn as a futurist. We will never have a perfect world.
[16:07] jesz Murakami: why dynamic rathern ecstatic
[16:07] Ludo Merit: EX, not if run by humans.
[16:07] Waya Sion: I think a true utopia would have to be forked to contain more than one environment to fit differant individual's idea of what utopia is
[16:07] Scope Cleaver: Imagine this imperfect butterfly just as it is,,, but perfect.
[16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, since we humans are not perfect ;)
[16:07] Scope Cleaver: *winks*
[16:07] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I used "we" in the broadest sense ;)
[16:08] Traxx Hathor: forked and evolving, and let's allow a merge op too : )
[16:08] You have offered friendship to Hevelina Xu.
[16:08] Hevelina Xu: *bow to all*
[16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello Hevelina :)
[16:08] Crow: CAW CAW!
[16:08] Extropia DaSilva: It would fork so much that every person would have a world to themselves. And what social animal wants that? Be careful what ya wish for:)
[16:08] Waya Sion: forked but free roaming into all the differant utopia's :)
[16:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway,
[16:09] Traxx Hathor: well how bout overlapping sets of rules?
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since I really think that SL is way fixed and tied to stage 1,
[16:09] The Soapbox: Hevelina Xu is on the soapbox now!
[16:09] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it'll be a loooooong way until we get to experiment with stage 6 here ;)
[16:09] Extropia DaSilva: One person's utopia is another person's dystopia...so we are back to my dynamic extropia:)
[16:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably in 2100, when we'll get Havok 2 working :)
[16:09] Ludo Merit: Disagree gwyn
[16:09] Traxx Hathor: physics for the greater good!
[16:10] 314 Poindexter: I have a really hard time seeing much of SL in stage 1
[16:10] 314 Poindexter: but really more 2-3
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You think you can achieve faster stages in SL, Ludo?
[16:10] 314 Poindexter: maybe stage 2
[16:10] daniele Myriam agrees with 314..
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh ? — you have been living in the better neighbourhoods then!
[16:10] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[16:10] Ludo Merit: We're still talking about groups when K was talking a bout people.
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, true, Ludo.
[16:10] 314 Poindexter: I travel a lot
[16:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should have rephrased that:
[16:10] Ludo Merit: I travel 2
[16:11] 314 Poindexter: sure there are unleasant people
[16:11] 314 Poindexter: but they seem to get booted quickly
[16:11] Extropia DaSilva: The civilization that is at stage 6 run a simulation of all the other lower stages which makes OUR RL THEIR SL! OO....
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "since SL is mostly inhabited by Stage 1 individuals, it'll be a long way until we see stage 6 individuals around" :)
[16:11] Crow: CAW CAW!
[16:11] Ludo Merit: EXT that's close!
[16:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ? — there are always more ready to come in.
[16:11] jesz Murakami: yes ex!
[16:11] Ludo Merit: We're stage 1. I sdon'rt rthink sao
[16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, you can postulate that we will run out of Stage 1 individuals in the future...
[16:12] Traxx Hathor: I think the stage 1 individuals are simply more noticible
[16:12] Traxx Hathor: We overestimate their numbers
[16:12] 314 Poindexter: but SL isn't like GTA
[16:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: More noticeable because there are so many of them! :D
[16:12] 314 Poindexter: where there is a game waiting for you
[16:12] 314 Poindexter: you have to make something of it to have fun
[16:12] Traxx Hathor: we can make our own game here
[16:12] Extropia DaSilva: It is if you go to Jessie.
[16:12] Ludo Merit: No gwyn, look at statistics
[16:12] 314 Poindexter: so there is far less incentive for breaking stuff
[16:12] Traxx Hathor: I play the Architecture game
[16:12] Crow: CAW!
[16:12] Scope Cleaver: NPC's in GTA is different that non-NPC's in SL, thats a huge difference ...
[16:13] Traxx Hathor: good point
[16:13] daniele Myriam: Ex: Offtopic but: If Stg6 is a hivemind as you posit, and also a groupconsciousness, and also runs us a simulation, I wonder if they are doing so for the express purpose of allowing us to become stg6.. so that we may integrate with them and they may
[16:13] daniele Myriam: exp[and
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tell me about the statistics, Ludo!
