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Script copyright...

Kaneda Akebono
Junior Member
Join date: 7 Jun 2004
Posts: 14
06-21-2004 22:02
I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything. I just wanted to pose a question for intelligent discussion. I've seen a number of very simple scripts posted here in the forums since I joined not long ago, and I notice that alot of people put these copyright warnings in their scripts that they post. Now come on. Some of these scripts are painfully simple, practically example code. By this I mean, they're pretty much using the proper syntax for the commands and nothing complicated or highly customized is involved. I mean, yes. You can copyright this if you want. Not that it matters really. I'm not saying that scripts can't\shouldn't be copyrighted... I think a simple "Script Written By: Mister Scriptsalot" does the trick... but your not taking some avatar to court over your "unique" 8 lines of code that rotates a prim and changes colors. If you want to post a helpful snipet of code to help people... slap your name on it if ya want to... but a pretentious copyright seems silly. Just post your code and be the helpful sort that you are. I dunno if anyone here shares my view... I mean even using a GPL liscense seems ludicrous to me. It's one thing if you wrote a particle engine script that you spent hours and hours on. Super, copyright the hell out of it. But posting a little helpful script that does some little thing to some prim with a big copyright at the top seems really silly to me. Just my thoughts on the issue.

-Kaneda
Chase Bravo
Junior Member
Join date: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 13
06-21-2004 22:32
This is of course, is your view on the matter Kaneda. Something you are entitled to and will be respected by others, including me.

However, of the billions of people on this planet, we all have different opinions or views on everything. Those that place copyright info on their small snippets of code have a different view than you do on the matter.......obviously.

IMO: to each his own....
Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
06-21-2004 23:39
I agree to a point, simple scripts i write i don't attach anything to (though i should put public domain). For complicated scripts that take a long time, if i'm going to release mod version i usualy release into GPL or CC (attrib, and share alike) or of functions i post on the forum (shameless plug) i releases as public domain or LGPL.
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Oblique Arbuckle
Registered User
Join date: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 18
06-21-2004 23:56
If it's somebody else's code, they've got a right to copyright it however they want. That's the joy of the US copyright system. There's so much free LSL code floating around anyway, that this shouldn't even really matter.

Besides, based on US copyright law, you automatically get a copyright for any creative work you produce anyway, copyright notice or not. You don't even have to put a (C) anymore. So a notice doesn't really serve any purpose other than to notify others that it's your creation anyway.

I say, let people put however many copyright notices in their scripts as they want. Hey, at least they're giving out code!


:)
Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
06-22-2004 01:40
I put a Copyright notice on top of every script I make to let people know it is free to redistribute.
Francis Chung
This sentence no verb.
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 918
Re: Script copyright...
06-22-2004 06:16
Kaneda, I have to say, I completely agree.

"This is an 8 line script that I converted from some C code that I found on the net. I'm releasing this as GPL so you can't sell this."

Ridiculous! If this was C code, people would laugh at claims of "copyright".

I have a simple metric: If your code isn't at least twice as long as the copyright header, it's just not worth it :)

Heh, on a related note, I was thinking that maybe it'd be handy to have two script libraries: trivial scripts, non-trivial scripts.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
06-22-2004 08:01
Uh, francis, you need to actually read the GPL one of these days. There is nothing in the GPL forbidding resale.
If there was, how would we have LINUX DISTROS? :D
Wednesday Grimm
Ex Libris
Join date: 9 Jan 2003
Posts: 934
06-22-2004 09:21
From: someone
Originally posted by Eggy Lippmann
Uh, francis, you need to actually read the GPL one of these days. There is nothing in the GPL forbidding resale.
If there was, how would we have LINUX DISTROS? :D


You can sell GPL'ed code, but you must make the source available to anyone you sell it to. The same is true of code you give away. If it's under the GPL, you must make a copy of the source reasonably available to anyone you give it to.

Are all you GPL'ers doing that?

(This post ® and © Wednesday Grimm™ 2004, All rights reserved).
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
06-22-2004 09:28
Well, I never sell anything, and barring some mistake, I give away my scripts with full permissions. The script is the source, I dont have anything else to give away :)
I have always been vehemently against the current permissions system, and dearly hope the new one will be less tyrannical. SL was supposed to be focused on collaborative creation, and the permissions used to reflect that very well. Now its all money money money...
Eddy Stryker
libsecondlife Developer
Join date: 6 Jun 2004
Posts: 353
06-22-2004 09:28
From: someone
Originally posted by Eggy Lippmann
Uh, francis, you need to actually read the GPL one of these days. There is nothing in the GPL forbidding resale.
If there was, how would we have LINUX DISTROS? :D


Someone in SL actually tried to argue this with me. When I mentioned eBay sales of Linux the answer was "well you can resell it for the cost of distribution". Apparently at that point they were just making things up, but this person was dead serious and claimed to have used the GPL license for quite some time on their own code. If I had told them the cost of RedHat Enterprise they might have filed a lawsuit ;). It's sad that one of most simple and libre licenses is that misunderstood. It's not that long, just sit down and read it!
Wednesday Grimm
Ex Libris
Join date: 9 Jan 2003
Posts: 934
06-22-2004 09:31
Red Hat Enterprise contains a lot of non-GPL'ed Red Hat propritary code, and also, (I believe) comes with a service contract. That's what they're charging for (mostly).
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Azelda Garcia
Azelda Garcia
Join date: 3 Nov 2003
Posts: 819
06-22-2004 09:34
Eggy and Francis, can you email me please on [email]hughperkins@yahoo.com[/email] ? This is nothing to do with this thread, but it's the only way to contact you right now and I have something I want to ask you.

Azelda
Eggy Lippmann
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Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
06-22-2004 09:38
GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
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Yoyodyne, Inc., hereby disclaims all copyright interest in the program
`Gnomovision' (which makes passes at compilers) written by James Hacker.

<signature of Ty Coon>, 1 April 1989
Ty Coon, President of Vice

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Francis Chung
This sentence no verb.
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 918
06-22-2004 09:48
From: someone
Originally posted by Eggy Lippmann

b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be
distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
customarily used for software interchange; or,
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
06-22-2004 09:58
Your point?
That doesnt in any way forbid people from selling GPLed programs, you just have to make the source available at cost. If you already distribute your programs unlocked, they already contain the source.

From the GNU GPL FAQ:

Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money?
Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.)

Does the GPL allow me to charge a fee for downloading the program from my site?
Yes. You can charge any fee you wish for distributing a copy of the program. If you distribute binaries by download, you must provide "equivalent access" to download the source--therefore, the fee to download source may not be greater than the fee to download the binary.
Trimda Hedges
Creator of Useless Prims
Join date: 19 Nov 2003
Posts: 247
06-22-2004 10:23
Back to the original question, to copyright a work and enforce said copyright requires a few things.

1/ It must be legally dated. The old poor man's way was to mail a hardcopy of the sources, and a copy of the software back to yourself. Depending on the venue, the date/time stamp in SL's forums may be suffecient.

2/ When attempting to enforce the copyright act, you must be able to clearly demonstrate, that the code was unique at the time of creation. No, spacing does not count, or formatting, the actual functions performed by the code.

3/ The copyright must be actively enforced. If the copyright owner does not immediately pursue the copyright apon discovery of conflict, they effectively waive their rights to seek legal recourse. There have been cases in certain venues where this has not been the case, but the general ruling has always been against the plaintiffs.

My own take on it, people, don't be so trite. You post an example script on the forums, assume its under GPL or no protection at all. Yes, definately take ownership of it! Be proud that you've contributed to the community!

Generally, posting examples to the forums of your code signifies that you are happy to share it. To post a copyright notice in a scripting library open to the public is saying "See! See how big my wang is? I'm so great!". Either claim it under GPL, free-ware, just put your name on as "By You" or nothing at all. To copyright is to say, "You can look at this, but ya better not copy it!".


Eggy, I agree with you most definately, now its about greed. To see people sellin a single textured prim for L$250, which might have taken all of 10 minutes to do, or try and charge $1000 for a basic vehical script, its pretty bad... SL is meant to be enjoyed, but LL has helped engineer the greed, now its business. yay.
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Francis Chung
This sentence no verb.
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 918
06-22-2004 11:15
Eggy,

True, but we're talking about the source code itself, not the compiled binary. (or at least I was) Heh, my point was just that there's all these sort of copyright notices on code snippets that really are too trivial (and technically are a derivative work) to bother. Aaannnyywayss...

Trimda,

It doesn't quite work like that.

