Pandora's Box
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Rock Vacirca
riches to rags
Join date: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,093
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04-04-2007 03:05
The recent threads on SL gambling have raised an aspect of SL that could have huge implications, affecting ALL aspects of SL activity. When the The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 was passed by Congress, Ginsu Linden, LL's lawyer, was quick to point out the following: From: someone A very brief, and therefore incomplete, description of the Act is that it prohibits *gambling businesses* from accepting *funds or credit* from *designated payment systems* for *unlawful Internet gambling*. Linden Lab does not operate a gambling business. Linden Lab is an interactive computer service provider of a simulated 3D environment, upon which users engage in activities of their own creation. Linden Dollars are not money, they are neither funds nor credit for funds. Linden Dollars represent a limited license right to use a feature of the simulated environment. Linden Lab does not offer any right of redemption for any sum of money, or any other guarantee of monetary value, for Linden Dollars. Linden Lab does not operate a designated payment system under the Act. The movement of Linden Dollars, like that of any virtual world asset, is a use of license rights in intellectual property. The Act does not specifically define whether the simulation of wagering in a virtual world environment is unlawful gambling - although to the extent it is, the Act supports the position that the unlawful gambling is conducted by the parties that place and accept the wager. Accordingly, the liability of the computer service provider is specifically limited under the Act. [Unquote] The above was a repitition of the position of LL back in July 2005, when Ginsu Linden emphasised the following: From: someone Linden Dollars are not real money. As noted in Section 1.4 of the terms of service, Linden Dollars represent your limited license right to use an aspect of Second Life, i.e. the aspect that simulates a real-world economy. Linden Lab does not provide any right of redemption for Linden Dollars - you cannot demand that Linden Lab provide you any sum of money in exchange for your Linden Dollars. Linden Dollars are a software license right, not money.
I should note here that there appears to be some confusion about Linden Lab's position as to whether Linden Dollars have value. It is undeniable that people are willing to pay money for Linden Dollars. People buy Linden Dollars from us, they buy Linden Dollars from each other - obviously, value can be attributed to Linden Dollars. In this sense, Linden Dollars obviously have value.
But this is a completely separate issue from whether or not Linden Lab will ever provide a right of redemption for Linden Dollars. We do not provide any right of redemption of Linden Dollars for monetary value. Along with Section 1.4, Sections 5.2 and 5.3 of the terms of service make clear that Linden Lab will not provide or guarantee any value for any data (including Linden Dollars) residing on our servers; and the service of Second Life is provided on an "as is" basis. [Unquote]
If investigations into SL conclude that there is a case for prosecution under the 2006 Internet Gambling Act, or that virtual profits ARE subject to IRS rules, then the disclaimers by LL in their TOS and in statements made by their lawyer (above) could be overturned by the US Courts. In other words, if Linden Dollars ARE deemed by the Courts to be *funds or credits* then the Internet Gambling Act 2006 applies, and the IRS would be quick to follow.
But what are the wider implications of all this?
Other TOS provisions (condensed, see the TOS for full details), such as:
1.6 Linden Lab has the right at any time for any reason or no reason to change and/or eliminate any aspect(s) of the Service as it sees fit in its sole discretion. 2.6 Linden Lab has the right at any time for any reason or no reason to suspend or terminate your Account, terminate this Agreement, and/or refuse any and all current or future use of the Service without notice or liability to you. In the event that Linden Lab suspends or terminates your Account or this Agreement, you understand and agree that you shall receive no refund or exchange for any unused time on a subscription, any license or subscription fees, any content or data associated with your Account, or for anything else.
and particularly provisions 5.3 - 5.5
5.3 All data on Linden Lab's servers are subject to deletion, alteration or transfer. When using the Service, you may accumulate Content, Currency, objects, items, scripts, equipment, or other value or status indicators that reside as data on Linden Lab's servers. THESE DATA, AND ANY OTHER DATA, ACCOUNT HISTORY AND ACCOUNT NAMES RESIDING ON LINDEN LAB'S SERVERS, MAY BE DELETED, ALTERED, MOVED OR TRANSFERRED AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON IN LINDEN LAB'S SOLE DISCRETION.