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me give a counter-example,
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: let's skip stage 6 for a moment,
[16:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and think about stage 5.
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: How many of you would be willing to live in a sim where all individuals would be stage 5 individuals,
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and model their sim to reflect it?
[16:14] Traxx Hathor: as long as I get to design it!
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: My bet: of around 300,000, over a period of three years.... just 30.
[16:14] jesz Murakami: what stage is ur bio-body more at one than a hive mind
[16:14] Extropia DaSilva: It's a statistical argument based on the amount of type0 civilizations a Matrioska Brain could model every second of computing cycle.
[16:14] 314 Poindexter: it would be interesting to visit
[16:14] Selaras Partridge: I'd be interested in Stage 6, not 5.
[16:14] 314 Poindexter: but it would be hard to say without viewing first
[16:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ? — guess what? You +are in it* ;)
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The only stage 5 sim in SL :)
[16:15] 314 Poindexter: lol
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now let's move to the ones which are in stage 4.
[16:15] Traxx Hathor: AH it's the commercial
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Here we have LOTS of them.
[16:15] Crow: CAW CAW!
[16:15] Traxx Hathor: Gwyn, tell us more about your stage5 sim heheheheh
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dozens of Furry communities, Goran communities, Desmond Shang's Caledon...
[16:15] Traxx Hathor: what makes it stage 5?
[16:15] Ludo Merit: Stage 5. Greatest good for greatest number. I['m not member of anuy majority I'd be miserable.
[16:15] Extropia DaSilva: Would there be a stage 1.1 and 1.2 like SL updates?
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's inhabited solely of stage 5 individuals, Traxx :)
[16:16] 314 Poindexter suddenly realizes he is in an infomercial masquerading as a philosophical discussion :)
[16:16] Traxx Hathor: was it always this way?
[16:16] Traxx Hathor: heheheh
[16:16] Leeza Everett: lol
[16:16] daniele Myriam giggles
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, I'd say, we have perhaps a hundred or so sims which are clearly stage 4 communities.
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Traxx, since November 2004 ;)
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol ?
[16:16] Traxx Hathor: : )
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: no, not really
[16:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's just because you're raising the idea that SL has a mix of individuals of all stages,
[16:16] Crow: CAW!
[16:17] Traxx Hathor: So this sim has a self-selected population
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but I dare you to count the sims that have an overwhelming majority of residents at a specific stage ;)
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say, 1 stage 5, 100 stage 4,
[16:17] 314 Poindexter: that would be quite a project
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps another 100 stage 3
[16:17] Traxx Hathor: The island I'm currently working on is Stage 194!
[16:17] daniele Myriam: Twould be interesting though. Any sociologists looking for a graduate thesis.... lol
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Many many stage 2 — look at Anshe's Dreamland!
[16:17] 314 Poindexter: hmmm how do you get level up points for your sim? :)
[16:17] Extropia DaSilva: You just made those numbers up, didn't you, Gwyn?
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And then, about 2000 (80%!) stage 1.
[16:17] Leeza Everett: many stage 3 perhaps
[16:18] Traxx Hathor: you really think there is no neighborliness in Dreamland?
[16:18] Leeza Everett: ah hehe
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not at all, Extropia — it was my homework before this meeting.
[16:18] Extropia DaSilva: Oh? Cool..how you get those figures?
[16:18] Crow: CAW!
[16:18] daniele Myriam raises her eyebrows. Nice assessment Gwyn!
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Traxx, of course there is!
[16:18] 314 Poindexter: I think your numbers for stage 1 and 2 might be inverted
[16:18] Traxx Hathor: There's a difference between the system and the individuals
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You do, ??
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps.
[16:18] 314 Poindexter: well maybe I don't see punishment as much as you do
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah agreed Traxx :)
[16:19] 314 Poindexter: if by (1) you mean the LL guidelines, then I guess any sim with few people so there is no interaction would fall there
[16:19] Traxx Hathor: The Dreamland system might be a primitive stage with some more advanced individuals
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, of course, Traxx
[16:19] Crow: CAW!
