I must be seriously misunderstanding perms. Help?!

The last couple of days have been an exercise in frustration for me.

I'm making furniture, and finally have some designs I think might sell. I decide to finally take the plunge and figure out sit poses for them. Here I run into a mess.

I want to sell my stuff as mod/copy. If I understand how perms work, then every part of the item, including the poses, must have full perms to allow this. I tested this by using a freebie no-modify pose on an item and selling it to my alt - sure enough, all perms were removed when she bought it.

I decided to look up making my own poses - found "Blender" in the Wikipedia (don't have the money right now for the other programs, maybe down the line somewhere I will). It sounds like it will take a while to learn. I will do that eventually. I decide that for now I will buy some poses.

With the searches being down, I go to SLExchange. To my surprise, I can find ONE set of sit poses for furniture that advertises full perms, with a comment from a buyer that they are not in fact full perm, that they had problems when trying to sell items made with them (the comment is now gone from the ad, which makes me distrust the seller even more).

Okay, so I have a conflict here. Tons of people sell furniture with sit poses, lots of them at low prices, lots with mod/copy perms set. Are all these people learning the seemingly highly complicated skill of making their own poses, just to sell for practically nothing? Why are there not lots of people selling sit poses with full perms? It seems like there would be a huge demand for it if they are hard to make.

I have come to the conclusion that I am totally misunderstanding the perms required for resale or the difficulty of creating poses. Either I can somehow give mod/copy rights on things with non-full perm parts, or making my own poses is easy and I just can't see it. So, tell me folks, which area am I being totally dense about?

BTW, I am learning a lot from reading these forums. Thanks to all the people who answer questions here!

It sounds to me that you understand both concepts fairly well, and SL may be experiencing another Permissions Bug. It used to be things you got were full perm when they weren't supposed to be. Now it seems the opposite is happening. I'd suggest a bit of testing, and if it is indeed broken, bug report it. Make a simple three prim heap, throw a full perm pose into one of the prims, link them, and sell/give to your alt with all three permission boxes checked. If the alt can't Modify or copy the item, bug report it and document exactly what you did.

Hi sweetie,
IM me in the game. I have several "female sit poses" with full perms. Most work for guys too. I've also picked up freebie pose packs from a few different places as well. I just have to look into inventory to find everything and Darn if WEBSENSE won't let me play at work. ROFL!!!

I'll be on for a bit 2nite, but you can try this weekend too. I'll shoot you some stuff. ~winx~

Don't use Blender, use Avimator. Doing full animations is a lot of work, but still poses are cake, give it a try. If you need help with the details (eg. what settings to use when uploading) ask in the Animation forum.

Selling furniture as mod/copy sounds a little strange? Usually if you want to buy a dining table with chairs you buy the table once, and then 4 chairs (assuming you wanted 4 of them ).

If you have a chair (just an example ) you made that you want to sell, it will most likely consist of three things:

1) The chair (you'll have full permissions for that since you made it)
2) A poseball script (you need copy and transfer permissions for it, but not necessarily mod)
3) The animation (same as with the scripts, copy and transfer are required, mod isn't)

If you want the buyer to end up with a mod/copy/no transfer copy when they buy it:

Rez the chair in world, right click it and set the next owner permissions to M/C/NT. Next, with edit linked parts, click on the prim that has the pose script and animation in it, then set the same permissions on those as you did before, they don't automatically take the next owner permissions of the prim they're in.

When you sell that to your alt, it will show in inventory as either mod/copy/no transfer, but no mod/copy/no transfer is also possible. The latter will happen if either the script, or the animation were sold as no mod, but this doesn't affect the ability to modify the *prims* of the chair.

The permissions that are shown for an object are always the most restrictive ones, even though they don't necessarily apply to the prims themselves, but the contents of them. If you put a no copy pose in a full permission chair, that chair turns into no copy as long as it has the pose in its inventory, because if you could copy the chair, you'll have copied the animation inside of it, which is something you weren't supposed to be able to.

I hope that made sense and didn't just confuse you further .

