Ethics for salespeople

This is something I'd love to be part of a full-out discussion on, but my schedule makes that possibility unlikely.
I am interested in what others believe to be the ethical guidelines for salespeople. Not just people hired to stand in a store and help others, but salespeople who go to places throughout the grid (perhaps public spaces, or spaces owned by other residents) to sell products or services. This is particularly interesting since I hire newbies to act as "newsies," trying to drum up interested buyers around the grid to buy issues of my newspaper "The Democrat."
I'm also interested in where people think the TOS end and ethics begin in this matter.
Here are some more specific questions, if you're confused:
1) What is the difference (if any) between an unwanted and an unexpected sales pitch, be it via chat, IM or notecard?
2) Is it ethical to shout a sales pitch to a whole sim?
3) Are public spaces in SL analagous to public spaces in US cities, where people are free to solicit others?
4) What are ethical guidelines for landowners in regards to people who want to talk to others on their land?

There is really not much to worry about in terms of ethics when doing business in this game.

1) What is the difference (if any) between an unwanted and an unexpected sales pitch, be it via chat, IM or notecard?

*None. It is perfectly fine.


2) Is it ethical to shout a sales pitch to a whole sim?

*Yes.


3) Are pubic spaces in SL analagous to public spaces in US cities, where people are free to solicit others?

*Yes. Everywhere your av can enter is public area. What is unethical is harassment. But sales pitches do not count.


4) What are ethical guidelines for landowners in regards to people who want to talk to others on their land?

*You can do whatever you want anywhere. The land owner should respectfully ask you to discontinue if they do not want you selling on their land. It is not ethical t do so if the land has rules against it.

Good questions, Gxeremio! I have a few thoughts and experiences on this, but I'd like to raise these questions to the group first. Perhaps I'll use this topic for next week's Talking Ethics, starting Sunday. I'll IM you in-world about them.

Sel
(:

Here are a few ethical guidelines I use in my businesses :

1) Advertise in such a way that you're welcomed, not scorned for spamming.
2) If someone can't afford to buy your product, don't try to sell it to them.
3) Be honest.
4) Keep your promises. Write down agreements and stick to them.
6) Allow your customers to mess up sometimes - they're human and make mistakes.
7) If you find your primary motivation for doing something is to make money, examine carefully if you should really be in that business at all. Similarly, if the phrase "because I can" or "because I can get away with it" enter into your thinking, now is the time to stop and re-evaluate.
If your conscience bothers you, listen to it.
9) Listen to your customers' ethical arguments. You can ignore irrational emotional stuff, but if someone presents you with an an argument that something you do is ethical/unethical, you should consider it.
10) If in doubt, get a second opinion.

I just wanted to leave an update here on the discussions. We just did the first Talking Ethics on marketing ethics in SL last night. We'll be repeating the same theme for the rest of the week, on Tuesday August 8 at 4 PM SLT, and Thursday August 10 at 1 PM SLT.

Sel
(:

I'm posting the Talking Ethics chat log from Tuesday, August 8, 2006 where we discussed marketing and sales ethics in SL. Enjoy!

