Land Extortion

What recourse do customers have for this type of abuse:



This is subdivided into about 64 16 sq. m. plots. Huge ugly smoke stacks, bright rotating for sale signs, and every other type of crap is placed on them. Some may say, well that is fair - that is advertising space. Nobody - nobody goes there. This is purely an extortion group trying to sell each plot just so the neighbor can get rid of them.

Last time I asked about this type of thing was when we had the world wide Bush signs everywhere. That got me so sick I went on a 6 month break. This is verging on the same thing. It makes no business sense for SL to put up with this type of thing. It only brings bad will from the customers. And it adds zero value to the world.

What recourse does a mainland customer have against land extortion?

We have no recourse. But I can suggest a simple solution. Every mainland plot of less than 512 sq m should have a prim allowance of zero. This will still allow them to be bought, sold, joined and split, but not abused.

I'll move this to Resident Answers to get more suggestions on how to handle this type of situation in a civil way.

I hate to say it, Jeska, but I've never heard of a civil way for residents to handle land griefing - it's commonplace on the mainland, people buy plots, subdivide them into 16m2s, put up horrendously annoying ads or for-sale signs, set them for sale at a ridiculous high price, and then leave. They have no intention of negotiating or being reasonable as they just want you to buy the land.

Putting up things which block the view is pretty much the only thing neighbours can do.

This is one thing which really does need LL attention on the mainland. Some restriction on the subdivision of land such as suggested above would be extremely useful - I'm pretty sure it's not economical to land grief with parcels 512 or larger, it costs too much in tier and people can wait you out.

Most definitely needs Linden attention.

There is very little that us mainland owners can do because of Linden Lab's "hands off" approach... which extends to pretty much everything.

You have to start putting in building regulations. I see so many things that spoil an otherwise good view, most of which are adverts and other laggy crap.

Even something as simple as plots under 64 sq m cannot be set for sale would make a big difference, and getting rid of unsightly unnecessary intrusive advertising.

I could probably take you to a dozen different regions and within minutes find you a big handful of ToS violations - yet for some reason you seem unwilling to actually acknowledge that they exist.

Second Life really could be digital utopia, and there are a few places that are otherwise really quite attractive and pleasant to live in - until of course someone who cares not one iota about the neighbours moves in, does their own thing, then the whole region can go completely to pot.

Obviously, 3 years into the game, it is going to be nigh on impossible to implement "zoning rules" on existing regions, but you also need to recognise that not everyone wishes to rent land or deal with a land baron. But even just clearing up lost crap from wherever it happens to be, and enforcing a 'clear path' between the clouds (200m) and 500m for those who wish to fly would be a good start that would require little effort and provide a huge benefit to a lot of people.

Guy Linden may be good, but there's only one of him, and despite many people's offers of help in construction and land maintenance, they have all been rejected or ignored. Your greatest resource is your keen residents who want to build, and want to make SL a better place for everyone. We're here, we're waiting, and we're ready. The only thing you need to do is accept our help.

Lewis

Well, I have to agree. Does LL actually want SL to look like a strip mall on the outskirts of a Texas town 20 years after the oil ran out? That's what the entire mainland looks like, and to me this is not a good alternative to reality.

As long as tiny ad parcels can be created anywhere, that's what it's going to look like, and there's nothing that residents can do to change that. There's no hope of some sort of benign conspiracy among users -- there will always be someone ready to mess up the landscape for the chance of a few dollars. The only way to have a nice view is to buy one, and that seems harsh on people who want to participate at less than sim level.

Some kind of zoning is needed. I'm not sure what exactly. Good suggestions have been made...mine is, how about if tiny parcels can only be created if bordered by larger ones?

I realize that it doesn't matter what we suggest, but SL mainland now is just ugly, and there's nothing at all I as a user can do about it, locally or globally. I wish LL would do something so that wouldn't have to be true.

