Friday October 7, 2005 - 2 PM
Where is the open source community in SL?
A swarm of very talented persons roam SL, but many are reinventing the wheel at each step. A developed open source community could help make SL advance faster, but we lack key enablers - both technological and political - to really make it work for all kind of content: from scripts to textures to objects.
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SLCC Thinkers' discussion on "Open Source Community in SL" |
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Kitten Lulu
Registered User
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 114
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10-12-2005 03:35
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Kitten Lulu
Registered User
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 114
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10-12-2005 03:36
Open Source Community in SL - Part 1 of 3
Kitten Lulu: I am a programmer in RL and I am involved in open source projects, so I naturally tried to search for a cummunity here. But I have found that it's not as thriving and heathy Kitten Lulu: as the ones I knew. Kitten Lulu: Why? I think there are a few causes. Kitten Lulu: Technical causes Kitten Lulu: social causes Nico Toonie: mainly Kitten Lulu: and political too Kitten Lulu: For the first ones Kitten Lulu: I know a few of you are builders and scripters. Don't you think LSL gives us quie a lot of limits? Kitten Lulu: like no library support? Jackal Ennui: yes. that was the first on my mind Jackal Ennui: no includes Kitten Lulu: Hi Tom, Hi Seifert Kitten Lulu: We hare disucssing Open Source in SL Tom Bukowski: Hello! Nico Toonie: I think SL is not a fertile field for open source because of many limitations in LSL. Open Source have power as the limits are wide. here we have too much limits Aliasi Stonebender: That said You shout: By the way, thinking of open source as only relating to sripting is quite limiting. Consider textures, gestures and builds too. Kitten Lulu: argh Nico Toonie: I think only an "Open Life" could do that...  Aliasi Stonebender: most scripters are "small time", "amateurs".. and even builders... and many people think nothing of giving their stuff away, full-perm either. Aliasi Stonebender: So I'd say, just for sake of argument Spengler Roo: I don't mean to try to keep last night's discussion going but I think a lot of it is designed into the SL economy. People are encouraged to create for ownership and sale by LL Kitten Lulu: There are examples of open source projects, good ones in SL. Kitten Lulu: Think about AOs for examlpe Aliasi Stonebender: there's no "open source movement" in SL because those who would be inclinded are already doing so without needing a "movement"? Akage Doctorow: AOs? Kitten Lulu: Animation Overrides Akage Doctorow: thx Kitten Lulu: Why they work? Because they are complementary to existing products, and the economy is what drives many SL dwellers Kitten Lulu: So, it makes sense to make AO scripts opensource... you make money on the animations Kitten Lulu: Hi Traxx Traxx Hathor: hi all : ) Nico Toonie: they are always limitating.. having APIs to commonicate with sims I could code mine sim, for example. and in that sim I could experiment.. don't know.. different kind of video streaming, html integration. and it could be useful to the development Kitten Lulu: We just started and I am already monopolizing the discussion, please save my first experience as an host, Traxx ^_^ Traxx Hathor: sometimes you have to : ) Kitten Lulu: Nico, this is actually a good point. An old time dweller of SL complained with me about LL not going open source Nico Toonie: yes, it's quite a paradox.. no game more than SL should be open source Kitten Lulu: Cory Linden recently commented on her blog about open source in SL Traxx Hathor: Do we have an official LL policy on that, or just scattered pronouncements? Kitten Lulu: I haven't been able to find an official LL policy Seifert Surface: (cory is male) Kitten Lulu: They obviously want to control the platform Kitten Lulu: thank you, Seifert (English is not my mother tongue, so I have problems sometimes) Traxx Hathor: The particular comments I've read sound positive toward open source Kitten Lulu: They are good users of open source, as far as I can tell. Kitten Lulu: But are not willing to open their viewer for example Traxx Hathor: what would be the downside of opening the viewer? Seifert Surface: security? Kitten Lulu: loss of control Nico Toonie: what do you mean with "viewer"? the client? Kitten Lulu: someone could develop it's own server Kitten Lulu: and there is a lot of IP in the viewer, the streaming part of SL is not easy to reproduce Kitten Lulu: veiwer=client, that's how LL calls it Traxx Hathor: but our data of value is stored serverside Traxx Hathor: so we can't cheat that way Kitten Lulu: Cory (male =) wrote that there are a few goals and needs of open source: Kitten Lulu: Empower people to experiment Nico Toonie: opening the client would already be a great thing. We would have lighter clients and maybe additional functions as voice chat or others Kitten Lulu: SL obviously does that to a great extent Kitten Lulu: Enable bits of information