Sel

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[16:04] You: Welcome everyone to Talking Ethics today!
[16:04] Ono Noh: but then again: how will we know it's really him? :)
[16:04] Lazarus Bogan: thanks
[16:05] You: heh
[16:05] Maus Ennui nods
[16:05] Yogeswari Padar: his voice is pretty distinctive
[16:05] Neal Stewart: And his words :)
[16:05] Yogeswari Padar: if you've ever heard him you'll be able to tell :)
[16:05] Jen Bamatter: what is this place
[16:05] Yogeswari Padar: lol neal, so true
[16:05] You: Is everyone all right with my keeping a log of this discussion for others who couldn't be here today... I may post it in the ethics forums (:
[16:05] Yogeswari Padar: sure!
[16:05] Ono Noh: sure
[16:05] Nolligan Nino: i came for a meeting on ethics
[16:06] Lazarus Bogan: sure
[16:06] You shout: Come on in for ethics, guys
[16:06] Maus Ennui nods "yep"
[16:06] Neal Stewart: As long as I don't accidentally say anything stupid :)
[16:06] You: welcome nolligan
[16:06] Nolligan Nino: hello
[16:07] You: This week, our theme is the ethics of sales and marketing in SL... What ethical guidelines should we have when marketing in SL?
[16:07] Lazarus Bogan: that is a good question
[16:07] Maus Ennui: hooo boy. ;]
[16:07] Yogeswari Padar: big topic!
[16:07] You: Where does our right to sell/market end and someone else's right to privacy/not be disturbed begin?
[16:07] Yogeswari Padar: perhaps i have been fortunate, but i do not feel put upon by marketers in SL at all
[16:07] Neal Stewart: I suppose it would be useful to ask what differences there can be between marketing in SL and marketing in the real-world.
[16:08] Maus Ennui: Well, I've recently run into street peddlers in sandboxes.
[16:08] Lazarus Bogan: i think that the marketers in SL should be as easy about selling you something
[16:08] Maus Ennui: Sometimes that can be a little off-putting
[16:08] Ono Noh: I have actually found marketing to be much more intrusive in RL
[16:08] Yogeswari Padar: i agree
[16:09] Neal Stewart: How so, Ono?
[16:09] Lazarus Bogan: they shouldn't try to get you to buy something right there and then
[16:09] Nolligan Nino: agreed i hate cold calling marketers
[16:09] You: Is that the nature of SL as a medium, because we can just walk away from the computer if there's something we don't like, or more to do with how marketers in SL market?
[16:09] Krisjohn Twin: Active marketing is not as bad in SL as it is in RL, but the passive stuff basically ruins whole areas. People need to learn to be subtle, not that that's an ethical issue, just an athetics one.
[16:09] Maus Ennui: I can't recall, but I think I saw a gentleman in the SL forums talking about how he made money as a newbie that way.
[16:10] Neal Stewart: But with cold-calls you can hang up, in SL there are places where you might get hit-up to buy something and you have no choice but to leave if you're not interested.
[16:10] Ono Noh: I have a greater deal of freedom in movement here in SL, whereas I am forced to traverse specific routes trough the city in RL which marketers take advantage of
[16:10] Lazarus Bogan: yea but the marketers are supose to want to get you to buy what they are selling not make you angry so you walk away from your computer
[16:10] Nolligan Nino: i get cold calls even though i have opted out
[16:10] Neal Stewart: That's true, Ono.
[16:10] Nolligan Nino: yes
[16:11] Lazarus Bogan: it is kinda different for me since i am in the market as an employee of a big company
[16:11] Ono Noh: also, mediums are more into one-to-many structures than in SL, increasing the incentive to market
[16:11] Lazarus Bogan: and i try and sell stuff to people
[16:11] Nolligan Nino: what about marketing items that are unethical - e.g. nazi t-shirts or rascist stuff?
[16:11] Maus Ennui: I think that SL is going to go through a bit of a bumpy time as RL businesses move into SL. But, what about Well's Fargo?
[16:12] Maus Ennui: Don't they have a sim?
[16:12] Ono Noh: What is that?
[16:12] Maus Ennui: I read about it, and yet nothing has hit my radar about it for more than several months.
[16:12] Maus Ennui: A bank.
[16:12] Lazarus Bogan: o ok
[16:12] Kitten Lulu: they left SL
[16:13] Maus Ennui: Ah!
[16:13] Lazarus Bogan: i have made more friends with the job in SL that i have any i probably would normally
[16:14] Lazarus Bogan: the reason is that when i try and sell something to somebody i just find somebody and start talking and try and have the conversation go twards what i am buying
[16:14] Maus Ennui: Laz - you mean, what you are selling?
[16:14] Lazarus Bogan: yea selling
[16:14] Lazarus Bogan: sorry
[16:15] You: To be ethical, is it necessary make clear that you are working in sales when you converse with them?
[16:15] Maus Ennui: I would find that kind of tactic a bit manipulative, does it work well for you?
[16:15] Lazarus Bogan: yea
[16:15] Neal Stewart: Good question, Selaras.
[16:15] Lazarus Bogan: that is true
[16:15] Kitten Lulu: mmh, maybe it's self evident.
[16:15] Kitten Lulu: Like me in my shop, which has my own name
[16:16] Lazarus Bogan: i do use the ethics in here that i would out in the real world
[16:16] Maus Ennui: Kitten, sure... I love it when shop owners are in. In fact, I prefer to buy from a place where I can meet the av who made it!
[16:16] You: I agree, that in your shop, it's a bit more clearcut and self-evident...
[16:17] Neal Stewart: How many people here would feel that they had had their time wasted if they found out that someone had only been speaking to them socially in order to try sell them something?
[16:17] Karen Schreiner: yes
[16:17] Ono Noh: yeah
[16:17] Krisjohn Twin: I would
[16:18] You: What about a sales rep who's not working in the shop/place of business? Is it an ethical necessity for anyone giving a direct sales pitch to make clear that he's getting paid to do it?
[16:18] Nolligan Nino: you can normally tell good salesmen work to a scxript
