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Concrete reasons why CopyBot IS counter-productive, and you shouldn't use it.

Xio Jester
Killed the King.
Join date: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 813
11-19-2006 08:41
Some folks that didn't want C.B. before, want it now because of all the "publicity".

* CopyBot kills shops.

* CopyBot has prompted more than 50 MAJOR shops to leave SL permanently. Why is this bad? (sic) Read the next point below.

* Copybot, if "legalized", would drastically slow down original content creation! The amount of Resident created/sold content is the main reason for SL having such a large amount of avatars logged in for you to interact with!

A larger community = more fun in a Virtual World.

Feel free to add more.
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Jesse Malthus
OMG HAX!
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 649
11-19-2006 09:26
From: Xio Jester
Some folks that didn't want C.B. before, want it now because of all the "publicity".

* CopyBot kills shops.

* CopyBot has prompted more than 50 MAJOR shops to leave SL permanently. Why is this bad? (sic) Read the next point below.

* Copybot, if "legalized", would drastically slow down original content creation! The amount of Resident created/sold content is the main reason for SL having such a large amount of avatars logged in for you to interact with!

A larger community = more fun in a Virtual World.

Feel free to add more.

No, "Chicken Little syndrome" kills shops and content creation. Just because a threat to your buisness model is introduced doesn't mean you should close up shop, just that you must adapt to the changing circumstances.
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
11-19-2006 09:27
How about "infringing on copyright/IP is a real life offense, if someone decides they've had enough and makes an example out of you, the fact that you're unverified does you little good because your ISP will comply with court orders just as much as LL will".

Look beyond the tool and start educating people on what is and what isn't allowed or in two months you'll be stuck making the same arguement against something else.
Winter Ventura
Eclectic Randomness
Join date: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2,579
11-19-2006 09:38
As a car maker.. GM, Toyota and Nissan giving away free cars is a far bigger threat than some jokers who want to copy my car model because they can't torture toruses on their own.

Funny.. we're still making cars.
Still selling em too.
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Kyrah Abattoir
cruelty delight
Join date: 4 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,786
11-19-2006 09:47
From: Xio Jester
Some folks that didn't want C.B. before, want it now because of all the "publicity".

* CopyBot kills shops.

* CopyBot has prompted more than 50 MAJOR shops to leave SL permanently. Why is this bad? (sic) Read the next point below.

* Copybot, if "legalized", would drastically slow down original content creation! The amount of Resident created/sold content is the main reason for SL having such a large amount of avatars logged in for you to interact with!

A larger community = more fun in a Virtual World.

Feel free to add more.


you don't have any proofs of what you advance of course, its just your personal beliefs, please peoples stop to be so EMOTIONAL about this issue

all the shops re opened a few hours after the whole crisis cooled down

copybot IS legal, unlawfull uses of copybot arent't.
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ArchTx Edo
Mystic/Artist/Architect
Join date: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,993
11-19-2006 09:57
In all cultures around the world, theft is considered a crime.

"Thou shalt not steal".
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Xio Jester
Killed the King.
Join date: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 813
11-19-2006 10:03
From: Jesse Malthus
No, "Chicken Little syndrome" kills shops and content creation. Just because a threat to your buisness model is introduced doesn't mean you should close up shop, just that you must adapt to the changing circumstances.



...which is exactly why my first post about copybot days ago was for people to Restrict Access to a Subdivision that holds thier shop instead of leaving IF they planned to leave at all. I suggested to "wait n see what happens first". That same day, the majority of the 50 shops I mentioned above, left SL instead. :rolleyes:

Personally, I took my own advice (minus restricting Parcel access), I just kept learning building, scripting, and plannin out future projects for my Parcel :cool:

Unfortunately CopyBot had killed businesses regardless because not everybody thinks about it the same as you and me. *sticks out tongue*

From: Kitty Barnett
How about "infringing on copyright/IP is a real life offense, if someone decides they've had enough and makes an example out of you, the fact that you're unverified does you little good because your ISP will comply with court orders just as much as LL will".


Hallelujah Amen :) :)

From: Kitty Barnett
Look beyond the tool and start educating people on what is and what isn't allowed or in two months you'll be stuck making the same arguement against something else.


The hell I will! God forbid...

Oh there WILL be others exploits yeh. But don't worry...I don't have the patience or attention span to be a "teacher".

Notice I never did say "what is or what isn't allowed".