to find each other Kitten Lulu: We are lacking here in my opinion Seifert Surface: how could they update the client effectively if everyone had other versions? Kitten Lulu: They could open it up in other ways Kitten Lulu: For example, I'd love to be able to add spellchecking Kitten Lulu: A plugin system would enable me to Traxx Hathor: standardized plug-in interfacce would be great Kitten Lulu: yes Seifert Surface: that would be cool Nico Toonie: it's a great work, but the traffic between client and server can be analyzed and reproduced Kitten Lulu: Also, opening up SL to the world Kitten Lulu: I want to build a thesaurus Kitten Lulu: in-game thesaurus Kitten Lulu: I have to go thru email to do that Kitten Lulu: and I risk being blocked by SL servers because of mail flood Kitten Lulu: mmmh.. ok, let's move one Kitten Lulu: permissions Traxx Hathor: you mean the existing system? Akage Doctorow: WHat about servers? Kitten Lulu: How can I give out a thing and be sure it doesn't get closed up Seifert Surface: by posting the code to the forums Seifert Surface: (if its a script) Kitten Lulu: Maybe it's an house Traxx Hathor: yes Kitten Lulu: or a texture Aliasi Stonebender: Give it to Yadni.  Traxx Hathor: posting to the forums works for scripts Seifert Surface: well, if you retain a presence in world, and from that presence make your stuff freely available... Kitten Lulu: There is no way to enforce it Traxx Hathor: but we have problems with the existing permissions system Nico Toonie: it depends if you intend that the code got to be public, or you intend a closed project CAN'T use your code as in GPL Aliasi Stonebender: There's no way to enforce it in the REAL world if you're clever enough. Traxx Hathor: sometimes a person will wreck it and sell it Kitten Lulu: Yes, Nico, my point is you can't have GPL in SL Traxx Hathor: no enforcement Kitten Lulu: Actually FSF has been involved in the past and decided it couldn't Aliasi Stonebender: Re: some of the controversy about... I think it was Microsoft closing some open-source code they adapted for Windows? Seifert Surface: theres no way to enforce that, without a huge amount of beauracracy Nico Toonie: someone uses GPl Kitten Lulu: yes, they used the network stack from BSD Kitten Lulu: the license allowed taht Kitten Lulu: there is a very simple way Kitten Lulu: just make a new kind of transfer permission that is not revocable and is inherited when you link objects Aliasi Stonebender: not really, kitten. Traxx Hathor: sounds like a good proposal for the feature voting system Aliasi Stonebender: at least, with scripts, you can copy/paste. with textures, you could still save to harddrive Nico Toonie: the same problem is in RL, Kitten. I can take GPL code, remove the license, and release it Aliasi Stonebender: even if you can't use the literal feature, a screencapture can do quite nicely. Traxx Hathor: the bad apples will always find a way around permissions of any sort Kitten Lulu: That's true, Aliasi Kitten Lulu: but we can't pretend LL to solve the general DRM problem Akage Doctorow: I agree with Nico. Nico Toonie: that one is a general problem.. both in RL and SL. not only in SL Aliasi Stonebender: Which is anothe rinteresting point... keep in mind I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, I do love open-source. Aliasi Stonebender: but Sl has DRM, just like they're trying to establish in RL Kitten Lulu: Yes, I appreciate devil's advocates Aliasi Stonebender: yet we haven't had mass chaos, panic, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria. Akage Doctorow: So perhaps a "sourceforge" with the SL 'verse? Kitten Lulu: maybe they can watermark textures on download with the permissions? Seifert Surface: mm, here in sl, it is real people you know who are earning money off their hard work, because of the drm. in rl it is faceless evil corporations Kitten Lulu: Yes, that is another point that I wanted to discuss Kitten Lulu: we lack effective sharing tools in-game Kitten Lulu: and we lack collaboration and serach tools Kitten Lulu: like sourceforge Seifert Surface: yes, i want a user friendly prim wiki! Kitten Lulu: I want a prim-friendly wik Kitten Lulu: wiki Akage Doctorow: Could "we" not build a sourceforge in SL? Aliasi Stonebender: I do agree. Akage Doctorow: A library? Aliasi Stonebender: in one of my own groups Aliasi Stonebender: we're working on a sports game, "Holoball" Traxx Hathor: LL would have to host the sourceforge Kitten Lulu: not just a library, let say I want a chair that I can modify Kitten Lulu: how do I find one here? Aliasi Stonebender: and we've run into all kinds ofprovblems with forgetting to share with group, forgetting proper next-user perms if someone needs to modify, etc Kitten Lulu: I have to go aorund product-hunting Kitten Lulu: we lack google for SL Nico Toonie: you can try to create it Seifert Surface: aliasi - yes, the defaults are very annoying Kitten Lulu: I want to search for objects with this permissions and this title/description Akage Doctorow: True, as a newb, it is quite hard to find anything at times Traxx Hathor: we have Find, but it is often misleading Kitten Lulu: About collaboration/project tools, we need a better way to manage complex builds Traxx Hathor: you end up sifting through stuff you don't want Nico Toonie: "find" doesn't search for "products" Kitten Lulu: a grep for prims Aliasi Stonebender: heh, often, I wind up searching SL Exchange or Boutique as a pseudo-Google Traxx Hathor: the keywords for a store category can include products Traxx Hathor: such as jewelry Aliasi Stonebender: which of course is just a sbad as find... you only get the people selling through those avenues Seifert Surface: we dont (yet) have hyperlinks in sl... so google algorithms for ordering the info wont work Traxx Hathor: exactly, Aliasi Kitten Lulu: The problem with the find functionality is also that the tagging is provided by the creators Traxx Hathor: some is out of date Traxx Hathor: some is misleading Nico Toonie: yes, it should work in a way in which people introduce data in it. not automatic data mining Kitten Lulu: we actually have hyperlinks Kitten Lulu: it's proximity and usage metrics Aliasi Stonebender: well, landmarks to act as pseudo-hyperlinks in a sense Aliasi Stonebender: and I know there are some services to index those Traxx Hathor: we have traffic as a usage metric Traxx Hathor: but traffic stats are unreliable Seifert Surface: what you want to know is what someone's experiences in going to try to buy, say, jewellry were Seifert Surface: where did they go Kitten Lulu: I am building a garden, I have a tiki garden lamp but I want a barbecue Seifert Surface: what did they end up buying Kitten Lulu: the system shall be able to know that these things are often seen close by Kitten Lulu: so can point me to a source for one when I want the other Shirokuro Sojourner: hello Traxx Hathor: hi Shirokuro Kitten Lulu: Hi Shirokuro Tom Bukowski: Helo! Aliasi Stonebender: what we need... is an SL Rotten Tomatoes.com. Shirokuro Sojourner: hi, sorry im late  Kitten Lulu: lmao Merrow Majestic: hi shirokuro Shirokuro Sojourner: lol Kitten Lulu: Maybe citizen-supplied tags can help in searching too Kitten Lulu: and that's something that can be done with the existing tools Kitten Lulu: Any of you know delicious? Kitten Lulu: or odeo? Akage Doctorow: yes Kitten Lulu: basically delicious is a shared bookmark + tagging system Kitten Lulu: social bookmarks, as they love to call Kitten Lulu: People can tag webpages and search what others have tagged Kitten Lulu: it works quite well Kitten Lulu: An in-game example: Kitten Lulu: Some obscure shop has nice gizmos, Kitten Lulu: but they don't market it as such Kitten Lulu: think.... outland's blusher Kitten Lulu: she sells sci-fi gear Kitten Lulu: you can't find the blusher with the find interface Kitten Lulu: but someone interested in that product could add a tag for it Aliasi Stonebender: yes, she just posted a little on the forums about it. Kitten Lulu: and I'll find it Akage Doctorow: I don't suppose a "in-game" delicious can be created now? Kitten Lulu: It's this kind of collective intelligence thing that we lack Kitten Lulu: it can be created with a mixture of in-game and out-of-game things Kitten Lulu: basically the server stays outside Shirokuro Sojourner: it could be an extension of the "My picks" system Kitten Lulu: yes Kitten Lulu: Actually mining the My Picks data would be enough Kitten Lulu: but there is not way to search it Traxx Hathor: My Picks is limited to a very small set of locations Akage Doctorow: my picks? sorry I'm a newb, what is that? Traxx Hathor: it's in your profile Traxx Hathor: third tab Kitten Lulu: yes, maybe you don't want to show in your profile that you are intersted in some kind of things Kitten Lulu: It's not so lightweight |
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Kitten Lulu
Registered User
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 114
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10-12-2005 03:37
Open Source Community in SL - Part 2 of 3
Kitten Lulu: but it could surely be a starting point, Shirokuro Sojourner: what about the infoweb? Shirokuro Sojourner: anlthough i dont know if people are able to write data into that yet Kitten Lulu: I don't know, but it feels limited to me Kitten Lulu: like gopher Akage Doctorow: Yes, Infoweb seemed to be heading in the direction of open info sharing. Kitten Lulu: when we are in a 3D world Shirokuro Sojourner: true lol Shirokuro Sojourner: i kenw the infoweb reminded me of something... lol Kitten Lulu: Well back to Open Source Community in SL Kitten Lulu: where is the community? Traxx Hathor: The scripting forums Traxx Hathor: that's a good place to start <u>Traxx Hathor</u>Akage Doctorow thinks we are looking at it [/color] <u>Traxx Hathor</u>Kitten Lulu nods[/color] Kitten Lulu: Yeah, the forums are a good community tool Akage Doctorow: But the forums would be outside SL? Traxx Hathor: you can make a link from a forum post to a location within SL Kitten Lulu: however, think about Nualtenburg. Kitten Lulu: Isn't it a community building a project? Traxx Hathor: Neualt is an excellent example Aliasi Stonebender: I like to think so. Traxx Hathor: It's a group with a certain objective Traxx Hathor: and some people appreciate that Traxx Hathor: others object to it for some unknown reason Traxx Hathor: apparently there was considerable controversy about it on the forums at one time