Transcript for Robin Linden's office hour this week?

Wasn't Robin on holiday this week?

If she was, she came in to do the office meet.

Robin Linden: Hi1
Robin Linden: !
Sindy Tsure waves
Sindy Tsure: hi robin
Robin Linden: Good to see you all. I missed you last week.
Xara Epin: Hi Robin
Laetizia Coronet: so last week you decided to play hokie - or whatever the expression is
Robin Linden: /ao off
Robin Linden: No I was traveling last week and couldn't do it.
Laetizia Coronet: no problem, it was busy nonetheless
Robin Linden: What would be the best way to let you all know when that happens? I took it off the calendar...
Robin Linden: Did you have a good discussion?
Laetizia Coronet: it was on the calendar
Xara Epin: Robin, are you normally bald, or just going for the 'late-britney-look' this week? or is it merely SL that is taking its time to rez ?
Laetizia Coronet: well not really
Laetizia Coronet: Xara, it's SL, she is not bald
Xara Epin: okay
Robin Linden: hehe Xara - I think it's a rez problem
Laetizia Coronet: I have a question to start with
Robin Linden: great. And then I have a question for all of you.
Laetizia Coronet: been bumping into property lines again, hanging over roads. Can't that be helped, can't the road be cleared?
Laetizia Coronet: the roadS that is
Laetizia Coronet: on the mainland
Vladimir Rakosi is Online
Robin Linden: if the road is on Linden land, as it should be, then that shouldn't happen. The best thing to do would be to let Guy Linden know -- he's the land manager.
Khamon Fate: I think Jarod kept a copy of last weeks discussion. I'll ask him to send it to you.
Robin Linden: Maybe send him the coordinates.
Robin Linden: Thanks Khamon.
Laetizia Coronet: ok, thanks
Robin Linden: BTW - I gave your name to Philip as someone he should chat with.
Laetizia Coronet: road travel is hard
Laetizia Coronet: my name or Khamon's ?
Khamon Fate: chat about what?
Robin Linden: Welcome Lectra, Chaley. Thanks for coming
Robin Linden: Khamon's.
Lectra Forte: Thank you.
Chaley May: tnx
Robin Linden: Would you like me to give him your name too?
Robin Linden: I'm happy to do that.
Lilleth Lassard is Offline
Laetizia Coronet: not unless you think it could be useful, I am always happy to help
Lilleth Lassard is Online
Robin Linden: Let's see if he gets to the people on his list, and if so, then we can expand it.
Robin Linden: So here's my question for you.
Khamon Fate drumrolls
Sindy Tsure didn't expect a test!
Xara Epin: ll
Laetizia Coronet: lol
Xara Epin: if you fail, your account will be ceased
Robin Linden: I'm considering the possibility of introducing some sort of way for Residents to become more involved in helping us to manage the world.
Robin Linden: But I don't want to create vigilantes or a Resident police force.
Joni Vargas is Online
Laetizia Coronet: wow, I have been thinking that too
Chaley May: Vigilantes like me.....
Sindy Tsure has suggested resident triage a number of times on the forums
Robin Linden: Do you think it's possible to use some sort of system, a la YouTube content reporting, to help to manage problems with pornography and other inappropriate content?
Chaley May: YouTube content reporting dont work
Sindy Tsure: for everybody or for a
Laetizia Coronet: definitely, and a group like the Helpers or Mentors to do it
Sindy Tsure: 'qualified' set of residents?
Robin Linden: It would mean we'd need to improve clarity of the policies, but more important, it would mean that we'd have to agree as a community about what is considered socially responsible.
Chaley May: reports rely too heavily on the people recieving the reports doing something which means a lot of work
Khamon Fate: Mentors and Helpers are not necessarily qualified beyond having not having ever been suspended.
Laetizia Coronet: well you will need some srt of enforcing and to do that you need 'patroling'
Khamon Fate: I'm sorry, was that too blunt?
Robin Linden: Chaley - why do you think YouTube content reporting doesn't work?
Laetizia Coronet: I meant, Khamon, volunteers organized along those lines
Robin Linden: Not at all Khamon. I'm not sure we want to isolate such a system to one group of residents, either.
Laetizia Coronet: not too blunt, I got stuck in lag
Robin Linden: I'd like to see everyone participate.
Gao Niangao: well, this reminds me of the "tagging" discussion at Ben's hour: seems the credibility of the source of tagging or content reporting could accrue as tags/reports are confirmed--by others, or by "authorities"
Tao Takashi: good evening