-Sheba
http://bathsheba.com

I agree with this. There is no civil way of handling it and it's annoying, but we don't have the tools to handle this either. It might be a bit different if we could tell our own parcels to not render the objects from other parcels or players, then it might not be so bad. Out of sight, out of mind sort of thing, because then I wouldn't see the person's ad blocks and nor would anyone else on my land.

Or prevent the land being subdivided below the 256m2 size or turn off the prim count for the 16m2s.

This is abuse, and it is just as bad as shooting people, or caging them, or tying up chat shouting obsenities. I suggest you report it. If nothing happens, report it again.If we all do this, the Lindens who handle abue reports will get the idea, and ban us all...oh wait, that would be bad.

I have a case that is not so flagant, just a neighbor with the huge blinking ugly FOR SALE sign in the sky. I will IM them tonight, and report them soon if I get no reply.

This is a controversial reply for me (*grits teeth*) but if the land is bought from LL, they're making a profit from it, regardless of what is then put on that land. If someone buys that land to remove the horror, does that money paid somehow have to influence the money in world? Basically what I'm asking is, does land extortion benefit LL in any way?

The 'hands off' approach (which I don't agree with in this instance) does cover everything quite nicely because, yes, they're allowing people to do exactly what they want, build their own world - but it seems the limits they're inclined to place (as God) don't have any bearing on the community being affected, but simpy whether or not it will have a finanical impact on the company.

I could, very possibly be talking out of my arse, but there seems to be some confusion in the standards between 'letting people build their own world' and 'causing unnecessary distress to other players', as per the TOS. Does someone selling land unreasonably create profit for LL in any way? Or is it just the tick-over of sales that keeps the game running?

Doesn't anyone get it? LL wants out of the land business. They don't want to deal with mainland land any more. If it all went to private ownership, I bet LL would be extremely happy. Why else would they do what they do in regards to the land? How hard would it really be to add a simple filter to only look for LL land or island land?

Hmmm, here are a couple suggestions. I just bought some land last week, and I see a couple 16M^2 plots on the same sim. If they were at a price that wasn't laughable, I might be interested in buying them, to increase the my prim allowance for when I decide to build. With that thought in mind, here is is what I would suggest.

1) Plot of 16M^2 does not allow building on it, but does have a prim count that can be added to owner's allotment. This way, no 1-3 prim adverts, but the land could still be worth something to those who already have larger parcels on a sim.

2) Limit L$/M^2 on plots below some level (say 64M^2). This way, no charging L$999999 for a 16M^2 plot. These tiny plots are not being sold for the view, or for what has been built on them, so they should not command a rediculous premium. From what I saw when I was shopping for land, something in the range of L$20 / M^2 would still be generous.

I can think of a couple other things, but lets see what the rest of you think. In my short time in SL, I have seen some great looking places, some that while not attractive to my eye certainly took some talent to design. Then I have seen some great ugly warts that deserve to be made "destructable" and have some sim demolitions applied liberally!

Think of it this way.

The mainland as just a really, really big private estate. Simply read the covenant on mainland parcels.

What? Not much there you say? Exactly correct. It's anarchy in many ways if not most.

Some like anarchy, some don't.

Whatever your interests, your best bet is to find a group of like-minded people and strike out for the new frontier, leaving the land of 16m advert parcels far behind you.

The Lindens have turned a blind eye to these extortion schemes for years, and I don't ever expect them to get a backbone on this issue. The complete disregard that the Lindens show in the face of this kind of land extortion, no matter how much anyone screams, is why I will NEVER buy mainland property or become a Premium member.

Choose a better landlord, or become one yourself. The Lindens don't care about their tenants half as much as many of the good private sim owners that I know of. My sim owner won't allow this kind of crap, and as his Estate manager, neither will I.

This is a huge copout. What is YOUR answer Linden Labs? If I had wanted to hear from the residents I would have asked them. So by doing this I guess the official answer is "You are screwed!" Thanks.