[16:18] Maus Ennui thinks she'd be a little miffed, unless I was obviously looking for something specific.
[16:18] Lazarus Bogan: one thing about it i start talking to them more than just to try and sell them something
[16:18] Neal Stewart: What if, in the person's mind they felt that they were 50% interested in making a friend and 50% interested in selling something? :)
[16:18] Lazarus Bogan: to tell the truth in all honesty i haven't sold a single thing the way i have been talking to people
[16:18] You: heh
[16:19] Maus Ennui: Selar - I think it should be disclosed. I find that kind of sales pitch dishonest.
[16:19] You: As a person, I think I'd rather have those two things separated -- unless I was there specifically as a consumer. But if I'm not in a shop, I don't want people coming up to me to sell things.
[16:19] Lazarus Bogan: before you start talking how dishonest the way i have been "selling" listen to this first
[16:19] Maus Ennui: It reminds me of my friend who's into amway... and it kind of hurts him.
[16:20] Lazarus Bogan: i haven't sold a single thing being 100% honest all i have done is made friends
[16:20] You: Interesting... can you say more about that, Maus?
[16:20] Maus Ennui: Laz - no I don't think you're dishonest directly. I think it's not ethical to approach someone with the intention of a sale... under the guise of a new friendship.
[16:21] Lazarus Bogan: but i have made a newfriendship and haven't sold anything so it ended we were 100% friends and im not trying to sell them anything
[16:21] You: Though to be fair, it could just be casual social conversation that may or may not lead to friendship... We could argue that by having the social conversation, he's not just treating them like a sale, but rather as a person.
[16:21] Maus Ennui: If you came at me with a shirt that said -ask me about my anatomical appendages... and then started chatting me up friendly.
[16:21] Neal Stewart: How do you mean, Selaras?
[16:22] Maus Ennui: Then I would have a chance to decide if I wanted to know more about those appendages you were selling. But, if I didn't I wouldn't be put off by being causal and conversational.
[16:22] Lazarus Bogan: could i just explain how i sell stuff even though i haven't really sold anything
[16:22] You: The ethics of this point seems to hinge on intention... If his whole intent is to make a sale, and he's "using" friendly conversation to make that sale without disclosing that he's in sales, that seems dishonest.
[16:23] erwinfire Yamauba: hi Krisjohn
[16:23] Maus Ennui: It doesn't seem like Laz's sole intent is to sell...
[16:23] You: But, if his job is to make a sale, but his intent is to meet people and make friends too -- it's not dishonest for him to be meeting people and making friends.
[16:23] erwinfire Yamauba: i fancy you honey :o
[16:23] Lazarus Bogan: THANKS MAUS IT ISN'T
[16:23] Maus Ennui nods
[16:23] Neal Stewart: I see what you mean Selaras.
[16:23] Lazarus Bogan: IF YOU PEOPLE WOULD LISTEN TO HOW I "SELL" THEN YOU WOULD GET THE HOLE PICTURE
[16:23] Neal Stewart: But isn't it also his intent to fulful his job?
[16:24] You: Yeah, the friendly chatting might be an issue for his boss to think about ;)
[16:24] Krisjohn Twin: If someone said that they were using their sales role to get up the courage to meet people, I might understand -- or I might think they're a manipulative bastard.
[16:24] Maus Ennui: Laz - hon this isn't personal... it's an ethical discussion. Hypotheticals... no biggie, no judgement.
[16:24] Lazarus Bogan: than stop using him
[16:24] Neal Stewart: I think you've become a hypothetical salesman, Lazarus :)
[16:24] Lazarus Bogan: and his
[16:25] Yogeswari Padar: well, having been a lobbyist and in sales in RL, i think it's important to remember that building relationships is essential in sale
[16:25] Lazarus Bogan: i try to be as nice and friendly as possible
[16:25] Yogeswari Padar: sales
[16:25] Lazarus Bogan: my boss sayed be friends then sell
[16:25] You: Lazarus, unfortunately, the default gender in English is in the masculine form. I wasn't necessarily referring to you, I hope you didn't take it that pointedly :\
[16:25] Krisjohn Twin: But the ethics of it is that if you're approaching someone in a particular way, but you have a financial interest in selling something to them, you should disclose that interest.
[16:25] Lazarus Bogan: and they are great people and nice and i would talk to them even if i wasn't trying to sell anything
[16:25] Yogeswari Padar: i agree, krisjohn
[16:25] Maus Ennui nods in agreement with Kris
[16:26] Nolligan Nino: marketing is not just sales though its ideas too - people out to convert others to their religion or politics. as yet i haven't seen it in sl but it will happen
[16:26] Neal Stewart: What's complicated is that SL is about 70% content creators, so you have a citizenship of people with financial interests :)
[16:26] Lazarus Bogan: i have a question for everyone
[16:26] Kitten Lulu: that goes on in the forums mostly, Nolligan :-)
[16:26] Lazarus Bogan: how would you like somebody to sell you something without you going to there store
[16:27] Yogeswari Padar: you mean like direct marketing in SL?
[16:27] Lazarus Bogan: how would you aproch somebody sellig something
[16:27] Yogeswari Padar: i would cancel my membership
[16:27] Maus Ennui: I would not enjoy an unsolicited cold call.
[16:27] You: That's reasonable... Financial interest should be disclosed somehow, either as something obvious like having your name on the store/vendors, or if you're a sales rep, maybe a button/shirt/statement of disclosure.
[16:27] Krisjohn Twin: @Neal, in that case it could be assumed that everyone has an interest in selling their own builds or promoting their shops and it doesn't necessarily need to be disclosed: Like a salesperson in a store.
[16:28] You: a field sales rep, I should say
