Second Life Forums Archive - Gender issues in SL

Gender issues in SL
Kitten Lulu Registered User Join date: 8 Jul 2005 Posts: 114	10-17-2005 00:24 Hello fellow Thinkers, Due to my belonging to the SL transengers group, I often get requests and questions about that path - both related to RL and SL. (No, I am not a transgender in RL; but I am related to one.) Unfortunately, I am not the best one to answer them. I am thinking about hosting two events on the subject: - a discussion group on gender issues and gender bending in SL, which could hopefully be a Thinker's group meeting. - a more specific discussion/consultancy event on transgenderism in RL. I need help for this one, I want one or more psycologists or people with a medical background and an open mind on gender issues to attend and answer questions. Would you help me with both? Yours purring, Kitten Lulu
Aliasi Stonebender Return of Catbread Join date: 30 Jan 2005 Posts: 1,858	10-17-2005 13:51 From: Kitten Lulu Hello fellow Thinkers, Due to my belonging to the SL transengers group, I often get requests and questions about that path - both related to RL and SL. (No, I am not a transgender in RL; but I am related to one.) Unfortunately, I am not the best one to answer them. I am thinking about hosting two events on the subject: - a discussion group on gender issues and gender bending in SL, which could hopefully be a Thinker's group meeting. - a more specific discussion/consultancy event on transgenderism in RL. I need help for this one, I want one or more psycologists or people with a medical background and an open mind on gender issues to attend and answer questions. Would you help me with both? Yours purring, Kitten Lulu I'd be interested in attending the first, or even the second. (I'm not either, but I know a few.) Not being a psychologist, I'm afraid I can't offer more than that. _____________________ Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?” Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
Nethermind Bliss Raving Xenophile Join date: 29 Dec 2004 Posts: 79	10-18-2005 12:32 Currently I am doing a paper on gender roles in SL, but this topic has always been really important to me. I would love to attend a meeting, as well. Thanks! _____________________ "It will not bother me in the hour of death that I have been 'had for a sucker' by any number of imposters; but it would be a torment to know that one had refused even one person in need." ~CS Lewis
Gwyneth Llewelyn Winking Loudmouth Join date: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 1,336	10-19-2005 01:06 Excellent topic for a Thinkers' event I guess it will have the sim crammed full with people Nethermind, your paper seems to be very promising and interesting! The most hilarious article I read so far on "gender issues in SL" has been posted by none other than Aimee Weber herself _____________________
Kitten Lulu Registered User Join date: 8 Jul 2005 Posts: 114	11-03-2005 00:05 I am going to host this event on saturday or sunday, stay tuned. I'll post to the events list soon
Gwyneth Llewelyn Winking Loudmouth Join date: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 1,336	11-03-2005 02:20 Excellent, Kitten — I really look forward to that _____________________
Kendra Bancroft Rhine Maiden Join date: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 5,813	11-03-2005 08:14 I'd be very interested in attending this meeting. _____________________ The Neualtenburg Projekt PHASE III Port Neualtenburg Visit my new Blog: The Steel Kitten Roars.
Kitten Lulu Registered User Join date: 8 Jul 2005 Posts: 114	Event scheduled 11-04-2005 17:37 Thinkers' discussion group on Transgenderism in SL Date: Sunday, November 6, 2005 Time: 1:00PM - 2:00PM (60 minutes) Location: Donders (103,115) Host: Kitten Lulu Category: Discussion Cover Charge? No Event description: A lot of people use avatars of the opposite sex or swing back and forth between both sexes. Let's gather together to discuss why we do it and how our online projections affect (or not) our offline reality. We'll also discuss about another event on Transgenderism in RL that I plan to host in the near future.
Nethermind Bliss Raving Xenophile Join date: 29 Dec 2004 Posts: 79	11-06-2005 10:14 Alas, I am out of town on a visit to family, and they're still running an ancient computer. I hope you guys will make transcripts available! Thanks, Nether _____________________ "It will not bother me in the hour of death that I have been 'had for a sucker' by any number of imposters; but it would be a torment to know that one had refused even one person in need." ~CS Lewis
Kitten Lulu Registered User Join date: 8 Jul 2005 Posts: 114	11-06-2005 16:50 Due to a clash with another event, I rescheduled the event for tomorrow November 7th at 2pm. Thinkers' discussion group on Transgenderism in SL Date: Monday, November 7, 2005 Time: 2:00PM - 3:00PM (60 minutes) Location: Donders (103,115) Host: Kitten Lulu Category: Discussion Cover Charge? No Event description: SecondLife gives us the ability to chose our sex online without regard to our RL one. Many people use that ability to explore how it would feel to be different. Why do we do it? Let's gather and discuss.
Nethermind Bliss Raving Xenophile Join date: 29 Dec 2004 Posts: 79	11-08-2005 10:01 Of course, if it's not an out of town obstacle, it's a natural disaster (sigh). Due to the tornado, I wasn't able to get into SL for that meeting. Any chance of a chat log so I could learn from others about this topic? Thanks! ~Nether _____________________ "It will not bother me in the hour of death that I have been 'had for a sucker' by any number of imposters; but it would be a torment to know that one had refused even one person in need." ~CS Lewis
Kitten Lulu Registered User Join date: 8 Jul 2005 Posts: 114	11-10-2005 01:22 Transgenderism in SL - Part 1 of 6 Kitten Lulu: Well, what about starting on today's theme? Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes :) Aliasi Stonebender: oh, yeah, that. Sean Gorham: yes! Traxx Hathor: I've come here ready to give my standard complaint. Sean Gorham arches an eyebrow. Traxx Hathor: The complaint about the repertoire of choices Kitten Lulu: Well, since I am a male who uses a female avatar. I am a bit curious about the driving forces behind that. Kitten Lulu: oh ya Traxx Hathor: That's a good thing Kitten Lulu: btw, I'd love more choices Traxx Hathor: you're learning Sean Gorham: i recall a debate in the forums about the whole slider system wrt gender. Kitten Lulu so want to be jabba the hut Traxx Hathor: more choices is what I want Traxx Hathor: choosing between male and female is kinda restrictive Traxx Hathor: that's two choices Traxx Hathor: Two is a small number Gwyneth Llewelyn: :) Traxx Hathor: There -- you've heard my standard complaint : P Sean Gorham: i can make a pretty androgynous looking av if i tweak the female sliders right. Moon Adamant: lol, well, i am happy with it - but i understand why it would be nice to have more choices :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: But yes, you know the official Linden position: "giving something familiar to users makes them more comfortable with the platform". Traxx Hathor: yup Moon Adamant: real avatar wings would be nice :P Aliasi Stonebender: That said, given how many avs are in existence, it's not a total restriction. more like training wheels, like Gwyn said. Kitten Lulu: I vote for body morphers like those in posing programs Hank Hoodoo: i think it's also more efficient rendering-wise, since it means there's only two basic structures our bodies are modified from Traxx Hathor: body morphers sounds great Traxx Hathor: fun new toolset Hank Hoodoo: but i would love to see that expand too Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that theoretically all avatars are female, "children of Ruth", as some used to call that "first avatar"... Aliasi Stonebender: (which isn't to say I don't agree. more options is more better.) Sean Gorham: yes, gwyn. Sean Gorham: every time you teleport in or log in. Kitten Lulu: the basic UVmap is the same for both, so it's just a single structure Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, just like biology ;) Hank Hoodoo: yep Traxx Hathor: well don't you find that it's restrictive for people to look at you as female all the time? Aliasi Stonebender: technically, the model has both sets of sliders, even - in Poser, anyway. Kitten Lulu: Not all the times, I swtich freely Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway — the female avatars are much cuter :) Moon Adamant: hmmm... no, traxx :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: (no offense meant, Traxx ;) ) Traxx Hathor: heh Kitten Lulu: but I am mostly a female or an hermaphrodite Kitten Lulu: right Gwy :P Traxx Hathor: I want to be a swamp monster : ( Aliasi Stonebender: I should put on my energy being avatar to protest your puny fleshly existences. Traxx Hathor: yah Moon Adamant: and i have male avatars as well - is not just comfy to wear them Traxx Hathor: energy being sounds great Sean Gorham: i switch back and forth depending on ... well, nothing in particular. whim i guess. Kitten Lulu: good point, Moon, I don't feel particularly comfy with my male AV Traxx Hathor: I find Akira's female form comfortable enough, but boring Traxx Hathor: and I really don't want people to start making the boring assumptions about the social stuff Kitten Lulu: Akira? Hank Hoodoo: i would feel weird in a female av, though i've never tried "seriously" Traxx Hathor: that's my alt Traxx Hathor: He's in Thinkers Kitten Lulu: oh Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm, perhaps I have a silly question, but which is similar — as a kid, given the choice of getting a female puppet or a male puppet, which one would you take? ;) Moon Adamant: lulu: i notice that when i am wearing the male avs i don't know how to act, lol Traxx Hathor: LEGO Kitten Lulu: I tought it was the Akira from animes :P Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah Traxx — that's an excellent answer :) Traxx Hathor: he's named after that Moon Adamant: loll traxx :) Traxx Hathor: : ) Kitten Lulu: I have no idea, Gwy. Sean Gorham: ali - is that your way of answering the debate? :) Traxx Hathor: The swamp monster would be more interesting as a puppet Traxx Hathor: and easier to make too Traxx Hathor: all filaments Aliasi Stonebender: it's oen way. Aliasi Stonebender: I've got a bundle! Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Kitten — the companies putting puppets into the market sell far more female puppets Traxx Hathor: and nobody knows how swamp monsters think so no social assumptions : ) Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, lol Kitten Lulu: maybe because puppets are a mostly-female product Kitten Lulu: what about puppets+guns Traxx Hathor: they're somewhat like dolls Aliasi Stonebender: heh, Gwyn, what you said is kind of funny, I recall that - in humans, anyway, maleness is almost like a series of after-market addons. ;) Gwyneth Llewelyn: also, hmm.... why are men's magazines full of women — but so are women's magazines? ;) Moon Adamant: hmmm, yes, i agree kitten Traxx Hathor: women are more decorative Moon Adamant: but i see where you're getting at gwyn, lol Hank Hoodoo: "because women are hott" (not my real answer) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon, you know me for years, hehe Kitten Lulu: Because our society's aestetics has a stronger focus on females, that's true Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Hank Sean Gorham: but they are, hank! but guys can be, too. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kitten, yes. Sean Gorham: just in different ways. Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's it. Kitten Lulu: try SL in Ancient Greece and you'll have a different answer Traxx Hathor: guys are more restricted about ornamentation Hank Hoodoo: i know... i basically agree with kitten Aliasi Stonebender: that's true. We might all be guys if this was ancient Greece. And, y'know, we still had Second Life..... OH SNAP Sean Gorham: lol Gwyneth Llewelyn: Precisely, Kitten, I also agree. Aliasi Stonebender gglares at Kitten Aliasi Stonebender: you can't tell, but I AM glaring. Moon Adamant: lol Hank Hoodoo: the same question maybe?: why is it so damn hard to find good men's clothes in SL? Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Hank. Sean Gorham: yes, your particles look a little extra red, ali :P Kitten Lulu: less market Traxx Hathor: men's clothes are more boring to make? Sean Gorham: because designers don't perceive as profitable a market? Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's just not fun to make men's clothes ;) (I know, I've tried) Kitten Lulu: How many times a day do you change clothes, Hank? Kitten Lulu: I do itt mmmh.... around 50-60 times per day Moon Adamant: hmmmm, i tend to agree with traxx there Sean Gorham: and yet... there was an EXCELLENT men's design posted to the forums today! Hank Hoodoo: more than most men, but less than most women... heh jamie Martin: because some of us were happy with the white t-shirt and jeans look Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow Kitten, lol Sean Gorham: /invalid_link.html Moon Adamant: i mean, all male avatars here i know complain about teh same Traxx Hathor: I wear the same thing for weeks Sean Gorham: check that out. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I'm going to read that!! Traxx Hathor: and people give me new clothes Moon Adamant: so... there is a market Traxx Hathor: yes there's a market for good suits Sean Gorham: i think the market is there, designers just don't THINK there is. Kitten Lulu: shameless plug my husband is going to sell men clothes in our new shop in Belmondo Aliasi Stonebender: yeah, we're actually lagging behind RL there. Traxx Hathor: what kind, Kitten? Kitten Lulu: shrug Traxx Hathor: there's my alt Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just read that forum post — interesting marketing approach: "ladies, get your male friend to buy this" Moon Adamant: well,,, i do clothes once in a while - always do them for moon, never for my male avs (and god knows they need it, lol) Kitten Lulu: I have no idea Sean Gorham: i probably will be getting that outfit for my male avs. Traxx Hathor: sounds like I should check that out Traxx Hathor: Since I work as an architect on sims with retailers they tend to give me um... fancy... outfits Moon Adamant: i think one has more references for female clothing, but really can't say Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is certainly true for RL as well :D Moon Adamant: more good quality images to work from, that's a fact Hank Hoodoo: yes, certainly Sean Gorham: to me, men's clothing, at least in the west, seems more focused on function than fashion. Aliasi Stonebender: 'course, that's another factor in SL, kind of hard to just find "normal" outfits... but than, as Traxx said... who wants to be normal? ;) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, good point :) Sean Gorham: first you have to define normal. Moon Adamant: indeed :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: average? Traxx Hathor: trying to convert Akira to his female form Gwyneth Llewelyn: "standrad"? Kitten Lulu: A friend of mine, who is going to ask for research funds to use SL, had to look for days before finding something suitable to the presentation to NCSA Sean Gorham: actually, i'll sort of phrase it like traxx did... "why can't i buy a decent business suit in SL?" :P Aliasi Stonebender: well, average would be a better word. Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean in SL, Kitten? Kitten Lulu: yes Traxx Hathor: you can buy fancy suits for pimps : P Sean Gorham: ick! Sean Gorham: definitely NOT what i meant. :P Moon Adamant: lol traxx - sadly, it is true :) Hank Hoodoo: yeah, those textures never look good on me Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I think that's normal — for my first job interview in SL, I even had a designer do me an unique business suit ;) Kitten Lulu: job interview in SL? Gwyneth Llewelyn: ell, no complains here, lol Aliasi Stonebender: you can find all kinds of clubbing clothes, but rather hard to just find a plain ol' dress. Not so much now, since there's a few designers that specialize in it. Moon Adamant: try PD - has a decent set of pants, vest and tie :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm yes, Kitten Hank Hoodoo: barnesworth has some good stuff for guys too, for what it's worth Traxx Hathor: yup, but it's all casual Gwyneth Llewelyn takes notes, lol Moon Adamant: but then.... hmmm, in a way is a bit hard to find clothes that match your 'idea' specifically, or so i find Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... I would just love to do a Fashion Magazine for SL, hehe Traxx Hathor: good idea Hank Hoodoo: has no one done that yet? Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, ideas are easy, Traxx — implementing them, well Kitten Lulu: Back to the topic, I am not so sure people use avatars of the other sex because they can't find suitable clothes for their own. Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Hank, and I really don't know why Traxx Hathor: you could make a substantial component of it on the forums Traxx Hathor: that would pull in readership Hank Hoodoo: no, kitten, i think it's a symptom rather than a cause Traxx Hathor: for the in-world component Traxx Hathor: or website component Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I think it's inter-related to a certain point, Kitten Gwyneth Llewelyn: and yes, Traxx, that would be my idea ;) Just imagine how easy it would be to get sponsors for advertising, lol Traxx Hathor: you could actually CHARGE for advertising Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway... Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL has been described once as "the world of the beautiful people" Moon Adamant: i thibk there is a lot of curiosity in the choice to use an av of the opposite gender Gwyneth Llewelyn: (of course, that was before they took a look at the Lindens, lol) Traxx Hathor: heh Moon Adamant: lol Sean Gorham: sure. you'll always have some amount of self-idealization here. Aliasi Stonebender: ugly is the new beautiful. Gwyneth Llewelyn: so, yes, since I'd say that "beauty" is more connected to female forms Kitten Lulu: Indeed, Moon. Hank Hoodoo: the lindens are not bad looking for computer programmers Gwyneth Llewelyn: that would be one reason.- Traxx Hathor: Well in combat games the use of another gender is routine Kitten Lulu: I saw a few good looking Lindens Moon Adamant: hmmmm Sean Gorham: but the perception isn't quite the same, traxx. Aliasi Stonebender: yes, the "if I have to look at a butt all day, it'll be a CUTE one" Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe I was being naughty, Kitten :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm, Aliasi Traxx Hathor: In Diablo II it became almost mandatory Kitten Lulu: probably new hires before they were told how a Linden should appear... business-like Moon Adamant: maybe the social charactherisitic of slmakes people get female avs? Hank Hoodoo: you hear over and over again that people are nicer to you in WoW if you're female Hank Hoodoo: that's probably true in SL too to some extent Traxx Hathor: The devs made the cute female classes more powerful Sean Gorham: it's not just WoW, it's any MMO. Gwyneth Llewelyn: What osocial characteristics, Moon? Going to clubs, etc? Gwyneth Llewelyn: *social Moon Adamant: meaning - what you do most is socialize Moon Adamant: uh, i meant talking Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, yes...