From: Kyrah Abattoir
you don't have any proofs of what you advance of course, its just your personal beliefs, please peoples stop to be so EMOTIONAL about this issue

all the shops re opened a few hours after the whole crisis cooled down

copybot IS legal, unlawfull uses of copybot arent't.


I never got emotional about C.B. period. LOL! Instead I just formed an opinion on it, and kept livin my 2nd Life. Do you have ... "proofs" that "all the shops re opened a few hours after the whole crisis cooled down"?

No, no, don't bother "hunting them down"...it was a rhetorical question.

Unless President Bush is runnin this Forum I think I'll continue to voice my opinions though :D
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
11-19-2006 10:06
From: ArchTx Edo
In all cultures around the world, theft is considered a crime.

"Thou shalt not steal".


Except that it is never as simple as people make it out.

Copyright Infringement Does Not Equal Theft

Of course, the Prattling Pattys will screech "ZOMG! ARE YOU SAYING IT ISN'T WRONG?!?!". Of course not. It is a DIFFERENT wrong. A MORE COMPLEX wrong. One which is not done justice by simply and lazily falling back on the commandment "Thou shalt not steal".
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
11-19-2006 10:33
From: Jesse Malthus
No, "Chicken Little syndrome" kills shops and content creation. Just because a threat to your buisness model is introduced doesn't mean you should close up shop, just that you must adapt to the changing circumstances.

Considering that you are an outspoken member of LibSL, and a supporter of your right to break the TOS and introduce whatever you want into SL, I'm not surprised by your insult.

Adapting may well MEAN leaving SL. You know, not everyone has the end-all and be-all goal of staying in SL no matter what.

coco
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
11-19-2006 10:41
From: Cocoanut Koala
Adapting may well MEAN leaving SL. You know, not everyone has the end-all and be-all goal of staying in SL no matter what.


Fair point Coco. Many were creating content under the illusion of protection by the permissions system - and it's not all about selling, many people who just love to create purely for the sake of it also have an expectation that their work is protected - a decision to leave SL may be fair enough for some. It's not necessarily over-reacting, it might just be a personal decision not to create under those conditions. There are other ways to create, and yes, I'm sure not everyone will stay at all costs. Adapting may well mean moving to a new medium altogether for some.
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
11-19-2006 11:19
From: Cocoanut Koala
Considering that you are an outspoken member of LibSL, and a supporter of your right to break the TOS and introduce whatever you want into SL, I'm not surprised by your insult.


I'm not an outspoken "member" of LibSL, nor am I a supporter of anyone breaking the ToS, let alone the law, yet I have said the EXACT SAME THING elsewhere. I'm not the only one, either.

I think all you are doing is proving what we're saying 100% correct. The only real losers over this whole hysterical mess are those who got swept up INTO the hysterics. I've yet to see ANY proof that "copybot killed my business" actually is happening, let alone on the scale which even remotely justifies these reactions.

"Yeah, but people are afraid it will!!". Exactly. AFRAID. FEAR. HYSTERICS. FUD. Q.E.D.

WAIT until it DOES, THEN you (and everyone else running around screaming "the sky is falling" at the top of your lungs) will be right and justified in closing up shop and leaving. Until then, make sales (which are STILL happening, by the way, despite Prim Mirror, cache copier, CopyBot, etc), make money, and enjoy your SL.

What is so hard to understand about this concept?

From: someone
Adapting may well MEAN leaving SL. You know, not everyone has the end-all and be-all goal of staying in SL no matter what.


Anyone who has their shop still open and making money right now has no reason to choose that route to adapt. Why should they? Sure, no one HAS to be here, but in the end, if they are a) having fun, and/or b) making money, WHY should they leave?

Unless, of course, it is the "principle of the thing"; to be mad at LL for not doing something they can't do anyway, and to cross one's arms, stamp one's feet, close one's shops, cancel one's account, and leave SL in protest. OK. Works for me. *shrug* At least don't try to construe your reasons as rational and objective.

I stick to my principles, too; however, I try not to allow them to become dogmatic to the point of ignoring reality. To do so is to become nothing more than a religious fanatic.
Jeremy Bender
anachronistic iconoclast
Join date: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 99
11-19-2006 11:32
Man, what a waste of five minutes of my life! :)

I just read this whole page referenced below and it has nothing to do with the debate on this thread at all.
From: Talarus Luan
Except that it is never as simple as people make it out .... Copyright Infringement Does Not Equal Theft....
Not only does it never actually explain why copyright infringement does not equal theft, it is about a totally different topic (open source software).

