Second Life Forums Archive - Chat Transcripts as Evidence

Ewan Glenelg

Registered User

Join date: 9 Nov 2006

Posts: 9

03-09-2007 13:18

Has anyone had a situation where a chat transcript (in a notecard) was being used as evidence of bad business practices or improper behavior?

Has anyone later found out the the transcript was forged, falsified, or edited?

I personally contend that there is no real way to authenticate a chat transcript, especially one in a notecard, and that it's easy to "put words in someone's mouth" by editing the transcript in Word, or some other word processing program, and then pasting the results into a notecard. Chat transcripts in notecards cannot be depended on for accuracy.

What does anyone else think on this issue?

Thanks.

=Ewan

Colette Meiji

Registered User

Join date: 25 Mar 2005

Posts: 15,556

03-09-2007 13:21

From: Ewan Glenelg

Has anyone had a situation where a chat transcript (in a notecard) was being used as evidence of bad business practices or improper behavior?

Has anyone later found out the the transcript was forged, falsified, or edited?

I personally contend that there is no real way to authenticate a chat transcript, especially one in a notecard, and that it's easy to "put words in someone's mouth" by editing the transcript in Word, or some other word processing program, and then pasting the results into a notecard. Chat transcripts in notecards cannot be depended on for accuracy.

What does anyone else think on this issue?

Thanks.

=Ewan

People use chat logs all the time as fuel for drama - Technically its against the TOS

Evidence? I dont see how - you can edit any chat log you make before you send the notecard.

Could doctor the whole convo up to make someone "guilty" even if they arent.

Livinda Goodliffe

Squeaky Wheel

Join date: 28 Dec 2005

Posts: 215

Evidence???

03-09-2007 13:25

Like Colette said, it's way to easy to forge one to be used as evidence. Anyone with 3rd grade education could figure out how to.

Ronin Arnaz

Registered User

Join date: 6 Jun 2005

Posts: 41

03-09-2007 13:46

Screenshots or it didn't happen. Even then, it still might not have happened.

Ceera Murakami

Texture Artist / Builder

Join date: 9 Sep 2005

Posts: 7,750

03-09-2007 15:03

The only value of a chatlog, or even a screen shot of a chat log, is as a starting point from which Linden Lab can go directly to their own servers and download/verify the alleged conversation took place. Anything else can readily be forged.

_____________________

Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.

Desmond Shang

Guvnah of Caledon

Join date: 14 Mar 2005

Posts: 5,250

03-09-2007 15:06

Do not read chatlogs without consent from all parties involved, inworld.

_____________________

Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!

Ewan Glenelg

Registered User

Join date: 9 Nov 2006

Posts: 9

Thank You

03-09-2007 15:39

Thank you all for your input and for confirming my suspicions.

Desmond, thank you for your suggestion. I agree. All parties should consent to the reading of a chatlog - otherwise it's a hotbed for gossip, drama, and bad communication.

Ronin, you're right, even screenshots can put taken into PhotoShop and doctored.

Ceera, does that mean, should it be necessary, the actual text of a convo could be retrieved if needed from the Linden servers?

There's a lot of drama going on right now in the sims where I hang out, and people being hurt because of it. It's not the SL I signed on for originally. I wish people would grow up.

Collette and Livinda - thanks for being there.

=Ewan

Colette Meiji

Registered User

Join date: 25 Mar 2005

Posts: 15,556

03-09-2007 15:48

From: Ewan Glenelg

Thank you all for your input and for confirming my suspicions.

Desmond, thank you for your suggestion. I agree. All parties should consent to the reading of a chatlog - otherwise it's a hotbed for gossip, drama, and bad communication.

Ronin, you're right, even screenshots can put taken into PhotoShop and doctored.

Ceera, does that mean, should it be necessary, the actual text of a convo could be retrieved if needed from the Linden servers?

There's a lot of drama going on right now in the sims where I hang out, and people being hurt because of it. It's not the SL I signed on for originally. I wish people would grow up.

Collette and Livinda - thanks for being there.

=Ewan

Someone told me once -

Q- "whats there to do in SL anyhow?"
A- "Drama"

good luck with your drama issues. They are the number 1 conflict in SL. Sometimes I wonder if SL is a Soap Opera Simulator.

Ceera Murakami

Texture Artist / Builder

Join date: 9 Sep 2005

Posts: 7,750

03-09-2007 15:49

Ewan,

Yes, it is my understanding that at least for a limited period of time after an event, the Lindens can recover chat logs for a specific location and time. As I recall, this is how they get proof against griefers, if there is no Linden eye witness to the griefing. But you pretty much have to be able to specify the coordinates you were standing at and the time and date stamp of the event. Otherwise the search criteria are insane.

My assertations on this are based on the Linden explanations of how to file an Abuse Report against a griefer.

As I understand it, they can NOT recover past IM communications. At least, they claim that is so.

