Slander statements

Right now I just got a transcript of someone slandering my name in the sellers guild. She purposely waited till I was in bed to post to the guild so I couldn't even defend myself and then left soon as she noticed I was logged in, I had to get the transcript from a friend. Now I have done MULTIPLE deals in sl, if anyone wants a reference let me know. If anyone wants a transcript of her side of the story let me know.

Before I start saying my side of things I would like to point out atm anyone can say anything about anyone in the guild and unless someone is there to note it, or to defend themselves, they just get to say whatever they want. Personally I think this group is above common name calling and finger pointing. I seriously think if someone sees a theft or wrongdoing, reporting it to an officer and NOT the guild would be better, let the officer report it to the group after its been examined, and validated.

Now then heres my side of this whole story.

Note ** is where a name goes, I won't post it here but you can ask me in game

My billing policy is completely straightfoward and I told ** this when she asked me, its half up front, a quarter at half way, a quarter on completion and acceptance of work. I keep the half as my retainer no matter what. This one we were going to do profit sharing, so she suggested a formal contract. I've done contract deals in sl before so it wasn't anything new I said ok. I expected it by tuesday of the following week, her lawyer friend got home monday, and I don't think it takes that long to write a contract for sl, even if it is a formal business contract. Instead I never met this lawyer once and its saturday now, still no contract.

Basically ** and I met because she was having trouble with a script not so long ago so I offered my help in solving the problem, then we got talking and she asked if it was possible to attach and remove attachments with a script, I said yes but its messy but I had another idea. She heard my proposal on how to make silks remove parts (I'm trying to be slightly vague to protect my scripts I put alot of work into them). I finished the entire system prototype in 2 days, working late hours and pushing it through, I wanted to see it done and my workshop wasn't overly filled atm. I showed it to her and got my quarter then started work of the hud, the hud was done by sunday. Showed it to her and waited to take my last quarter till the contract was completed, she also wanted a change made to the system, I got it done that same day.

Now I've been waiting for almost a week stagnent hanging onto these scripts when she IM's me shes not going to sell silks anymore. I was dumbfounded, after all the work I'd done to get the scripts completed and efficiently because she had the silk done before she even met with me. Now shes trying to change the business agreement. I finally calm her down because she was acting erratic and pissed off. And ask her why she wants to change the deal, she tells me (it was another business/personal matter that is her private business so I won't post it) then starts saying that she wants to do Gothic and Victorian dresses. As an adverage businessman I ask, do you have one I can look at, she says no, so I offer her this, get one done by monday so I can see it and we'll have a meeting. Instead the next day she comes to me and says ok I want to do silks again. So I take another day to think this all over.

Finally I decided to pull out because I won't deal with a completely irratic person when its profit sharing involved. I kept the 10k because the first 5K is my retainer(yes I only took a third as my retainer, she was short on lindens at the time), I told her this before she even hired me, I keep that no matter what, the second 5K she never asked for , I figured since I had been sitting there patiently for almost a week she wanted me to keep it. If she wanted it back, why didn't she ask?

This is my account of everything that happened. If ** wants to post her side of things here please do. But I won't be the one to do it.

Thank you all for your consideration and I hope some real change as to how we as a guild handle theft and bad business deals so we can avoid slander in the future.

Edit: I just gave back 5k. I'm keeping the first 5k as per my business policy.

Considering the fact that the price you asked initially (for a script that in the end is quite elementary) could be considered a total ripoff, i'd say you could have put up with a LOT more erratic behavioir.
Anyway don't worry, i'll do the script for her for free (since it's quite an easy one), so everyone will be happy.

This type of thing is going to happen in the Guild repeatedly unless we all agree on disallowing it. Whilst I know many members want to be able to name names and work collectively against theives we also have problems like this which seem to be simple misunderstandings and miscommunications getting escalated out of control.

I think there is far more damage done in allowing the names of alledged theives to be mentioned than there is by sticking to the policy of "innocent until proven guilty". This is a slipery slope into mob rule.

