Texture Permissions, Usages, Copyrights, and messed up stuff

heyas;

having become a 'copyright cop' back in the 80s, when everybody thought they could use any old image they found on the web for whatever they wanted.... i want to make sure that i am properly and legally using textures in my 2l items that i want to sell. and as far as i can tell, that's pretty much impossible.


first, it is impossible to tell where anyone got a texture they have uploaded. it could have been swiped from anywhere.
we can't really do anything about this, except perhaps educate people on intellectual property rights.


second, the only way texture makers can sell their textures for use by builders is to make them transferable. which means there's really no statistical difference between a 'free for any use' texture, and a texture that a person has bought or 'licensed' to use in his/her objects.
so these people who are giving me full-transfer right images... might be doing wrong. so far, i have all 'free' textures given to me by teachers of building classes. and i HAVE asked. the answer is always the same: 'all items given out by all teachers are free and clear to use in your own salable objects.' and i have to go by this. but how can i be sure?

there IS something we can do about this -- possibly. that is, to have linden labs change or add permissions. specifically a texture permission that defines whether the texture is 'free' (full transfer granted), or whether it is only authorized for use ON an object ie: 'embeddable' or some other permission property along those lines. that is, i can put it on my object, and i can sell my object, but the recipient can't extract the texture from that object. i can't HAND anybody this object (it's no transfer). i can't throw the texture in a box and sell it that way (it's no transfer). but i can use it for its intended purpose: to be put on things.
is there a feature voting thing or other out on this? i haven't found it yet. i've found a few proposals that have been argued over, but no one has seemed to hammer out a definitive solution.



third: this is something that can be done here and now. when i open a texture, it has a note across the top. usually, this note is something useless like the originator's file directory and image name.
why don't texture authors put their name and usage licensing in that slot? (well, maybe some do, but i haven't seen it yet.) if somebody hands me a 'free' texture, and i open it, and i see '(c) john smith, free for use on objects, not to be transferred,' then i would delete it. (and probably thwap the person who gave it to me.) oh sure, it's not enforceable, and hundreds of people would ignore that (or not even look), but it's SOMEthing.


anyhow, i guess this is more of a rant/idea than a question. but the question is, what can i do to help promote/implement different texture permissions, and what else is being done now to alleviate this mess?

This issue has come up a lot in the past I'm afraid

The problem with adding a new permission is that for every existing texture in the database, the system would have to automatically set the newly added permission flag to a default value. Regardless of whether the default was "free" or "embed only", you'd still wind up with a whole bunch of textures being wrongly labelled, which means that people would have to be told to ignore the label and we'd be right back to square one.



The note across the top is, AFAIK, the name the texture had when first uploaded/created. Using that for copyright info is a good idea and I think many of the big texture vendors like TU do actually do so.

If you search these forums, there have been extensive discussions regarding how SL might be changed to provide better protection for intilectual property rights for texture creators. The bottom line is, there is no feasable technical solution that can't easily be bypassed.

Take a look at Textures-R-Us. All our textures have names the start with TRU. When you walk into our store or buy our textures, you are presented with a terms of service agreement, that explains you may use the textures to make things, for your own use or for resale, but that you may NOT sell or give away the raw textures themselves. It's a contract between TRU and the buyer of the textures. If you, personally, purchased TRU textures, then the textures you purchased are legal for you to use. If someone other than a TRU artist tries to sell or give you a TRU texture, it's an illegal copy.

To take an analogy - if you go and buy a texture at a site like Renderosity, you get with it a terms of use document that states that having bought it, you have the right to use it in any projects, commercial or otherwise, so long as you don't redistribute the actual texture file (or a modified version of it).

Lacking such a document in SL, I find I have to assume that the same general conditions are implied, i.e. if I buy a texture from someone, I can take it on trust (a) that they had the right to sell it to me, and (b) I have the right to slap it on a product and sell that product.

I've responded to this issue in other Copyright threads. It just isn't possible to Protect textures in a Real way, and still have them usable by those persons who Purchase them. You either protect your product, Making it Unsalable, or you Sell it Unrestricted to the Majority of Honest users, and not get bent out of shape about the Minority of Dishonest people who will trade them behind your back.

I shop at TRU, They have Incredible merchandise which i use In the way they specify. Each of thier texture folders comes with One additional Texture. A sign Board stating Catagoricly that thier Textures are NOT to be Yard-saled. and yes, every one of them is prefaced with the name TRU. No one who bought them can Claim they didn't know.
TRU has a Massive selection, and All Good quality. From what i have seen, their Volume of sales Must More than recoup any Losses due to Piracey.

If they can make a Profitable enterprise under the Current rules, I think there is no reason why anyone else Cannot.

Angel.

One problem: TRU's copyright is invalid.

Unless they made the textures from the ground up with complete original work, the copyrights belong to the original maker.