Kitten Lulu Registered User Join date: 8 Jul 2005 Posts: 114	11-10-2005 01:24 Transgenderism in SL - Part 2 of 6 Aliasi Stonebender: I sort of divide it up into multiple reasons, myself. Gwyneth Llewelyn: That makes sense, yes. Kitten Lulu: I thnk a part of the people using female avatars do it for curiousity Kitten Lulu: or to explore sexuality Traxx Hathor: You're always running the risk that people are going to misinterpret Traxx Hathor: The forums have complaints Traxx Hathor: about deception Kitten Lulu: Personally, I do it because an hermaphrodite, not a female, fits more my sexuality and mindset Gwyneth Llewelyn: True. Moon Adamant: well, i surely did my male avs out of curiosity - how would be a male moon? Hank Hoodoo: i think the bulk of it is non-sexual, especially in non-SL MMO's Aliasi Stonebender: one is to escape whatever harassment your natural gender, one is exploration and curiosity. And, of course, you have actual transgendered people who ARE playing what they feel is their proper gender. And that's nto exhaustive, that's just first to mind Kitten Lulu: Good list, Aliasi Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm Sean Gorham: i do it because it's something i can't do in RL. why limit myself here, i figure? Moon Adamant: indeed, well put aliasi :) Traxx Hathor: Yes we really need to distinguish between people who are naturally transgendered and people who are just having fun Kitten Lulu: I am having fun Aliasi Stonebender: Also related, I supopse, might be those people who naturally feel sort of gender-neutral asexual, but that's kind of a variety of transgenderism, I suppose. Traxx Hathor: me too as you can see : P Gwyneth Llewelyn: :) Kitten Lulu: oh Kitten Lulu: well, so I am transgender? do Kitten Lulu: do Kitten Lulu: doh Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just because you're having fun? Hmm Aliasi Stonebender: Just spinnign wheels and blowing wind, Kitten. Aliasi Stonebender: You are what you are. :) Kitten Lulu: To be honest, it's something I tought about Traxx Hathor: by having fun I mean it's just taking advantage of the toolset Traxx Hathor: not based on RL Kitten Lulu: IF it weren't so painful/hard/difficult in RL, if it were as easy as SL to switch (note switch back and forth multiple times), I'd probably do it in RL too Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, I don't get that — transgenderism is certainly not limited to "having fun" :) Aliasi Stonebender: In my case, I just like being a shapeshift, tho I'm normal Ali most of the time. I've got all kinds. Even a couple of male avs, tho mostly "costumes". Traxx Hathor: Gwyn I'm trying to separate the casual shape shifters from people who are naturally transgendered in RL Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Traxx Hathor: Having met a couple, I'd say it's a world of difference Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right! Kitten Lulu: I know a few transgendered people here Kitten Lulu: they are actually not shapeshifters Sean Gorham: can't that be something of a spectrum as well? Hank Hoodoo: this is a hard topic because of the huge variety of ways people associate their RL and SL avatars Kitten Lulu: they tend to maintain a stable shape and look Gwyneth Llewelyn: It certainly is, Sean. Traxx Hathor: It's an interesting topic Moon Adamant: indeed it is Aliasi Stonebender: I think most of us do. And I'd like to clarify - I wasn't IDing myself as transgender. I just like to change bodies like I'd change clothes. :) Kitten Lulu: Oh yes Sean Gorham: i mean, i'm very comfortable with who and what i am in RL. here i can safely explore other facets of my personality and sexuality in whatever amount they may exist. Traxx Hathor: My point is that being naturally transgendered is apparently a psychologically painful state. Kitten Lulu: Bodies are just another way to communicate here IMHO Sean Gorham: would i do this in RL? nope! i don't feel the need, and it would be too difficult to do so anyway. Aliasi Stonebender: certainly so, Traxx. Moon Adamant: agree, kitten Traxx Hathor: and the rest of us are seeing gender shifting as a fun thing Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Kitten. Indeed it is. Traxx Hathor: an expressive thing Patroklus Murakami: aplogies for being late tries to sit down surreptitously Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Traxx — self-expression as well. Gwyneth Llewelyn: After all, hmm, it's just textures ;) Traxx Hathor: I agree with the sentiments expressed by several people here that there is a spectrum Aliasi Stonebender: don't see why it can't necessarily be both. One may be dissatisfied with one's real condition, or simply wish to experiment - the world's big enough for both. Hank Hoodoo: but it's not just textures for a lot of people Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, we do react differently to pixels as well. And I find that amusing :) Sean Gorham: i find it perfectly natural. Moon Adamant: hmmm, such as you express yourself by your pick of clothing IRL - the same thing here, but in another magnitude Traxx Hathor: I like the spectrum model myself Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course not, hank — as said, we react differently to pixels. Aliasi Stonebender: indeed. like how I insist on hiding when changing clothes in SL? ;) Traxx Hathor: heh Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Aliasi, I find that so funny :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry. blushes Sean Gorham: despite us being someone ahead of most people when it comes to exploring virtuality, a lot of us are still hardwired to think that appearance is a fixed thing, and to interact with things how we see them. Moon Adamant: been there, aliasi, lol Aliasi Stonebender: No, no. I know it's silly. Sean Gorham: somewhat* Moon Adamant: uh, not silly at all, aliasi Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I do my changes when nobody sees me — that's true. Sean Gorham: so when how we appear is at odds with how we are... conflict. Traxx Hathor: What I find silly is the set of hardwired social expectations that accompany each gender Moon Adamant: your avatar is your own thing and yourself - it has levels of intimacy as well Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sean — I agree completely Sean Gorham: it's silly, traxx, but it's how many people are right now. it's what we grew up with, what we were taught to expect. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, Traxx, silly yes, fascinating though :) Aliasi Stonebender: Well Moon, I feel the nudity taboo is a bit goofy in RL, too... but I'm too canalized against it to tak eup being a nudist. Sean Gorham: and it's something that will take a LONG time to change. Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Aliasi :) Hank Hoodoo: i think SL undermines those expectations pretty well inadvertently, since so many people do cross genders so frequently Sean Gorham: imagine for a moment that we could change our gender and appearance as easily in RL as we can in SL. Traxx Hathor: If we had design-your-own genders we could break free from the social stuff Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually... I'm always expecting more nudity in SL. Sean Gorham: can you imagine the upheaval in society that would cause? Hank Hoodoo: imagine if cory linden were treated differently when he was a girl Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the truth is, it never "happens". Moon Adamant: hmmm, ali - but nudity is also a hmm indicator of how close you are to people Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sean: very interesting thought ;) Kitten Lulu: Oh, I tought Cory was a female name :P Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd guess fashion would be dead overnight, LOL Traxx Hathor: It's both Sean Gorham: it can be both, although some will see it more as one or the other gender. Aliasi Stonebender: Well Sean, we do have the possibility, what with genetic engineering and all that. I expect to see such things before I die. (I'm also hoping that'll be awhile off. ;) Moon Adamant: no, gwyn - everyone would buy even more stuff :) Sean Gorham: i have no plans to die. :P Aliasi Stonebender: Well, Gwyn, not so. Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Moon, perhaps, perhaps :) Kitten Lulu: Sean me too Aliasi Stonebender: A society without a nudity taboo would certainly have provisions for clothing as decoration, would it not? Sean Gorham: sure. Gwyneth Llewelyn: probably. Kitten Lulu: I want to get a RL avatar like aliasi's pure energy one Moon Adamant: uh, i'll only die if what happens next is like sl, lol Aliasi Stonebender: in a way, we're there now in SL - not like you need to bundle up against the cold. Sean Gorham: right. Sean Gorham: why don't we all just go around as box prims, hm? Sean Gorham: because that's BORING. :D Kitten Lulu: it would, I have been a nudist, you see a lot of people going around with fancy things. Traxx Hathor: no kidding! Aliasi Stonebender: I dunno Kitten Lulu: hats, etc., during parties in nudist campings Gwyneth Llewelyn: "fancy things", hmm Gwyneth Llewelyn has no imagination :) Traxx Hathor: But I find the styles somewhat boring too. Aliasi Stonebender: I think box prims are kinda cool. jamie Martin: heh Sean Gorham laughs. Moon Adamant: well, kitten - nudity can also be a bit a bit boring, if excessive and generalized :) Traxx Hathor: SL has some large distinct stylistic categories Traxx Hathor: like goth and furry and hottie-woman Sean Gorham: anybody can get naked. getting creatively unclothed, that takes WORK! Kitten Lulu: oh, Moon, I meant it in RL Gwyneth Llewelyn: and plain boring :) lol Traxx, couldn't resist ;) Aliasi Stonebender: indeed, sean! Moon Adamant: i meant RL as well :) Traxx Hathor: heh Kitten Lulu: ok Moon Adamant: lol Sean, exactly :) Kitten Lulu: I tought you were referring to Gwy's comment on more nudity in SL Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes. Sean Gorham: which is true for appearance as well. anybody in SL can be "ugly" - just set all your sliders to 100. but to get CREATIVELY ugly... that takes effort! Moon Adamant: no, i wasn't - i guess no more nudity here because of that too, though Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was in line with aliasi's comment. Though we could all be in the nude here (it's Mature after all) why don't MOST of us do that? Kitten Lulu gets creatively ugly :P Aliasi Stonebender: yeah, one naked person can be an unusual occurance. 