How about some consistancy???

Concerns about the Morality Police aside, just whose definition of "broadly offensive" are we using anymore anyway?

From the official Linden Blog:

"Please help us to keep Second Life a safe and welcoming space by continuing to notify Linden Lab about locations in-world that are violating our Community Standards regarding broadly offensive and potentially illegal content."


From the Community Standards:

"Combating intolerance is a cornerstone of Second Life's Community Standards. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as whole. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images in reference to another Resident's race, ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation is never allowed in Second Life."


My report sent June 2nd: [rt.lindenlab.com #xxxxxx] Abuse Report Received: Abuse: ... [Intolerance] {---- -----} "Forming racist groups" RT#xxxxxx (I removed the #'s and name just in case there is some rule against posting them)

Reason: The group "14 Worms"

Group Charter: "This group is for folks who know of the 14 words and want to keep in touch with other like minded folks. We are primary a social gathering of sl residents who have a concern about our future as a people and a place to share ideas, learn and grow. 14 Words: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children" Strength through Unity, Unity through Faith, Faith in the 14 Words! Support those, who support you!"


For those not familiar, here is a little background on the "14 Words":

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

"The Fourteen Words is a saying frequently used by White nationalists, Neo-Nazis and White Pride supporters. The slogan was coined by the late David Lane, a member of the far-right white supremacist organization The Order. The fourteen words of the slogan are "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children."

The slogan was inspired by a statement in Volume 1, Chapter 8 of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf: "What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe."

Sometimes the slogan is spraypainted or used to deface property in order to mark "turf" in prisons and other urban areas (often stylized as 14W), so it can be considered a gang symbol as well. It is sometimes combined with '88' as in '14/88', '1488' or '8814'. The '88' stands for the eighth letter of the alphabet twice, or 'HH', the initials of Heil Hitler. '88' can also stand for the book '88 Precepts' by David Lane."


'A social gathering'? Riiiight. What do they call cross burnings? Weenie roasts?

My response received June 4th: [rt.lindenlab.com #xxxxxx] Abuse Report Resolved: Abuse: ... [Intolerance] {---- -----} "Forming racist groups" RT#xxxxxx

"Your Abuse Report has been investigated and resolved. In accordance with our Privacy Policy, Linden Lab will not disclose the resolution of" ... blah blah blah... "Linden Lab will not disclose incident details including"... yada yada yada... "or banning of Second Life Residents."


June 2nd - RECEIVED
June 4th - RESOLVED
June 6th (today) - THE GROUP STILL EXISTS IN SEARCH

Exsqueeze me??? I didn't really expect a ban or even a suspension. But the least they could do is delete the group and take sparky aside and tell him he (and the 46 members of his group) need to can the white supremacist rhetoric.

To paraphrase The Church Lady, I guess some things are only broadly offensive when it's conveeeeenient.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

The Fourteen Words is a saying frequently used by White nationalists, Neo-Nazis and White Pride supporters. The slogan was coined by the late David Lane, a member of the far-right white supremacist organization The Order. The fourteen words of the slogan are "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children."

The slogan was inspired by a statement in Volume 1, Chapter 8 of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf: "What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe."

Sometimes the slogan is spraypainted or used to deface property in order to mark "turf" in prisons and other urban areas (often stylized as 14W), so it can be considered a gang symbol as well. It is sometimes combined with '88' as in '14/88', '1488' or '8814'. The '88' stands for the eighth letter of the alphabet twice, or 'HH', the initials of Heil Hitler.'88' can also stand for the book '88 Precepts' by David Lane.

For those of you who've read my other posts, I guess it's time for me to live by my words.

As a starter, I dislike racists. I don't defend them normally. However, I do defend their right to their ideas and opinions if expressed in a peaceful manner (i.e. their right to swing their fist ends just before another person's face).

I live in the United States (I know we have a lot of people on SL from other parts of the world, just giving everyone a heads up), and as such I believe in the Constitution of the US which includes our first amendment on the freedom of speech and expression. Despite how much I hate the message that racists spread, if they do so in a peaceful manner, I cannot, in good conscious, suppress their individual right to think, say, or express their ideas or ideals. No matter how much I personally detest them. Remember, the first amendment has to cover everyone equally, or we all lose a little freedom.

On to the subject of personal property. Linden Labs owns Second Life. That means, until they are taken to court and a precedent is set, they can make up whatever rules or ToS they want and we have to abide by it. They can allow what they wish and ban what they wish, and we won't always agree with their decisions.

By Linden Labs ToS, they may be allowed to exist so long as they don't voice their opinion on other people's sims. Unfortunately due to privacy acts, we'll never know.

Just to clarify, I'm not supporting the "report the deviants" mentality. I'm actually supporting the opposite.

In 1966 my grandfather owned a sporting goods store in a small town. One day, two men he'd never seen before came in and asked him why he sold guns to blacks and hispanics (NOT the words they used). He said, "Because they pay their bill." He had a cross burnt on his lawn and they proceeded to intimidate every person in that town from not only patroning his store, but from paying their store credit or anything else. He went out of business.