I know it's an old suggestion, but if everyone boycotted these land extortionists, they land tier they're saddled with would eventually force them to dump their portfolio of extortion plots. Quite how long it would take before they start hurting is anyone's guess.

It is just a sad unfortunate side result of being able to cash out game money for real money.

Some people just have no morals - and as there's good money to be made in "advertising plots" then as long as there is no reason to stop, they will continue to do so.

I used to have a few 16sqm advertising plots myself, when I had spare tier, but always made them fit in with the surrounding area. One was underwater, so I made a tiny buoy that bobbed about in the water and a sign on the top of there, so although it was advertising, it wasn't entirely obtrusive like the big spammy rotating full bright illuminated sparkly "LAND FOR SALE" signs.

I don't understand the 'land for sale' signs anyway, whenever I've sold land in the past, I first offered it to the neighbours before going through the hassle of putting it for sale, and one of the first things I do every morning is to use the map and look for land in my region for sale in case it's something I need, or one of my friends nearby might want. Surely these simple things aren't rocket science and would do away with a lot of the problems that legitimate land sales have been tarred with because of the spammers.

I enjoy the mainland because it's *my* land, not rented from someone else and following their rules (although I do nothing to disturb the peace of my neighbours). The only way I will ever have land on an island is because I own a whole sim, but as I do not participate in the economy side of SL giving me little way of hoping to recover/offset the costs, I can't see myself having $195 a month disposable income for a computer game for quite the forseeable future.

Lewis

I made this proposal a while back to reduce land extortion.

Prop: 1529 - Zero prim allocation in a sim if you own less than a total of 128sqm in the sim
http://secondlife.com/vote/vote.php?get_id=1529

Id say if the owners of 90% or more of the land in a mainland sim say that some builds are really disturbing, the sim owner, aka LL, should make some kind of intervention. In RL you cant just build whatever you want, you need permissions to build things, why should we not have in SL some kind of limitations as well? At least stopping the very annoying things.

Thats actually good

This is really sad.But its a sad reminder that some issues are just not not being dealt with these days....Some are some are not.....I do feel your pain al.

I don't know if you can modify proposals, but I think it would be better if it was for a total of *contiguous* 128 sqm. Otherwise they'll just get enough 16sqm plots in one sim and still annoy the hell out of us.

But 16 sq/m is enough for me to place a simple vending machine or kiosk. Lots of people do this - or do gain themselves a teleport point that isn't the main one for the region.

Somehow I don't think Prop. 1529 is going anywhere any time soon.

The ideal solution to land extortion wouldnt hurt any legitimate land users such as yourself, so it would be interesting to know how many business owners do use 16sqm plots on the mainland without anything annoying to their neighboors.
This was my analysis on the thread about the proposition:


Prop: 1529 - Zero prim allocation in a sim if you own less than a total of 128sq meters in the sim
http://secondlife.com/vote/vote.php?get_id=1529

This would make life much harder for land extortionists who like to buy tiny plots of land, set up objects designed to annoy their neighbours (remember those impeach Bush signs or massive particle emitters), and sell the land for an exorbitant price
It will also reduce billboards making the landscape a nicer place.

It shouldn't hurt most people who are not extortionists as they usually own 128 or more land in sims where they own land.

This wont hurt people who rent small pieces of land as their prim allocation comes from the owner who usually owns more than 128sqm in the sim.

They still could do that, but they had to pay much more tier ( x8 ) to cover a lot of sims, or just limit that on some sims. That would anyway just cost them more for the same effect and maybe it would just not be worth the money.

I would make it even more limiting like you have to own at least one parcel of 256 sqm to get prims.

That sounds like advertisement plots, I find them nearly annoying as the extortion plots. Imagine all would do that and putting some chatty vendors ( JEVN anyone? ) there. SL would be a junkyard of spamming objects. People should start using serious systems to promote stuff instead of spam systems.