RL and SL emotions---do they connect?

Following up on the ethics discussion last Sunday on the topic of relationships in RL and SL. The discussion focused on the ethics of a disconnect between RL fidelity and SL fidelity.
My contention was that cheating is cheating, and avatars are people with real feelings and emotions, but some members argued for it being OK to do ANYTHING in SL because it is a game.
I do a mental health podcast, and on fridays I talk about SL. If anyone is willing to be quoted (by SL name of course) could they weigh in here, because this is the dilemma that I am obsessed with.
I, myself, can't see how you could have one partner in RL and another in SL without calling it infidelity.
Thanks for reading this, and if you are interested in the podcast: http://www.podcasternews.com/programs/10/mental-health-missives/

I find the notion of SL being simply a game short-sighted and incorrect. It is communication and interaction between two or more human beings. Because of this, the emotions are very real and often very intense.

Regarding SL/RL relationships, I think that very much depends on the RL couple. An SL relationship cannot be at the same level of a RL relationship. Some couples realize this and so do not feel threatened by online relationships. Others view any show of online affection as infidelity.

A pattern I often notice is among women who married in their teens. Around the age of 30, some start questioning their marriage; finding more and more flaws in their husband. They will often engage in an online relationship as a way of compensating for what they feel is missing in their RL. Usually this will run its course, and when it ends, they will have gained a new appriciation of their husband.

I think the important thing to remember is that there are no absolutes. Online relationships can enhance a RL relationship or they can destroy one. And if the other party is single, it can be anything from a very beneficial experience to an emotionally damaging one. We are all different, and our experiences will all be different.

I hope this was helpful

Hey, thanks for responding CobaltBlue. I am usually in agreement with you in the ethics discussions at the hard-to-enter, but fun to be in, Villa Bilbao, but I have had an experience that makes me see some things differently.
I work with a lot of women patients who have been left by their spouses because they ran off to meet the person behind the chat room romance. I have yet to see this with Second Life, but I think that is because in relative terms it is still new. But, what's to stop that from happening, too.
So many people have a fantasy life which they want to make into reality. I have a feeling that NOBODY is a pleasant looking as they are in RL as their avatars are in SL>
I am curious to see what will happen--will disillusionment set in? We'll just have to wait, but I am sure it will happen.

I think the difference in our experiences is mostly due to the fact that my experiences come from conversations with women who've had (or who have considered having) online relationships, where your are based on women whose husbands have had the relationships.

To a large degree, men and women probably enter into online relationships for different reasons, and they probably also react differently to learning a spouse is involved with someone online.

Best example I can give of that is of a woman I know who was having marital problems. She stayed offline several months to avoid getting into an online relationship. She also told me that if she ever caught her husband even cybering someone, she'd be in the lawyer's office the next morning filing for divorce.

As far as meeting people go, I think if one goes into it knowing the person will never match the av, things will be fine.

In RL what most men who are unfaithful engage in is Physical Infidelity... they have a sexual relationship with some other woman, they may not "love" that other woman and may never love her. The biggest danger to their primary relationship is that they get infected with some disease.

In SL, it ends up being different, since you can't really engage in physical activity, the relationship ends up being more emotional... and can definitely become Emotional Infidelity. This can be far more dangerous to their RL relationship, as they may end up pulling away from the real relationship and become more involved in the fantasy emotional relationship. And more likely then not, what they are chasing after and falling for is a complete and utter lie. After all, it's easy to say and do things when all you have to do is type it or point & click at something.

If you are keeping your SL "relationships" to simple pose-ball interactions with random people, then that is no more cheating then looking at some random pictures and making yourself happy is cheating (many spouses complain about such things for some reason).

I have been in both real life and virtual relationships and actually just recently went through a breakup in Second Life and I can tell you for a fact that if you treat it as real a Second Life relationship can definitely carry real emotion between both people and it really does hurt when that relationship ends.

Try telling someone "It's ok, it was only a random stranger".

I know my RL partner would mind.

Quote:
If you are in an exclusive relationship in RL, it is unethical to cheat period. The fact that you are doing so in a virtual world is not justification. Cheating is cheating. You are having a romantic relationship beind the back of your SO. Somebody who is truly faithful and loves their SO would not be entertaining cheating on SL.

Very interesting discussion.


I get into arguements all the time with a few people since they believe SL is NOT RL so its okay to do whatever (i can get actual quotes from them and post them here,with no names of course, so we could discuss them.)

The main reason I am posting here is because you mentioned there was a discussion on this last Sunday? Is there anyway I could get a copy of it?


Thanks
Axiom Krugman


Oh and if there is a way I could get an invite to this group...that would make me happy.

On the original question, I think RL and SL emotions do connect. If our avs feel an emotion, it must be something our RL counterparts feel as well (outside of complete roleplay).