_____________________

Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.

Gaybot Foxley

Input Collector

Join date: 15 Nov 2006

Posts: 584

03-09-2007 16:00

There is no way to alter chat logs. They are binding and as though they were set in stone. I found this one from when I first joined Second Life.

[12:07] Gaybot Foxley: Hello, I was wondering if I could buy some Linden dollars. I am new here. This is my first day on Second Life.
[12:07] Philip Linden: Hello newb! If you want Linden dollars, it is going to cost you dearly!
[12:07] Gaybot Foxley: Oh, but don't I just have to give my payment info and make a purchase?
[12:07] Philip Linden: You will give ME your credit card information so that I might go on a shopping spree at my local mall! muahhahaha!
[12:08] Gaybot Foxley: Ugh, but then can I buy some Linden dollars? I'm really interested in this skin I saw today.
[12:08] Philip Linden: Once our company has your information, I order you to buy the Philip Linden skin for the mere price of 100,000 Linden dollars.
[12:08] Gaybot Foxley: But sir I
[12:08] Philip Linden: Be silent resident! You will do as the Lord of Second Life commands!
[12:08] Gaybot Foxley: *sigh* ok
[12:08] Philip Linden: Oh and one more thing....I've taken the liberty of sending a contract to your house in real life which you must sign. It gives me all rights to your eternal soul which I may devour at any time.
[12:08] Gaybot Foxley: Yes Lord Philip.
[12:09] Philip Linden has left this session in a ball of fire while laughing maniacally.

MadamG Zagato

means business

Join date: 17 Sep 2005

Posts: 1,402

03-09-2007 16:04

Very funny Gaybot! ROFL

But seriously in my opinion, all chat transcripts are evidence of is that the person showing them to anyone else cannot be trusted. If you show me a chat log of another resident, you can just as easily show a chatlog to someone else with MY name in it without my permission too.

Angelique LaFollette

Registered User

Join date: 17 Jun 2004

Posts: 1,595

03-09-2007 17:40

Well, because the Lindens don't Involve themselves in Bad Business Transactions i would have to ask To Whom is this "False evidence" being presented? You should be aware that Distributing Chats like that is a Violation of TOS, So, If someone is distributing chats by you, or Misrepresented as being by you, All you ned do is AR them. Whether the Chat is False or Not, the one making and distributing the note cards will be Disciplined.
If the perpetrator continues to maintain that the chat is true, and accurate, they are in Violation of TOS for passing the chat around, If they attempt to defend themselves by admitting the Chat is False, they are Guilty of Harassment. Either way, they lose.

Read TOS, and Follow AR procedures, they will get you Farther than Complaining here.

Angel.