5.4 Linden Lab provides the Service on an "as is" basis, without express or implied warranties. LINDEN LAB PROVIDES THE SERVICE, THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND ALL OTHER SERVICES STRICTLY ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, PROVIDED AT YOUR OWN RISK, AND HEREBY EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, WRITTEN OR ORAL, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
5.5 Linden Lab's liability to you is expressly limited, to the extent allowable under applicable law.
IN NO EVENT SHALL LINDEN LAB OR ANY OF ITS SHAREHOLDERS, PARTNERS, AFFILIATES, DIRECTORS, OFFICERS, SUBSIDIARIES, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, SUPPLIERS, LICENSEES OR DISTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, PUNITIVE OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY DAMAGES FOR LOST PROFITS, ARISING (WHETHER IN CONTRACT, TORT, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE) OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SERVICE (INCLUDING ITS MODIFICATION OR TERMINATION), THE LINDEN SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT (INCLUDING ITS TERMINATION OR SUSPENSION) OR THIS AGREEMENT, WHETHER OR NOT LINDEN LAB MAY HAVE BEEN ADVISED THAT ANY SUCH DAMAGES MIGHT OR COULD OCCUR AND NOTWITHSTANDING THE FAILURE OF ESSENTIAL PURPOSE OF ANY REMEDY. IN ADDITION, IN NO EVENT WILL LINDEN LAB'S CUMULATIVE LIABILITY TO YOU FOR DIRECT DAMAGES OF ANY KIND OR NATURE EXCEED FIFTY DOLLARS (U.S. $50.00).
All the above provisions could be subject to challenge, if the US Courts determine that L$ = *funds or credits* . After all, when you deposit money into a bank, the actual money, i.e the bills with their serial numbers, is not maintained in your name, rather they are added to a pool of money, and your credits and funds are simply data on the bank's servers, this does not mean that your funds and credits are now 'virtual', they are very much 'real'.
If LL are managing real assets on their servers, rather than virtual assets, with the responsibility that that entails, it could generate a whole rethink of 'virtual' games. Residents could sue each other in real courts for breaches of contract. Residents could find themselves being arrested for theft or fraud, even if committed within a 'virtual' world. (I won't go down the road, however tempting, of discussing here the other possible 'virtual' offences that this could open the door to, such as virtual harrassment, virtual stalking, virtual indencency in a public place, virtual underage sex, virtual bestiality, virtual murder!!!).
So folks, keep you eye on this one. If SL casinos are held to be under the purview of the The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006, then this could just be the first chink of light coming from under the lid of Pandora's Box. What do YOU think?
Rock
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Barri Rossini
Registered User
Join date: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 46
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04-04-2007 03:58
Yes but in fact you can sell lindens for money, so this is total bull. Also when you GAMBLE thats the exchange of currency. Sex in SL is not real, the characters are not REAL, so its not rape/whatever. Contracts are not in SL, if they are and someone breaches/breaks it then simply mute/ban them (from your land and stores). My point is the gambling aspect is something, but the rest is not. In my opinion since I know nothing of law. If your harrased in SL there are ways to make it stop. But this does raise interesting aspects for lack of better word.
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Barri Rossini
Registered User
Join date: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 46
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04-04-2007 04:09
Also I suck, lol. I probably sound stupid. I also just read the TOS for the 1st time, pretty much leaves you in the crapper if something bad happens on there / or your end. Sadly its good for them and us, but bad for us at the same time. lol, I need to shuddup and go to work  Bye bye all, have fun SLing 
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AWM Mars
Scarey Dude :¬)
Join date: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,398
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04-04-2007 05:49
If you interpret 'Gambling' fully, it includes a large part of business, you speculate that the goods you invest time and money in will make you a profit or at least cover your costs.
As the L$ has an exchange value with a RL currency which is quoted, therefore when exchanged, it has a value attached which makes it a currency in what ever form you care to devise. Only 'currencies' that are bound fully by the very game it exists in, can be considered 'monopoly money'. If you visit the prolification of websites that buy and sell 'ingame money/goods' there is a very large proportion of games that fall under the 'real money' bracket. Any speculative market/operation could be considered gambling in one sense or another in the truest sense.
I am no 'slot machine, or casino table' gambler, but I am a gambler in all the business's I run, as I speculate on an outcome with regards to gains over monies invested. Does this gambling law include goverment sponsored Lotto's?
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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04-04-2007 07:23
Its really simple.