[16:28] Neal Stewart: That's an interesting point, Krisjohn and that changes things doesn't it.
[16:28] Lazarus Bogan: HOW WOULD YOU GUYS APROCH SOMEBODY WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO SELL THEM SOMETHING WITHOUT THEM GOING TO THE STORE
[16:28] Krisjohn Twin: If the norm is to assume everyone in SL is trying to sell something, it doesn't need to be disclosed. That part is no longer unethical and we get back to a discussion about spam.
[16:29] You: I'm not sure we should assume everyone is trying to sell something!
[16:29] Maus Ennui doesn't sell things
[16:29] Friendly Story: hello
[16:29] Kitten Lulu: Yeah
[16:29] Lazarus Bogan: if you tell somebody you are selling something they tell you to go away
[16:29] You: Even if we sell things, it doesn't mean we're trying to sell things.
[16:29] Friendly Story: not sure whaere the door is lol
[16:29] Krisjohn Twin: IF the norm...
[16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Friendly, same problem here >:)
[16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww
[16:30] You: welcome Friendly and Gwyn (:
[16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you :)
[16:30] Neal Stewart: Hi Gwyn. Long time :)
[16:30] You: ah yes, Kris. If.
[16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn waves at Neal ;)
[16:30] Kitten Lulu: Lazarus, I'd say that you need to find the need or desidre that a product address.
[16:31] Lazarus Bogan: anybody if somebody was trying to sell you something and they weren't going to disclose anything and they said hello my name is......and i am in sales
[16:31] Kitten Lulu: If see someone that may benefit from my product, I'd just openly say to them that I have a product that solves one of their problem and if they want to listen to me I'll explain how.
[16:31] Krisjohn Twin: (Unfortunately I gotta go or I won't get into work on time. Sorry.)
[16:31] Friendly Story: I bought something off the street so to speak
[16:31] Neal Stewart: Bye Krisjohn
[16:31] You: Take care Kris!
[16:31] Kitten Lulu: bye Kris
[16:32] You: okay, I'd like to get everyone's pulse on a few questions...
[16:32] Friendly Story: didn't bother me that the person was selling something
[16:32] Neal Stewart: What about products that aren't really problem-oriented?
[16:32] Kitten Lulu: desires
[16:32] Lazarus Bogan: ok
[16:32] Maus Ennui: Kitten - I was just thinking about that... like if you see someone struggling with tiny av construction, and you have compression anims to sell?
[16:32] You: Do you guys think it's ethical to IM anyone asking for their business?
[16:32] Lazarus Bogan: EVERYBODY STOP TYPING
[16:32] Lazarus Bogan: sure
[16:32] Kitten Lulu: IM anyone?
[16:32] Kitten Lulu: what do you mean?
[16:32] Neal Stewart: The problem with marketing is when the person selling comes and creates the desire then offers the solution :)
[16:33] Lazarus Bogan: you could ask them if they are selling anything
[16:33] Maus Ennui: Instant Message (direct private message)
[16:33] You: Send an IM trying to sell something
[16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah.
[16:33] Friendly Story: well I wouldn't want to be spammed all the time, but if someone came up to me on the street and asked if I wanted to buy something that would be okay
[16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "unsolicited IM"? :)
[16:33] Kitten Lulu: I'd consider an IM without previous contact as an unsolicited email
[16:33] You: yes, exactly (:
[16:33] Friendly Story: im should be more personal I agree
[16:33] Lazarus Bogan: i wouldn't want a sales person IMing me
[16:33] Maus Ennui would not like IM from solicitors for any reason
[16:33] Kitten Lulu: most probably, I'd just ignore it -
[16:34] Nolligan Nino: no i wouldn't like unsolicited IM sales
[16:34] Neal Stewart: Yesterday I'd got IM'd from a random. The lady TPd me to a store where you received a free pair of shoes if you're first initial matches the one they were looking for.
[16:34] You: Welcome to all our newcomers (: Our topic this week is the ethics of sales and marketing in Second Life
[16:34] Tang Maradona: thanksfully I don't get unsolicited IM's
[16:34] Nolligan Nino: thats cold calling
[16:34] Neal Stewart: She TPd me because my initial matched and then asked me to give her the pair of shoes :)
[16:34] Friendly Story: lol
[16:34] You: heh, what'd you think of that, Nael?
[16:35] Lazarus Bogan: that would be anyoying if somebody did that to me
[16:35] Friendly Story: well did ya give them to her?
[16:35] You: and did you give her the shoes? ;)
[16:35] Friendly Story: lol
[16:35] Neal Stewart: Heh heh. This was yesterday. I didn't know what the deal was. I thought it was a sex thing when she told me to sit in the chair and give her my shoes :P
[16:35] Neal Stewart: Yeah, I'm a nice guy :)
[16:35] Lazarus Bogan: i wouldn't go to that place i would say may i help you or something like that
[16:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, that happened to me once as well. It seems to be a popular way to attract people.
[16:35] Tom Mower: hey bitches, whats the beef?
[16:35] Kitten Lulu: I wouldn't accept a teleport without an IM before it
[16:36] Neal Stewart: It didn't bother me because I found it an amusing practice. If it happened a second time I would refuse.
[16:36] Kitten Lulu: I'd ask what's going on before accepting.
[16:36] Lazarus Bogan: i would ask them were they are and why they want to teleport me
[16:36] Tang Maradona: and i odn't accept TP at all if I don't know the person
[16:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn is mostly listening today :)
[16:36] Neal Stewart: I get curious :)
[16:36] Kitten Lulu: I fear becaues I have been invited to too many silly clubs contents to accept unsolicited tps
[16:36] Tang Maradona: don't know what you are getting into
[16:36] Neal Stewart: Nothing you can't quickly get out-to :)
[16:36] Maus Ennui never accept unsolicited tp's
