LL supporting RW Online Gambling???

If you venture over to Nimrod Yaffle you can now bet on real world sporting events, and you thought online gambling was illegal. NOT at the new Nimrod Yaffle parcel which is also full of dead traffic from campers. How is this not illegal and a major concern for LL since I can convert RW dollars to Lindens then bet on RW sporting events and then convert my winnings back to RW dollars?! This completely circumvents the new laws prohibiting online gambling. Any response LL?

This is the Resident Answers forum... if you're seeking an "official" response from Linden Lab you're best off posting in the Linden Answers forum.

Look for a recent thread on gambling in SL, which discussed this subject to death.

IMHO, the bottom line is, it's illegal but unlikely (for now) to be busted here. This is regardless of whether it's RW events. The limitations on the amount of currency you can convert per day help to avoid SL becoming nothing more than a front for a huge gambling house. (This also helps avoid it becoming a step in a money laundering operation.)

There were a lot of different opinions on the thread, and some even had good arguments.

since ya double posted and ones public

/139/2b/155858/1.html



the L$s a product, not a currency, its like trading CDs from best buy

thx for the free publicity btw

...which would be illegal.

Thanks for playing, though!

Currency: money in use or circulation, Collins English Dictionary.

US$ --> L$ --> US$? hmm, sounds a bit like circulation?

First, it doesn't matter whether it's a product or a currency. $L has market value in terms of $US, and that's what matters.

Second, it's not illegal to resell CDs. Not that this matters.

Casino chips aren't legal tender either, though they are redeemable from the owner (unlike $L, which LL doesn't promise to redeem).

Bottom line is it won't matter until the Feds decide to bust someone. My guess is they'll go after bigger operations ($-wise) first, so SL will be low on the list, and not to worry.

Here's a list of what has been prosecuted in California in 2004, according to the Internet Crime Complaint Center, a partnership of the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation and National White Collar Crime center.

http://www.ic3.gov/media/annualreport/2004/california%202004%20report.pdf

Over 90% of it was auction fraud, nondelivery fraud, credit card or check fraud. Gambling isn't even mentioned.

This may also have to do with the fact that it is unlawful, and only an idiot would report it. On the IQ level of "Help, call the police, he stole my stash!"

Of course, most internet gambling sites are smart enough to be offshore, in places known not to be responsive to the US FBI.

So yes, it looks like there isn't much activity as far as I can tell... yet.

* * * * *

With our grid however, in order to 'cash out' someone has to have financial information posted, somewhere somehow. Even if it's only a paypal email - *someone* will have a name or a bank account tied to something.

All $L and land transactions are recorded, so the grid would be a really bad place to 'launder the money' before it hit USD credit. One boilerplate subpoena for first life information to a cooperative Linden Research Inc or eBay Inc (Paypal) and you are toast.

So whenever the FBI *does* decide to prosecute, why would they not go after the easy, low-hanging fruit first? Such as anyone with a huge sign on their land that says "CASINO"?

They will appreciate the chilling effect of making an example out of Aunt Bea's Texas Hold'em, because then there *won't* be the sense of safety for everyone else.

And I get the sense that the Fed won't quietly knock on the door.

Ever heard of a "gentleman's" raid on a casino, or an appointment made first?

I haven't either.

YW! As Elex pointed out this didn’t exactly belong here but since you can’t have a public discourse in the space where this should be posted I opted to also post it here.
One of the many amazing things about SL is that it’s reported widely, even on SL’s own web site, about how you can make a real life living in SL. Why gosh here’s one right here pulled from SL’s own site:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/12/05/1165080951499.html

And I quote the following for those who didn’t know (like me, lol), “Last week, Second Life property tycoon Ailin Graef, who goes by the name of Anshe Chung, announced that she had amassed virtual assets worth the equivalent of over $US1 million.
In doing so, the former language teacher procalimed herself to be the first virtual world millionaire.”

A RW MILLIONAIRE! Congrats Anshe!

And holy cow yet another one:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/12/08/technology/sl_lindex/index.htm?section=money_technology

The following is said here by LL’s CFO! “The other thing that makes it (THE LINDEN) valuable is that people are willing to trade real currencies for it and have confidence they'll be able to do that in the future. A lot of the dynamics are like the real world.”
So it DOES have value and yes he also mentions the limited license right quote from above that Blue Linden gave me. I received an interesting IM in world asking how long before services such as Paypal and major credit card companies take note of this. Just a thought.

I should add that LL’s response to my inquiries has been truly awesome. Thanks LL and in particular Blue Linden. Happy Holidays!

One other important point, legally (yes, legally) all casinos in Second Life have to have a gambling license in order to operate. An example of this license is from the Kahnawake Gaming Commission.

Whether it's chips in a RL online poker buy-in tournament, or L$ in SL, they both have an inherent dollar value and therefore are considered online gambling.

The terms of SL state that L$ are not actually currency. Legally, this is wrong. Anything that has a currency value is considered currency. This also goes for income tax for every shop owner that converts their L$ profits to USD.

It will be interesting to see when the Feds and/or IRS decide to pursue this. Until then, I suppose it's like driving 56 MPH in a 55 MPH speed limit.

Also, I agree with LL that SL is a platform similar to the Internet itself. Any owner of the land is similar to a web site owner. Web site owners are responsible for their own content, not ISPs, not hardware manufacturers, not software providers, and not even web hosts for that matter (which I do 9-5 and legal issues like this come up all the time).

Anshe being a millionaire isnt quite accurant however

http://gigaom.com/2006/11/29/anshe-chung/

its a million is assets, onlt *IF* the servers were very liquid, which they wouldnt be is she sold all of them at once. Also its not US$1 million in profit like most think originally from reading those articles either.

adn LL does say gambling isnt against anything in SL, so that should be case closed, personal ideas, and the "well the FBI is coming" should be set aside for other topics.

It all comes down to there has to be a court case to set precedence

The inherent flaw in your interpretation of the facts is that Linden Labs may at any time revoke your right to log on to Second Life, wipe clean your database records, destroy your objects, delete your lands or sim, and declare your right to convert Lindens to USD or any other currency null and void.

They also explicitly declare that Lindens do not have any defined value other than for trading them for goods which, being virtual themselves and in existence at the whim of Linden Labs, have no intrinsic value either.

Lindens are essentially a method for "keeping score", and are not currency. Therefore, gambling laws simply do not apply in this situation. The very fact that Lindens are not currency is what shields them from litigation that would otherwise be viable, and makes the very existence of Second Life possible at all.

There was talk a couple of months ago about the possibility of a class action suit against Linden Labs for damages due to the CopyBot incident - however, no suit has been filed. The simple truth is that there are no damages possible when the game points being used to measure progress or ability within Second Life have no identifiable intrinsic value.

The proof, therefore, that Lindens are not currency is that Second Life exists. This most salient and unavoidable fact also defines games played in Second Life for game points as being gambling, but not gambling for real money.

The last time I checked, I didn't need a gambling license to play for marbles or walnuts. And so it is here.

You speak so authoritatively. If I didn't know better, I might think you knew what you were talking about...

A common tactic, sadly - when the argument itself is unassailable, attack the speaker instead.

All one has to do is read the Terms of Service, the United States tax code, and do the barest minimum of research on legal precedent. There's no magic involved here.

*locks forum cross posting / posting in the wrong place*