Linden Labs has done what they can to protect THEMSELVES from gambling prosecution. Passing any federal probe love onto the SL casino owners.
So we dont need to worry bout LL they are just a service/ hosting provider!
thinking they are gonna risk their company future for SL Casino Owners?
HAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHA
HAHA
ha
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Har Fairweather
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
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04-04-2007 07:34
I'm no lawyer but seems to me LL is in the clear - they are not running the gambling operations, after all, or doing anything to encourage them. Gambling is just a possibility on their platform that some residents have taken advantage of. (BTW I personally think it's dumb to gamble in any way on-line - too easy to rig the games.)
It is the participating residents who are doing the gambling. I wonder what their liability is, if any.
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Vale Vieria
The Devil Herself
Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 228
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04-04-2007 08:13
It might be worth pointing out that none of the Lindens were engaging in age play, but it still had to go.
Vale
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Gummi Richthofen
Fetish's Frasier Crane!
Join date: 3 Oct 2006
Posts: 605
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04-04-2007 08:22
Conversely, real money these days exists in two forms: banknotes and equivalent physical manifestations constitute one form - and accounts with amounts in, maintained on a computer, are the other form. Wells Fargo and friends could adopt the Linden Defence and just turn all their machines off one day and walk home... the reason they don't is, they realise that the legislature won't stand for it.
I personally went through a loophole-exploitation process with many similarities to this one, in the UK in the 80's. Basically, the rule is, you never get away with it for long: the sign that you've thought up something new and smart is when they close the loophole on you. In my case it was a trick to substitute (low) Capital Gains Tax for (high) Income Tax on interest earned on deposits - by my reckoning LL have at least an order of magnitude to grow before they get close to the impact we had, so they may have a few more years to enjoy the delusion...
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Amity Slade
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 2,183
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04-04-2007 08:26
Linden Labs does not exempt itself from the law by claiming that it is exempt from the law.
And they may state that they have no liability from damaging me when I use their service in the way they specify, but again they cannot exempt themselves from liability merely by saying that they aren't responsible.
Those are two important general points. In this particular case, though, if they are cooperating with the FBI, they aren't going to get in trouble over the gambling. That decision may not necessarily be based on whether or not they think they are incompliance with the law, but based more on the determination that litigation of the issue would be more trouble than it's worth.
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Rock Vacirca
riches to rags
Join date: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,093
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04-04-2007 09:13
From: Gummi Richthofen Conversely, real money these days exists in two forms: banknotes and equivalent physical manifestations constitute one form - and accounts with amounts in, maintained on a computer, are the other form. Wells Fargo and friends could adopt the Linden Defence and just turn all their machines off one day and walk home... the reason they don't is, they realise that the legislature won't stand for it.
I personally went through a loophole-exploitation process with many similarities to this one, in the UK in the 80's. Basically, the rule is, you never get away with it for long: the sign that you've thought up something new and smart is when they close the loophole on you. In my case it was a trick to substitute (low) Capital Gains Tax for (high) Income Tax on interest earned on deposits - by my reckoning LL have at least an order of magnitude to grow before they get close to the impact we had, so they may have a few more years to enjoy the delusion... I remember a court case in the UK a number of years ago, where some illegal drug makers (LSD) successfully argued in the High Court that the police were exceeding their authority in confiscating their suitcase full of money under the bed, by claiming that the legislation talked of the right of the police to confiscate 'money' but that banknotes were NOT money! Banknotes are IOUs for money, issued by banks (I promise to pay the Bearer, on demand, the sum of five Pounds). The Court ordered the return of the banknotes. Most legislation in the West concerning gambling tries to avoid legal loopholes by banning gambling that uses anything 'of value'. It need not be money that exchanges hands. The very fact that L$ can be converted in and out of US$ weakens the arguement that L$ is not real money, despite the LL assertion that when you 'buy' L$ you are really getting them for free, and what you are paying for is a licensed right to use them (only a lawyer could have come up with that kind of notion). Against that arguement is that many things can be traded for US$, including gold, oil, corn, art, etc, but that does not make them 'money'. I think the Courts will take a sensible view on this. The fact that they are called Linden 'Dollars', are quoted on an 'exchange', the use of the words 'You have 'paid' L$10 to upload this image...' etc etc, seriously weakens the arguement that L$ is not money. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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04-04-2007 09:39
From: Gummi Richthofen Conversely, real money these days exists in two forms: banknotes and equivalent physical manifestations constitute one form - and accounts with amounts in, maintained on a computer, are the other form. Wells Fargo and friends could adopt the Linden Defence and just turn all their machines off one day and walk home... the reason they don't is, they realise that the legislature won't stand for it. This is not true at all. A bank note is a binding contract between the bank and the holder - promissory note, of established and agreed value, and payable to the bearer on demand. A bank note is considered a legal form of currency and can be used as money. Wells Fargo cannot turn off their machines and walk home. They have an obligation under law to honor their contract with the holder. Linden Lab has clearly established, in its contract with us, that Linden Dollars have no intrinsic value and they have stated they are not currency. They have done a fine job of making this distinction clearly, thoroughly, and unambiguously. The only value that a Linden Dollar has, is the value ascribed by other players who may wish to trade real currency for it. This is no different than the value of a rare painting or an hour of my time.