[16:36] You: Ethically, is sending an IM to a group to sell something any different from sending an IM to an avatar?
[16:37] Friendly Story: humm
[16:37] Tom Mower: so do you guys sit around doing this every evening? I mean has anybody here heard of FPSs
[16:37] Friendly Story: good question
[16:37] Tang Maradona: if the group is a selling group or shopping group no
[16:37] Maus Ennui: Sel - I think it depends on the group purpose.
[16:37] Friendly Story: fps?
[16:37] Lazarus Bogan: it kinda is ethical
[16:37] Maus Ennui: Sel - if it is a group that condones sales IM, then sure!
[16:37] Neal Stewart: First person shooters.
[16:37] Tom Mower: lol
[16:37] Lazarus Bogan: because then it isn't so personal
[16:37] Kitten Lulu: if it's not against the group charter, I'd find it ok.
[16:37] Friendly Story: Oh!!
[16:37] Kitten Lulu: Howver, it's almost always against the group rules.
[16:37] Tang Maradona: exactly, if not against group charter
[16:38] You: hey Tom, you're welcome to join us in Talking Ethics if you'd like, but please keep in mind that this is a PG event, and if anybody is disruptive, I'll respectfully have to ask them to leave. (:
[16:38] Tang Maradona: but if you make a group to inform ppl of sales and such and ppl join then they can't complain about the IM's cuz they joined the group
[16:38] Maus Ennui: Sel - for example, if I knew that if I joined the shoe group, and i loved any and all opportunities to buy shoes... i would love to get those messages. but i opted for it.
[16:38] Friendly Story: my kind of group lol
[16:38] Tang Maradona: lol
[16:39] Tom Mower: I respect the fact that you wish to keep this a PG event and I also see the clear need to discuss ethics on such a grand scale, in such lovely surroudnings - however ...
[16:39] Tom Mower: ... bite me
[16:39] You: That makes sense... What about the ethics of shouting your sales pitch out to a whole region?
[16:39] You: Please leave, Tom! Thanks for visiting!
[16:39] Avatar ejected.
[16:39] Tang Maradona: if it ok with the regon yes, but it usually isn't
[16:39] Friendly Story: smiles that was done quickly
[16:39] Yuna Undertone: hey look i got in
[16:39] Neal Stewart: Did anyone bite him before he left?
[16:39] Tang Maradona: wtg yuna
[16:39] Lazarus Bogan: good job yuna
[16:40] Friendly Story: LOLO
[16:40] Yuna Undertone: 0.0
[16:40] Friendly Story: funny!!
[16:40] You: Oh, "bite" him? I read that as "ban".
[16:40] Tang Maradona: lol
[16:40] Neal Stewart: Next week's discussion: the ethics of banning avatars from ethics discussions... :P
[16:40] Friendly Story: good topic lol
[16:40] Lazarus Bogan: lol
[16:40] You: (:
[16:41] You: What did everyone else think about shouting sales pitches out to everyone around you?
[16:41] Yuna Undertone: why are we all sitting here
[16:41] Neal Stewart: I think that's maybe a no-brainer. What do you guys think?
[16:41] Friendly Story: it's an ethics discussion
[16:41] Tang Maradona: if it is ok with the owner of the property then it is ok
[16:41] You: Welcome Yuna, we're Talking Ethics, the topic is ethics of marketing in SL (:
[16:41] Kitten Lulu: I'd find it upsetting
[16:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can we go back to topic? :)
[16:41] Tang Maradona: cuz if you don't wanna hear that from that avi you can mute
[16:42] Lazarus Bogan: shouting sales pitches isn't the way to sell something it just makes the business you are selling for look stupid
[16:42] Friendly Story: I think I would do, honetly I've been in situations befoe where vendors did that very thing, and it's upsetting
[16:42] Lazarus Bogan: i would expect alittle kid to be doing that
[16:42] You: Is there an ethical difference between shouting it and saying it in chat?
[16:42] Friendly Story: good grief my spellling
[16:42] Neal Stewart: Good question.
[16:42] Tang Maradona: no
[16:42] Yuna Undertone: im gonna play with the door
[16:42] Kitten Lulu: Not really.
[16:42] Craig Sarlo: hey yuna
[16:42] Maus Ennui: Sel - saying it in chat? or saying it in IM?
[16:43] Yuna Undertone: yes
[16:43] You: in chat
[16:43] Kitten Lulu: hwoever, I'd find shouting more rude, I can live with chatting
[16:43] Lazarus Bogan: i would say it depends on the sales pitch
[16:43] Kitten Lulu: but shouting affects nearly half a sim
[16:43] Maus Ennui: Sel - cause I could just sit around and talk about my stuff... and people could pass by.
[16:43] Lazarus Bogan: like buy suits here i would expect that on a streat corner
[16:43] Kitten Lulu: In a general situation, I wouldn't like it.
[16:43] Kitten Lulu: I wouldn't consider it necessarily unethical
[16:43] Nickolas Bogan: what haappen here?
[16:44] Craig Sarlo: was the door fun yuna?
[16:44] Kitten Lulu: In some specific situations, I would find it normal --- like in a market area in a role-playing scenario
[16:44] Lazarus Bogan: i wouldn't say it is un ethical but it is just silly
[16:44] Yuna Undertone: uh huh
[16:44] You: Do you guys think marketing in chat/shout requires permission from the land owner/event host to be ethical?
[16:44] Kitten Lulu: however I've never seen sales rp'ed in SL
[16:44] Craig Sarlo: lol
[16:44] Tang Maradona: yes
[16:44] Friendly Story: nickolas? it's a discussion group
[16:44] Maus Ennui: Sel - yes
[16:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder about that as well, Kitten. Imagine a bazaar type of mall, where people would shout their wares,
[16:44] Tang Maradona: annoying but ethical
[16:44] Nickolas Bogan: hum...im out
[16:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: not unlike what happens with some MMORPGs.\
[16:44] You: heh
[16:44] Lazarus Bogan: not exactly
[16:44] Nolligan Nino: no i think it is permisible - free speech
[16:44] Yuna Undertone: hey people whatch
[16:44] Lazarus Bogan: they could always tell the person selling to go away
[16:45] Kitten Lulu: Whip of Pleasure +5 only 50000gp
[16:45] Tang Maradona: if the owner of the property allows it
[16:45] Kitten Lulu: :-)