This "the 'Community' has spoken" logic is bullcrap. Linden Lab needs to decide FOR ITSELF exactly WHAT is wants to stand for, not listen to busybody groups. I THOUGHT that was what the Community Standards where for, but I guess they mean about as much as "all men are created equal" meant in 1966... because by that logic the 'community' was apparently speaking in 1966 when they said and did nothing and let the Clan "peacefully" put a decent, honest man out of business for treating everyone the same. That is the nature of fear and intimidation and those are the weapons of choice of small groups who believe everyone else should think, act, do, speak and look exactly as they do.

Don't pawn this off on 'the community'. Don't empower the zealots. Linden Lab needs to decide exactly WHAT they want this world to allow and not allow and the residents will decide if they want to be a part of that world or not. Linden Lab has to make a choice. And like the song goes, even if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. The choices they've made so far have been to give the morality mongers a banner to wave and the hate groups a toehold in SL and not to even do anything about it when it is pointed out to them.

No one was crying over cracking down on the pedophiles. We were cheering. Nor even with limiting the casinos. If people NEED to gamble they have a serious problem. But now Linden Lab is apparently abandoning what the Community Standards say while giving small groups the ability to use them as a weapon against those they find undesirable in some way that would not even affect them if they simply minded their own business.

They do that and they are letting all that is wrong with the real world infect this marvelous new one.

Jordan, evil wins when good people do nothing. And if my right to swing my fist ends just before someone's face, how about I try that with the President? Hey, it's free speech, right? Is burning a cross free speech if it's on the public sidewalk outside someone's home? No. Why? Because it's not about speech or speaking one's opinion. It's about intimidation. We don't have the right to threaten and intimidate people.

BTW, you could also argue pedophiles have the right to express their opinions too as long as they don't break any laws doing it. (i.e. their right to give away candy ends just before they touch someone's kid) Does that mean they should be able to form groups in SL that are a "social gathering of sl residents who have a concern about our future as a people and a place to share ideas, learn and grow?"

Second Life is not a free speech zone. Try forming the group "Death to the Lindens" and see how well that goes over. I'm not saying anybody doesn't have a right to think whatever they want to think. I'm saying Linden Lab needs to decide what they are and are not going to allow in Second Life through CLEARLY defined Community Standards and by ENFORCING them... ALL of them. What they've been doing so far is to selectively enforce some vague interpretation of them depending on what pressure group or government is exerting enough influence at the time. I don't know about you, but I find that 'broadly offensive'.

They can crack down on the casinos ads when the FBI starts looking at them funny. They can tell the pedos, "sorry... not gonna happen" when governments are up in arms. They can make the dominatrices shake in their leather boots because enough moral evangelists are making a stink. So why can't they find the guts to do something about a group whose very nature goes against their own self-proclaimed "cornerstone of Second Life's Community Standards."

If they are going to stand for morality then stand for morality. If they are going to take a stand against intolerance, then by God take a stand against intolerance. I just want them to make up their mind and pick one so we know what exactly they stand for.

Not everyone was cheering, some of us saw it for what it was, but we were ridiculed as being over-reactionary. Atleast until the Lindens came out with "Broadly Offensive". Suddenly you are feeling put out?

some snippage has occured:



Free speech and expression is just that. Free. No, we don't have the right to threaten or intimidate people. But we do have to right to express our opinions in this country. That's stated in the first amendment. And I'm sorry, whether you or I like it or not, that includes racists.

That's why the KKK has been allowed to stage peaceful marches. They have that right. They can say all they like. It just illegal if they ACT on their racist nature.

Not all of us cheered for the initial restrictions that LL passed down like you seem to think. Was some policing necessary? Yes. The actual passing of illegal material such as real images of child pornography or rape should be stopped. But the "immorality" of ageplay or forced fantasies between consenting adults in a make believe world? No. No harm, no foul. No one can actually get hurt, there is absolutely no supporting evidence that it leads to harmful behavior to explore your fantasies in such a way, and we're all supposed to be adults here and able to make our own choices and live with them.

There is a lot of behavior that I consider abhorrent that most people think is just a part of life. I may mention things to that fact, but I never violently oppose it. I can only express my opinion and hope others learn. And I learn to live with them as best I can, despite that fact that I feel they are doing the wrong thing.

What they did to your grandfather is illegal and it was wrong. However, telling them that they are not allowed to think that way or have that opinion, I'm sorry to say, is also wrong. You are not a member of the thought police, because we don't have any, and despite the problems in the world, we never should.

That is the price of freedom, my friend.

As far as Nazi's, Klansmen, or Pedophiles go, are they allowed to form a group and sit around and discuss their agendas.? In my opinion, yes. As long as no action is taken beyond talking, they should be able to express their ideas no matter how vulgar or hateful.
Groups like this should be heard by the largest possible audience. It illustrates how twisted and totally evil they are.
In my opinion.