Chaley May: I think power should be divided between land owners in sims and they can decide how to police their sims.. Using voting systems and more land means more voting power
Sindy Tsure: would this be people looking at specific areas or just flagging things they see as they explore sl?
Laetizia Coronet: hi Tao
Robin Linden: Hi Tao! Welcome Gao
MRE Bringholf is Online
Robin Linden: Well here's the problem.
Robin Linden: We're coming under increasing pressure to be compliant with various RL laws, which change by country.
Tao Takashi: always only problems....
Khamon Fate: I like the way YouTube works. I've yet to stumble across a restricted video because the commuuuuunity has already tagged it "adult"
Robin Linden: We need to figure out how to respond. If we let landowners decide, and they choose to break the law, then we're all at risk.
Robin Linden: That's what I thought, Khamon.
Laetizia Coronet: You need compliance with the TOS plain and simple
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Lectra Forte often wondered how you can work with trying to deal with every country's law.
Laetizia Coronet: and to get that, you'll need to have eyes in-world
Tao Takashi: but do people not more like search only for "adult"?
Tao Takashi: likely even
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Khamon Fate: Gao, tagging ever item with whatever random terms we create for the puposes of clarifying search will only muddle search worse than it is
Laetizia Coronet: and I'll go further and make them unrecognizeable
Laetizia Coronet: so, no group title or anything
Khamon Fate: But tagging areas as adultonly, that single option, is much more straightforward and effective
Chaley May: You should write in TOS that each individual is legally responsible for obeying their own countrys laws whenever they play SL.. should they choose not to then they will be banned from SL.
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Laetizia Coronet: you know I saw the child porn vid. I'd love to get at those types but not with a visible 'police' tag somewhere
Tao Takashi: but what if somebody does something which is allowed in their own country and somebody else from another country stumbles upon it?
Khamon Fate: That's the point Tao, the global community will protect itself as a whole.
Tao Takashi: media might be searching for such stuff, apparently they do already
Chaley May: Then that person from the other country can move on
Gao Niangao: Khaman, sorry, I wasn't saying that "tagging" and "content reporting" were the same semantics, but that both could use "accrued credibility metrics" on the sources.
Laetizia Coronet: well then we must search for it as well
Sindy Tsure: this is just to flag stuff that should be marked adult, right? or is this for other possible ToS/CS violations?
Tao Takashi: did anybody actually notice that there was a lot of protest against child pornography in the german sims? just wondering
Laetizia Coronet: I volunteer here and now
Robin Linden: one option would be to identify content which is illegal in a country, and then restrict that country's citizens from that parcel
Khamon Fate: This "better" world will not be bound by lines of country but will honour and respect all people's sense of desency.
Robin Linden: YouTube does that now.
Laetizia Coronet: Khamon, that is a very wide definition
Tao Takashi: sounds like more red lines across the continents
Tao Takashi: but I guess it's hard to do without those
Robin Linden: I think that's true with respect to child pornography Khamon. But we have differing ideas US vs Germany for example) about what constitutes child pornography.
Sindy Tsure: so people would have to get certified or something for their country's laws?
Laetizia Coronet: yep, here legal age is 16 for example
Robin Linden: In addition there are other sorts of things. Google was telling me about a problem they had with a negative video about the King of Thailand.
Robin Linden: Apparently it's against the law to say bad things about the Thai king.
Khamon Fate: I suppose it would mean having our avs tagged per country.
Dragonfan Hooper: ;legal age here is 18
Robin Linden: So the video is still up, but anyone with a Thai IP address can't see it.
Tao Takashi: it means that somebody has to do the parcel tagging
Laetizia Coronet: well he's a fat bastard... oops
Khamon Fate: Or would it matter where we were? I sometimes log in from UK or HK
Tao Takashi: I wonder who might that be
Dragonfan Hooper: XD
Sindy Tsure: and google does that ip blacking?
Sindy Tsure: *blocking
Laetizia Coronet: but that's it Robin, you can block a shop with offensive stuff but not me saying it to Thai