[16:45] You: Okay, I've got a dilemma for us to discuss...
[16:45] Kitten Lulu: could work in a Gorean sim
[16:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye. So it would be +allowed+.
[16:45] Tang Maradona: ok sal
[16:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe even outside ;)
[16:45] Neal Stewart: The land owner/even host isn't the be-all-and-end-all. If you got their permission to shoot their residents, it wouldn't necessarily be OK with each resident.
[16:45] You: Quincy is a builder in SL who owns a construction company. To spread the word about his services, he makes some scripted objects to give out information notecards to avatars in SL.
[16:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn admits to have dropped on a Gorean slave market once by mistake....
[16:46] You: He sets up these info givers all over SL to reach as many avs as possible. Ray has been getting these notecards repeatedly and asks Quincy to stop sending him the advertisements. Is Quincy ethically obligated to change what he is doing?
[16:46] Tang Maradona: yes
[16:46] Neal Stewart: Who's land is the info givers on?
[16:46] Neal Stewart: *Whose
[16:46] Tang Maradona: cuz usually the giving of unsolicitad notecards is a bounce from most sims
[16:46] Nolligan Nino: if they are intrusive and enough people object i would say yes
[16:46] Lazarus Bogan: selaras were you headbanging...
[16:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hah. Selaras, you know that this thingy actually exists?
[16:47] You: Let's assume for a moment that the info givers are on land owned by Quincy, but Ray gets them whether or not he's on land owned by Quincy.
[16:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean the notecard advertisement
[16:47] Maus Ennui: Sel - like when he passes by?
[16:47] You: heh, yes, I was inspired (:
[16:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I did have some discussions with the owner because of it, since he used a llSensor to detect nearby users, and drop them a notecard,
[16:47] Kitten Lulu: I would consider the notecard givers unethical on the first place, unless there is some way to avoid them *and* there are clear signs before you are in their range or about to get the notecard (like, passing this doorway, you'll get a commercial notecard
[16:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: under the Community Standards this counts as "spamming" because it doesn't have an opt-out feature.
[16:47] You: Right Maus, when he passes by.
[16:48] Yuna Undertone: ta da
[16:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Kitten.
[16:48] Kitten Lulu: notecards are very intrusive, I'd find IM better but still a bit unappropriate
[16:48] Yuna Undertone: uhhh
[16:48] Lazarus Bogan: if somebody was going to give out notecard that person should have something that people click on to get the notecard
[16:48] You: Interesting... what if it all happens on Quincy's land?
[16:49] Maus Ennui: Kitten - but what about ownership of the property?
[16:49] Nolligan Nino: the RL equivalent here could be autodiallers
[16:49] Kitten Lulu: mmh, that's a bit different. I'd find it ok, since its his own land, he has the right to do that.
[16:49] Lazarus Bogan: the land owner can have it so you can't put stuff on there land
[16:49] Kitten Lulu: I can avoid his land, if I don't want the signs.
[16:49] You: Does it still count as spam if it's unsolicited, even on his land?
[16:49] Kitten Lulu: now, let's hope Anshe doesn't get the idea
[16:49] Maus Ennui: Kitten - but what if he gets 100 different littl epieces of land in the middle of roads?
[16:49] Lazarus Bogan: that has happened to me plenty of times it just puts it in your lost and found
[16:49] Kitten Lulu: howver I'd still prefer IMs
[16:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hard to say, Selaras. In some countries, for instance, you can "spam" people in your own land,
[16:49] Kitten Lulu: notecards only if I'd get only once
[16:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: in others you can't.
[16:50] Kitten Lulu: like when you enter rp sims, you get a notecard that explains the rules
[16:50] Nolligan Nino: good point
[16:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the answer in each case is different.
[16:50] Kitten Lulu: but you dont' get a notecard each time you pass a doorway
[16:50] Yuna Undertone: weeee
[16:50] Yogeswari Padar: please. please stop that
[16:50] Kitten Lulu: Youna, can you stip that?
[16:50] Kitten Lulu: stop
[16:50] Yuna Undertone: stop what
[16:51] Yuna Undertone: !!!!!
[16:51] Kitten Lulu: that gesture
[16:51] Yuna Undertone: i did
[16:51] Kitten Lulu: thank you
[16:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[16:51] Yuna Undertone: why did i have to
[16:51] Yogeswari Padar: thank you
[16:51] Kitten Lulu: it's annoying
[16:51] Yuna Undertone: yeah well
[16:51] Yuna Undertone: your ugly
[16:51] Kitten Lulu: you are not forced to look at me
[16:51] Friendly Story: oh dear
[16:51] Yuna Undertone: so stfu
[16:51] You: Yuna, please leave (: Thanks for visiting!
[16:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[16:51] Kitten Lulu: I'd prefer not have to mute you, that's why I ask before I do it
[16:52] Neal Stewart: Bye Yuna
[16:52] Avatar ejected.
[16:52] Nolligan Nino: lets get back to the topic
[16:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed,
[16:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we lost the thread, lol
[16:52] Neal Stewart: You were saying something about your milkshakes shaking better than mine, I believe Gwyn?
[16:52] Friendly Story: lol
[16:52] Kitten Lulu: I'd sum up my ideas these ways. It would be ethical if Quincy owned the land and if each avatar would only get the notecard once
[16:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: pfft Neal :D
[16:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[16:53] You: So he has a right to send everyone on his land a message ONCE, but not to harass them repeatedly with the same message.
[16:53] Yogeswari Padar: good night selaras, thank you!
[16:53] Kitten Lulu: yep
[16:53] Kitten Lulu: that's my idea
[16:53] You: take care Yoge (: have fun with Kurt!
[16:53] Rudy Ruml: Hi folks. It seem to ome tht this meeting needs a focus, like a specific recommendation.
[16:53] Kitten Lulu: Bye Yoge
[16:53] Nolligan Nino: if the notecard giver only did it once maybe but scripts aren't always that accurate
[16:54] Kitten Lulu: well, I can live with once per week
[16:54] You: Personally, I don't want the same notecard every week... I only need to see it once.
[16:54] Kitten Lulu: ya
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm,
[16:55] You: Is there an ethical difference between unsolicited sales pitches in different forms, like chat/IM/notecard/texture/object?
[16:55] Maus Ennui: I probably don't need to see it at all.
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it would mean some programming then!
[16:55] Neal Stewart: When we say what we think is ethical regarding notecard-givers, what ethical basis are we making that decision from, or are we just saying, "This is what I would prefer"?
[16:55] Maus Ennui: Sel - I find textured prims to always be acceptable.
[16:55] Kitten Lulu: I think it's my right to not receive intrusive commercial messages
[16:55] You: Good question, Neal... and is any alternative then implied to be unethical?
[16:55] Rudy Ruml: What about empowering each individual to limit by "law" the number of notecards they get.
[16:55] Maus Ennui: Sel - it does not impede my game play or slow me down.
[16:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I like that idea, Rudy.
[16:56] Friendly Story: I like that idea rudy
[16:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Defining different rules,
