No no, bad monkey, ALL WRONG

1. evidently you don't know what "alpha" means. This is a beta client, and its version number is quite completely incorrect.
2. it crashes randomly under xgl on several flavors of linux, on at least four different pieces of hardware.
3. debian, fedora core 4 and knoppix? Why you're not testing it with Ubuntu is entirely beyond me, since it's a more popular desktop linux (by far) than anything you say you're testing it on.
4. I'm glad you released your source code, because now I can see that you're doing a straight port of the windows version to linux. Straight porting is precisely why its becoming ridiculously expensive and time consuming to get this version out of whatever you mean by "alpha". It would probably take as long to do it the long way around, but by now you'd have a fully functional client that would be at least as stable as any other version.
5. There is absolutely no excuse to not have completed an automatic linux client upgrade tool by now, and don't hand me that crap about "well, many linuces put things in different places so its not so easy you know". That's all wrong. It is absolutely possible, and actually very easy to do---because I did it, and it took me, one person, just under seven hours to finish the 55 line ksh wrapper that does it. And I didn't have to look at your source at ALL to do it.

In conclusion, its not my job to fix the problems with the linux client for you. You're screwing with internal details that you inherited from open/active worlds in the first place (and were written the wrong way even back then) instead of simply replacing them completely with something that isn't brain-dead.

By now I understand that I have something of a small reputation for not being very nice. I understand that, and to be quite frank, it doesn't bother me at all. All of your clients suck because they're brimming with horrific mistakes, a lot of which were admittedly inherited--but that you still have not fixed. But the linux client sucks by far the most, and it really doesn't have to. In theory, it should be the second easiest to get to work, right behind OSX.

By the way, Second Life runs perfectly well under FreeBSD with just two tweaks that take all of ten seconds to do.

I have to grant you the correctness of the rest of your post, since I am not comparing line-by-line, but I would agree that a straight port of bad code from windows to linux is not that good. A straight port of GOOD code, I could understand

I also, like Tofu, think this is an alpha, since it is not full-featured, as you mentioned about automatic updates, for example. For me it's Alpha - often closed user group, not all features enabled; Beta - sometimes closed user group, all features enabled but not stable yet; Production - Normal bugs and Barin Dead but Stable Code.

You may be new to the linux client - Tofu has made AMAZING progress with the Linux client since he has taken it over; previously most of the development was "work arounds" developed by the Linux Client User Group.

I love your usage of "brain dead". Does that mean that "live brain" improvements will be coming from you soon? Even hints as to how to get rid of some of the "brain dead"ness? That would be something we would ALL appreciate!

Otherwise, you needn't be nice, it doesn't get the job done; but "Lead, Follow or get out of the way" also applies to you.. Or are you looking for the "not my job" award, and just being picky?

* Hugs *

Really, its worse than any of that. I'm just getting my last frustration out before Google releases their direct competitor in beta in a few months. It will almost instantaneously render Linden Labs entirely irrelevant, and Second Life will go the way of Active and Outerworlds before it--extinct.

The sad part is that if Linden Labs had listened to those of us who really, really know what we're doing in the field a long time ago when we were en masse giving very helpful suggestions about grid architecture and process/thread management, Second Life could have really given Google's product a run for its money.

But Linden did not listen, because Linden believed that he knew best---even in the face of failure after failure.

And yes, there will be a linux client for the google product.

Here's a big one: The current Linux NVIDIA drivers support everything natively that the windows and OSX versions do. There's no reason to shut anything off graphically in the linux client at all, unless the client detects (and this is a one-liner in C with the appropriate library) an ATI/AMD chipset. That driver is sadly lacking with Linux. It would be trivial to reset the clients graphics settings if an ATI/AMD card is detected, and then lock them.

Secondly, voice should have been outsourced. Skype was more than willing to do it this entire time, and it would have helped both companies tremendously---and I'm certain Skype would have quite enjoyed not having to lay down any more packet to frame hardware to do it. And Skype has a native Linux client.

Thirdly, one person on this project is not enough. Two are not enough. 20 would be far too many. The magic number is probably (as generally speaking) somewhere between 6 and 10 to dedicate to moving the Linux client out of alpha [sic] and into full production.