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and "advanced individuals" is a bad word,
[16:19] Traxx Hathor: But this sim has a more advanced system
[16:19] Traxx Hathor: aw
[16:19] 314 Poindexter: but I have a hard time believing that the majority of players lack selfinterest
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since this model does not say that stage 1 is "better" or "worse" than, say, stage 5
[16:19] Waya Sion: it'd be the more advanced individuals that make the groups on sl at the higher stage
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmmm Waya
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope you're right, although I also fear that a bit, to be honest :P
[16:20] Extropia DaSilva: I would say that there are kwarltan numbers of stage 6. (a kwarltan is an N dimensional moral compass requiring calabi-space pluristic thinking not accessible to pre-singularity beings).

[16:20] Waya Sion: but only as high as the average individual within the group
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, LOL, Extropia :)
[16:20] Traxx Hathor: but all it takes is one instrumental egoist at stage 2 to wreck it
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Totally so, Traxx.
[16:20] daniele Myriam: *BLinks and pretends to understand Ex*
[16:20] Extropia DaSilva: In you Earth numbers....42.
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Still, remember... human history is full of all those examples, all those stages....
[16:21] Traxx Hathor: then you get the interesting test -- what does your stage 5 group do about the problem
[16:21] Traxx Hathor: It's fine to talk about systems where people get together
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and this is a model that was created by a *western* philosopher. I'm sure that other cultures, for instance, wouldn't agree on many of those stages.
[16:21] Crow: CAW CAW!
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look at Imperial China, for instance....
[16:21] Traxx Hathor: but in practice they show their value in time s of adversity
[16:21] daniele Myriam: Gwyn: Is your thesis that most of RL society is on Stages 4 and 5? Hence the question for the meeting, being why SL is mostly on Stage 1 and 2?
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: clearly a stage 4 morality. It worked for *thousands* of years!
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, daniele,
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that is my thesis indeed,
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and so far ? has given us a good example why that is so.
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The pleasure/pain dichotomy.
[16:22] Leeza Everett: can go with ages too i think..little kids start off at stage one...teens progress to stage 3 and then we flucuate back and forth to stages 3-5 (6)
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I liked that model very well,
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it seems to be appropriate to explain why SL is so different from RL.
[16:22] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[16:22] Extropia DaSilva: Is this where I bring up the point I made before the people arrived, Gwyn?
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Leeza: Kohlberg's models, following Piaget's, were thought to be applied to children,
[16:23] Random Unsung gave you Cory Linden's Land, CSSW1 South (156, 90, 35).
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but unlike Piaget, Kohlberg postulated that several adults wouldn't go through all stages.
[16:23] Leeza Everett: ah
[16:23] Czar Nicholas: because there is no "real" consequences
[16:23] Crow: CAW!
[16:23] Leeza Everett: interesting
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extropia:please do!
[16:23] Czar Nicholas: are
[16:23] Extropia DaSilva: yeah..
[16:23] Multi Gadget v1.45.4 by Timeless Prototype
[16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: because besides ?, your arguments were the best I've heard so far to explain it all hehe
[16:24] Extropia DaSilva: heh. Do I get to use the soapbox again?
[16:24] 314 Poindexter: I just crashed
[16:24] The Soapbox: Extropia DaSilva is on the soapbox now!
[16:24] Leeza Everett: np
[16:24] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[16:24] Extropia DaSilva: Ok..
[16:25] Crow: CAW CAW!
[16:25] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[16:25] Extropia DaSilva: As I was saying to Gwyn. If we consider two diametrically opposed societies...total anarchy and total order..
[16:25] Extropia DaSilva: I think that the people in the total anarchy society would crave escapism into total order..
[16:26] Extropia DaSilva: But I also think that the people in a totally ordered society would crave escape into total anarchy...
[16:26] Czar Nicholas: :)
[16:26] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[16:26] Extropia DaSilva: Which makes you ponder the existence of worlds like GTA that offer exaclty that.
[16:27] Extropia DaSilva: Anyway...that was just something I raised with Gwyn:)
[16:27] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[16:27] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[16:27] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Extropia!
[16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not much unlike ?'s argument.
[16:27] 314 Poindexter: I think we are looking at very similar issues
[16:27] 314 Poindexter: maybe from slightly different angles
[16:27] jesz Murakami: but what if total anarchy IS total order!!?
[16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, i do agree.
[16:27] Traxx Hathor: For the people in the totally ordered society to crave escape like that they would have to perceive the rules.
[16:28] Extropia DaSilva: Please expand on that, Jesz.