Chat Transcripts as Evidence
Ewan Glenelg Registered User Join date: 9 Nov 2006 Posts: 9	03-09-2007 13:18 Has anyone had a situation where a chat transcript (in a notecard) was being used as evidence of bad business practices or improper behavior? Has anyone later found out the the transcript was forged, falsified, or edited? I personally contend that there is no real way to authenticate a chat transcript, especially one in a notecard, and that it's easy to "put words in someone's mouth" by editing the transcript in Word, or some other word processing program, and then pasting the results into a notecard. Chat transcripts in notecards cannot be depended on for accuracy. What does anyone else think on this issue? Thanks. =Ewan
Colette Meiji Registered User Join date: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 15,556	03-09-2007 13:21 From: Ewan Glenelg Has anyone had a situation where a chat transcript (in a notecard) was being used as evidence of bad business practices or improper behavior? Has anyone later found out the the transcript was forged, falsified, or edited? I personally contend that there is no real way to authenticate a chat transcript, especially one in a notecard, and that it's easy to "put words in someone's mouth" by editing the transcript in Word, or some other word processing program, and then pasting the results into a notecard. Chat transcripts in notecards cannot be depended on for accuracy. What does anyone else think on this issue? Thanks. =Ewan People use chat logs all the time as fuel for drama - Technically its against the TOS Evidence? I dont see how - you can edit any chat log you make before you send the notecard. Could doctor the whole convo up to make someone "guilty" even if they arent.
Livinda Goodliffe Squeaky Wheel Join date: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 215	Evidence??? 03-09-2007 13:25 Like Colette said, it's way to easy to forge one to be used as evidence. Anyone with 3rd grade education could figure out how to.
Ronin Arnaz Registered User Join date: 6 Jun 2005 Posts: 41	03-09-2007 13:46 Screenshots or it didn't happen. Even then, it still might not have happened.
Ceera Murakami Texture Artist / Builder Join date: 9 Sep 2005 Posts: 7,750	03-09-2007 15:03 The only value of a chatlog, or even a screen shot of a chat log, is as a starting point from which Linden Lab can go directly to their own servers and download/verify the alleged conversation took place. Anything else can readily be forged. _____________________ Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Desmond Shang Guvnah of Caledon Join date: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 5,250	03-09-2007 15:06 Do not read chatlogs without consent from all parties involved, inworld. _____________________ Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!
Ewan Glenelg Registered User Join date: 9 Nov 2006 Posts: 9	Thank You 03-09-2007 15:39 Thank you all for your input and for confirming my suspicions. Desmond, thank you for your suggestion. I agree. All parties should consent to the reading of a chatlog - otherwise it's a hotbed for gossip, drama, and bad communication. Ronin, you're right, even screenshots can put taken into PhotoShop and doctored. Ceera, does that mean, should it be necessary, the actual text of a convo could be retrieved if needed from the Linden servers? There's a lot of drama going on right now in the sims where I hang out, and people being hurt because of it. It's not the SL I signed on for originally. I wish people would grow up. Collette and Livinda - thanks for being there. =Ewan
Colette Meiji Registered User Join date: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 15,556	03-09-2007 15:48 From: Ewan Glenelg Thank you all for your input and for confirming my suspicions. Desmond, thank you for your suggestion. I agree. All parties should consent to the reading of a chatlog - otherwise it's a hotbed for gossip, drama, and bad communication. Ronin, you're right, even screenshots can put taken into PhotoShop and doctored. Ceera, does that mean, should it be necessary, the actual text of a convo could be retrieved if needed from the Linden servers? There's a lot of drama going on right now in the sims where I hang out, and people being hurt because of it. It's not the SL I signed on for originally. I wish people would grow up. Collette and Livinda - thanks for being there. =Ewan Someone told me once - Q- "whats there to do in SL anyhow?" A- "Drama" good luck with your drama issues. They are the number 1 conflict in SL. Sometimes I wonder if SL is a Soap Opera Simulator.
Ceera Murakami Texture Artist / Builder Join date: 9 Sep 2005 Posts: 7,750	03-09-2007 15:49 Ewan, Yes, it is my understanding that at least for a limited period of time after an event, the Lindens can recover chat logs for a specific location and time. As I recall, this is how they get proof against griefers, if there is no Linden eye witness to the griefing. But you pretty much have to be able to specify the coordinates you were standing at and the time and date stamp of the event. Otherwise the search criteria are insane. My assertations on this are based on the Linden explanations of how to file an Abuse Report against a griefer. As I understand it, they can NOT recover past IM communications. At least, they claim that is so. _____________________ Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
Gaybot Foxley Input Collector Join date: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 584	03-09-2007 16:00 There is no way to alter chat logs. They are binding and as though they were set in stone. I found this one from when I first joined Second Life. [12:07] Gaybot Foxley: Hello, I was wondering if I could buy some Linden dollars. I am new here. This is my first day on Second Life. [12:07] Philip Linden: Hello newb! If you want Linden dollars, it is going to cost you dearly! [12:07] Gaybot Foxley: Oh, but don't I just have to give my payment info and make a purchase? [12:07] Philip Linden: You will give ME your credit card information so that I might go on a shopping spree at my local mall! muahhahaha! [12:08] Gaybot Foxley: Ugh, but then can I buy some Linden dollars? I'm really interested in this skin I saw today. [12:08] Philip Linden: Once our company has your information, I order you to buy the Philip Linden skin for the mere price of 100,000 Linden dollars. [12:08] Gaybot Foxley: But sir I [12:08] Philip Linden: Be silent resident! You will do as the Lord of Second Life commands! [12:08] Gaybot Foxley: sigh ok [12:08] Philip Linden: Oh and one more thing....I've taken the liberty of sending a contract to your house in real life which you must sign. It gives me all rights to your eternal soul which I may devour at any time. [12:08] Gaybot Foxley: Yes Lord Philip. [12:09] Philip Linden has left this session in a ball of fire while laughing maniacally.
MadamG Zagato means business Join date: 17 Sep 2005 Posts: 1,402	03-09-2007 16:04 Very funny Gaybot! ROFL But seriously in my opinion, all chat transcripts are evidence of is that the person showing them to anyone else cannot be trusted. If you show me a chat log of another resident, you can just as easily show a chatlog to someone else with MY name in it without my permission too.
Angelique LaFollette Registered User Join date: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,595	03-09-2007 17:40 Well, because the Lindens don't Involve themselves in Bad Business Transactions i would have to ask To Whom is this "False evidence" being presented? You should be aware that Distributing Chats like that is a Violation of TOS, So, If someone is distributing chats by you, or Misrepresented as being by you, All you ned do is AR them. Whether the Chat is False or Not, the one making and distributing the note cards will be Disciplined. If the perpetrator continues to maintain that the chat is true, and accurate, they are in Violation of TOS for passing the chat around, If they attempt to defend themselves by admitting the Chat is False, they are Guilty of Harassment. Either way, they lose. Read TOS, and Follow AR procedures, they will get you Farther than Complaining here. Angel.

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Chat Transcripts as Evidence