I am not sure what I think about what copyright is or isn't in the context of this thread, but do everyone a favour and keep on topic. This article has noting to do with anything and despite the fact that four paragraphs in or so the author states his "belief" that infringement is not theft, he doesn't actually ever explain how he came to that conclusion.

If your going to quote an article, please make sure it's:

- relevant to the discussion
- not written by someone unable to express ideas in written form.
Winter Ventura
Eclectic Randomness
Join date: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 2,579
11-19-2006 11:38
I just opened a new shop today. my first ever venture into "self employment".. to date I've been partnering with others. it's a rewarding arrangement, and lessens the work load for all parties, while consolidating the strengths of many into a single product or products, that would have been harder to acheive alone. But along the way, I've made a bunch of things by myself, and it's time those things started earning their keep in my inventory.

I'm not afraid of copybot. Why? because every object I make and sell is more than just the prims it's made of. And no, I'm not talking about textures, or even scripts. I sell a "service contract". Many of my objects are copy only... and if things go wrong, I want to hear about it. I'll usually do what I can to fix the user's issue, and improve my products as a side benefit.

Someone can easily come along and copy my prims. Heck, in one of my objects, the script is full mod.. so they could copy the code out entirely and rip me off.. without any external programs or serious effort.

But I try to keep my prices in the realm of "Eh, it's easier just to buy it".. and I make up the difference on selling more of them. The fact is, that a product is more than just a shape. If your product isn't... odds are you're charging too much anyways.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
11-19-2006 13:14
From: Talarus Luan
I've yet to see ANY proof that "copybot killed my business" actually is happening, let alone on the scale which even remotely justifies these reactions. "Yeah, but people are afraid it will!!". Exactly. AFRAID. FEAR. HYSTERICS. FUD. Q.E.D.

I agree that we have yet to see any proof that copybot killed a business. But we have seen, what, 50 or 100 instances of the illegal use of copybot so far, according to Philip.

I don't think it is hysteria to recognize the reality of this thing. It is realism.

In fact, it seems to me that people trying to say it isn't a problem, or who keep putting everyone else down as hysterical or fanatics, have a bit trouble grasping the obvious.

From: someone
WAIT until it DOES, THEN you (and everyone else running around screaming "the sky is falling" at the top of your lungs) will be right and justified in closing up shop and leaving. Until then, make sales (which are STILL happening, by the way, despite Prim Mirror, cache copier, CopyBot, etc), make money, and enjoy your SL.

The sky isn't falling; it already fell. It fell when Philip didn't use the Town Hall to make all the strong statements he could have. (Quite the opposite, in fact.)

As for me, I've managed to deal with this and make my own decisions - based on the reality of things.

I've reopened my shop, and I'm making sales again. I've weighed my pleasure in SL (MY pleasure, my personal pleasure), against the loaded game we're now in, and decided that I could still get enough pleasure from it to justify my expense on it. At least for now.

Things might get better - I'm hoping they do. And let's face it, things are only as good as they are now precisely BECAUSE content creators didn't roll over and take it.

If things get worse, I will reevaluate. If I lose my investment in my land later by being too hopeful now, so be it. It's a risk.

But if nothing else - at least now I know where content creators stand in LL's eyes. I wish I didn't, though.

coco
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
11-19-2006 13:18
From: Jeremy Bender
Man, what a waste of five minutes of my life! :)

I just read this whole page referenced below and it has nothing to do with the debate on this thread at all.
Not only does it never actually explain why copyright infringement does not equal theft, it is about a totally different topic (open source software).

I am not sure what I think about what copyright is or isn't in the context of this thread, but do everyone a favour and keep on topic. This article has noting to do with anything and despite the fact that four paragraphs in or so the author states his "belief" that infringement is not theft, he doesn't actually ever explain how he came to that conclusion.

If your going to quote an article, please make sure it's:

- relevant to the discussion
- not written by someone unable to express ideas in written form.


I think the author quite eloquently explains why the concept of "copyright infringement = theft" is incorrect, including citing Jefferson's famous letter as well as the complexities involved in the debate, and the fact that there IS a big debate over the issue.

I found the article quite informative on the subject, EVEN THOUGH the outermost context is OSS. I'm sorry if you didn't find it that way, but it is QUITE relevant to the discussion, and I found the author to be QUITE able to express his ideas in written form.

