Second Life Forums Archive - Does Putting Money into Ponzi Schemes Count as Wagering?

Carl Metropolitan

Registered User

Join date: 7 Jul 2005

Posts: 1,031

07-31-2007 13:33

In a ponzi scheme only a small fraction of the people who put money in will pull it out in time to make the large returns offered. The rest will stick it out to the end and see their "deposits" vanish with the ponzi operator.

Sounds like "wagering" to me.

Raudf Fox

(ra-ow-th)

Join date: 25 Feb 2005

Posts: 5,119

07-31-2007 13:35

*snickers* Umm.. can it be considered wagering if you are guaranteed not to be able to get your money back?

_____________________

DiamonX Studios, the place of the Victorian Times series of gowns and dresses - Located at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Fushida/224/176

Want more attachment points for your avatar's wearing pleasure? Then please vote for

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1065?

ArchTx Edo

Mystic/Artist/Architect

Join date: 13 Feb 2005

Posts: 1,993

07-31-2007 13:50

From: Carl Metropolitan

Does Putting Money into Ponzi Schemes Count as Wagering?

No, I think of it as charity. Might as well throw it out the window.

_____________________

VRchitecture Model Homes at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Shona/60/220/30
http://www.slexchange.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&MerchantID=2240
http://shop.onrez.com/Archtx_Edo

Kidd Krasner

Registered User

Join date: 1 Jan 2007

Posts: 1,938

07-31-2007 13:55

It doesn't matter.

Ponzi schemes are illegal, and hence not allowed under the ToS.

SuezanneC Baskerville

Forums Rock!

Join date: 22 Dec 2003

Posts: 14,229

07-31-2007 13:58

I don't recall the precise wording but I think the gambling prohibition statement mentions using a random number generator to determine a winner, which the Ponzi scheme doesn't include.

_____________________

-

So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to

http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne

-

http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.

Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
Robin, and Ryan

-

Avacea Fasching

Certified

Join date: 23 Dec 2005

Posts: 481

07-31-2007 13:58

Ponzi schemes are also againt Policy,

So it does not matter.

_____________________

post spelling was checked using - Speak & Spell

Object Pascale

moshi moshi

Join date: 27 Jan 2007

Posts: 648

07-31-2007 14:07

How obvious must a Ponzi scheme be before LL decides to take action?

Chris Norse

Loud Arrogant Redneck

Join date: 1 Oct 2006

Posts: 5,735

07-31-2007 14:09

From: Kidd Krasner

It doesn't matter.

Ponzi schemes are illegal, and hence not allowed under the ToS.

Unless you are the Federal Government.

_____________________

I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart

“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur

FULL

Avacea Fasching

Certified

Join date: 23 Dec 2005

Posts: 481

07-31-2007 14:23

From: Object Pascale

How obvious must a Ponzi scheme be before LL decides to take action?

as soon as they find out its a ponzi scheme.

You could try to throw them off by making it look like a slot machine, yeah, I am sure that would work.....

_____________________

post spelling was checked using - Speak & Spell

Colette Meiji

Registered User

Join date: 25 Mar 2005

Posts: 15,556

07-31-2007 17:35

From: Object Pascale

How obvious must a Ponzi scheme be before LL decides to take action?

From the circumstantial evidence they have to say:

"HEY WE ARE A PONZI SCHEME!" on a giant 100 meter revolving prim billboard.

Osgeld Barmy

Registered User

Join date: 22 Mar 2005

Posts: 3,336

07-31-2007 17:55

From: Colette Meiji

From the circumstantial evidence they have to say:

"HEY WE ARE A PONZI SCHEME!" on a giant 100 meter revolving prim billboard.

i think thats my neighbors

Tenchi Nishi

Registered User

Join date: 4 May 2007

Posts: 5

07-31-2007 17:59

Does paying for an SL account count as a gamble? cause its house odds if ya get what ya pay for lol

Angelique LaFollette

Registered User

Join date: 17 Jun 2004

Posts: 1,595

07-31-2007 18:03

From: Carl Metropolitan

In a ponzi scheme only a small fraction of the people who put money in will pull it out in time to make the large returns offered. The rest will stick it out to the end and see their "deposits" vanish with the ponzi operator.

Sounds like "wagering" to me.

A Ponzi Scheme is a Scam, Not a gamble, there is No chance of getting money back, so if it's your thing to be so Blatantly Ripped off (As opposed to the more subtle Rip-Off of On line gambling), By all means Enjoy.

Angel.

Yumi Murakami

DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!

Join date: 27 Sep 2005

Posts: 6,860

07-31-2007 18:13

From: Angelique LaFollette

A Ponzi Scheme is a Scam, Not a gamble, there is No chance of getting money back, so if it's your thing to be so Blatantly Ripped off (As opposed to the more subtle Rip-Off of On line gambling), By all means Enjoy.

People _can_ make their money back from a Ponzi scheme - it's just that most people involved won't.

Desmond Shang

Guvnah of Caledon

Join date: 14 Mar 2005

Posts: 5,250

07-31-2007 18:31

United States law, as best I understand it: if you profit off an unlawful scheme you are liable to its victims, even if it has been a number of years.