Therefore, I will counterfile a DMCA on all of their stuff if I give it away and they intend to stop the motion.

Edit - one texture for sale there under this invalid protection is straight off the internet- I uploaded the same one.

BUT TRU has a contract with their buyers. That makes the copyright argument irrelevant. If buyers resell the texture, they are breaking the contract they agreed upon by purchasing the texture in the first place.

But this assumes that TRU is the rightful copyright holder- otherwise the contract is invalid and irrelevant. Which is the case.

TRU is breaking copyright laws by selling in the first place.

No contract based on selling good that aren't yours lawfully are valid. This is why someone making a contract for a lease on a stolen car has no ability to (legally) hold the person to the lease - the contract is irrelevant.

Isn't this discussiuon getting a bit ad hominem?

Its just kind of the point. If a texture store wants to file DMCA on someone handing their textures out or selling them - they better be able to prove the textures are completely and originally theirs, not something uploaded or bought.

Any texture store.

The copyright remains with the original creator.

I don't know what grounds you have for claiming that TRU's textures are not their own - I am not a lawyer, but they might well have grounds to sue you for libel in that case.

However, I think you are generally right. Uploading a free texture from the web, for instance, doesn't give you any IP rights over that texture . It's probably social to say that it gives you rights over that particular uploaded instance (since that enabled you to recover your upload fees and save others on theirs), but if someone uploads another copy from the same source you've AFAIK got no right to that.

Considering I have the exact same texture that was being sold in the store at one point, one I uploaded off the internet, I have good enough evidence that they couldn't file libel or slander.

Both involve untruthes, but I have evidence.

All my textures that I sell at TRU ARE made from the ground up, by me. I AM the original artist for my work, and I have the layered original Photoshop files to prove it. File a counter DMCA against any of MY textures, and you'll lose, in court.

Yes, there are some textures at TRU that can be obtained, for a price, from Internet sources. Those textures are licensed from the makers of those textures. While out of the tens of thousands of textures at TRU there may still be a handful of textures that came from free sources on the Internet, that only invalidates copyright on those individual textures, and NOT on all textures that TRU sells. To state otherwise is like saying that if one Wal-Mart sells a pirated t-shirt, that ALL their merchandise is pirated goods. That is just plain stupid.

Be ready to prove it if you file any DMCAs on me then, because I will counterfile and force it to court. I might also browse your entire store and find every net texture and set them for free nearby your shop.

Well, out of the 40,000+ textures at TRU, I can only personally vouch for the 500 to 700 or so that I personally made. But those, I know I can prove.

I'll tell you what, BL. I don't own TRU. But if you have nothing better to do with your time than to spend it browsing the over 40,000 textures in the vendors at TRU, looking for and identifying the small fraction that you believe are also on the Internet as free or 'copyrighted and not for resale' textures, I'll personally make you this offer.

Provide me with a list of each texture that you feel we don't have copyright to, citing the name of the texture, the bundle that it is in, and the URL of the Internet source that you believe invalidates our claim to it. I will, personally, follow up on every one of those with TRU's management, and we will either validate that it is part of a collection that we legally licensed, or I WILL ASK TRU TO REMOVE IT.

Fair enough? With such a huge collection, gathered from many artists, it's impossible for us to check each one individually against all the known textures in the world. And certainly some of the older textures may be the sort that you complain about, provided by artists who knew no better at the time. But you know what? We have so many new, completely original textures being created every day that there's really very little reason for us to retain any 'questionable' texture. Other than the fact that we all have a life, and don't want to spend every waking moment examining the archives for possible conflicts. And quite honestly, most of the stuff that you can yank for free off the Net is crap, compared to what our TRU staff artists are producing today. Most of the Net stuff is not seamless, and really doesn't work well in SL anyway.

So if you want to spend all your free time helping TRU to 'clean up its act'? Well, as a TRU artist I'd be willing to examine any valid evidence and act on it accordingly. And I believe the owner of TRU would agree.

Mind you, if all you come up with is something vague like "All your leather textures are freebies!", I'll just laugh and ignore you, because I know right now that that is incorrect. But if you are willing to back your claims with valid and specific data, then I am willing to work with you to eliminate the small percentage that is a problem.

I've considered selling some of the many textures I've made for my projects through TRU. From what research I've done I find them to be a reputable business, and as honest a company as you'll find. When the time comes that I decide to sell the textures, TRU will be the place I go, without hesitation.

I honestly don't see what has upset the person complaining about them - is land not selling fast enough?

Hi.

I do get the odd enquiry about certain textures TRU holds.
Its true to say not everything i the store is hand made from scratch so your quite right about us not being able to claim copyright on something we havent made

The EUAL contains a paragraph about this:
Many of TRU textures are created from scratch based on high resolution photo resources. Some are retouched from royalty free photo content, and still others are manipulated textures from bundled sources that permit their images for such use.

If you see a texture that you believe is based on a protected image, please notify me. Likewise, I hope that if you see textures of mine for sale at other locations you will let me know. However, keep in mind that texture stores like mine likely pull from similar sources and it's possible for us to end up with similar textures through no violation of copyright or theft. If there's a particular texture all over the place, itis likely from a royalty-free CD or source and not a case of stealing, so please give myself and others the benefit of the doubt when inquiring.

How ever this amount is growing smaller and smaller. When I was new, I did what most texture stores did back in that time..source off the net and sell. Later on I would modify them..make them seamless or add alphas etc. I also used to contact the creators of builds that caught my eye and used to buy a good many textures direct from othe rresidents on the understanding it was for resale purposes.

Ive learnt since that some of these textures werent made by the person/s I bought them from and have had to remove them from sale
As I can now make my own I wouldnt go down that road again plus instead of buying from other players I invite them to display them in the store. That way they are responsible for their own copyright.

So when writing a EUAL we have to really lay it on thick as the majority of TRUs textures 'are' hand made by 20 of its artists.

Equally, even if someone buys a texture that they later found on the net. Its still piss poor morals to just bundle it up and sell it.
Someone took the time out to source it and the L$ to upload it the land fees to display and where applicable wrote to the creator and gained permission to distribute it in SL.

We sponser ASL and TUi and they 'do' pass on textures we give them to students but they always untick the transfer. So students can use them but not on commercial or transferable objects.

Also prefab sellers can also inc the txtrs in the prefab bundle as long as again the transfer perm is unticked.
Hope that clears up any confusion

I've bought a quite a few textures from TRU (used to save all my money as a newb to run to TRU for a weekly treat!) and find them to be very above board! I happily comply to the agreement that I enter into each and every time I purchase a new texture. It's, for me, paying for the service of everything being in one spot. I understand the copyright issue, but c'mon guys...as soon as SL ceases to be a game Im outta here. I come to SL to escape all of this gross stuff and relax (RL is stressful enough). When I start to focus too much on business here I make myself "take a weekend off" to play in SL to readjust my perspective. Sounds like some peeps need a month! C'mon guys, let's play! I'll give you Ice Cream!

Thanks for the positive replies.

Its fair that If we are to hold true to our EUAL then to avoid confusion and accusations of hypocricy then we must remove anything we're not 100% sure about.
For me thats very old stock I found off the net perhaps over 18 mths ago
As far as I know anything I personally found I have written permission from 3 websites and 2 creators to distribute in SL.
Other stuff I bought from builders around the same time, as yet I havent been faced with anyone saying theyre not 'originals'
I always invite ppl to contact me with information if they believe something in the store either of mine of any other artist is protected by copyright
All it takes is a polite notecard with the name of the set/texture and some evidence such as the URL to show the texture doesnt belong to the artist who shows as creator and it WILL be removed that very moment.

About 6 mths ago I was verbally attacked by 2 ladies who were making accusations regards to some textures I had modified in some 3D sets


After much name calling I copied and pasted the permission email I had recieved from the creator and sent it them. I did not once get an apology and the whole affair left me almost crying.
Had they enquired direcct with me I would of showed them that email and it would of saved them the humilation and me the stress.But instead they went telling tales assuming the worst before talking to me direct.

Why people cant just approach me if they believe something isnt right rather than make threats like this thread or go telling tales assuming the worst I dont know.

People like that arent out to protect another persons art but rather are motivated by hatred and wanting to knock ppl down a few pegs it would seem.

Also I the artists at TRU have all agreed to chip in the $4000, to sue anyone who refuses to remove any hand made work from SL. It would be the first legal case of its kind a money well spent.
If someone wants to act as the person TRU uses to 'make an example of' by going legal over hand made work then that works for us.
It would be good publicity and would most likely make people sit up and listen and think twice before reselling other SL artists textures in SL.
Full perms are set with an awful lot of trust and most people in SL are honest and obide by TOS we set. After all people are making a RL living from the buildings they make using some of TRUs 3D sets. Its shows lazyiness, lack of business and creative skills to just sell other ppls work.

I wasnt born into SL a saint. I think many ppl make mistakes when theyre new, They dont understand copyright and come assuming SL is just another game ..and it is for many but as the L$ has a RL value and IP laws are a RL law then we have to draw a line in the sand between game and real life.

Only once has some-one approached me with manners and politeness and once directed to the website in question the 10 textures were removed instantly

These same textures are all over SL and are being used on many builds and sold in lots of smaller stores but I accept as SL largest texture store I need to set an example and as such removed them

I was once like all of the smaller txtr stores selling freebies off the net, a little of that stock still remains and I will be offerng anything I am not 100% sure about for free very soon.

Thanks for all comments here good and bad. We do care about TRUs reputation and thankfully for the most part it remains intact.