Dragonfan Hooper: no child porn belongs on Sl or on youtube
Tao Takashi: for Google it's of course easier as you don't notice that something is missing eventually.. here you might notice if you cannot move further
Robin Linden: agreed Dragonfan.
Chaley May: its upto the thai people to choose not to see it
Tao Takashi: I remember the same thing happened often to flickr
Sindy Tsure: not according to the king
Laetizia Coronet: Is it up to SL to comply to such outlandish laws?
Tao Takashi: like the UAE blocked it here and then
Robin Linden: It's not up to Linden Lab to decide if the Thai law is a bad one.
Laetizia Coronet: Will we be like Google and offer a 'clean' service to any goon in any country
Khamon Fate: hm, good point Tao, Robin are we going to be able to mute everything associated with an av in some future release? It seems I read that somewhere recently.
Dragonfan Hooper: shouldn't there be stricter policies on Sl about child pornography on Sl
Xara Epin: I thought that legally SL should comply to laws of the US, since the grid is located there?
Dragonfan Hooper: to ban it at once
Robin Linden: Khamon - it's something we talked about. I don't know where it stands in development.
Laetizia Coronet: Robin frankly I think the Thai can create their own version of SL, totally cleansed by His Majesty's wishes. Please.
Khamon Fate: Here's a better question. Are you all wholly determined to not just ban child avatars from the grid period?
Robin Linden: We do have those policies Dragonfan.
Tao Takashi: so would many other countries need to do then though
Robin Linden: Why would we do that Khamon?
Dragonfan Hooper: would blood and gore pics on Sl be worse
Khamon Fate: It's one solution to the problem
Laetizia Coronet: Would you present5 Nazi Germany with a jew-free grid for the sake of business? Would uou say it's not up to LL to judge their laws?
Dragonfan Hooper: and a possible bannable offense on that
Robin Linden: Yes, but it's pretty extreme.
Chaley May: I think Lindens shouldnt be expected to do anything but ban people when Authorities say someone has broken their laws while in their country and did it knowingly.
Tao Takashi: it's not a real solution, why not ban all people from the grid becuase they can potentially do bad things?
Khamon Fate: You don't allow Nazi representations in any format whatsoever
Dragonfan Hooper: um nazi is not allowed on SL or anyone
Xara Epin: agreed Chaley
Khamon Fate: You don't allow real children to play SL on this grid at all
Dragonfan Hooper: becauser it's rude
Robin Linden: True, but some think that's a bad (and inconsistent) policy
Laetizia Coronet: my point is not nazi
Khamon Fate: You *can* simply not allow child representations as well
Laetizia Coronet: it is inconsistent
Chaley May: Lindens shouldnt have policys
Gao Niangao: well, and it wouldn't solve the child-porn problem, Khamon, just the child-*avatar*-porn problem.
Chaley May: its us who should have policys
Robin Linden: True Gao
Tao Takashi: what if I wanted to make a machinima video with a child in it?
Khamon Fate: It's not an inconsistent policy if it's the published policy
Ludo Merit: A lot of people like to play children for non-sexual reasons.
Dragonfan Hooper: you know when i was helping a place in another sim some kid av wanted sex with a adult av
Dragonfan Hooper: i was like ew
Morgen Paine gave you The Succubus.
Laetizia Coronet: thing is, why bend to Thailand?
Robin Linden: What did you do Dragonfan?
Laetizia Coronet: and where will the bending to despots stop?
Laetizia Coronet: (can I say despots?)
Dragonfan Hooper: i was just helpnig making some rules for a adoption agency for rules there and stuff
Robin Linden: Possibly because the alternative is to shut down those countries entirely.
Laetizia Coronet: Robin, so?
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Dragonfan Hooper: qwhen i was making the ruels for this plac ei was at long time ago i was just trynig todo something for the better
Laetizia Coronet: Is that an incredible loss?
Khamon Fate: To me, shutting out entire countries of users is no less drastic than disallowing childish representations
Laetizia Coronet: Isn't that their problem, for them to solve?
Tao Takashi: well, somebody recently wanted to ban Germany from SL because of those laws.. I would find that a loss to me personally
Ludo Merit: I think the Lindens have a complex mess to handle, and becomign super rigid about one thing at a time is not a comprehensive answer.
Robin Linden: It could be. What if we just decide to shut down the EU because we don't agree about some point of the law?
Vladimir Rakosi is Online
Sindy Tsure: seems a little harsh
Laetizia Coronet: you don't have to shut down anyone or anything
Tao Takashi: It would help competitors though to gain momentum if you do that anyway
Dragonfan Hooper: well the baby avs who wear diapers is very disturbing
Laetizia Coronet: they will decide to shut you out if need be
Xara Epin: the key is to ban people who violate the TOS and local laws - not their entire countries.
Armian Ariantho: is it not enouph to help the police to trace child-pornography
Tao Takashi: ban all those with bad press
Robin Linden: hehe Tao. That's tempting.
Khamon Fate: Perhaps y'all should send some volunteers to these countries to talk with their law makers for a week or two at a time.
Laetizia Coronet: Competitors! Give me an effin BREAK! So that means 1.3 billion CHinese are so much business we don't care about their system and bend to it?
Robin Linden: I thought about that Khamon. We may do something like that.
Khamon Fate waves hands wildly in the air
Robin Linden: Well we could be selective Laetizia.
Robin Linden: Khamon?
Khamon Fate: I *do* like the idea of allowing us to "rate" parcels as adult
Khamon Fate: oh i'm just volunteering
Chaley May: Lindens hsouldnt be policing SL it should be the residents.. as long as your considering any kind of restricting content for people then you will be expected to be consistent and react to allsorts of diffeent requirements from all countrys... You should be nothing more than a gateway to an online environment where residents police each other
Dragonfan Hooper: maybe bumpnig up sims frmo mature to adult
Tao Takashi: as long as it's not lawyers who police it...
Laetizia Coronet: hell no Khamon, I want no Xtian fanatic cruying over the nipples in my shop.
Xara Epin: I really can't wrap my head around the whole fact, that LL has to comply with rules and laws, of the individual residents country, rather than the US laws, since you run the servers and platform - then it should be people themself, that ensures they comply to local laws. and if they don't, they are to be blamed, not LL.
Chaley May: If a country wants its people to obey laws while in SL then they will have to provide the people to do that
Laetizia Coronet: yes Xara - their laws, their problem
Khamon Fate: Laetizia, it would be a composite rating, like forum threads ratings go from high to low as an average.
Robin Linden: It's a really tough issue Xara. The regulators don't necessarily agree with you.
Gao Niangao: hmmm... actually... if LL is a "common carrier" as ITU sees it... it can't be held responsible for content
Tao Takashi: get one of these regulators in here!
Sindy Tsure: but they own all the servers gao
Khamon Fate: If LL's going to be a common carrier though, they've gotta back out of community support altogether
Robin Linden: Hi Squirrel - have a seat and join us!
Xandra Wildcat is Online
Robin Linden: Welcome Beyers
Beyers Sellers: hi Robin
Sindy Tsure waves to squirrel
Xara Epin: Robin, that is outrageuous. but out of our hands, I guess. So lets talk about what we CAN do then
Beyers Sellers: hi all
Squirrel Wood: Yellow ^^
Ludo Merit: Yea Xara
Angel Nohkan is Online
Dragonfan Hooper: you know i brought up a few issues with char linden this morning
Khamon Fate claps for char
Robin Linden: so back to the idea of working together to define what we want the world to be like, and to create a "socially responsible" environment
Ludo Merit: RIght
Robin Linden: Is that something you think Linden Lab should manage, or do you think we can find a way to get everyone involved?
Laetizia Coronet: Right, socially - not financially
Robin Linden: Should it only apply to the mainland, or also to private islands?
Chaley May: a socially responsible environment would be policed by land owners.. they have more to lse and provide the content so let them police SL
Dragonfan Hooper: well i believe the mentors and the lindens should work together as a team and get assignments done faster and more easier to work with
Squirrel Wood: /ao off
Ludo Merit: Daniel says he'd like to see the residents do as much as possible.
Robin Linden: That's always been our stance.
Beyers Sellers: I would think Linden would want to facilitate social responsibility, but not impose it
Khamon Fate: Mainland only, LL *can* responably divert responsibility to estate owners for the content hosted there
Ludo Merit: Yea beyers
Sindy Tsure: but we know that residents aren't always responsible - can't just say 'everybody behave' and be done with it
Khamon Fate: That's still residentially based.