50 naked people just means they save a lot on tailoring. :P Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say, social conditioning, mostly. Traxx Hathor: lol Aliasi Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Kitten :) Moon Adamant: hmmm, nudity is one of those things to be cherished, lol Aliasi Stonebender: actually, that's kind of interesting. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, because our society thinks so. Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I really like your avatar, Aliasi :) Moon Adamant: hmmm, maybe Moon Adamant: in my pov, i even find stacks of people in bikini or trunks in the beach boring Aliasi Stonebender: like, one of my friends has trouble wearing anythign but jeans and t-shirt in SL. Hank Hoodoo: i've heard men who work at strip clubs lose all interest in naked women Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Moon :) But I tend to agree, ys. Sean Gorham: sure. you get desensitized to it. Patroklus Murakami: is there anything more unerotic than nudism? Gwyneth Llewelyn: I've heard women who work at strip clubs lose all interest in men ;) ... but that's an urban legend ;) Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, Pat. jamie Martin: nudism can be very erotic Moon Adamant: lol gwyn :) Aliasi Stonebender: Your parents having sex. Isnt' that kind of the big mood-killer for everyone? ;P Sean Gorham: GAH! Hank Hoodoo: heh gwyn Patroklus Murakami: ew Traxx Hathor: ugh jamie Martin: not really no Sean Gorham curls into a ball Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh Aliasi Moon Adamant: your grandparents... even worse :) jamie Martin: more power to my mom Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh my, Moon. Gwyneth Llewelyn shakes head Kitten Lulu: why con't they? Kitten Lulu: can't they? Gwyneth Llewelyn: social prejudice? Gwyneth Llewelyn shrugs Traxx Hathor: There are people we just don't like thinking of in sexual terms Aliasi Stonebender: yes, I'm not saying it's anythign wrong, just another of those social conditioning bits. Traxx Hathor: For me it's my mom Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, yes, Traxx. Traxx Hathor: and anybody like my mom Aliasi Stonebender: more generalized, elderly people in general havign sex seems to be a big "ew" to people. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, in a way, yes — projection. Traxx Hathor: elderly doesn't bother me Kitten Lulu: it may not be sexually appealing Traxx Hathor: but momlike bothers me Kitten Lulu: I mean visually Kitten Lulu: but I don't mind knowing elderly people have sex Traxx Hathor: it's fine Kitten Lulu: actually I think I had cyber sex with a 60-something here in SL :P Aliasi Stonebender: hey, you know they're experienced that way! Moon Adamant: well, here at least is still abit of a taboo thing Gwyneth Llewelyn: you "think", lol — you either had cybersex or you didn't have it ;) hehe Aliasi Stonebender grins. Sean Gorham: oh, now there's where the whole gender thing gets REALLY messy. Kitten Lulu: We had cybersex, she said she was 60 Sean Gorham: it reminds me of the story where two supposed women online meet in RL, and they're both really guys. Kitten Lulu: I didn't go in UK to check it Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know, Kitten, I was being mean :) Kitten Lulu: oh, btw, we were both really guys Traxx Hathor: Sean that really happened Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh... 60... UK.... that reminds me of someone I know! Sean Gorham: oh, i'm sure it had, traxx. Patroklus Murakami: i think there's a lot of fun to be had with gender role reversal in sexual encounters Kitten Lulu: my first and only time cybering as a pure male :P Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, wrong gender, then, hmm Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, oops
Kitten Lulu Registered User Join date: 8 Jul 2005 Posts: 114	11-10-2005 01:26 Transgenderism in SL - Part 3 of 6 Sean Gorham: there can be, patroklus, but you can run into problems of disclosure. Gwyneth Llewelyn: I shouldn't be that prejudiced ;) Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll remove my comment. Patroklus Murakami: do u mean in RL or SL? Sean Gorham: yes. Moon Adamant: hmmmm, i am sure everyone here knows the risk of any other not being the gender they appear Sean Gorham: it's just easier to hide the truth online. Aliasi Stonebender: well, it's something I think we've actually discussed before. Not in Thinker's perhaps... one of Selaras Partridge's meetings, perhaps? Moon Adamant: selara's, yes aliasi Gwyneth Llewelyn: What i actually meant was that I know a 60-year-old female from the UK in SL who very likely had several, uh, close encounters with several younger people ;) Sean Gorham: ah Sean Gorham: nothing wrong with that, so long as everybody's above-board about it. Traxx Hathor: But people aren't Hank Hoodoo: people so want to believe... that's as old as the internet Sean Gorham: right, and that's where the problems start. jamie Martin: why be above board? Is it anyone's business? Gwyneth Llewelyn: Inded, Hank. Aliasi Stonebender: And my answer remains the same; nothing wrong with it unless you're taking it to Rl, then some honesty is best. Traxx Hathor: At least not according to the complaints I've read on the forums Sean Gorham: that depends on the people involved, jamie. it's not an easy question. Moon Adamant: and people want to believe IRL too that the other is not a terminal junkie, or a gambler, oretc Patroklus Murakami: i'd agree with aliasi Traxx Hathor: Some of those posts seemed to be from people who were incredibly angry Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm Moon Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Traxx, that's as old as the Internet as well. jamie Martin: people are willfully blind Sean Gorham: me, i'm open about it because in my experience it's avoided problems down the road. but i'm not everybody. Traxx Hathor: Well I heard of one case where it was RL deception too Hank Hoodoo: yeah... hmm... is being the wrong gender a different category of complaint about a sig. other than, say, being a lousy kisser? Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well — in a sense, I can't blame them, I mean, for them, all of this is true. So, naturally, they get angry. Traxx Hathor: The complaints seemed focussed on the concept of deception Traxx Hathor: Like the poster felt used jamie Martin: everything in SL is deception Gwyneth Llewelyn: everything in RL is deception as well, hehe Sean Gorham: but you see this in RL also. Traxx Hathor: I'm PG so it's not something I have experience with Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I'm really not such a pessimist... Moon Adamant: well, lying is not decent of course - but do people really ask? Gwyneth Llewelyn is PG as well — safer that way ;) Traxx Hathor: : ) Kitten Lulu: rarely tey ask Patroklus Murakami: i think jamie makes a valid point, our avs are a form of misrepresentation Hank Hoodoo: is it worse to not tell someone you're the other gender in SL than it is to tell them you're the wrong age, or a different weight, or have a different color hair? Sean Gorham: no doubt there are many cases of people who've had relationships with TG folks (both pre- and post-op) who, upon finding this out, felt deceived. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Patroklus. Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, Sean. Aliasi Stonebender: Ditto here, but then, I don't expect anyone to physically match what I see; I'm interested in their minds. Sean Gorham: and in that sense it's exactly like what you see here. Traxx Hathor: Good point, Aliasi Gwyneth Llewelyn: But you're wise, Aliasi Moon Adamant: oh patroklus - i mean, does anyone believe i have 2.05 m in RL and a pair of wings? of course they're constructs Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and experienced in Internet-based relationships. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Many aren't, and thus I understand their "anger". Aliasi Stonebender: Only wise liek Socrates, Gwyn. I know I'm a fool. ;) Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Aliasi — well yes, you know what I meant :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Internet-wise :) Aliasi Stonebender: No, but wouldn't it be great? :D Aliasi Stonebender: (to Moon) Moon Adamant: it would! :) Sean Gorham: moon - it's not always that obvious. Gwyneth Llewelyn: :) Moon Adamant: of course sean Sean Gorham: and therein lies the problem, i feel. Aliasi Stonebender: and I'm pretty sure I'm not a cheetah. I do have auburn hair tho, so you can't get me on THAT! Traxx Hathor: heh Moon Adamant: but shouldn't you assume all of us are constructs to keep in the safe? Sean Gorham: heh. Sean Gorham: we're not constructs. we're people. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon — but as I said, that requires an amount of experience with Internet-based relationships. Traxx Hathor: I make a distinction on the constructs Aliasi Stonebender: that's a point I make over and over again in the forums. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Assume nothing. Moon Adamant: and also hmmm - avs are constructs - but people do tend to be more open here and express their inner selfs more, so there's a paradox Traxx Hathor: There are avatars that the wearer has constructed jamie Martin: gwyneth: I think it just requires people to remove the blinders Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's the First Law :) Traxx Hathor: and there are purchased avatars Traxx Hathor: those are very different Aliasi Stonebender: no matter what mask you wear, what role you play, at some point the thoughts in one person's skull are influencing the thoughts in another person's skull. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm Jamie — that is not so easy, but I agree that you're right. jamie Martin: people want to believe in the illusions Sean Gorham: we're human beings. we're visual people. like it or not, a lot of how we perceive people is tied up in their appearance. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Explain that bit about "purchased avatars", Traxx... jamie Martin: Whether the illusions are words or appearance Moon Adamant: so... you express your inner self to someone - maybe like you never did before to anyone else - and then the other person goes away because you're not the right gender Aliasi Stonebender: yes, jamie, but is the fault in the illusionist or them that fall for the illusion? Traxx Hathor: If the person made the avatar it is far more expressive Aliasi Stonebender: (or is there even a fault?) Traxx Hathor: But an annoying person can purchase a sweet-looking avatar Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh jamie Martin: I'd say the fault is in those who buy the illusion when it's 100% clear that the world is all illusion Aliasi Stonebender: it's all maya, baybee! Traxx Hathor: I don't worry about fault Gwyneth Llewelyn thinks jamie is a philosopher — he's so right :) Traxx Hathor: But it's interesting to read the complaints Sean Gorham: if SL is all illusion, does that make this discussion invalid? Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not at all, Sean, since we react to illusion. Traxx Hathor: You could argue that the words are valid Traxx Hathor: as opposed to the pixel arrangements Sean Gorham: right. but at the same time we're supposed to NOT react to the illusion. Sean Gorham: it can't be both ways. jamie Martin: I didn't say you can't react Moon Adamant: well, certainly those feelings are felt by the people feeling them as real Gwyneth Llewelyn: But you can — it just needs an effort. jamie Martin: Just you have to not expect the movie screen to be real Traxx Hathor: Sean I want to find out whether the person designed that pixel arrangement BEFORE I react Gwyneth Llewelyn: And experience, of course. Gwyneth Llewelyn: traxx, how would you go about that? Traxx Hathor: I once saw a gem of a building Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm Sean Gorham: no part of the av i'm wearing now was created by me. i just put all the pieces together. Traxx Hathor: There's an architectural parallel in SL Traxx Hathor: not sure jamie Martin: It's like all the celebrity romance rumors that pop up around movie releases. Why would that really matter, except people still want to believe the movie romance is real romance Traxx Hathor: and wanted to find out if the builder had copied the design from RL Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Aliasi Stonebender: although I think there's a difference between "bought some hair" and buying "precise celebrity appearance". Gwyneth Llewelyn: "suspension of disbelief", jamie. Traxx Hathor: It's a matter of wondering who should get the credit for the design jamie Martin: yes, just too much of it :) Traxx Hathor: heh Moon Adamant: hmm traxx - you could consider it adaptative work Sean Gorham is quite jealous of ali atm Traxx Hathor: Park it on the soapbox! Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Sean :) jamie Martin: optimus wasn't hard core enough :( Aliasi Stonebender: hey, I'd vote optimus for president. Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Traxx... hmm... let me see if I got this right. In a sense, you'd say you'd frown upon someone who didn't design their own av? Traxx Hathor: no not frown Traxx Hathor: I personally want to know Traxx Hathor: And would like to know before reacting Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh. Moon Adamant: hmmmm Kitten Lulu: Would it be different for clothes? Traxx Hathor: whether that configuration of pixels is due to the person wearing it or not Gwyneth Llewelyn: But since we have no tools, you can only take their word right now... Traxx Hathor: clothes are expected to be purchased I guess Moon Adamant: but creative work can be assembling work as well Traxx Hathor: yes like a collage Hank Hoodoo: the clothes metaphor makes a difference to me definitely Sean Gorham: i misspoke earlier - the only part of this av that's original is the shape. i bought everything else. does that somehow lessen its inherent value? Hank Hoodoo: i feel it's much weirder to be changing my facial features than my clothes Gwyneth Llewelyn: So avatars are in a sense more than clothes. Aliasi Stonebender: <- buys avatar components 'cause can't skin worth diddly, but my av is /mine/. Hank Hoodoo: yes gwyn, though there's no reason they should be Traxx Hathor: Sean I mean to show what the person who wears it is like Traxx Hathor: If you design your own avatar that is more self-expressive Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, Hank — following Traxx's ideas, I'd say that yes, there is a reason! Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see your point, Traxx. Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I'd say, most don't. Kitten Lulu: Someone who buys an avatar had mad a conscious decision, the crativity is expressed thru their choice. I'd react in the same way to both. Traxx Hathor: agreed jamie Martin: your clothes can express your personality, or a statement, in RL, if you want them to Moon Adamant: hmm, can't agree with you there traxx Moon Adamant: you can assemble one 'whole' Sean Gorham: this av smokes a cigar. i'd never smoke irl - in fact, i'm pretty anti-smoking irl. but here it hurts nobody. does that reflect negatively on my personality in some way? Moon Adamant: and make it true Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, it was important to me as well (getting Gwyn's shape to become my own work), and this made me very reluctant to buy some hair, LOL Moon Adamant: and not be able to do it on your own Aliasi Stonebender: yes, I know many avs that are assemblages of bought partas, but the sum is unique. Traxx Hathor: Moon I'd call that analogous to making a collage -- and it's certainly what I do. Hank Hoodoo: for a long time i didn't buy many clothes because i wanted to make everything myself Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... of course, iRL I also get people to do my hair, so I guess that's all right ;) Aliasi Stonebender: including me, fo rthat matter. only part of my regular av that's mine is the tatoo, when I wear it. :P Hank Hoodoo: but i realized other people are way better at photoshop than me :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Hank Gwyneth Llewelyn: I gave up on clothes design for that reason :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: and my alt is just spare parts as well, LOL Traxx Hathor: Some day I will try designing avatars Traxx Hathor: But this collage will do until then Hank Hoodoo: i make bits and pieces myself but a lot of it is self-expression through consumerism, just like in good ol' capitalist RL Moon Adamant: hmmmmm Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I found that an interesting point — avatars being the ultimate in self-expression Traxx Hathor: well not the ultimate Traxx Hathor: the ultimate would be to invent a new persona Gwyneth Llewelyn: :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, that's only for a few! Moon Adamant: ah, now, could one do that, i ask? Traxx Hathor: it would be like role-playing Hank Hoodoo: i think plenty of SL'ers have Traxx Hathor: I tried it a couple of times Traxx Hathor: and it never worked Moon Adamant: hmmm, i mean... really really? Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like the old saying goes... "you can fool some people a lot of the time, or all people some of the time, but not all the people all the time" ;) Traxx Hathor: the Evil Purple Gorilla Moon Adamant: lol Patroklus Murakami: traxx, what do u mean by a new persona? Aliasi Stonebender: plenty have. in a sense, I'm there, but I confine my roleplayign to actual roleplaying games, whether I run then in RL, SL, or IRC. Traxx Hathor: I mean a totally consistent character Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, wow Traxx Hathor: Like in a work of fiction Gwyneth Llewelyn: That requires some pretty good acting. Hank Hoodoo: like andy kaufman and that lounge singer whose name i forget Moon Adamant: from my experience, even the new things i have found about me in sl weren't new things at all - had been there all teh time Gwyneth Llewelyn: And even actors only fool all people some of the time :) Hank Hoodoo: tony clifton Aliasi Stonebender: Tony Clifton.