Aliasi Stonebender: oh, that's easy Traxx. didn't you know we're all secretly commie mutant traitors? *grin* Traxx Hathor: heheheheh Shirokuro Sojourner: lol Kitten Lulu: lmao Traxx Hathor: I find the scripting forums much different from the others Shirokuro Sojourner: i visited neualtenburg just this morning. It is truly amazing Traxx Hathor: people are helpful Shirokuro Sojourner: a testament to what is possible in SL Seifert Surface: building forums too Traxx Hathor: exactly Kitten Lulu: It's actually quite interesting Traxx Hathor: building forums are helpful too Seifert Surface: though theres obviously more you can do to help someone in scripting forum than builiding Kitten Lulu: there is collaboration going on there bu also self-government Kitten Lulu: another thing that is needed to make a community-based open source effort thrive Seifert Surface: the scripting wiki as well? Kitten Lulu: I love it as a reference Kitten Lulu: back to Open Source in SL Kitten Lulu: Do you think that a more direct connection with the SL Economy could improve the situation? Tom Bukowski: In what ways is the open source questio in sl about more than prograimming? Traxx Hathor: security Tom Bukowski: FOr instance, using a texture you buy to make a house Tom Bukowski: ARe the social forms that are engendered by sl supportve of a kind of open-source sociality? Traxx Hathor: suppose Open Source evolved to allow not only open source clients but also open source servers Kitten Lulu: Tom, for example. I have a texture of a wall in a particular architectural style... someone uses it for his house and adds a window Shirokuro Sojourner: you mean like private grids traxx? Traxx Hathor: yes Kitten Lulu: If I could release my texture as open, I could get a copy of the window Traxx Hathor: Gwyn feels that LL is headed that way Kitten Lulu: The real value of SL is not just the platform, but the community Traxx Hathor: private servers for sims Traxx Hathor: the IP is real value too Traxx Hathor: hiya Moon Moon Adamant: hello all Kitten Lulu: it is, but things change so fast technology-wise Kitten Lulu: Hi Moon Traxx Hathor: : ) Akage Doctorow: Being able to have your own server would be good Shirokuro Sojourner: private grids or sims would be great Traxx Hathor: I can see the separate continents being hosted on private servers Kitten Lulu: When you buy an island, aren't you basically doing the same? Shirokuro Sojourner: you could run it on the same machine and wouldnt need to be online Shirokuro Sojourner: build and script with no lag Traxx Hathor: right now the different continents are similar Traxx Hathor: with private servers they could offer substantially different sims Shirokuro Sojourner: BUT in order for what you build to have any value, you need to put it on the main grid at some point Aliasi Stonebender: not exactly, since it's still hosted in LL's colocation facility. Traxx Hathor: you need connection Aliasi Stonebender: re: kitten's comment Kitten Lulu: I see your point Akage Doctorow: Indeed, It would be good to have servers globally Aliasi Stonebender: it's still their software. Aliasi Stonebender: even if it wasn't open-sourced, to have a truly "private" sim Aliasi Stonebender: you'd want to be able to have your own server (which, admittedly, would probably also be in a colocation somewhere) Akage Doctorow: like the ol' internet/www the ability to host your own server part of the magic. Aliasi Stonebender: thus your own software, your own connection. Aliasi Stonebender: and that doesn't seem too hard in theory Aliasi Stonebender: just like now you go to diff sims, and sims are connected Akage Doctorow: LL could still be main "hostbut people could have their own small universes/grid/sim", Traxx Hathor: exactly Aliasi Stonebender: a DNS-like scheme of sim indexes isn't hard to imagine Shirokuro Sojourner: I think LL will hold off for a long time on licensing the server SW to people Shirokuro Sojourner: unless its big corporate projects or something Kitten Lulu: That's actually quite in line with my vision of a future P2P-based SL that Traxx so deeply fears *winks* Traxx Hathor: heh Shirokuro Sojourner: if there was an application, I could see corporate "Intranet" grids Traxx Hathor: Kitten I should clarify Traxx Hathor: I genuinely like p2p Traxx Hathor: just that security comes first Kitten Lulu: You fear client-to-client connections because people could hijak the protocol and use vulnerabilities in the viewer to spread worms and such filths Traxx Hathor: yup Akage Doctorow: HOw would a P2P SL affect the SL economy, and does that matter? Traxx Hathor: if it spread exploits Kitten Lulu: The economy itself, I don't know. Traxx Hathor: that could undermine the economy Akage Doctorow: I suspect that could happen now anyway Akage Doctorow: (exploits that is) Kitten Lulu: It could surely improve the experience and lower the costs of running SL Traxx Hathor: I still support that line of development though Shirokuro Sojourner: i thin the main worry about having P2P SL is that if it gets too widespread, then the whole concept of a "global" grid could become less relevant Shirokuro Sojourner: if everybody has their own private grids i mean Traxx Hathor: LL could be a company hosting the connectivity Kitten Lulu: It will be like Intranet / Internet now Traxx Hathor: not the land Traxx Hathor: the entire SL world could be on private sims Kitten Lulu: LL could be the info hub and tech provider Shirokuro Sojourner: yes i am sure LL could make it wqork financially for themselves Kitten Lulu: like Skype does Shirokuro Sojourner: but the users would suffer as the "global" community gets splintered Traxx Hathor: yes it might be a good business model for LL Aliasi Stonebender: Well, a true global "metaverse" wouldn't use the fake money we do now, I imagine... some form of micropayment based on real-world currencies would have to be established, which is what the L$ effectively does now. Traxx Hathor: Shirokuro we could also see increased creativity Kitten Lulu: We shall make sure Ebay buys LL too Aliasi Stonebender: Which means either a new system, or LL admitting the L$ has value. Kitten Lulu: so we integrate SKype, SL and Paypal Kitten Lulu: =) Shirokuro Sojourner: in which way Traxx? Akage Doctorow: Lindex, I think they know that L$ have value Aliasi Stonebender: no, Akage Traxx Hathor: Look at the Elf Clan sims, for example : ) Akage Doctorow: no? Aliasi Stonebender: they know people will buy and sell L$ for US$. Aliasi Stonebender: that's not quite the same as acknowledging Traxx Hathor: Those sims have a particular style and provide a particular experience Aliasi Stonebender: that THEY value it Merrow Majestic: there are actually virtual currencys sold at ebay... Shirokuro Sojourner: I see what you mean Traxx Traxx Hathor: private hosting could enhance that Akage Doctorow: I see what you mean Aliasi Stonebender: you can pay any debt you incur to the United States government in US$. Kitten Lulu: When they accept fees paid in L$, that is when they'll value it Aliasi Stonebender: try paying your tier with L$. Shirokuro Sojourner: but if there isnt a global grid, then how do groups nlike Elf Caln for eaxmple, get members? Traxx Hathor: think of battlemace competitions with more processing resources : ) Aliasi Stonebender: (and not by "selling L$ for US$", mind) Kitten Lulu: the same way we can have webrings Kitten Lulu: a global grid will exists Kitten Lulu: but more than a grib it will be a global web of servers Shirokuro Sojourner: hmmm. maybe the global grid will stay but be a "portal" system Shirokuro Sojourner: people pass through in transit between private grids Traxx Hathor: yes Shirokuro Sojourner: an interdimensional gateway lol Akage Doctorow: Aliasi, I see what you mean. ht? Kitten Lulu: It's not unlike how the web works now, but I envision that if we go fully P2P... we'll see people "paying" with their CPU-cycles Kitten Lulu: hosting a piece of the global metaverse Traxx Hathor: and those private grids are like Anshe's land and Hiro's land Traxx Hathor: they could provide very different experiences Traxx Hathor: particularly those that provided gaming experiences Aliasi Stonebender: indeed. people seem to find communities on the Internet well enough. Traxx Hathor: One of the initial draws of SL was as a sandbox for people to develop games Traxx Hathor: but the resources don't support that very well Hiro Pendragon: HALLO THINKERS! Traxx Hathor: private hosting could change that Kitten Lulu: Hi Hiro Aliasi Stonebender: yo, hiro. Traxx Hathor: hiya Hiro : ) <u>Traxx Hathor</u>masterstrik2 Zephyr waves[/color] Shirokuro Sojourner: hi hiro Zarf Vantongerloo: hi all - sorry I missed almost all of this! Traxx Hathor: we were talking about LL becoming a connectivity service Hiro Pendragon: Hey thinkers.... we're coming live from State of Play Kitten Lulu: Oh! Aliasi Stonebender: woah. Tom Bukowski: kewl! Aliasi Stonebender: you mean people are watching? Alan Kiesler: Evening Gwyn. MichaelJohn Turner: cool Hiro Pendragon: Yes! Shirokuro Sojourner: cool! <u>Shirokuro Sojourner</u>Aliasi Stonebender looks aroudn shiftily.[/color] Traxx Hathor: maybe you could recapitulate, Kitten? Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi everybody, sorry for being one hour late, lol Shirokuro Sojourner: Hello, Mum! lol Kitten Lulu: mmh, good time to propose our grand vision for the new SL =) masterstrik2 Zephyr: lol Kitten Lulu: We were drifting away from Open Source into a discussion on how a P2P SL would change Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww lol Akage Doctorow: Indeed, two topics really. Kitten Lulu: and they left before I even started =) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I'll remain silent on that one Traxx Hathor: Open source client led to open source server discussion Akage Doctorow: 1. OPen source within SL Akage Doctorow: 2. P2P SL Traxx Hathor: c'mon, Gwyn Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I mean, have you *ever* tried any P2P "metaverse"? Traxx Hathor: Then we were in a pitched battle about fractured worlds : ) masterstrik2 Zephyr: that would be askin for trouble Gwyneth Llewelyn: Try it first, then discuss it masterstrik2 Zephyr: specialy in the case of hackers Kitten Lulu: We think some P2P technologies could improve SL, for example texture distribution Gwyneth Llewelyn: masterstrik2: yes, precisely Kitten Lulu: but we fear of the security implication of client-to-client direct communication Traxx Hathor: Security comes first Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, short poll ? how much upload bandwidth do you have on your home broadband connection? masterstrik2 Zephyr: indeed Akage Doctorow: 256 Zarf Vantongerloo: not enough! Shirokuro Sojourner: good poit gwyneth Traxx Hathor: never enough Zarf Vantongerloo: 384kbps Gwyneth Llewelyn: 256 here as well Kitten Lulu: mmh, 256+512kbits with two redundant DSls Shirokuro Sojourner: *point Kitten Lulu: DSLs masterstrik2 Zephyr: t1 Shirokuro Sojourner: most people probably dont have very much Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now consider this... Nico Toonie: it's also true than you got to develop a game based on resources.. and with P2P you can't predict resources. Do exist something like that? Gwyneth Llewelyn: Each sim in SL has 10 Mbps upload bandwidth Gwyneth Llewelyn: To support 40 avatars. Gwyneth Llewelyn: How many will your P2P connection support? masterstrik2 Zephyr: 35 now actyly Kitten Lulu: It will be enought if it supports just 1/2 Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1/2, yes Kitten Lulu: it means 500 les avatars on SL resources |
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Kitten Lulu
Registered User
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 114
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10-12-2005 03:40
Open Source Community in SL - Part 3 of 3... argh, actually 4 (too many smileys sorry, we had fun)
Kitten Lulu: thus much less lag Nico Toonie: 1/2 it's too much, I think Aliasi Stonebender: true, to a point, if all you want is a private space for you and some friends... Traxx Hathor: Gwyn, I think we're assuming that sim hosts will use a hosting service Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah Gwyneth Llewelyn: So what is the point on the P2P then? Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Kitten Lulu: We were talking of two different architectures actually Kitten Lulu: privately hosted sims Traxx Hathor: to dedicate more processing resources to some sims and subcontinents Kitten Lulu: and P2P Gwyneth Llewelyn: you see, I'm pretty skeptic ? all technologies I tried on P2P metaverses were demo'ed in 1 Gbps Ethernets Traxx Hathor: for a different user experience Traxx Hathor: particularly gaming Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, games will work well. Traxx Hathor: there are a lot of hardcore gamers out there to be won over Kitten Lulu: P2P is already being used in gaming Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, MMORPGs will work well with P2P Kitten Lulu: WoW updates their clients using bittorrent Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think I quoted this before... Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, I was going to mention that Nico Toonie: which game, Kitten? masterstrik2 Zephyr: guildwars Traxx Hathor: a persistent world that we can change Kitten Lulu: World of Warcraft Aliasi Stonebender: does make actually downloading the updates a bit of a pain though Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1. SL. 60,000 residents. 2,000 sims. Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2. WoW. 4 million users (1 million online simultaneously). 100 servers. Traxx Hathor: Guild Wars with user supplied content in the towns and outposts Zarf Vantongerloo: a zillion years ago, when we (or I at least) played MUSHes, it was not uncommon for people to host their own and there was a MUSH/MUD interconnect protocol Traxx Hathor: and instanced quests Nico Toonie: updating clients is not the same. real time tasks are quite different Kitten Lulu: Skype does P2P in realtime masterstrik2 Zephyr: aye Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Zarf ? *text* is easy, lol Nico Toonie: well, but Skype requires ridicolous bandwidht Zarf Vantongerloo: none the less, people still tended to play on the larger, group MUSHES Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't think you're following my maths, though.... Kitten Lulu: So our final plan was, make Ebay buy LL and integrate it with Paypal and SL Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kitten Lulu: *grins* Zarf Vantongerloo: so my point is that even when the tech is easy, people may not want to do it Gwyneth Llewelyn: My point is, the technology is fine, the bandwidth is not Traxx Hathor: hosting services Aliasi Stonebender: Let's get SL declared necessary for national security and shoved under ARPA. Sounds crazy, but hey, worked for the 'net. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi, good idea  masterstrik2 Zephyr: hehe Kitten Lulu: We are moving that way, I don't know the state in the USA. But Italy just passed a law that basically made it free for any company to build their own connection service using wireless networks Kitten Lulu: There are huge WiMax projects starting around here Kitten Lulu: and mesh networks too Traxx Hathor: free in what sense? Kitten Lulu: As in no government concession/tax needed Gwyneth Llewelyn: Traxx ? but if you move everyone to hosting services (and mind you, getting 10 Mbps upstream in a server is not dirt cheap, although affordable), where is the point in P2P technologies? Kitten Lulu: before that you'd have to ask for permission, Traxx Hathor: We shifted from p2p to that, Gwyn Kitten Lulu: yeah, Italy is not liberal in many senses Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Traxx Traxx Hathor: and we shifted from open source to p2p! Zarf Vantongerloo: the real question is would we lose something by being P2P? Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahaha Kitten Lulu: lmao Traxx Hathor: very shift discussion Zarf Vantongerloo: we'd all have our own island sims Traxx Hathor: shifty people here Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Traxx Traxx Hathor: the island sims are great Shirokuro Sojourner: what about something like in the book Zarf Vantongerloo: and in a way, not so great Shirokuro Sojourner: oops Traxx Hathor: you get to terraform and texture the land Zarf Vantongerloo: I love having neighbors - it is a great social experience Traxx Hathor: Zarf the island sims need that too Shirokuro Sojourner: "Snow Crash" - where he has his offline office when he doiesnt have a connection to the main grid Seifert Surface: there are island sims with neighbours Traxx Hathor: yes Akage Doctorow: I have tried some other Metaverse and they are not as popular nor and good as SL, possibly because centralised control is helping drive SL? Zarf Vantongerloo: yes Traxx Hathor: subcontinents Zarf Vantongerloo: I'm just saying that I fear that IF we all had the bandwidth and the compute power Seifert Surface: when you have neighbouring island sims, they are neighbours by choice, which is even better Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, centralised control is not really the issue... Zarf Vantongerloo: we'd all just run our own sims and not have neighbors Aliasi Stonebender: I think that having a centralized control to begin something can be good. Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah, good point, Zarf Traxx Hathor: I like neighbors Kitten Lulu: Why can't our sims be interconnected? Seifert Surface: nah, i doubt it Kitten Lulu: We can run our own webservers and have links to others Shirokuro Sojourner: the technology would have to be way way better Zarf Vantongerloo: hmmm - perhpas P2P sims should be smaller, like 64m x 64m Traxx Hathor: many island sims have a commercial constituent, and the owners want neighbors for flyover traffic Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would be the second poll ? how many of you host your own web servers at home? Zarf Vantongerloo: that way there is more interaction Aliasi Stonebender: and Zarf, I think the point is we wouldn't. We don't all run our own websites on our own servers, and that requires a mere fraction of SL bandwidth. Zarf Vantongerloo: a whole sim is pretty big... Shirokuro Sojourner: just look at the problems with sim crossings now - and thats with all the servers at LL <u>Shirokuro Sojourner</u>Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Aliasi[/color] Zarf Vantongerloo: true Kitten Lulu: I think the only way to have P2P sims is to have fluid borders Zarf Vantongerloo: I mean, don't get me wrong - Kitten Lulu: they won't be a grid anymore Traxx Hathor: fluid borders still require an interface Kitten Lulu: but a cellular network not unlike our mobile phone ones Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, Kitten, the sims in SL are P2P to each other.... Zarf Vantongerloo: I have a big server in a CoLo facility for my own personal use -- I'd run a P2P SL sim in a heartbeat Akage Doctorow: I host my own, bbut only for me. My "public" site is hosted Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zarf ? but not from your home Traxx Hathor: not from home, certainly Kitten Lulu: what I meant with fluid borders is: two or more sims taking care of the simulation Kitten Lulu: sharing tasks Zarf Vantongerloo: true - but I don't even run my web server from my home (which just make A.'s point) Kitten Lulu: not one handing me over to another Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Zarf. Traxx Hathor: as long as that sharing occured within the subcontinent Shirokuro Sojourner: would make sim crossings better, kitten Zarf Vantongerloo: actually, my partner keeps bugging me to get a higher BW home connection... Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, Kitten Kitten Lulu: would make it less expensive to support the whole grid Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is something different indeed. Akage Doctorow: So shared processing rather than cellular? Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* Kitten Lulu: yes Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree. It would be better. Tom Bukowski: Gotta run folks - ty for the discussion! Kitten Lulu: I meant cellular as the network architecture not the processing paradigm Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, it would allow us to run 1,000-people events easily.... Kitten Lulu: Bye Tom Zarf Vantongerloo: RL calls... must go Shirokuro Sojourner: bye tom |
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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10-12-2005 03:42
I really like that flowchart thingamaroo. It's so easy to enjoy, and it has some thoughtlines I've been following for some time. And I'll be following this.
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Kitten Lulu
Registered User
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 114
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10-12-2005 03:43
Open Source Community in SL - Part 4 of 4
Shirokuro Sojourner: bye zarf Gwyneth Llewelyn: See you, Tom Kitten Lulu: that's it ,Gwy neth Akage Doctorow: SL@home sort of thing Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm, yes Shirokuro Sojourner: sl already is kind of celular Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually ? and I'm not sure any Linden is peeping on us, lol ? doing it the way LL did is easier to program Traxx Hathor: 1000 person events sound good. Even 100 person events could be good it it's a game Kitten Lulu: There are existing reseach on multi-agent networks that can be used to implement it Shirokuro Sojourner: in that you "handoff" between one sim and the next as you move between Traxx Hathor: Time for me to get back to the jobsite. Cya ppl : ) Kitten Lulu: Bye Traxx Gwyneth Llewelyn: Shameless plug on how SL works... http://secondlife.game-host.org/article20visual1layout1.html Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Akage Doctorow: cya Traxx Hathor: thanks for hosting, Kitten : ) Shirokuro Sojourner: gbye traxx! Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye Traxx Kitten Lulu wants clickable URls in SL  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, me too!!!!! <u>Gwyneth Llewelyn</u>Akage Doctorow agrees[/color] Gwyneth Llewelyn: grrr! Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sadly, not even on 1.7, I'm afraid Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh* Kitten Lulu: it wuold be so easy Kitten Lulu: just a few regexes Aliasi Stonebender: as I keep saying Nico Toonie: copy & paste is not so bad.. don't be lazy Kitten Lulu: yep Akage Doctorow: Aliasi Stonebender: all the big features LL promises WILL be in SL before we all die. Oh, and they're investing in cyrogenics. Akage Doctorow: What we need is laptop within SL Kitten Lulu: lmao Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl Aliasi! Kitten Lulu: I am actually planning on doing my thesis on SL Shirokuro Sojourner: lol Kitten Lulu: Maybe I can volunteer to do some work Akage Doctorow: Kitten, that'd be great. WHat aspect Kitten Lulu: IM-to-jabber gateway would be cool Shirokuro Sojourner: yes wasnt web browsing supposed to be in 1.7...... Kitten Lulu: I have no idea Kitten Lulu: to answer Akage's question Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was, it was Gwyneth Llewelyn *cries* Shirokuro Sojourner: lol Merrow Majestic: sorry what are cyrogenetics? Gwyneth Llewelyn: ty! Gwyneth Llewelyn: cyogenics Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops cryogenics Aliasi Stonebender: turning people into meat-popsicles for furture unthawing and curing of whatever ails them. Akage Doctorow: Is that not freezing folks? Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Akage Kitten Lulu: so they can deliver it in your "lifetime" as promised Shirokuro Sojourner: yes, what aliasi said Kitten Lulu: and you continue to pay monthly fees too Aliasi Stonebender: see, the joke isn't funny when you have to EXPLAIN it. Aliasi Stonebender: Kitten Lulu: and if you have a basic account, they don't give you L$s because you didn't log in Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Merrow Majestic: ty, with the right spelling i would have known it *g* Kitten Lulu: mmh... I think we are over. Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww I'm sorry I was so late <u>Gwyneth Llewelyn</u>Kitten Lulu doesn't have any other point to present[/color] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, thank you for hosting, Kitten! Akage Doctorow: It feels like a good discussion, thax Kitten Shirokuro Sojourner: yes, thank you very much indeed Kitten Lulu: ty Nico Toonie: yes, ty Kitten Kitten Lulu: It was my firsrt event in SL ever Aliasi Stonebender: You did good. Kitten Lulu: The next ones will be better, I hope MichaelJohn Turner: thanks you all Shirokuro Sojourner: no, no, this one was great! Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully you'll host them regularly, kitten Aliasi Stonebender: also, I'm secretly pleased to see this build works just as well as hoped. Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft Aliasi heheKitten Lulu: yes Aliasi Stonebender: tho reminds me Aliasi Stonebender: Gwyn Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes? Kitten Lulu: but I think Jackal is secretly pissed that people didn't just sit on the ground as he hoped Aliasi Stonebender: have you gotten anything more about what events are getting run? Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah lol Jackal Ennui: *lol* Kitten Lulu: I tought about it Kitten Lulu: but my skirt is just too short Aliasi Stonebender: but it's ground! there's dirt on it! Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Aliasi ? if I'm not mistaken, tomorrow we'll have three events Aliasi Stonebender: well Gwyneth Llewelyn: And one "wrapping-up" event on Monday, held by Tom Aliasi Stonebender: It's just I'd like to type up some stuff to PUT in our schedule thingers Aliasi Stonebender: yes Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah! LOL Gwyneth Llewelyn: of course Moon Adamant: the building turned out great aliasi and jackal congrats Formatted and colorized with transcript. |
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Kitten Lulu
Registered User
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 114
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10-12-2005 03:54
I really like that flowchart thingamaroo. It's so easy to enjoy, and it has some thoughtlines I've been following for some time. And I'll be following this. It's a mindmap, I made it with a commercial program - but there are open source and free ones too, like: FreeMind |
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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10-12-2005 03:56
It's a mindmap, I made it with a commercial program - but there are open source and free ones too, like: FreeMind A MINDMAP! How utter. Thanx... I've seen them before, I know the term, but have not employed it in ages. My mind is awake to this open! Which commercial proggie did you use to make it, out of curiosity? This should really be a poster inworld... paste it in sandboxes and get people thinking... wow... shades of the prim wiki in Burning Life... _____________________
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Kitten Lulu
Registered User
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 114
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10-12-2005 07:39
I used MindManager
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