The cheating question hinges entirely on how those two people have expressed their commitment. For example, if "cheating" necessarily includes physical disloyalty, then SL-only actions aren't cheating. If cheating includes any emotional intimacy, then of course it's possible to cheat in the medium of SL, as much as it is through email, letters, phone calls, and face to face interactions.

I think the difficulty arises when a couple addresses only the question of physical fidelity, only to realize later that there was something else huge at stake. For relationships where the definition of infidelity is not made explicit, perhaps a good rule of thumb is to ask yourself if you're doing something that you'd want to hide from your partner. If it's something you'd want to hide, chances are it's probably something you shouldn't be doing.


Axiom, I'll send you a group invite when I get in-world. And I'll add a note to the Sticky Thread about how to join the Ethics Group also for general information.

Hello all, since SL is down at the momemt, I'd like to speak on two issues

I've read in this thread.


While I haven't attended any of the online discussions since the Second
Life birthday event I have been following the group's actions and
comments via the forum. I've found the posts very interesting.
Eventually I'll make time to attend one of the online gatherings

The first thought I'd like to pass on is in respect to whether SL is
a game or not. I've heard this question many times and my thought has
always been it depends on how you approach SL. I've run into folks
who definitely treat SL as a game, a roll playing game of very high
quality. I think one only has to interact with what I'll call the
Gorean's for a while to see an example of this. Or the pimps or drug
dealers I've run into. They certainly seem to be playing a game to me.

On the other hand there are many folks like myself that treat SL as
an extension of real life. While I'm in SL to have fun and create mostly,
I interact with the people I've met and the folks I hang out with just
as I would in real life. This makes SL much more than a game to me.

I've found that it's rather hard to explain SL to my RL friends and
colleagues without using the term game. There's simply no real world
analogy to base it on that they can relate to, unless they've read
Snow Crash at some time. The capabilities of SL are so different than
anything else.

I've recently taken to showing my friends what SL is
like by sitting them down in front of my computer and letting them
see how I interact with others in SL and create and explore. Then
it usually just blows them away. To some the possibilities of role
playing are what most intrigues them and others it's the social
aspects and creative possibilities that most intrigue them.

Thus from my experiences, whether Sl is a game or not really depends
on what it is you are using SL for and how you interact in it.

This leads to the original thread as to whether SL and RL emotions
connect or not. It seems to me if you are among the roll play group
then perhaps not. If you are among the other group (and I know
I'm probably really simplifying the number of groups here) then
I'd have to say RL emotions definitely connect with SL.

If you form a personal relationship with some one in SL of some
type and that relationship goes south, it's got to be just like RL
in that it becomes uncomfortable to be around that person in SL. Just
as it is in RL, especially when you share the same circle of friends
in RL. I imagine most of us have been in that type of situation
at some point in the past. I can't speak to any personal experience
in SL yet like that but I imagine it's just as uncomfortable.

So whether it's an argument gone south between SL friends or
making out with an SL avatar and hiding it from you real life
partner it's just as emotionally real as any other interaction
outside of SL. Someone said that if you are hiding your relationships
in SL from your partner then there must be something wrong with
those actions. I'd agree with that and as someone else said
while some people aren't threatened by this type of thing,
if you are hiding it then it must bother your partner and therefore
there's something wrong with it.

Good or healthy relationships are supposed to be about sharing
and honesty, if that's not there then there's a problem no
matter what one might be telling themselves, as in it's
only a game, it's not real, etc.

Lord I'm glad I didn't have to get all that out in chat! lol

Thanks for all the thought provoking subjects so far folks.

I have read all of the comments here with pleasure, and I have to say that people really do have great thoughts and ideas, but for me it gets distilled down to one single essence:

Say what you will about pose balls and lack of real touching and only chatting, etc., There is always a real human being behind all of the avatars so that makes it not a game, and not something that can be shrugged off as not real.
I am approached often in SL by men, and that is why I made sure to have my RL boyfriend be my SL partner. I am NOT here to meet another guy; I am happy.
If I started spending all of my time in SL with another guy, and all we did was talk and share all the time, it would be infidelity. I am not saying that one person has to be everything for somebody, but we all know when the tug goes in another direction.
So, try to rationaliza all you can. Real people have real feelings.
Love this board, because I can type slower than during the in-world meetings.

I agree with you that feelings are very real whether RL or SL.

I disagree with your blanket statement "If I started spending all of my time in SL with another guy, and all we did was talk and share all the time, it would be infidelity."

Why would spending time on a platonic friendship with a guy be any different than spending time on a one with a woman? Platonic is platonic regardless of gender. Yes, if you were spending too much time with your SL friends, ignoring your RL partner, that would be highly inconsiderate and selfish of you. But infidelity? I don't see it.

I think the attachment that people form to their avi varies greatly from person to person. For some it is not more than an elaborate chat-client - mind you i managed to fall in love with someone by posts on a messageboard and YIM-conversation - or a game. Sure you meet real people here, and you can even cyber. But since you never meet them in life -or just because you are aware that the avatar is not the real person- there is a degree of irreality to it.