It's much like having stolen property - for instance, a stolen car. If found, a stolen car will be recovered to its rightful owner.

Even if you didn't steal it personally, and regardless of how much you paid the thief for it.

Your loss would then be *your* claim against the thief, a separate matter.

_____________________

Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!

shiney Sprocket

Registered User

Join date: 24 Jan 2006

Posts: 254

07-31-2007 18:38

Ponzi's don't alway involve a thief. Some people play them like gambling.

Many go by the name HYIP's or High Yield Investment Programs and people play them willingly. I didn't actually know it was against the ToS.

Rocketman Raymaker

Registered User

Join date: 4 Feb 2007

Posts: 530

07-31-2007 19:44

Hold on, arent pryamid schemes against the TOS?

Why do i see them everywhere when the creator is a very well known resident?

Shouldnt he/she have been banned?

I made the mistake of buying one when i was a newbie and plopped it next to a big pile of them, then the other day someone paid it and i was wondering why i was getting money so i checked my transaction history and discovered why.

As soon as i found out it was this pryamid i contacted the guy who paid it and asked him to show me it, then refunded his money and deleted it immediately as i dont want to lose my account or be a part of this scheme.

BUt i really do wonder why the creator hasnt had anything happen to them because of it and why is that they are allowed to get away with it.

_____________________

"Proud member of the anti-ginko busy body committee"

Strife Onizuka

Moonchild

Join date: 3 Mar 2004

Posts: 5,887

07-31-2007 23:57

In the TOS section 4.1 paragraph 2, section vii strictly prohibits ...

From: Terms Of Service

(iii) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content that violates any law or regulation; ... (vii) upload, post, email or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, or promotional materials, that are in the nature of "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation that Linden Lab considers in its sole discretion to be of such nature;

Ponzi schemes are illegal, thus it is a TOS violation. QED

_____________________

Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river.
- Cyril Connolly

Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence.
- James Nachtwey

Ace Albion

Registered User

Join date: 21 Oct 2005

Posts: 866

08-01-2007 00:44

Someone tell the financial analyst who is convinced SL is a Ponzi scheme/HYIP itself.

_____________________

Ace's Spaces! at Deco (147, 148, 24)
ace.5pointstudio.com

Guido Columbia

Registered User

Join date: 25 Oct 2005

Posts: 102

08-01-2007 05:16

From: Strife Onizuka

In the TOS section 4.1 paragraph 2, section vii strictly prohibits ...

Ponzi schemes are illegal, thus it is a TOS violation. QED

Could someone please inform the Social Security Administration that Ponzi Schemes are illegal. I'm tired of giving them 15% of my money..