Perhaps maybe if you actually did take the time to read it instead of skimming, maybe you'd see it, too. Maybe not, who knows; not everyone appreciates a well-written article against their point of view.
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
11-19-2006 13:41
From: Cocoanut Koala
I agree that we have yet to see any proof that copybot killed a business. But we have seen, what, 50 or 100 instances of the illegal use of copybot so far, according to Philip.


Actually *we* haven't *seen* anything. LL claims to have some reports where they issued warnings. Is this significantly more than when Prim Mirror came out? How about from the big Texture Theft hullabaloo?

From: someone
I don't think it is hysteria to recognize the reality of this thing. It is realism.


..and what IS that "reality", exactly? What IS the "reality" of CopyBot's existence? Do you KNOW what its reality is, or are you PRESUMING what it will be? Lack of knowledge leads through judgment to presumption, then mixed with fear, uncertainty, and doubt to hysteria.

From: someone
In fact, it seems to me that people trying to say it isn't a problem, or who keep putting everyone else down as hysterical or fanatics, have a bit trouble grasping the obvious.


No one that I have seen (let alone myself) has said it isn't a problem. That's another one of your "presumptions". All I have said is that the problem isn't ANYWHERE NEAR AS BAD as it has been made out to be, and the fact that it IS hysteria based on presumption of a "dark future" by a few people. As such, I don't think it is myself or others who are pointing these facts out that are having trouble grasping the obvious, but instead those who do nothing but PRESUME and REACT instead of THINK.

From: someone
The sky isn't falling; it already fell. It fell when Philip didn't use the Town Hall to make all the strong statements he could have. (Quite the opposite, in fact.)


Wow. So I guess they should just close down SL right now so we can all go somewhere else? More presumption. Maybe you mince words, but when someone tells me "the sky has fallen", I expect to look outside on the ground and see broken pieces of it everywhere I look. I don't see people selling copies everywhere. I don't see people MAKING copies everywhere. I don't see failed businesses everywhere. I don't see closed shops everywhere. In fact, I don't see very many CONTENT CREATORS really all that upset about it; just a vocal few. The rest are continuing to build, sell, socialize, et cetera just like they always did; perhaps making some minor changes to their plans and shoring up security where they can, but are otherwise unfazed by the situation.

I'm really glad that you have decided to stay, and to reopen your shop. I think that was a very wise move. I also hope that you are never subject to having your wares infringed upon to the point where you have no choice but to leave. If it happens, though, I will be most happy to help in your fight against the perps in any way I can. I also believe you will find that the greater community feels the same way.
Jeremy Bender
anachronistic iconoclast
Join date: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 99
11-19-2006 13:54
From: Talarus Luan
... Perhaps maybe if you actually did take the time to read it instead of skimming, maybe you'd see it, too. Maybe not, who knows; not everyone appreciates a well-written article against their point of view.
My apologies for being a bit strident in my response, that was a bit mean of me.

However I did read it (not skim it) and I still don't see anywhere where the author actually explains his point of view vis a vis the title of the piece. The Jefferson quote merely explains about the difficulties of patenting an idea in the first place, and the rest of the article is about how open source software is better than proprietary. (I agree BTW). Whether something is copyright or not and whether copying it is "theft" is a legal argument that isn't even addressed in the article let alone explored in any depth.

Jeffersons musings about how hard it is to protect an idea or truly attribute it's source, and the fact that one is allowed to copy open source software code without it being "theft" does not amount to an argument either for or against the theft of copyrighted material or seeing the manipulation/use of copyrighted material as theft or not. At best this article kind of sets up the ground for an argument to be made, but said argument is lacking. It would make a good introductory section to a longer piece about the concept in question maybe.
Warda Kawabata
Amityville Horror
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,300
11-19-2006 13:59
Well, *my* shop has closed as a rsult of this issue, and I'm selling up the land.

The avatar clothing isn't so badly affected, but copybot has effectively destroyed my prefab building side of my business.

It isn't so much about the money. Sure, that's nice to have, but that was never the main point for me. Copybot is less perfect with avatars, but in conjunction with texture ripping tools, it can make a perfect replica of even the most complex building, and pass it off as their own original work.

That feels like someone is raping my brain.
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
11-19-2006 14:09
From: Jeremy Bender
My apologies for being a bit strident in my response, that was a bit mean of me.