This is an easy to read laymen's explanation:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

But if you'd like to bore yourself to tears, you can read the Berne copyright convention (which is observed in most countries) in its full glory:
http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/hst/global/TheBerneUniversalCopyrightConvention/toc.html

Most important things to take away:
- You automatically get the copyright as soon as you make it. No paperwork required.
- You cannot forfeit your copyright, short of being dead for 50 years.

Although, the things you mention definately do make it easier to enforce, Trimda.

As for the all-about-money part, there's some truth to it. But SL mirrors RL. While there's always going to be a capatalist-dominant society, there will also be an altruistic portion of the community. It's partly up to you how big that portion of the community is. Most of us, I think will support some combination of the two.

Personally, I kind of like that SL and money go hand in hand, for a few reasons:
1) It makes the whole economic system more interesting. This is not a toy economy, this is for REAL.
2) Money is a good motivator. Look around. The quality of builds/textures we see in SL is better than it used to be just a year ago. It's going to get better as people find that they can contribute to SL full-time, as a profession.
3) Money and influence go hand in hand. Last month, VERTU raised US$1700 for charity, and L4L was able to do US$1k or $2k (I forget). Can you IMAGINE the influence that the people of SL will have in just 2 years?
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Azelda Garcia
Azelda Garcia
Join date: 3 Nov 2003
Posts: 819
06-22-2004 19:53
> Personally, I kind of like that SL and money go hand in hand, for a few reasons:

They go hand-in-hand because SL is closed-source and proprietary.

Whilst I have a reputation for taking advantage of SL->RL more than many, fundamentally I'd much prefer an OpenSource version of SL. I switched to ClosedSource in SL because this is the norm in SL, and because anything else is inconsistent with a world that is fundamentally proprietary technology.

I came into SL because I wanted to experiment with Game Design and Level Design, not to make money. Making money was just a distraction. Prior to SL, I was experimenting a lot with Warcraft III Use Map Settings map design.

Here is my initial posting to SL on the subject:

"Do something about IP

"Just want to say that I find the whole in-game IP thing frustrating. I will quit soon most likely and this will be one of the three main reasons.

"I think we should ditch L$. People who create stuff do it because they enjoy it. They give their stuff to people because they enjoy seeing people use their stuff.

"Perhaps too radical? Who knows. The game has attracted, and retained, a certain group of people and this is the right game for them. The world will take the things that worked from the game, the incredible dynamic world, and move on.

"ZHugh"

Azelda (ex-ZHugh)
Kaneda Akebono
Junior Member
Join date: 7 Jun 2004
Posts: 14
06-23-2004 15:05
Hooray. I'm glad this turned into a good post.

Alot that I could comment on. Francis, you made alot of good points. I won't illuminate any specifically, because they're easy enough to find. But anyways, alot of the things I was initially talking about are small scripts that aren't really unique in anyway beyond perhaps using a non default variable name like strngs for string or something. I agree completely that people should put their name on their work and take credit for it. I just think it's silly on certain things to have an elaborate claim of copyright on such things.

Azelda, I agree with you in some ways on abolishing the $L. The thing that is attractive to me about SL is the nature of an interactive development enviorment. Infact, if somebody would develop a product that is completely client side and allowed more graphically detailed content and AI, I would ALL OVER that. I like the interactive nature of the world however, and this is the reason that $L had their appeal and need. I do think it's sad that the land horders and silly sex industry is some of the more profitable business in SL. Again SL==RL. Which is unfortunate in ways. It's good that SL has the freedoms for this, but at the same time it can be bad. Running SL on the scale they are does require alot of man power and computer power. I can see why the Land Fees are exprensive... though I personally think they are too high and should be factored into the cost of owning to lower the price of upkeep. However, that's a WHOLE different discussion. But for the users it's nice that you can recieve payment for your work and concievably cover the costs of at least a small plot of land. Though SL is such a huge scale now that it's EXTREMELY difficult to establish a well known and profitable business from what I can see. However it's a hard call whether keeping or loosing $L would fix much. There are arguments for both.

I think an offline SL compliment like I mentioned above would be great if there was an UBER small version that was multiuser online to connect and discuss what your working on and show people stuff. Again... this is fundamentally changing the product. But I think it's a good idea. (C) 2004 hehehe... But anyways... that too is off subject.

I don't think I have anything else to add at this point. Though thanks for not turning this into a really obnoxious thread. hehehe...

-Kaneda