There are poses being sold with full permission, the problem is that quite a lot of people forget to change the next owner permission on the poses when they resell them with their own creations. Most of the "freebie" poses I've gotten passed to me later turned out to be "for sale" poses that were simply being distributed around as freebies.

You can't give mod/copy rights if your chair or anything inside the chair has nomod or nocopy somewhere inside. That includes the animations, sounds, scripts, anything inside the root prim or any of the non-root prims. From your post I see that it seems to be that you just don't have full rights on the animations. So you either have to buy some or make them yourself which IS pretty easy to do in avimator.

No, that's not quite true..

Basically.. when an object is rezzed in world and edited, SL accounts for the individual permissions of each bit you're editing. But.. when the object is listed in inventory, you can't get at the individual bits of it, so any operation you did on the object would have to affect all its parts and so the permissions are displayed based on that.

It's been mentioned above already: if you put a no-copy animation inside a copy-ok chair, then the chair will show up as "no copy)" in inventory - in other words, you can't just copy the whole chair via the inventory window, as that would copy the animation too, which you can't do. But if you rez the chair in world, then you will still have copy permissions on the prims making up the chair, and in fact you can shift-drag a copy - but the animation will disappear from it in the process.

The same effect happens on quite a lot of scripted objects - they show up as no modify in inventory, because they contain no modify scripts, but in fact their prim models can be modified.

So.. if you want to sell a modifyable chair you can go ahead and put a no-mod animation into the chair! Yes, it will show up as "no modify" in inventory, but the prims of the chair are actually still modify-ok, it's only the animation that cannot be modified (and in fact, I'm not sure exactly how you can modify an animation in-world anyway). So the buyer will still be able to modify the shape of the chair.

Mod animations can be renamed, no-mod animations can't .

The furniture can remain modifable even if the poses inside are not.

Make an object. Drop a no mod animation inside. Edit the object and mark it as "modifiable." Transfer this object to another avatar. The new avatar will see it as "no mod" in their inventory, but when they rez it, they should be able to mod the object.

In order to copy the object however, all components must be copiable.

I sell lots of objects which are modifiable with no mod scripts inside. It works.

Wow, this forum is on the ball! I really didn't expect so many responses so soon.

I can now see where I was confused, and I have possible solutions to my problems.

I want to sell my furniture with mod since avatars come in so many sizes. I am currently working on some fairly delicate-looking pieces, was worried that the items would be too small for some avs. (Actually, some of the macho types might not want to be seen using them, lol!) They also might look good in a setting for "tinies", but be too large in the size I sell them. Maybe I'm trying to appeal to too wide an audience, so to speak?

I'm not sure about the copy factor. I guess I feel like some things you need more than one of, but maybe I'm feeling too generous, and should really just include a number of copies in a set where they are needed (i.e. dining chairs).

Jax, that was a very sweet offer. You may be hearing from me later. Never too proud to turn down freebies. I have a few full-mod freebies, but I'm very picky. I don't want to sell items with poses where parts go into the furniture if the body is positioned right (just too creepy), and I won't use a pose where body parts go into each other. Some of those freebies where the hands get inserted into the lap need to be marked mature! /jk

It gets very exhausting trying out/adjusting poses, doesn't it? Especially when you are just learning how the numbers affect things. After about 10 hours of work, I finally found 4 that were "right", so thinking the perms were a problem bout sent me over the edge.

Kitty, thank you so much for that detailed explanation. It took me a couple of readings, but eventually the concept got through my thick skull (it doesn't help that I need sleep more than SL right now, but I know you other addicts understand). I have been working only with "no mod" poses, so I am going to try what you suggested. Thanks also to the others who replied in the same vein - you helped make it clearer for me.

For those that recommended Avimator, thanks so much! Guess I didn't do enough research. I will be trying that out later, probably today. The prospect of learning another new program is a bit daunting, but may be worth it to get what I want. (I am just starting to get the hang of Gimp. I have been casually using Photopaint for many years, so learning a totally different system is hard. Never touched a layer till recently.)

My faith in Capitalism is restored! Seeing what I thought was high demand for an item, but seeing no suppliers, was very disorienting. Thanks again, and you all take care.