Laetizia Coronet: I think resident volunteers with a shortcut to a Linden would work well to patrol SL - all of SL
Beyers Sellers: perhaps just providing a "best practices" wiki devoted to that topic would work
Beyers Sellers: that way, people could choose to follow practices on their own land as they deem appropriate
Kamael Xevious: I would be immediately suspicious of any resident who volunteered to "police" Second Life.
Lectra Forte: but can LL really pass the responsibility down to islands without still havign some liability?
Vladimir Rakosi is Offline
Dragonfan Hooper: Linden and volunteer would make the community better by working together as friends instead of enemies
Laetizia Coronet: Kamael, why? They wouldn't have powers or weapons, just act as eyes
Chaley May: I dont really think using Mentors or Helpers to police SL is the way to go.. LL choosing people to do the job is just the same as doing it themselves and can eb unfair to those who dont get chosen
Robin Linden: Like I said - the goal is not to create police or vigilantes, but to build something we can all be proud of.
Robin Linden: That's a good way to put it Laetizia -- eyes
Beyers Sellers: Robin, how much do you guys worry about liability? (Lectra's concern)
Kamael Xevious: I've had bad experiences with watchdog groups before, Laetizia. I'm not anxious to repeat the experience.
Khamon Fate: Linden Lab should fork the buisiness into that which hosts the SL grid, that which hosts the Mainland estate, and that which develops the software.
Khamon Fate: Then the first *could* function as a common carrier only.
Robin Linden: We worry most about getting shut down, or having one of our officers arrested on criminal charges. Less about liability.
Kamael Xevious: THAT is a very good idea, Khamon.
Laetizia Coronet: Kamael, I see people working in silence, leaving judgement to LL an the ToS only
Squirrel Wood: I have seen and been involved in the colunteer helpers on the game furcadia. While it seems to work it's really turned into something that's not good for the population. while there is a lot of "helpers" registered, only few of them actually care about doing what they volunteered for. the majority just joined for the "power" the "job" brings with it but tend to not care about the responsibility.
Ludo Merit: Beyers idea is an example of one solution to what I see as the problem. We'd like to govern ourselves but every group I have seen that has tried to do it has found it difficult. We need reference aids, tool aids, enforcement possibilities.
Robin Linden: so Ludo, more tools?
Tao Takashi: won't the police of the individual countries not come in here themselves anyway like they also try to police the internet?
Beyers Sellers: interesting, squirrel. Is there a hierarchy that allows performance evaluation, so that not-so-helpful helpers can be dismissed/demoted?
Robin Linden: I think enforcement is a huge challenge.
Tao Takashi: but probably not for checking the TOS then
Kamael Xevious: Yes, Laetizia, and if they were all European, I could live with it. But we have this insane volunteer watchdog organization in the US called the MPAA that handles movie ratings... and it's an utter nightmare.
Ludo Merit: Yes
Gao Niangao: well... ultimately, LL may want to enforce some standards on Estates, too. Even Anshe Chung herself can't suddenly start wearing white robes and burning crosses without SL becoming a Place Nobody Would Want To Be.
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Robin Linden: a PNWWTB?
Ludo Merit: ?
Laetizia Coronet: yes Kamael, I know those. But my 'police' would not have power and just signal things for those 'above us'
Squirrel Wood: there is a hierarchy set up there. normal "helpers" and "elders". but they have virtually the same "powers" there.
Chaley May: I would like to see real life police coming into SL.. That could be fun
Khamon Fate: Has LL approached law enforcement organizations and asked them to create avs and help alert LL to possible violations?
Kamael Xevious: That's all the MPAA does, Laetizia.
Kitty Paisley is Online
Robin Linden: No Khamon.
Dragonfan Hooper: in my opinion there should be a NIMBY
Khamon Fate: Sorry, I mean RL law enforcement agencies
Kamael Xevious: It has no enforcement power either. Enforcement is through the National Association of Theater Owners.
Tao Takashi: I am not sure they would see it as their job to police SL or any game
Sindy Tsure: have you thought about that, robin? asking police to help?
Tao Takashi: unless it does not interfere with RL crimes
Khamon Fate: It'd be a show of good faith to ask them