[16:28] Traxx Hathor: It's possible to have a rule not apparent to an individual
[16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: jesz: I would say we *don't* have total anarchy in SL hehe
[16:28] 314 Poindexter: total anarchy is a freshly installed linux box with a root account and apache :)
[16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: just libertarianism under a very mild and benevolent dictatorship...
[16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww ? :)
[16:28] Extropia DaSilva: Hello Ali:)
[16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and hi Ali!)
[16:29] jesz Murakami: u r using this cultures defin of both as if anarchy is chaos --but u kno chaos is highest form of order lol
[16:29] Crow: CAW!
[16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (or rather: may His noodly appendage brush your face, Ali)
[16:29] Ali Maltz: :)
[16:29] Ali Maltz: Hi all.
[16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well!
[16:29] Extropia DaSilva: Chaos and perfect order maybe but not order that fits a purpose.
[16:29] SL Boutique Central: You have sold "Pack of Cigarettes" to Nathan Hutton.
[16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I guess it's time to finish this off,
[16:30] daniele Myriam looks sad
[16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks you all for coming, it has been *most* interesting ;)
[16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Awww why sad, daniele??
[16:30] 314 Poindexter: thanks for hosting
[16:30] Czar Nicholas: in the face of anarchy, everyone knows their place
[16:30] Traxx Hathor: Thanks for hosting, Gwyn
[16:30] Extropia DaSilva: It was fun!
[16:30] Czar Nicholas: in demoracy they dont
[16:30] Traxx Hathor: bye for now : )
[16:30] Ali Maltz: For the... latecomers... what was the summary? :)
[16:30] jesz Murakami: would a truly anarchic culture look at itself as disordered or as free
[16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you for coming, Traxx!
[16:30] Ali Maltz: Any conclusions?
[16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Ali,
[16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: rather surprisingly, we got 2 conclusions :)
[16:31] Selaras Partridge: Thank you for the discussion Gwyneth, very intriguing topic!
[16:31] Czar Nicholas: free through didorder
[16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And since people haven't disagreed to have the transcript posted,
[16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I will do that shortly.
[16:31] Ali Maltz: Fab.
[16:31] Crow: CAW!
[16:31] Extropia DaSilva: yay!
[16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It is intriguing, isn't it, Selaras?
[16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now my big confession,
[16:31] jesz Murakami: yes thnx gwyn and for the pre on wiki : )
[16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have struggled with this topic for almost two years now,
[16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but have never heard about Kohlberg and his theories.
[16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, I had no answers...
[16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and thanks to you guys,
[16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think I might have two answers now :)
[16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[16:32] jesz Murakami: mite wanna bring in maslow!!
[16:32] Extropia DaSilva: Next week's discussion? Does a Barnacle believe nothing that does not directly touch its little feet exists?
[16:32] Czar Nicholas: lol
[16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn bows to you all*
[16:32] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[16:32] 314 Poindexter: what about its plankton filters, ex?
[16:32] jesz Murakami: what dont touch 'em
[16:33] Ludo Merit: What are the 2 answers?
[16:33] Waya Sion: a theory is just a theory, an attempt to try and explain something. Maybe I should try and develop my own theory *giggles*
[16:33] Extropia DaSilva: Those are its feet.
[16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ex: do barnacles *think*? :)
[16:33] Extropia DaSilva: yeah.
[16:33] daniele Myriam: Ok
[16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Waya — I would *love* to hear that!
[16:33] jesz Murakami: will acid remove those barnacles
[16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Thinker's group forum is always open for further discussion...
[16:33] Extropia DaSilva: Mostly they think...I wish I was something OTHER than a stupid barnacle..
[16:33] Czar Nicholas: if thinking is an electrochemical interaction then on some level yes
[16:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thinking is an electrochemical interaction, but not all electrochemical reactions are thinking ;)
[16:34] Czar Nicholas: lol
[16:34] Scope Cleaver: Well said Gwyn.
[16:34] daniele Myriam: *Nods*
[16:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I would be scared if my torch batteries would think more than me....
[16:34] Selaras Partridge: heh
[16:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps they dop, but I don't want to know!!!
[16:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *do
[16:35] Crow: CAW CAW! CAW CAW!