John has suggested a clever proposal that any claims should be made to the Guild Officers ONLY for investigation. And perhaps the Officers or some sort of investigation committee could help both parties see the dispute more objectively. Should both parties be unable to settle the dispute via discussion between themselves or in conjunction with investigators/Officers then they can persue legal actions or reports to Lindens.

I think that naming names is probably the single most destructive thing that can happen to our guild. It will create factions and turn our guild from a diverse unity into a war zone.

On top of all of this I need to remind you all that:

CS 4. Disclosure
Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Lives. Sharing personal information about a fellow Resident --including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, and real-world location beyond what is provided by the Resident in the First Life page of their Resident profile is a violation of that Resident's privacy. Remotely monitoring conversations, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without consent are all prohibited in Second Life and on the Second Life Forums.

TOS 4.1

In addition to abiding at all times by the Community Standards, you agree that you shall not:
.....
(iv) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden Lab at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;

Can anybody argue that we are better off naming names Guild wide rather than to Officers only?

I agree totally - not naming names.

I have been a silent member of the guild for about a week now and the other night I witnessed a converstaion within the group IM that I would class as "a blood thirsty mob".

With names being thrown around and people sending tp's and chat transcripts amongst themselves regarding a shop and owner selling someone elses goods.

If the guild wants to maintain any credibility ( with both LL and the public ) it cannot descend into mob rule regardless of the situation - it has to follow procedure.

Just my two cents.

Lets not degrade this discussion into how much things should cost. That is between the buyer and the seller only.

But this is what the guild was founded for. To try and bring a group voice to SL to fight texture theft and the reselling of stolen intellectual property. The whole point is a place where we can name names, where we can ban people from our property if they are knowingly and willfully selling stolen property should we choose to. If we can't name names amongst ourselves we cannot: a) investigate the claims to discover if in our estimation it is a case of such theft, b) take action to protect ourselves as best we can and c) bring a unified voice to the powers that be that there is a problem and here is a specific case or cases.

No, we don't want lynch mobs, but we do need a way to voice issues amongst ourselves.

Char

Voice yes. I founded the group and started the forums and I didn't do it so I could name names. And here is the crux of the matter, you have gone from naming names to guilty as charged without trial or review. Then after claiming them guilty by publically smearing their name you will then investigate if its true. Imagine if the law was like this in your country in real life. Do you really want guilty before proven innocent? Can you undo the damage to credibility of a innocent victim of a charge after it had been made in an open group that ANYONE can read?

You made the internet version of a lynch mob.

There needs to be a small subsection of the group that checks into claims of theft prior to de facto guilt being assumed.

I propose we form an investigative committee who after investigation by the impartial committee can then represent the copyright owner by confronting the alledged theif. If the issue is not resolved then the investigative committee will advise the copyright holder on their rights according the CS, TOS and real life law. I propose that the committee be formed of 5 neutral parties who then vote after seeing the claim.

Anyone wanting a lynch mob (who wants "guilty before proven innocent" that defies the CS and TOS should probably form their own Guild and use that as a platform to launch their war from. I have no interest in being a part of it.

Respectable organisations speak with reason not with emotions.

I'm in favor of that, Psyke. It would be a kind of informal investigative committee and since officers will be elected, we can assume they represent the interests of the SG.

I would only hope that we don't fall into a Linden habit of seeing our petitions come to nothing -- even a detailed report back that no fault could be found would be better than simply getting an email "Abuse Report resolved". One of the key motivators for this guild in the first place was our feeling of powerlessness when appealling to the Lindens to do something about IP theft.

I would back that, and agree to it - and Cindy's note that some sort of report ( albeit just a notecard explaining the findings ) be made available for each investigation.

I do not want a lynch mob mentality, however I do want an open place to be able to discuss concerns with the next member freely. I do not want to be under a dictatorship which apparently is what this is turning into based on the statements above. An organization is only effective when it acknowledges that it must reflect the views and values of its memberS <plural mine>.

While I do understand your underlying reasoning, the "I founded the group..." reminds me of the old "this is mine and if you don't do what i want, you can't play with it" mentality.

All this brings me back to one of my original questions - What is the purpose of the Seller's Guild??? Maybe once that is clarified everyone can knowledgably evaluate if this is indeed the group for them.

This is exactly what I am waiting for...