Kitten Lulu Registered User Join date: 8 Jul 2005 Posts: 114	11-10-2005 01:28 Transgenderism in SL - Part 4 of 6 Traxx Hathor: I wouldn't expect it to be done to fool people though Moon Adamant: but i am willing to assume that may be my fault, lol Traxx Hathor: It's hard so I'd expect friends to know and help Gwyneth Llewelyn: "fool" in the sense of "convincing" them it's a real persona. Traxx Hathor: I think of it as an artwork Gwyneth Llewelyn: Acting is art... Aliasi Stonebender: there's a variety there. couple of friends of mine RP consistent Victorian personas in SL. Kitten Lulu: mmmh, it could be interesting to try a different "attitude" to see how it works Traxx Hathor: but the Evil Purple Gorilla didn't work out at all Kitten Lulu: and then apply it in RL if it gives better results Patroklus Murakami: lol Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's very hard, Kitten. Traxx Hathor: It's more than attitude I think Traxx Hathor: You'd have to work out the complete set of motivations Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I tried to act the 18-year silly blonde for about 2 days in SL, then I gave up ;) Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol jamie Martin: it's not that tough :) Traxx Hathor: heh Moon Adamant: lol gwyn Aliasi Stonebender: If you want to do it seriously, yex, Traxx. Kitten Lulu: too much competition, Gwy :P? Traxx Hathor: If you want to do a good job Gwyneth Llewelyn: You laugh now, Moon, but I really tried :) Sean Gorham: except maybe for my typing, i act pretty much the same no matter what av i'm wearing. they're all just different extensions of my RL self in one way or another. Traxx Hathor: All I do with this Traxx character is try to make him an easy-going type Moon Adamant: well, you're blonde.... but not 18 ;) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Kitten — I think it was something I was never good at :) (not even when I was 18, lol) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, more like 36 now ;) Hank Hoodoo: my character is me, but inevitably altered by the environment Gwyneth Llewelyn: And a VERY DARK blonde, Moon ;) Moon Adamant: that's what you think :P Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, pfft Gwyneth Llewelyn: hank — that makes rather a lot more sense to me. Sean Gorham: gwyn is most definitely not blonde. Moon Adamant: oh... brb Gwyneth Llewelyn: The environment changes us, definitely. Sean Gorham: us redheads have to stick together... well, ok, maybe not me atm. :P Hank Hoodoo: yes - i'm less shy, for one thing Gwyneth Llewelyn: It has to. We're always changed by the environment, and SL has to change us. Traxx Hathor: Adaptivity is a survival trait Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Sean ;) Hank Hoodoo: yeah - i don't think anyone is exactly the same as in RL Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's quite right, Traxx. It is. Sean Gorham: i have a "me" av. i almost never wear it. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I'm much more boring and arrogant in RL ;) Traxx Hathor: heheheheh Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D Hank Hoodoo: my first av was supposed to be me Traxx Hathor: I'm more aggressive in RL Patroklus Murakami: i have more wrinkles ;) Hank Hoodoo: this av is actually the same facial features, but i took off a few pounds and made myself older and bluer Sean Gorham: like it says in my profile - if i wanted to be me, i'd just log out and go look in the mirror. :P Gwyneth Llewelyn: I seriously can't imagine that, Traxx — and that's interesting :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, good point, Sean :) Traxx Hathor: : ) Traxx Hathor: good point indeed Aliasi Stonebender: My avatar isn't completely unlike me, but not like me. A cousin, if you will. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now it's just up to you to define what "me" is. Moon Adamant: i am a bit more weird in rl than what i am here... i guess i go more unnoticed :) but i am always the same person :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft Moon Gwyneth Llewelyn: "weird", hmm, not really Moon Adamant: unnoticed here, i mean :) Sean Gorham: right, ali. my "me" av has more hair, for one thing. :P although i'd change that if i could manage it i'm no good making prim hair. Patroklus Murakami: i wear stuff in SL i wd never wear in RL lol! Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Patroklus :) Traxx Hathor: I want a chainsword in RL Sean Gorham: same here! Traxx Hathor: jk : ) Hank Hoodoo: i actually dress more or less the same, though i can't afford quite as many spiffy clothes in RL jamie Martin: you can't afford Mr. T shirts? Kitten Lulu: I'd never dress here as I do in RL. Sean Gorham: i'm very much a jeans-and-tshirt type irl... here i wear stuff i could neither afford nor get away with. :P Hank Hoodoo: that's not Mr. T! Kitten Lulu: I'd mostly dress in pijamas :P Sean Gorham: hah. :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Kitten :) Moon Adamant: hmmm, i'd dress like this irl if i could afford it, not to mention have time to go and actually do some shopping :) Kitten Lulu: I work from home Kitten Lulu: pijamas are my work outfit Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... wings and all, Moon? ;) Traxx Hathor: that would be great! Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, that is great, Kitten :) No problems doing the laundry, then :) Patroklus Murakami: i'd love to have wings in RL! Kitten Lulu: pijamas need to be cleaned too, Gwy Moon Adamant: i'd love to have wings in rl as well Traxx Hathor: me too Aliasi Stonebender: I've love to pull off half the tricks I pull off in SL in RL. jamie Martin: you'd be forever getting things off roofs Kitten Lulu: I'd love to have a tp in RL Sean Gorham: not me. they'd just get in the way. Moon Adamant: in fact, i have wings on since day 1 Aliasi Stonebender: concentrate block of plywood pops into existence Traxx Hathor: heh Hank Hoodoo: oh man, yeah, i'd make a killing in manufacturing Traxx Hathor: zero cost construction materials Sean Gorham: wouldn't we all! Traxx Hathor: that would rock Hank Hoodoo: scarcity is a bitch Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I have a flower in my hair since day 1 as well. Hmm. These things are also interesting. Sean Gorham: and i've always worn glasses. Kitten Lulu: we are not distant from that, rapid prototyping will meet our real lifes in a decade or so Traxx Hathor: yes the flower and the wings and the glasses Sean Gorham: unless it's a non-humanoid av. Traxx Hathor: trademark accessories Moon Adamant: symbols Traxx Hathor: symbols is more accurate Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, that's it. Sean Gorham: they're part of what defines us, even here. Sean Gorham: like an anchor. Traxx Hathor: I like to have a weapon to symbolize the combat games I play Moon Adamant: indeed Sean Traxx Hathor: so people don't mistake me for a social type Aliasi Stonebender: hm, yes. I've gone through a few... I used to wear Spider Jerusalem glasses, I currently sport a "keywork" tattoo... but I've always had red/brown/auburn hair. I go out of my way. Hank Hoodoo: i wear glasses in SL even though i don't in RL to symbolize that i'm a geek :) Traxx Hathor: what's keywork? Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe traxx — you're more social than most people I know :) Sean Gorham: i've worn glasses irl since i was... seven? eight? i can't imagine NOT wearing them, even here. Aliasi Stonebender: logo of my favorite band, Coheed and Cambria. Hank Hoodoo: i wear contacts in RL because i hate the way glasses feel Sean Gorham: hah! i'm exactly the opposite. Kitten Lulu: I don't have a symbol like you do, but change ould be tought as a symbol in itself. Traxx Hathor: C'mon show us the keywork tatoo! Aliasi Stonebender: if it'll load... Moon Adamant: i am sure it is too, kitten Aliasi Stonebender: I'm wearin git, blame the asshat server. I've got the logo itsel fhandy tho Kitten Lulu: After all, I use Ouroboros as my nick in most other places in Internet. Traxx Hathor: that has other associations Kitten Lulu: it wasn't a conscious decision, but it's a symbol of change and of time. jamie Martin: and a red dwarf episode Kitten Lulu: uh? Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Brit reference ;) Kitten Lulu: Ouroboros is an ancient greek/pagan symbol, a serpent/dragon that eats its own tail. Traxx Hathor: a greyyyyyyy prim... Kitten Lulu: it's the pagan concept of time Gwyneth Llewelyn: I meant Red Dwarf :) Kitten Lulu: oh lol Traxx Hathor: grr I want to see the texture Aliasi Stonebender trades the asset server hamster for a wad of used bubble gum. Traxx Hathor: heh Sean Gorham: there we go. Traxx Hathor: there -- it finally rezzed Kitten Lulu: keywork? Aliasi Stonebender: there we go, yep. Aliasi Stonebender: and I think my skin MIGHT have reloaded by this time... Traxx Hathor: I like that graffiti style of the glyphs Aliasi Stonebender: ah, yep, there we go. I'm properly tattoo'd. Gwyneth Llewelyn: still fuzzy at the edges for me... :) Traxx Hathor: THERE it is... Aliasi Stonebender: (sorry to sidetrack) Traxx Hathor: that's easy to miss with your top Moon Adamant: nothing here yet... PL around 15% grrrr jamie Martin: oh I'm just counting freckles Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Aliasi Stonebender: well, sometime syou can see it, sometimes not. Aliasi Stonebender: however, persuant to our earlier discussion, I'm nto going topless so you can see better. :P Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes. I wonder about that as well... Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol Aliasi!!! Traxx Hathor: heh Sean Gorham chuckles. jamie Martin: just roll your shirt up! Patroklus Murakami: spoilsport Sean Gorham: riiiiight. :P Patroklus Murakami: :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: now that would be something cute for SL.... Gwyneth Llewelyn: rolling up shirts, sleeves... jamie Martin: it's funny the things that are much easier in SL and things that are much tougher Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, jamie. Aliasi Stonebender: (actually, this does have a "cropped" top version, I could kinda sorta roll it up that way. After waiting five minutes for it to load. :P) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Easy to build things, but half of the time you're waiting for textures to load ;) jamie Martin: oh just take it off then Aliasi Stonebender: no. :P Traxx Hathor: (&(&(^^%%^^%$%^### lag-slaves Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Traxx :) Traxx Hathor: when you say things that are harder that's what I think Aliasi Stonebender: LAG FOR THE LAG-GOD Moon Adamant: lol Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, finally, Aliasi — your clothes have* rezzed! jamie Martin: you think lag slaves? Traxx Hathor: jaimie I'm an architect, and I'm really constrained by lag considerations Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm very nice shirt, Aliasi :) jamie Martin: but at least you don't have the stress and weight and support issues :) Sean Gorham: true. Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... or materials costs :) jamie Martin: just prim limits Gwyneth Llewelyn: Except for uploading textures, well... Traxx Hathor: Only my desire to have a building 'look right' jamie Martin: aka real Aliasi Stonebender: indeed. Traxx Hathor: not quite jamie Martin: possible? Traxx Hathor: There are underlying preferences Aliasi Stonebender: my shop is totally fantastic, but I wanted to give it versimilitude (ooh, BIG WORD) Traxx Hathor: We don't have to worry about point loads Traxx Hathor: but we may have an underlying preference for substantial over flimsy Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... well, Traxx, you could set all the building to "physics on" and see what happens to it ;) jamie Martin: expectations again Traxx Hathor: heh Sean Gorham: it would probably crash the sim. :P Kitten Lulu: like a sim crash Gwyneth Llewelyn: Probably, just blow up the entire sim.... yes Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Gwyneth Llewelyn: How predictable SL is :) Traxx Hathor: jaimie that can be part of what defines an architectural style Traxx Hathor: Gothic is more heavily built than Elven jamie Martin: true. A form of basic pattern copying :) Traxx Hathor: And it doesn't have to be basic Traxx Hathor: in the sense of simple metrics Hank Hoodoo: ok, i should return to RL now... thanks for the discussion as usual, Thinkerz. Traxx Hathor: geez we sure ran overtime Sean Gorham: ok hank. Aliasi Stonebender: yeah, between the "blinged out mansion", "bloody gothic vampire castle of BLOOD", and "big ugly textured box" looks... jamie Martin: I meant basic only in the form of fitting into a style Sean Gorham: we've barely gotten started if you ask me! Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, Sean jamie Martin: a certain minimum of features Hank Hoodoo: yeah, true Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kitten — you should do a series :) Hank Hoodoo: ...to be continued... Traxx Hathor: Aliasi my current full sim client asked for Elven, and there is no Elven architecture Kitten Lulu: oh next one, transhumanism :P Traxx Hathor: So why not design one Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh Aliasi Stonebender: you expect buildings to be oriented according to the ground, etc, etc. Sean Gorham: hah, yes! Traxx Hathor: Transhumanism is great Patroklus Murakami: ooh yes! Sean Gorham is waiting to be uploaded Aliasi Stonebender: Oh, traxx? Hank Hoodoo: humanism > transhumanism for me Moon Adamant: oh, brb jamie Martin: talking about furries and vampires? :P
Kitten Lulu Registered User Join date: 8 Jul 2005 Posts: 114	11-10-2005 01:30 Transgenderism in SL - Part 5 of 6 Kitten Lulu: It's Aliasi's child however Aliasi Stonebender: Do you mean that in the simple sense of "there aren't really elves" Kitten Lulu: I'd prefer her to host Gwyneth Llewelyn: There aren't Elves?? Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Aliasi Stonebender: or in the more complex sense of "there is no preexisting "elven standard"" Patroklus Murakami: couldn't we discuss something controversial instead? grin slyly Traxx Hathor: the Elven Architecture isn't there Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Traxx Hathor: But Gothic is Traxx Hathor: and boring realistic is too Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Traxx Hathor: It's a wonderful opportunity Aliasi Stonebender: I dunno, I thought Elf Clan's sim was kinda there, but they fo for vagruely Tolkien/D&D tropes seems to me. Traxx Hathor: Aliasi have you looked at the builds there? Aliasi Stonebender: I've not been since for awhile, Traxx. Traxx Hathor: They have a certain jaw-dropping texture Traxx Hathor: That set of textures are among the best in SL in my opinion Traxx Hathor: but there is no architecture to go with it Traxx Hathor: Everyone builds different stuff, and a lot of it clashes Aliasi Stonebender: ah, no unifying "sim theme" you mean. Gwyneth Llewelyn gave you The Soapbox anims + list controller. Traxx Hathor: actually they are good with the theme Traxx Hathor: but the architecture is not themed Aliasi Stonebender: in the architecture, I mean jamie Martin: that shirt seems slightly transparent :) Aliasi Stonebender: I wasn't saying that they don't dress like elves. :P Traxx Hathor: the way we look at the Akropolis Traxx Hathor: and see the theme Traxx Hathor: or midcentury modern Traxx Hathor: so it's an opportunity to devise a theme : ) Traxx Hathor: since the owner of UNLIMITED picked Elven Aliasi Stonebender: ah. well, there is a theme I DO think of when I think of elvish Patroklus Murakami: time for bed, g'night all Traxx Hathor: night : ) Sean Gorham: night, patroklus. Aliasi Stonebender: but then, I think of Rivendell from the LotR movies. Kitten Lulu: bye Patrolkus Patroklus Murakami: same time, next wee? Kitten Lulu: ehm Patroklus Traxx Hathor: ah I know what you mean Patroklus Murakami: week* Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, create a movie, bye bye imagination Traxx Hathor: actually that sim owner bought a cute little house like that once Aliasi Stonebender: Not so, gwyn. jamie Martin: exploding dolphins Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know, I'm mean Kitten Lulu: Can we do it earlier plz? Aliasi Stonebender: movies may suppliment, but they don't replace for me. Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although, well, we've been discussing how the "visual" influences us... Aliasi Stonebender: althuogh Ian McKellan IS Gandalf, anyone who argues is itchign for a fight. :P Traxx Hathor: heh Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D Sean Gorham: i thought he was Magneto. ducks jamie Martin: ditto Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl Sean Aliasi Stonebender: he's both! Sean Gorham: a floor wax AND a dessert topping! Aliasi Stonebender: that's why you don't want to get him angry, y'know. Kitten Lulu: Mageno is Gandalf in disguise, he got pissed off after the Balrog jamie Martin: Magnetalf. Gandeto? Traxx Hathor: I guess my interest is in seeing how that cute house look can be meshed with the High Elf Castle look Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D Traxx Hathor: If I took the sim owner's cute house, and designed a larger version, it would look globby Traxx Hathor: okay I'll stop sidetracking now : P Aliasi Stonebender: yes, to a lesser extent, we have something kind of similar in Eldora, where a bunch of people I hang out with are. We all have our own building, but the whole thing does kind of scream "us". Gwyneth Llewelyn: "now"? ;) Traxx Hathor: I don't have to ? Gwyneth Llewelyn: No! Traxx Hathor: heheheh Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's too late to get "back on track" ;) Traxx Hathor: actually I have to get back to RL Traxx Hathor: : ( Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww Traxx Hathor: cya all : ) Sean Gorham: yes, i'd love to come back to the original topic someday. not today though. :) Kitten Lulu: cya Gwyneth Llewelyn: see you Traxx :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes, Sean. Aliasi Stonebender: we're here. points. the track was there. points way over. and THAT is the vast gulf inbetween. Kitten Lulu: lol Kitten Lulu: we are here for the discussion, not to get anywhere Sean Gorham: oh well. typical meeting. get distracted by the smallest little bright-n-shiny. Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes Moon Adamant: back Gwyneth Llewelyn: and bye bye topic :) Kitten Lulu: btw, be blunt, do you like this place? Gwyneth Llewelyn: too late now to come back, Moon :) Sean Gorham: it looks good. :) Aliasi Stonebender: I like it. Sean Gorham: you just need to move it someplace without clouds. :) Aliasi Stonebender: I see you never did the proper skybox thing yet tho. Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hate the way the textures fade in, then out, then in again... Aliasi Stonebender: yeah, maybe move it up another few dozen meters? Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope they fix the sim finally Kitten Lulu: No Jessica was busy Kitten Lulu: and I want 1.7 to stabilize Moon Adamant: this place looks very nice kitty Aliasi Stonebender: with the walls tho, not really needed. Moon Adamant: i think you got the scale right Kitten Lulu: and the slingo place moved away so I am happy Gwyneth Llewelyn: May I ask you, Kitty, are the hieroglyphs on the columns real reproductions? Kitten Lulu: but then, prokofy is building one near by my home :( Gwyneth Llewelyn: ugh. Kitten Lulu: I have no idea I got it as a gift from another resident Kitten Lulu: who got it from someone else Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh i see :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was just wondering :) Kitten Lulu: if anyone wants them, just ask Kitten Lulu: the textures Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, thank you for the offer :D Aliasi Stonebender: sure! Sean Gorham: ok, i'm off. later all. good meeting, if a bit meandering. :) jamie Martin: I don't know how many scripts slingo uses, but if 1.7 stays the way it is, you can drive them off by running hundreds of scripts and slowing them to a crawl :p Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like the floor ones most, to be honest... Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Kitten Lulu: grins Aliasi Stonebender: i like the central circular bit. Kitten Lulu: In fact, I was going to see how many decimals of PI I can calculate :P Moon Adamant: lol Gwyneth Llewelyn: actually, Kitten, what you say does not sound like Prokofy.... he usually doesn't set up slingo parlours where there is too much lag, hmm Gwyneth Llewelyn: and thank you for the textures! Gwyneth Llewelyn accepted your inventory offer. Gwyneth Llewelyn accepted your inventory offer. jamie Martin: you should have each script working on one decimal Kitten Lulu: In my other place, there is no lag Kitten Lulu: that's why I moved there Kitten Lulu: Hartwick Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah I see! Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, ok. Kitten Lulu: Near Prokofy's dam Aliasi Stonebender accepted your inventory offer. Aliasi Stonebender accepted your inventory offer. Gwyneth Llewelyn nods Moon Adamant: well, i must go now Moon Adamant: kitten, it was a nice discussion Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, thank you for hosting it :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's a pretty hard topic, especially for SL. Moon Adamant: see you all soon, have fun! :) Aliasi Stonebender: it's hard, tho in some ways it really shouldn't be. Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye Moonie :) Kitten Lulu: :-) Moon Adamant: oh, is this an island? Kitten Lulu: No Kitten Lulu: mainland Moon Adamant: ah, kk - the hyperporter should work then Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, at least we didn't have one of those guys saying "we should all be forbidden to have AVs that don't look like yourselves". Aliasi Stonebender: indeed it will. Aliasi Stonebender: oh, yes. Aliasi Stonebender: I hate that. jamie Martin: lol jamie Martin: asl? Gwyneth Llewelyn: I had a few of those once. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nothing to laugh about, jamie, sadly. Aliasi Stonebender: I know, I know, "hate is a strong word". But I do. Aliasi Stonebender: fscking greyfaces. Gwyneth Llewelyn: :P jamie Martin: Oh they may outnumber me, but I still laugh at them Gwyneth Llewelyn shrugs jamie Martin: Not a one of them is going to make an honest av either Gwyneth Llewelyn: Imagine if LL would force you to scan a picture from your ID or passport... jamie Martin: I'd use an older photo Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and make sure you wear it all the time as your skin :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha jamie, yes :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Aliasi Stonebender: heh. although, oddly, Philip Linden looks kinda like his av. No mustache and no disco chaps, but other than that.... ;) Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, that's a nasty precedent :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fortunately, Pathfinder does not look like his av ;) Kitten Lulu: that's bad, I so love his av Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha yes :) Aliasi Stonebender: Satchmo, on the other hand, totally does. You know this to be true. Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... I've seen a forgery of it for sale, in one of Prokofy's mini-malls, lol Aliasi Stonebender: Not a forgery, exactly Gwyn Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course, Alasi :) hehe Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi jamie Martin: I haven't seen many lindens Aliasi Stonebender: Pathfinder's av is a black mage, from the "Final Fantasy" video games. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I see. Aliasi Stonebender: his is customized, but there's others. jamie Martin: Huh. Surprised that's allowed Aliasi Stonebender: Well, he doesn'ty SAY black mage, and it doesn't directly rip any textures or anything. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Surprised that Path would go for copyrighted material, rofl jamie Martin: wink wink nod nod Aliasi Stonebender: and "wizard-looking guy in blue robe" is kind of generic. Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes :) Aliasi Stonebender: not like my moogle av. ;) jamie Martin: yeah like all the calvins on people's windows Aliasi Stonebender: (the winged teddybear thinger) Kitten Lulu: I like the wizard-looking dwarf-like in blue robe Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course not, purely original at that, Aliasi :) Aliasi Stonebender: the box-prim-av is totally 100% me! :D Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha yes!! Gwyneth Llewelyn: that one is sooo funny :) Aliasi Stonebender: it's the SL nature spirit. jamie Martin: but you copied it from the linden labs prim! Aliasi Stonebender: PRIM ELEMENTAL Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Gwyneth Llewelyn watches a plywood sphere and wonders what will come out of it... jamie Martin: I wonder what will go in it Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm Gwyneth Llewelyn: poof. Gwyneth Llewelyn: :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: beachball avatar? Kitten Lulu: poseball Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh! Kitten Lulu: I have yet to master invisprim to make it smaller Gwyneth Llewelyn: XXXXL size? :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol jamie Martin: pose ball, Sperm Whale edition Gwyneth Llewelyn: to really, really make sure people don't miss it? :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha yes, jamie! Aliasi Stonebender: hm, I know a few people who try to go for giant avs... that must be what THEY use, yes. Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Kitten Lulu: lol Kitten Lulu: giantbox sexball Kitten Lulu: giantbot jamie Martin: he would have an enormous schvanstooker Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm afraid to ask what that* is... Gwyneth Llewelyn blushes jamie Martin: young frankenstein reference Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh jamie Martin: but it's still what you're thinking Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sadly, I have a terrible memory for almost everything. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm right :) jamie Martin: since you have a dirty mind Gwyneth Llewelyn: Me??? Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, I'm strictly PG :) jamie Martin: So you think nuns never had dirty thoughts? Aliasi Stonebender: hm, I'm going to go to Sel's thing... cya all! Kitten Lulu: bye Aliasi Gwyneth Llewelyn: me too :) Gwyneth Llewelyn: see you soon... Kitten Lulu: I am going to bed Kitten Lulu: bye gwy Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol sleep well, Kitten, and thanks for hosting this :) Kitten Lulu: and jamie too Kitten Lulu: ty Kitten Lulu: for coming so numerous jamie Martin: bye :) Kitten Lulu: mmh, numerous is not an English word probably Kitten Lulu: plenty jamie Martin: it's english but in wrong usage Kitten Lulu: ok Kitten Lulu: ty Kitten Lulu: I have to check a dictionary jamie Martin: bye, tping :)
Kitten Lulu Registered User Join date: 8 Jul 2005 Posts: 114	11-10-2005 01:32 Transgenderism in SL - Part 6 of 6 Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh drats, broken teleport.... Kitten Lulu: mmmh, you can try the hyperteleporter Kitten Lulu: Do you have one? Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm good point. Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, somewhere, hehe Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah Kitten Lulu: bye Gwyneth Llewelyn: sadly, outside of the mainland... pfft Kitten Lulu: ouch Gwyneth Llewelyn shrugs Formatted and colorized with transcript.

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