[16:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and making sure everyone knows that in advance.
[16:56] Rudy Ruml: Yes, keep it all that the individual level.
[16:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Warning: Spam Zone. You might get notecards advertising products here. If you don't like the rules of our community here, you're welcome to leave"
[16:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
[16:56] Neal Stewart: Hey, this is ethics! We're not looking for practical solutions! :P
[16:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw, Sheesh, Neal :D
[16:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tsk tsk.
[16:57] You: heh, okay... back to impractical ethics!
[16:57] Rudy Ruml: There is no difference in this setting.
[16:57] Neal Stewart: Heh heh
[16:57] You: Why is the alternative unethical at all? Or is it?
[16:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me suggest a possible answer to that, Selaras...
[16:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... by getting "spammed", even if 'gently',
[16:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: you're taking a bit of your time
[16:58] Rudy Ruml: The question of ethics is that of what is right and wrong. Here, with such diverse people from many countries, it sould be a matter of what a person wants so long as that does not interfer with what someone else wants.
[16:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to sort these things out.
[16:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, if you're *not* interested in getting ads,
[16:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorting them out (somehow) takes time.
[16:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The ethical aspect here is: "do i have the right to waste other people's time?"
[16:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would answer "no" to that. Their time is as important than mine.
[16:59] Nolligan Nino: good point
[16:59] Kitten Lulu: Yes.
[17:00] You: One question is... How do we know when the time is being "wasted"? How do we know whether the communication will be appreciated or not?
[17:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Whereas on a opt-in system, you're basically saying that you're willing to spend your time to read at adverts, that might somehow benefit you.
[17:00] Rudy Ruml: No, Gwy, the questions is whether cince people can leave, do they have a right to imposte their values o the others.
[17:00] Maus Ennui: Sel - groups allow us to know whem things are appreciated, and subscriptions
[17:00] You: Is there a community default, so that we assume everyone is interested until stated otherwise? Or vice versa?
[17:00] Friendly Story: umm find a place to sit sean
[17:00] Vektor Linden: Hi all! During the update on the main grid on Wednesday, August 9, there will be a preview pile-on test at 9:00 a.m. PST. This test will be on the 1.12 preview grid (Aditi), where the new Groups code is being tested.
[17:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh... one should always assume that other people's time is "wasted" if they don't explicitly give you permission to use it.
[17:00] Nolligan Nino: you have to assume that it will wate some avis time but interest others
[17:00] Vektor Linden: See this forum post for more information: http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=128188
[17:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (grrr Vektor!)
[17:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[17:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: See!
[17:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even the Lindens waste our time ;)
[17:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[17:01] Nolligan Nino: just been spammed by the lindens
[17:01] Neal Stewart: :)
[17:01] Friendly Story: LOL
[17:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed nooligan :D
[17:01] You: heh
[17:01] Friendly Story: not sure I understood what they just said though
[17:01] Nolligan Nino: impeccable timing on their part
[17:01] Friendly Story: lol
[17:01] Neal Stewart: It was a useful message though :)
[17:01] Kitten Lulu: I'd take the EU-stance and prefer to assume all time is wasted unless stated otherwise (i.e. opt-in over opt-out).
[17:01] You: Is there an ethical difference between marketing something for profit and not for profit?
[17:01] Rudy Ruml: We all are in charge of our lives here. If our time is wasted, that is bacasue of choice we make.
[17:01] Nolligan Nino: even if you don't care about it?
[17:02] Maus Ennui: Sel - no.
[17:02] Neal Stewart: Good question, Selaras.
[17:02] Kitten Lulu: No.
[17:02] Neal Stewart: What about people marketing themselves, socially? :)
[17:02] Nolligan Nino: yes and no
[17:02] Neal Stewart: "Check out this rack" :P
[17:02] Rudy Ruml: Why would that be wrong.?
[17:02] Maus Ennui: Neal - that is an accepted practice, right? That's what we're here for.
[17:02] Maus Ennui: ;]
[17:03] Maus Ennui: (jk)
[17:03] Friendly Story: lol
[17:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe. Neal, I agree that there is a limit somewhere.
[17:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Imagine the simpest advertising stunt in SL — titles!
[17:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or T--shirts, although titles work better
[17:03] Rudy Ruml: Now, I intend to omarket myself, that is to sell my lectures to interested groups. Is tht wrong?
[17:03] You: I find that question interesting... the issue of exploitation isn't there, since the marketer isn't trying to gain from it, but rather is trying to tout a good cause.
[17:04] Maus Ennui: I remove group titles, and yet I am wearing a shirt promoting my RL business.
[17:04] Neal Stewart: That introduces religion, etc.
[17:04] Neal Stewart: The good cause.
[17:04] Neal Stewart: Marketing christianity, etc.
[17:04] Nolligan Nino: depends on the cause - one person's good cause maybe an evil one to someone else
[17:04] You: It might still be a waste of time -- but they're not trying to profit.
[17:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitly so, Nooligan.
[17:04] Kitten Lulu: that doesn't change the cost of my time
[17:04] Maus Ennui: Sel - that's debatable.
[17:04] Maus Ennui: HAHAHA
[17:04] You: Ethically, I'm not sure it's much different than "wasting" someone's time trying to befriend them.
[17:04] Sean Avis: Wait...profit is not a dirty word
[17:05] You: As long as you stop when asked.
[17:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see your point, Selaras, but I'm rather an "absolutist" in this case ;) I think that you can have always non-intrusive methods,
[17:05] Neal Stewart: I think you might be right, Selaras.
[17:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: as an alternative to define what are "good causes".
[17:05] You: "good cause" was a messy phrase... I think "non-profit" is a more accurate term.
[17:05] Friendly Story: politically correct at least
[17:05] Maus Ennui: so there are two commodities in SL in regards to marketing --- attention and money
[17:06] Friendly Story: smiles
[17:06] Neal Stewart: Heh heh. Can I join your group, Gwyn? :)
[17:06] Kitten Lulu: commodities?
[17:06] Kitten Lulu: oh ok
[17:06] Maus Ennui: things of value to marketers (non and for-profit)
[17:07] Kitten Lulu: k, I only met the term in another context
[17:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Neal :D
[17:08] Neal Stewart: We've talked about it being unethical if the person is trying to sell you something that wastes your time. But what if you're 50% sure you want the product and 50% unsure? Does that mean you can't take an ethical position on the solicitation?
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hah Neal.
[17:08] Maus Ennui: No.