Is OK. There's more than enough snarkiness to go around. ;)

From: someone
However I did read it (not skim it) and I still don't see anywhere where the author actually explains his point of view vis a vis the title of the piece. The Jefferson quote merely explains about the difficulties of patenting an idea in the first place, and the rest of the article is about how open source software is better than proprietary. (I agree BTW). Whether something is copyright or not and whether copying it is "theft" is a legal argument that isn't even addressed in the article let alone explored in any depth.


Well, I COULD have pointed out any of a number of pages on http://www.copyright.gov, or on some of the other sites I linked in the Blog, but I wanted something that had a bit more concrete example, written from a lay perspective.

I think you missed the meat of his "explanation" about his point of view:

From: From the Article
I believe there are more accurate analogies to copyright infringement than "theft". If I own a home, and a brothel moves in next door, their actions have reduced the value of my property. Since running a brothel is not legal in Canada, the activity that reduced my property value is handled under the law. If I instead had a neighbour that simply never kept up their home, this could reduce the value of my property, but in a perfectly legal way. There are even calls to municipal governments to pass by-laws about such activities which reduce property values.

No matter how frustrated I may be about the legal or illegal ways in which other people may reduce the value of my property, it's not rational to use the term "theft" to describe it. Even if the value of my property is reduced to nothing, I still posses the property and thus nothing can be claimed to be stolen.

When someone infringes copyright, they're reducing the value of the copyright in an illegal way, but it is equally inappropriate to use the term "theft".
Just because I entirely reject the concept of "theft" as applied to copyright doesn't mean I feel there's no problem with infringement. The reason I disagree with the word relates to how it closes the minds of those who use it to more modern ways to produce, distribute and fund creativity.

If people believe holding a copyright is like owning a car, it greatly narrows in their mind the ways in which they can possibly make money while at the same time reducing the incentives for people to infringe.

This narrow thinking is also dangerous when in the minds of policy makers who enact laws which, while intended to help creative people, end up greatly harming the majority of us.


Hence, if we take what the author says in a vacuum, he rejects the notion of "copyright infringement = theft", based on a "lack of value loss" proposition. Further, he explains WHY making the incorrect correlation is bad. Sure, there is a LOT more that could be said, but the point in posting it was to quickly and simply shatter the notion, not to filibuster it to death.

After all, why write a book when the concept can be expressed in a few sentences? ;)
Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
11-19-2006 15:40
From: Cocoanut Koala

The sky isn't falling; it already fell. It fell when Philip didn't use the Town Hall to make all the strong statements he could have. (Quite the opposite, in fact.)
[...]
But if nothing else - at least now I know where content creators stand in LL's eyes. I wish I didn't, though.


You would feel more respected if Philip stood up there making hollow threats?

That's on par with daring people and wouldn't help.
Loli Nori
キタ━━(゚∀゚)━━!!
Join date: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 59
11-19-2006 16:04
From: Jesse Malthus
...you must adapt to the changing circumstances.


Ok, adapt to the changing circumstances? This means stop making anything with prims, right? Or at least stop offering free demos for prim-based objects like hair, because someone could buy the demo and make a copy then apply his own textures.

This is absolutely absurd. There is NO reason to own a copybot. If the original creator of an object doesn't keep a copy it's his own fault. If people want to make copies of no-copy objects then only buy copyable objects. It's really not that complicated, but IMO LL should have a zero tolerance policy about this.
Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
11-19-2006 16:43
From: Xio Jester


* CopyBot has prompted more than 50 MAJOR shops to leave SL permanently. Why is this bad? (sic) Read the next point below.
Which?
Alex Fitzsimmons
Resu Deretsiger
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,605
11-19-2006 19:18
From: Fade Languish
Fair point Coco. Many were creating content under the illusion of protection by the permissions system - and it's not all about selling, many people who just love to create purely for the sake of it also have an expectation that their work is protected - a decision to leave SL may be fair enough for some. It's not necessarily over-reacting, it might just be a personal decision not to create under those conditions. There are other ways to create, and yes, I'm sure not everyone will stay at all costs. Adapting may well mean moving to a new medium altogether for some.


On behalf of the forum population as a whole, I have to ask you to cease and desist immediately. Calm and reasonable posts are unacceptable and unwelcome here.
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Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
11-19-2006 19:34
Thank you for posting but the SL forums lack an opinion forum. This thread will be closed.
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