Robin Linden: So here's my question for you.
Khamon Fate drumrolls
Sindy Tsure didn't expect a test!
Xara Epin: ll
Laetizia Coronet: lol
Xara Epin: if you fail, your account will be ceased
Robin Linden: I'm considering the possibility of introducing some sort of way for Residents to become more involved in helping us to manage the world.
Robin Linden: But I don't want to create vigilantes or a Resident police force.
Laetizia Coronet: wow, I have been thinking that too
Chaley May: Vigilantes like me.....
Sindy Tsure has suggested resident triage a number of times on the forums
Robin Linden: Do you think it's possible to use some sort of system, a la YouTube content reporting, to help to manage problems with pornography and other inappropriate content?
Chaley May: YouTube content reporting dont work
Sindy Tsure: for everybody or for a
Laetizia Coronet: definitely, and a group like the Helpers or Mentors to do it
Sindy Tsure: 'qualified' set of residents?
Robin Linden: It would mean we'd need to improve clarity of the policies, but more important, it would mean that we'd have to agree as a community about what is considered socially responsible.

I've got the log with zero formatting (from the chat.txt file) in a notecard but can't seem to paste it here, even with breaking it up into several posts..

The interesting part that Meade was likely looking for is towards the top...

Thank-you. We now know which community the "majority of the community" comment is referring to - the part of the community that visits Lindens during office hours.

Thank-you. We now know which community the "majority of the community" comment is referring to - the part of the community that visits Lindens during office hours.

"Robin Linden: It would mean we'd need to improve clarity of the policies, but more important, it would mean that we'd have to agree as a community about what is considered socially responsible."

This particular line got me thinking. The reason the U. S. obscenity laws function at all is that we don't have to agree as a mega-community. The whole point of community standards for federal obscenity violations is to accept and allow the idea that different communities will have different standards.

Second Life is no longer small enough to be considered a community. It's a collection of communities, and any proposal that doesn't treat it that way is at best going to destroy some of those otherwise harmless, profitable communities.

It's time for Linden Labs to acknowledge that there are really different communities in SL, that those communities want to have their own standards, and should be allowed to, within the limits of the law. This is a significant, important, necessary change in perspective that will affect both policies and technical issues. A "one size fits all" standard fits SL like a size 6 shoe fits on an elephant.