[17:08] Kitten Lulu: it doesn't really matter. The person selling the stuff is the one who has to make the ethical decision upfront
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, I'm not against marketing, lol
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I subscribe to Kitten's views.
[17:08] Nolligan Nino: now thats where we get the subtle distinction between marketing and sales
[17:09] Maus Ennui: It's not unlike when I hang up on a solicitor at home, even if I intented to call up the next day and get the product.
[17:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Marketing is the art of pushing you to buy things, without the "push". ;)
[17:09] Rudy Ruml: I don't see that marketing oro sales are ipso factor unethical.
[17:09] Kitten Lulu: -nods-
[17:09] Neal Stewart: Ooh, Vonnegut has started.
[17:10] Rudy Ruml: If one feels they are a waste of time, then reorder you lifie to avoide them.
[17:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, do you have a ticket, Neal? :)
[17:10] Nolligan Nino: marketing could be putting info in your profile, 'sales' is more 1:1
[17:10] Neal Stewart: No, missed out cos of my time-zone. You? (Sorry for off-topic)
[17:10] You: I would rather see the responsibility for not wasting people's time lie on the person who is doing the wasting.
[17:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If I did, do you think I would be here, neal? ;)
[17:10] Kitten Lulu: I find it acceptable in areas where a transaction is going on, to go back to Quincy's example. I'd find ethical if I get IMs or one notecard on his land. In such a situation, I am trading access to his land for the attention required to read the notecard
[17:10] Neal Stewart: Ha!
[17:11] You: Are you guys MARKETING THE VONNEGUT DISCUSSION DURING MY ETHICS???
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kitten, i totally agree.
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and LOL Selaras,
[17:11] You: ;)
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: too late for that actually :)
[17:11] Neal Stewart: Haha
[17:11] Neal Stewart: It's for a good-cause? :P
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, for the ones attending ;)
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway...
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kitten, I totally agree.
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: When I turn on the TV, I expect to get ads
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or when I open a magazine.
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or the radio,
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or enter a shop.
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But when I'm at home,
[17:12] Rudy Ruml: Yes, and you can turn the TV off or lose the magazuine
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: i don't expect people entering my door :)
[17:12] Neal Stewart: But if it's his land, can you say only 1 notecard is acceptable? Maybe he thinks access to his land is worth more than 1?
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Rudy.
[17:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neal, I would say — if it's his land, and his land only,
[17:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: he should be able to do whatever he wishes, as long as he respects his neighbours.
[17:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The "rotating Bush sign" comes to mind, though.
[17:13] Rudy Ruml: Agreed.
[17:13] Neal Stewart: I agree.
[17:13] Kitten Lulu: I am not sure about the ethical point of view, but I am sure I'd avoid his land if he's sending me notecard every time I make a step.
[17:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... where the "respect your neighbours" was totally missing.
[17:13] Maus Ennui think about the giant penis club
[17:13] Neal Stewart: But the neighbours part is tricky :)
[17:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Kitten. But you'd have an opt-out choice.
[17:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So very true, Neal.
[17:14] Rudy Ruml: Great. I'm glas to see the this discussion comes down to the freedom of othe individual.
[17:14] Nolligan Nino: if the 'notecard giver' caused lag that would be unethical
[17:14] Kitten Lulu grins. "Once, I had a big snowman with a strapon near my shop. I am guilty I fear."
[17:15] You: The neighbours part is hard to navigate... What if you and your neighbour wants completely different things?
[17:15] Maus Ennui: Kitten - you were in a mature area, that would be acceptable use of your property.
[17:15] Kitten Lulu: I was in a mature area and I was actually selling that strapon and it was almost xmas
[17:15] Maus Ennui: Sel - in SL you can build walls, and they cost absolutely nothing.
[17:15] Kitten Lulu: it was just a bit tasteless
[17:15] Kitten Lulu blushes
[17:15] Nolligan Nino: yes then you get land prices depreciating that would be the equivalent of 'housing blight'
[17:15] Rudy Ruml: If neighbors havae a problem, they should discuss it, negotite, come to an agreement, ,and if they can't that is what courts are for.
[17:16] Kitten Lulu: we lack courts
[17:16] Nolligan Nino: but if effects your traffic and sales what then?
[17:16] Rudy Ruml: Organize them!
[17:16] Maus Ennui: Actually, I prefer a tyranny in this particular case.
[17:16] Kitten Lulu: but I heard about neighbours engaging in I-am-going-to-build-the-tallest-tower wars
[17:16] Nolligan Nino: here in this case we live in a quasi-feudal society - we have to petition the lindens
[17:17] Kitten Lulu: they had a truce when they almost ran out of prims :P
[17:17] Kitten Lulu: ya
[17:17] You: This may be getting too practical for Neal, but a lot of these issues could simply be solved with tech solutions. Like being able to Mute/Make Invisible Objects that you don't want to see, textures you find offensive/unattractive, etc, etc.
[17:17] Maus Ennui: Kitten - what's wrong with towers? heh. friendly competition between neighbors. ;]
[17:17] Rudy Ruml: You live in an anarchy, studded with organized communitieis, ovoer all of which there is a dicatorship
[17:17] Neal Stewart: Heh heh
[17:18] Kitten Lulu: :-)
[17:18] Maus Ennui: Sel - agreed. However, my time is valuable. I do not want to spend my entire SL experience sifting through spam. Think of MSN and AOL spammers. You can mute them, but they keep coming at you.
[17:19] Nolligan Nino: good point
[17:19] Neal Stewart: But there are still technological solutions available.
[17:19] Maus Ennui: Sel - filters would be another matter.
[17:19] You: I'd like to thank you guys for coming and talking ethics today... The theme was week was inspired by Gxer's post in the forums
[17:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you for hosting :)
[17:19] You: so if you'd like to weigh in by posting something in the thread, please do! He couldn't make it to discussion, unfortunately :\
[17:19] Maus Ennui would support the use of shout/IM filters from unsolicited sources irregardless of ethics
[17:19] Neal Stewart: Thank you Selaras.
[17:19] You: http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=123013 is the URL for that thread, by the way
[17:20] Rudy Ruml: CAn we have a forum on the nature of ethics in SL?
[17:20] Nolligan Nino: you mean an equivalent to 'adblock' in firefox?
[17:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: More spam! LOL
[17:20] Kitten Lulu: that rocks
[17:20] You: Sure Rudy, there is an Ethics forum at http://forums.secondlife.com/forumdisplay.php?f=309
[17:20] Kitten Lulu: SLblock
[17:20] Kitten Lulu: we need it
[17:20] You: And we have discussed that topic a few times at Talking Ethics events (:
[17:21] Kitten Lulu: well, bye everyone
[17:21] Kitten Lulu: It was interesting
[17:21] You: Take care (: