Take the money and run!!

Hi. As you can see I dont write in the Forums too much, i tend to lurk a lot. I just wondered if anybody can advise me what to do about a wicked person who has ripped me off something rotten!

I rented a plot of land on a private sim and paid a months tier upfront. 23000L to be exact. I lived there for a week then all my belongings dissapeared, house and everything. I checked the "Land Details" and I was no longer the owner. It seems the Owner of the sim had come back on line after some absence, during which he had given his partner full permission to run the island. Rentals and everything. From what I can make out he didn't like what he saw when he came back, so he chucked everybody off! He now denies any liability, blaming the person he left in charge. She denies liability because the funds were apparently paid into a group account and she does not have the money. I have reported the incident three times to Lindens and heard nothing.

How long does it take to get a reply? If I dont get one what is the best way to proceed? I really cannot afford to lose that amount of money, be it Lindens or real!

Any advice would be helpfull. Is there an appropriate place these type of people can be named and shamed?


Thanks.OZ

Isn't that a reportable fraud? Not to just the LL authorities, but to the US ones?

There is no such thing as a "group account" - any money paid to a group is divided immediately (except for land sales).

Unfortunately, LL have always made it their policy not to get involved in arbitrating deals between residents. The only course of action is to sue, in real life, the parties involved. (LL will release their real life identity details in response to a subpoena.)

Well, it is their land and they can do what they want to the renters, but that was rude of them, but there is nothing you can do if I'm thinking right this morning (correct me if I'm wrong).

It's not rude, it's violation of a contract.

Law of agency says it's his problem that he didn't like what his agent was doing with the land, and not your problem. He owes you compensation.

If I'm not mistaken, private estate owners can do anything they want with their land, including evict someone without notice. That's why there are so many forum posts about going with a reputable dealer. Sounds like you just got unlucky with your choice. Perhaps you could beg the original person you dealt with to refund some of your lindens. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you have to eat the $90 US you lost.

Ok people.
Many thanks for the replies so far. At least I now feel that someone cares, but in practical terms. I live in UK and there is no way I can pursue this matter using RL methods. What I need is a way to Name and shame him and his Island. Not wishing to cntravene the rules of this Forum I have not named any names, But is there a place where this can be done? if only to warn others of this obnoxiouse person?

I feel like giving it all up! Its really upset me. Up until this incident I really looked forward to getting into the game whenever I had time. Now I am practically broke, (In game) and cannot afford to top it all back up again! My hands are tied, I cannot even annoy him when he is on because he has the option to "Mute" me.

Surely Lindens only have to take a look at the account records and they can see whats happened. Its so simple. Perhaps its because he pays for a whole Sim and I am not worth the hastle.
OZ

IANAL, but you might ask about the Small Claims Court - until the subpoena is filed, you have no way of knowing that the island owner isn't in the UK too. (Yes, this is a bit of a SLAPP, but it's a valid point..)



They can look at the account records and see the money transfer, but then they will have to ask the other resident for their side of the story, and they will say that you are lying and say something that makes their actions seem entirely reasonable, and then they will have to try to judge what is real.. and it'll become a whole mess.

Second Citizen would gladly embrace your name and shame post. There is even naming and shaming going on on this forum today but I don't advise it (even though I was one of the ones doing it).

Private estates are still your best bet in SL. It's a shame this name was a thief. One way to get around this is to rent somewhere that does not charge an upfront fee. Then if something like this happens, you only lose your monthly tier fee.

I think we are allowed to name places when talking positively, so I will tell you to check out Puerto Nerdo North. The owner is one of the most respected and trusted in SL and last time I checked, her covenants has not up front fee. And yes, we do care. :hug:

So Basically then buy yourself a Sim, Rent it out, get the money, change it to dollars, chuck everybody off. And repeat as many times as you want! Nobody will be able to do anything, nobody can say anything! Sounds like a good setup to me...

"Naming names" in another forum somewhere really isn't going to do a lot of good as it has nothing to do with anything. You're simply trying to get even, or worse, extort your money back ("If you don't give me back my money I'll say terrible terrible things about you." Please note that you gave your money to a fourth-party, and possibly got scammed by them, and not the landlord (the third party) who actually owned the land.

Advice? Sure, have a bushelfull: In the future, do a better job of assessing the risks involved with renting land (it can be taken away from you at any time) and possibly focus on OWNING land (which can only be taken away by the Lindens).

Sorry you've had such a bad experience.

I think Second Citizen allows you to name and shame.

Mainland may have its drawbacks, but at least the land is yours (yes I know it belongs to LL etc ).

This kind of nonsense lessens us all. Someone kept your money. Sounds like a shill game to keep passing the buck - AR the both of them and call the Company and complain. I'm presuming they have a toll free line for the UK?

As far as Linden Labs is concerned, that may be true.

But Linden Labs doesn't have the authority to dissolve what's essentially a private contract between two individuals. Enforcing the contract is an altogether different question, but private estate owners have no right to abrogate contracts or commit fraud.

Welcome to the new frontier.

Basically at this point there is very little you can do. The same exact thing happened to me, and I had to just eat the loss. In my case it was my business which was shut down by the thief, so it was a double monetary loss. What I found is that Linden Labs are not going to get involved in what appears to be resident-to-resident contract disputes, and trying to address this via RL legal venues is expensive and messy.

That said, there are nascent organizations trying to grapple with these issues, but who are still largely in the formation stage, and not yet effective IMHO, but with a bit of luck and diligence just might make some headway.

There are also more and more lawyers coming into SL (I'm not sure that is a good thing, but it is inevitable I suppose). Nonetheless, it's a huge problem, and the legal side of SL is starting to get some press:

http://www.silicon.com/retailandleisure/0,3800011842,39167128,00.htm

So as I see it your options are:

1. Eat the loss and move on
2. Continue to try to negotiate with the sim owner
3. Join one of the in world groups who are attempting to deal with these issues, but don't have high expectations at this point in time
4. Attempt the legal route, but be prepared to spend a lot of money
5. Name names on a forum and really not accomplish much except maybe get a few flame wars started
6. Be stupid and go corrupt yourself (as suggested by someone upthread) and endure the lasting hatred of the community at large

In short, there are no easy answers at this point. As a community, we need something to help remediate these complaints, but the tools and institutions to do so in an effective and fair manner are still works in progress.

Now you see why I stick to the mainland. No one knows how stable these "private" owmers are. It's like playing Russian roulette.

Yess you hear the call to the Island nad so ften, where people boast of how good it is to pay someone 4 times what it costs him or would cost you in tier on your own block of land.
Mainland is yours 100% as long as you keep paying LL, Just be careful about where you pick it, look for sims that only have 10 or so owners in them not 50 and more roads/water etc in them means more spare prims and less lag too. My Class 3 sim is never over 50% prim usage and seems better than many clogged up Class5 sims.

Uh...did you ever try to sort it out with either of the landlords invloved in the situation? Either the one that you originally paid or the one that now owns the land?

Naming names is a good way to get the business what it wants (bad publicity) if they were actually trying to screw you over, but YOU end up looking like a jerk if you call them out and it turns out there was a misunderstanding.

I'd exhaust all my options to resolve this privately before airing my dirty laundry.

But either way, why did you pay anyone US$90.00 up front for something you can't lay claim on?? You know most places rent by the week, right? At least all the ones I've ever seen.

I would have smelled trouble once I found out about the down payment!!

Hi Ostard,

Yes you can do something, and it is not expensive.

Go to your local County Court (there is no such thing as a Small Claims Court), and make a small claim. The procedure is here:

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm

If you cannot go to a County Court easily, then you can claim on-line instead, the procedure is here:

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/onlineservices/mcol/index.htm

I would forget about trying to recover the money from the resident, as his identity is only known to LL, and he may be out of the jurisdiction of the English Courts anyway. Instead, cite LL through their Brighton office as the defendent. Under English law they have a duty of trust. That duty cannot be avoided by having a TOS which deny it, and you cannot sign away your rights. As you say, LL know from their data that you paid, and what subsequently happened. It would be very interesting to see how they could defend themselves from a claim (and we are talking British Law here, not shady corporate-friendly Californian Law).

The whole exercise will cost you no more than £30 (around US$60).

Good luck, and file that claim.

im sure for every bad story there is 10 or more good ones

i had a small chunk of mainland a long time ago and gave it up because of casino's and clubs that lagged the sim movin in

for over a year now i have rented on private sims and love it

both landlords ive had are great and never a problem with them

i do NOT pay 10 times more then what the plot is worth i guess im lucky at finding good deals

if you ever want to rent from a good landlord let me know ill give you the names of a few

Name and shame them. Make sure they can never run a business in SL again. Although more than likely against the rules here, there are many other sites you can use to do it. No point complaining to LL, like they give a toss. Unless you're a Land baron or a well know company, they don't care if we're happy or not. Time to take matters in our own hands and do all we can, without breaking the TOS I'm afraid

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Nothing appears in the Police Blotter. Soooo,,What is this supposed to mean?

You could try lodging the problem at the SLBB on Business Bureau Isle. They can't guarantee to get you your money back, but they offer a mediation service. Your complaint would also be logged.