I think the way to solve this is to get people to report things as broadly offensive from a point of view, yet is totaly rediculous.

When I get the chance I will start reporting anyone walking around as a human as being offensive to my draconic sense of smell.

Does it make sense to ban people for being human? No.
Then it doesn't make any sense to ban people for being furry, which very well could happen.

To paraphrase Carlos Mencia..

Its ok to be proud of your race if you're black or brown, but if you're proud of being white even whites kick you ***!

Racial pride doesn't stop at one race..

That being said militant groups like 14 words shouldn't be in SL, but neither should militant black groups, asian, hispanic, or italian groups.

An 'Ivory Pride' group, thats nonviolent, just takes pride in white heritage? Perfectly fine. Even a Confederate pride is - provided they don't support slavery or inequality.

I completely agree. Oddly enough, the ACLU first won my respect (in the early 90's, I think it was) when they supported the right of a Nazi group to hold a rally. I despise everything the Nazis and other white supremecist groups stand for, but organizations like the ACLU that put their principles before their political and social beliefs are few and far between.

As cliché as it is, I'm a big fan of the statement: I may not agree with what you're saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Same, as long as what you're saying does not say that what I say is wrong (unless it can be factually shown to be false, which is the difference between belief/opinion and truth). And yes, there has been a case where my defence of my right to believe what I believe almost ruined the community of a forum.

I still don't understand it...somehow trying to maintain the right to free speach I fueled a flame war.

Why do I see that happening again?

Heres a perfect example - Theres a creationism museum opening RL..yes, where they say the flood carved the grand canyon. I don't follow that belief, but they are free to, no matter how much scientific evidence points against them, much like Flat Earth Society.

People are protesting this faux museum.. personally I think they should leave it be. The schools will correct any misinformed children, and home schooled children will find shocking scientific evidence when they get to college. If they persist in saying 'the flood carved the grand canyon' then they will get the answer wrong on any test.

I heard about it. I can't comprehend why it counts as a museum, but I will defend their right to build it. On the radio someone involved with it did say "it's supposed to enhance one's faith," so...

I'll say it again. Second Life is not a free speech zone. Second Life is not a public domain. Linden Lab owns this service. You agree to certain rules and conduct when you enter. If you can't follow them, you are booted out.

If it WAS a public space and followed the guidelines of free speech, I would be all for letting the nazis or the pedophiles have their say. But it's not. This isn't a free speech issue so any arguments based on that are a moot point.

Linden Lab has made it clear they will not allow certain things. That's fine. Let me know what those things are and then I'll decide if SL is a place I want to be. My beef is they ignore people who violate those ideals they supposedly stand for while caving in to pressure to violate them themselves on other fronts.

My point could be summed up thusly: Say what you mean and mean what you say, otherwise anything you do say is meaningless dribble.

LL would be better off, and we would be better off, if they could position themselves as a common carrier.

If they can do that, SL *would* be a free speech zone, but one in which individuals take responsibility for what they say and what they choose to see and hear.

Are we grown-up enough for that? Or do we need a sanitized PG themepark? The only way LL could ever get such a thing would be to block all the ways in which users can create content.

I'm with the ACLU on this one. However, if a racist group comes into SL and starts threatening people, that should be either bannable, or something individuals have permission to defend themselves against.

i didnt read every post so this might have already been said.... BUT

does the term second life mean anything to you?

its not JUST the name of the program created to bring us all together online

but

it is ALSO the meaning

if someone wants to be a nazi in SL then let them... are you afraid they are gonna come to your land and burn a cross on it? if so ban them so they can... i know wonderful concept.. if you dont have land then you dont have to worry about it...

dont put yourself in situations where you know there will be racists

if they talk to you mute them

SL is a huge community made of thousands o little comunitys you cant block the bad stuff without taking down the whole system

i dont see you bitching about the black pride groups....

hell i dont even careabout the pedophiles groups.... i would much rather them roleplay on here than actually go out and FORCE some kid to get them off

you may not be a racist but you do discriminate aginst their beliefs which to me is just as bad

for all i know you are black and you want them gone cause you think black are better... you never know the hidden meanings that could be right there

in my opinion this thread is worthless and waste of time and should be deleted no change will come from this

# Private discussions – the forums are a public area for the Second Life community’s use. Individuals who have a dispute with each other have other channels of communication to discuss their differences or communicate – private messaging, IM within Second Life, or chatting within Second Life. Also, threads that are addressed to a single individual or group are inappropriate on the forums, this includes slander or "naming names" in a posts title, starting polls about a particular resident or group, etc.

# Flaming, Spamming, Trolling – Flaming (posting a message that is intended to incite anger or directly attack a person or persons), Spamming (multiple posts of the same topic or discussion), and Trolling (a post with an intentionally contrary opinion written with the intent of inciting or getting argumentative opinions) are strongly discouraged. If you think your post might be over-reactive, or that it might fall into one of these definitions, please reconsider posting.

*locks*