Does Putting Money into Ponzi Schemes Count as Wagering?
Carl Metropolitan Registered User Join date: 7 Jul 2005 Posts: 1,031	07-31-2007 13:33 In a ponzi scheme only a small fraction of the people who put money in will pull it out in time to make the large returns offered. The rest will stick it out to the end and see their "deposits" vanish with the ponzi operator. Sounds like "wagering" to me.
Raudf Fox (ra-ow-th) Join date: 25 Feb 2005 Posts: 5,119	07-31-2007 13:35 snickers Umm.. can it be considered wagering if you are guaranteed not to be able to get your money back? _____________________ DiamonX Studios, the place of the Victorian Times series of gowns and dresses - Located at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Fushida/224/176 Want more attachment points for your avatar's wearing pleasure? Then please vote for https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-1065?
ArchTx Edo Mystic/Artist/Architect Join date: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 1,993	07-31-2007 13:50 From: Carl Metropolitan Does Putting Money into Ponzi Schemes Count as Wagering? No, I think of it as charity. Might as well throw it out the window. _____________________ VRchitecture Model Homes at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Shona/60/220/30 http://www.slexchange.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&MerchantID=2240 http://shop.onrez.com/Archtx_Edo
Kidd Krasner Registered User Join date: 1 Jan 2007 Posts: 1,938	07-31-2007 13:55 It doesn't matter. Ponzi schemes are illegal, and hence not allowed under the ToS.
SuezanneC Baskerville Forums Rock! Join date: 22 Dec 2003 Posts: 14,229	07-31-2007 13:58 I don't recall the precise wording but I think the gambling prohibition statement mentions using a random number generator to determine a winner, which the Ponzi scheme doesn't include. _____________________ - So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them. I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne - http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03. Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan -
Avacea Fasching Certified Join date: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 481	07-31-2007 13:58 Ponzi schemes are also againt Policy, So it does not matter. _____________________ post spelling was checked using - Speak & Spell
Object Pascale moshi moshi Join date: 27 Jan 2007 Posts: 648	07-31-2007 14:07 How obvious must a Ponzi scheme be before LL decides to take action?
Chris Norse Loud Arrogant Redneck Join date: 1 Oct 2006 Posts: 5,735	07-31-2007 14:09 From: Kidd Krasner It doesn't matter. Ponzi schemes are illegal, and hence not allowed under the ToS. Unless you are the Federal Government. _____________________ I'm going to pick a fight William Wallace, Braveheart “Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind” Douglas MacArthur FULL
Avacea Fasching Certified Join date: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 481	07-31-2007 14:23 From: Object Pascale How obvious must a Ponzi scheme be before LL decides to take action? as soon as they find out its a ponzi scheme. You could try to throw them off by making it look like a slot machine, yeah, I am sure that would work..... _____________________ post spelling was checked using - Speak & Spell
Colette Meiji Registered User Join date: 25 Mar 2005 Posts: 15,556	07-31-2007 17:35 From: Object Pascale How obvious must a Ponzi scheme be before LL decides to take action? From the circumstantial evidence they have to say: "HEY WE ARE A PONZI SCHEME!" on a giant 100 meter revolving prim billboard.
Osgeld Barmy Registered User Join date: 22 Mar 2005 Posts: 3,336	07-31-2007 17:55 From: Colette Meiji From the circumstantial evidence they have to say: "HEY WE ARE A PONZI SCHEME!" on a giant 100 meter revolving prim billboard. i think thats my neighbors
Tenchi Nishi Registered User Join date: 4 May 2007 Posts: 5	07-31-2007 17:59 Does paying for an SL account count as a gamble? cause its house odds if ya get what ya pay for lol
Angelique LaFollette Registered User Join date: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,595	07-31-2007 18:03 From: Carl Metropolitan In a ponzi scheme only a small fraction of the people who put money in will pull it out in time to make the large returns offered. The rest will stick it out to the end and see their "deposits" vanish with the ponzi operator. Sounds like "wagering" to me. A Ponzi Scheme is a Scam, Not a gamble, there is No chance of getting money back, so if it's your thing to be so Blatantly Ripped off (As opposed to the more subtle Rip-Off of On line gambling), By all means Enjoy. Angel.
Yumi Murakami DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat! Join date: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 6,860	07-31-2007 18:13 From: Angelique LaFollette A Ponzi Scheme is a Scam, Not a gamble, there is No chance of getting money back, so if it's your thing to be so Blatantly Ripped off (As opposed to the more subtle Rip-Off of On line gambling), By all means Enjoy. People _can_ make their money back from a Ponzi scheme - it's just that most people involved won't.
Desmond Shang Guvnah of Caledon Join date: 14 Mar 2005 Posts: 5,250	07-31-2007 18:31 United States law, as best I understand it: if you profit off an unlawful scheme you are liable to its victims, even if it has been a number of years. It's much like having stolen property - for instance, a stolen car. If found, a stolen car will be recovered to its rightful owner. Even if you didn't steal it personally, and regardless of how much you paid the thief for it. Your loss would then be your claim against the thief, a separate matter. _____________________ Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!
shiney Sprocket Registered User Join date: 24 Jan 2006 Posts: 254	07-31-2007 18:38 Ponzi's don't alway involve a thief. Some people play them like gambling. Many go by the name HYIP's or High Yield Investment Programs and people play them willingly. I didn't actually know it was against the ToS.
Rocketman Raymaker Registered User Join date: 4 Feb 2007 Posts: 530	07-31-2007 19:44 Hold on, arent pryamid schemes against the TOS? Why do i see them everywhere when the creator is a very well known resident? Shouldnt he/she have been banned? I made the mistake of buying one when i was a newbie and plopped it next to a big pile of them, then the other day someone paid it and i was wondering why i was getting money so i checked my transaction history and discovered why. As soon as i found out it was this pryamid i contacted the guy who paid it and asked him to show me it, then refunded his money and deleted it immediately as i dont want to lose my account or be a part of this scheme. BUt i really do wonder why the creator hasnt had anything happen to them because of it and why is that they are allowed to get away with it. _____________________ "Proud member of the anti-ginko busy body committee"
Strife Onizuka Moonchild Join date: 3 Mar 2004 Posts: 5,887	07-31-2007 23:57 In the TOS section 4.1 paragraph 2, section vii strictly prohibits ... From: Terms Of Service (iii) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content that violates any law or regulation; ... (vii) upload, post, email or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, or promotional materials, that are in the nature of "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation that Linden Lab considers in its sole discretion to be of such nature; Ponzi schemes are illegal, thus it is a TOS violation. QED _____________________ Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river. - Cyril Connolly Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey
Ace Albion Registered User Join date: 21 Oct 2005 Posts: 866	08-01-2007 00:44 Someone tell the financial analyst who is convinced SL is a Ponzi scheme/HYIP itself. _____________________ Ace's Spaces! at Deco (147, 148, 24) ace.5pointstudio.com
Guido Columbia Registered User Join date: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 102	08-01-2007 05:16 From: Strife Onizuka In the TOS section 4.1 paragraph 2, section vii strictly prohibits ... Ponzi schemes are illegal, thus it is a TOS violation. QED Could someone please inform the Social Security Administration that Ponzi Schemes are illegal. I'm tired of giving them 15% of my money..

Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

Does Putting Money into Ponzi Schemes Count as Wagering?