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Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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Susanne Pascale
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 371
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04-04-2007 09:59
I AM a lawyer, but this is not my field of experise. For what its worth [nothing, absolutely nothing] here's my take on this. I think everyone is worried over nothing. First, I think LL has covered themselves pretty well and shielded themselves from liability, which is a good thing. Its good for LL and good for the rest of us. Some individual casino operators, who residi in the US might have some problems. The question is how much? I know very little about the gambling industry in SL. I dont gamble in RL and I don't gamble in SL. So far, I have visited one casino and that was just because there was a live music performance I wanted to hear going on. My overall impression that few of these places take in enough money to justify any major criminal investigation. I could be wrong on that, but who knows?
I would think that after looking into it, the FBI or the IRS or whoever would decide they have bigger fish to fry. Its possible they may go after one or two just to make examples of them but basically I think this would be serious overkill.
I am totally ambivilent about the gambling thing. I don't indulge and I have heard anecdotally that the casinos can be at least a low grade annoyance, especially if located near your home or business. I don't care one way or another what happens to gambling here. If it were eliminated, it might improve the quality of life for many of us here but I am not advocating that. I don't see this gambling issue either endangering LL or effecting the quality of life of the average resident. That's my 2 L$ worth!
OH!! hi Persophone!! I LOVE the glasses I bought from you. I get more compliments on them and my b/f even likes them!!
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Darkness Anubis
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,628
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04-04-2007 10:05
What I am curious about is what stand is finally taken on games like slingo and tringo. These might well be considered gambling of a sorts. In the US anyways Bingo is certainly regulated. The elimination of such games might well have a huge impact on many aspects of SL both economic and social.
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Dnali Anabuki
Still Crazy
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,633
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04-04-2007 10:16
It might not be about the amount of money that encourages an act on the part of the authorities, but the need to set a precedent to go after the larger internet gambling sites that could exist in the future if SL does presage the 3D web.
As for the IRS, they are going to want to set it up pretty clearly that profits gained from virtual work/property are taxable now before the amounts get out of hand.
They might want to be ahead of the curve this time.
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2k Suisei
Registered User
Join date: 9 Nov 2006
Posts: 2,150
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04-04-2007 10:46
From: Colette Meiji Its really simple.
Linden Labs has done what they can to protect THEMSELVES from gambling prosecution. Passing any federal probe love onto the SL casino owners.
So we dont need to worry bout LL they are just a service/ hosting provider!
thinking they are gonna risk their company future for SL Casino Owners?
HAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHA
HAHA
ha ha
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Uvas Umarov
Phone Weasel Advocate
Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 622
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04-04-2007 11:21
From: Persephone Milk This is not true at all.
A bank note is a binding contract between the bank and the holder - promissory note, of established and agreed value, and payable to the bearer on demand. Well a promissory note has three things a date or on demand stipulation, an amount, and the thing being promised. So on a US dollar note we have an on demand stipulation, amount-whatever is on the piece of paper, and the thing being promised-in this case a "dollar". What is a dollar? It is a unit of weight, usually reserved for precious metals. 371 grains of weight. So a US dollar bill promises one dollar of what? It doesn't specify. A dollar of silver? A dollar of gold? A dollar of milk? Therefore it fails as a promissory note. It is simply fiat currency, value being placed on it by legislation. I never looked at a British pound, but I'll bet doughnuts to dollars  , that its wording is some similar claptrap.
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