Others are more involved, and a few seem to actually live in SL, and for those emotional abuse is probably as hurtful as it would be in RL.

From an ethical point of view,and to discuss the emotional impact on the person behind the avi as well as to persons related to them, it would be important whether you can make the actual distinction. Since this is normally not possible, except you are a mindreader, i would take the safe path and treat an avi with the same respect i would pay to a live person, unless having sufficient proof that the person is indeed a player.

Sounds like a good rule of thumb! It wouldn't hurt to give the people around us more basic human respect, and it could very well avoid unnecessary harm. I agree, it would be ideal to hold ourselves to the highest possible ethical standard and give the utmost consideration and respect to others. Unfortunately, this seems easier said than done, and to get back a bit to the original question... Is it too much to expect, when so many see Second Life as a playground to do everything that wouldn't be possible in first life? Do so many of those repressed real world impulses involve a violation of others?

This thread seems to be about 2 or 3 months old but here goes anyway... First of all, I define SL as virtual reality.. the matrix.. life in the matrix as I prefer to call it. Its everything, a game, entertainment, a stage, a playground, a business, an educational institution, a canvas for digital artistic expression, an escape, a place to meet, virtual reality .. REALITY and yes emotions are real at times depending upon the people or situations involved.

As far as cheating or not cheating, etc.. I try not to judge. Ultimately we are nothing more than energy with a conscience in my personal opinion. Here we are ... energy connecting with others on a massive level. Certainly there is a feed/need here.. don't you think?

Seriously speaking, the heart is capable to love more than one. People often find themselves in other relationships whether online or not to compensate for something lacking in the main relationship or life in general. However, that’s not always the case.. sometimes two minds simply connect and that’s that. Then again, why does anyone bond with another single or not? Its more about primal needs and something called "human nature".

As for me.. I'm single in what we all have come to refer to as "our real life". I've been involved in 2 SL relationships.. my current one and another which ended tragically like something out of Shakespeare. As our short lived romance was coming to an abrupt end, not thinking clearly, reacting merely from hurt/rage/disbelief like an injured animal licking its wounds, in a brief moment of insanity (or was it rationality), I went into his land group and returned all items on his sim. As the virtual land lie barren and desolate like a lifeless planet, very much the way I felt at the time.. I gained some gratification. It felt great to release it all.. the drama, mistrust, misunderstanding, betrayal, and so much more. It didn't last because like fast food, it leaves us hungry and wanting more... mea culpa. As he restored the sim to normal as if the hands of time were turned back (in less than 5 minutes flat), my heart crumbled.. no rollbacks for the fallen.

Upon reflection, lashing out is not an intelligent solution to one's pain or anger. However, real emotions are more valuable than pixels which can easily be replaced by a simple command. Where are the ethics? Sometimes a lesson is needed as in this case.

Back to the question at hand.. a resounding "yes" SL and RL emotions do connect. In my opinion, none of us are in the position to judge the personal romantic entanglements of another (within reason, of course). However, one should be careful and considerate when dealing with the emotions of others, especially in the matrix where emotions are often intensified by a 3D environment which leaves the mind mystified, feeling mesmerized by the surreality of it all. Even if one person may be playing a game, there is a strong possibility the other party involved is not. Its best to set the limitations from the onset in order to avoid unnecessary agony later on. Be accountable because in the end there may be a price to pay. That’s called ethics.

Here is a little something that I wrote immediately after the break up of my original partner in SL:

"The real danger of virtual reality is losing oneself in a love which doesn't really exist other than in one's own mind or falling so deep into the vortex of the matrix that even a digital lifeline can't save you.. I speak from personal experience.. I nearly lost ME in a holographic society comprised of souls who thrive on unrealities creating drama in order to feed their decaying morality. Though it was painful when I was cut free from the cancer which nearly destroyed me. I rejoice in my newfound anonymity!!! ..... Life in the Matrix."

Somebody mentioned that folks will often have a SL relationship because something is missing in their RL relationship. I have to agree. However let me add another layer. Sometimes what is missing in a relationship will not be gained or re-gained. The missing part in a relationship can occur for a variety of reasons. My point is that some may not want to lose the RL relationship even if something is missing.

What is missing could be found in a SL relationship. Is that ethically wrong? We can go back to the idea of hiding an SL relationship makes it cheating. In a strict interpretation that is true. I would further suggest parties in a relationship are naturally not totally open to their partner. That might be the ideal but probably people hold things back so as to retain their own identity. What do you think?

Are there not SL relationships that remain SL only, who never plan to meet in RL? I believe we search out fulfillment in a variety of ways and having a relationship in SL is one such way. SL adds diversity. We can stick with the strict definition of infidelity or understand human nature is to seek out new and varied experiences.

Just some thoughts....