[16:35] Scope Cleaver: I would love to know actually.
[16:35] jesz Murakami: but they could be your friend
[16:35] Scope Cleaver: THey'd lit up lol
[16:35] Extropia DaSilva: Interestingly a rock performs (on a sub-atomic level) 10^50 more calculations than a human being. It's just that they compute on a different timescale to us and merely appear to be doing nothing.
[16:35] Czar Nicholas: if they think it is on a level one
[16:35] Selaras Partridge: Maybe if everyone thought more -- even torch batteries! -- we'd be at Stage 6 by now (:
[16:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haaaa Extropia!
[16:35] daniele Myriam: Well in all seriousness <someone> said his thermostat had three beliefs: its too hot in here, its too cold in here, its just right. But tis hard to agree with him!
[16:36] Extropia DaSilva: Their thoughts are just too complex to be propperly understood.
[16:36] jesz Murakami: no they must be 'thinging' or no rock
[16:36] 314 Poindexter: a rock does that much more computation than a human brain, or all the matter in a human?
[16:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe daniele ;)
[16:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Extropia, you're reading too much terry Pratchett... ;)
[16:36] Crow: CAW!
[16:36] Waya Sion: well, as they say, the moment you stop thinking is the moment your no longer among the living
[16:37] Selaras Partridge: I'd better be heading out to grab some food... thank you again and take care everyone (:
[16:37] Extropia DaSilva: See, the human brain lies roughly between a rock (which performs orders of magnitude more DISORDERED calaculations) and the theoretical perfect computer with its several orders of magnitude more USEFUL calculations. Intersting, huh?
[16:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well guys, if you're interested into an invitation to the Thinkers' group to get properly spammed for discussion announcements, just ask for an invite.
[16:37] daniele Myriam: Ex: In what way are these calculations performed? :-S
[16:37] Ludo Merit: Want invite, Gwyn
[16:37] Extropia DaSilva: In what? A rock?
[16:37] daniele Myriam: Yah
[16:38] Waya Sion: i'd love to but i'm out of groups I can kill to join others
[16:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok .... Extropia acan also invite you as well hehehehe
[16:38] Czar Nicholas: invite please
[16:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww Waya — I have that problem for ages....
[16:38] 314 Poindexter: Extropia - so have you found a computing machine that is more sophisticated than a Turing machine!?!?!?
[16:38] daniele Myriam: Surely part of the definition of calculation is that it is about something: when I press 2+2 on my calculator the electronic silicon doodars do their work performing calculations but the essense of it is that it means something to me: something more than
[16:38] Crow: CAW CAW!
[16:38] daniele Myriam: merely electrical sillicon interactions
[16:38] Extropia DaSilva: Well in the nuclear spin of its particles. The quantum spin of up and down is analogous to the 0 and 1 binary counting system that all computers use:)
[16:39] daniele Myriam: Its not performing calculations then, it's merely.. spinning
[16:39] 314 Poindexter: right, but can you demonstrate that a rock's quantum computation ability is greater than a universal turing machine?
[16:39] daniele Myriam: Hehe
[16:39] 314 Poindexter: it seems like you need a lot of effort to get quantum entaglement up and running
[16:39] 314 Poindexter: to properly do theoretically post-NP computations
[16:40] Extropia DaSilva: You don;t need that for a rock since the rock is not required to reveal the answer.
[16:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: right....
[16:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have sadly to leave you all...
[16:40] Crow: CAW CAW!

Looking through this transcript makes one thing apparent -- somebody should rescript that crow! I recommend subtle modifications to make the crow's commentary more context-sensitive...like distinguishing between whether the soapbox is occupied or not. The crow's commentary might be varied to suggest levels of agitation:

level of agitation 1: CAW!
loa 2: CAW CAW!
loa 3: CAW CAW CAW!
loa 4: CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW (crow falls over, and goes inert)

We can have fun speeding the crow to loa 4 as expeditiously as possible. : P

That post made me laugh, Traxx! Thank you (:

And now my curiosity is re-piqued, does anyone know where that crow came from?

I have no idea, some resident brought the crow with them and my colourising script does not know about "crows"

I love Traxx's suggestion, BTW We need more "artificially intelligent crows"; should be fun to do, and naturally enough, this would be called "Project Nevermore"