That's all the free advice anyone around here is getting from me, because they don't take it anyway. And I appear to be the last of the loudmouths from about three years ago trying desparately to get SOMETHING to happen over there at LL. And now finally, I'm done. Google may be evil, but their programming gibbons are damn brilliant.

Point taken.

When you start getting callouses on the forehead from bashing against a wall, it's time to pull back before brain damage ensues.

Sorry to see you go, and even more sorry that LL was not able to use your skills and advice.

I guess their decision to make the client Open Source MAY help here... but code integration also takes lots of highly skilled resources.

Their decision to make the client open source is *precisely* why their general programming incompetence is widely known. The rumbling through the "helper cat is helping" coder community, which is quite large, is that no one WANTS to help LL fix their broken client or server---because LL is notorious for never admitting mistakes and utterly ignoring advice from outsiders.

I mean come on...I'm retarded when it comes to ksh, and I wrote that automatic upgrade wrapper in less than a day. Someone who's good at shell scripting could probably do it in two hours. There is absolutely, positively, zero excuse.

I respect that you're aching for competition... but take note of this:

Google Earth, the 3D map tool from Google, also didn't come out with a Linux port. It too, like Second Life, needed a programmer known to port Windows and Mac code to Linux.

Yes, icculus did both Second Life and Google Earth's initial ports.

Now, Google is comming with their own 3D realm. Will it be as good as Second Life? Maybe. Will it do a three-platform release?

Will it?

Is Google following the same path Second Life did?

It doesn't matter either way. If I absolutely must run something on windows because I like it so much that I can't resist--then fine, I will. Second Life does not fit that bill for me. And Google Earth is substantially simpler than Second Life is (as is Picassa, etc), which makes STRAIGHT ports much more realistic.

Even if Google is following the same path that LL did, it doesn't matter. Google has far, far, far more than enough revenue to throw at a difficult problem to make it go away. They've shown this to be true many times over since their inception, from offhandedly adding a couple of hot-swappable datacenters to their collective to the rather malicious (but quite smart) habit of hiring the brainiest people around just to keep them out of their competition's companies, they are not afraid of making money or spending it.

And that's the biggest difference.

The Reason for the open source switch, in my opinion, is because Linux users are generally the kind of people willing to fix their own problems. I would love to get the source for Vivox voice client and incorporate it into the Linux viewer on my own.....if given the chance.
But you are right: one person working on the Linux viewer at the corporate level isn't enough. But it does show just how much respect that Linux users get: little. Linux runs the internet. We are the Morlocks of the internet realm. Without Linux, the internet would shut down. Even Micro-crap uses it in some products ironically.

Now time for the intellectual bomb:________________

I am not a linux guru but I am (company madate) useing suse 10 or as we callit SLED. I ahve a dell d620 with a NVDIA Quadro NVS110m card. I can get the client to launch but after about 30 to 90 seconds it crashes my Xwindows. I could be the flavor of GLX we are using or it could be somthing else. I would be glad for any help I could get. and would be glad to provide more info it I new what was needed.

This does not appear to have anything to do with the above discussion.

If you really DO want help, start a new thread.

Who cares how correct the version numbering is. It's alpha software by the very definition of not being software that is ready for general use. Alpha software is usually that which isn't suitable for general testing, let alone public use. The warnings are all there over the download page. Come back later if you want a true beta.


Sorry, but in Linux and open source worlds it is. That's the usual attitude anyway. Unless you've actually paid for support it's entirely up to you to fix it if no one else will.

It's why Linux is not ready for mainstream use on the desktop (much as I like it myself as I enjoy tweaking).


Too right. Everyone wants everything for nothing. In the Linux world, if you have a problem with it, fix it yourself and contribute rather than moaning.


Well to correct this a little, UNIX runs the Internet. It's UNIX derivatives that sit behind the big servers and routers of the net. Few of those are Linux platforms though they share the same ancestry. When it comes to big cororate backbones, money talks, not crusading opinions on open source "free" software.

Eeeps @ straight porting!
Ummm ... how much of a straight port? 90% 50% ...
[headhands] - Daren't look
I foolishly kinda thought that since the SL servers use Linux to run the sims, the client might actually be .. sounds foolish now .. no can't say it
And I have no experience of trying to get LL to adopt modified source. Are you sure it's that bad? They seem quite grateful for patches in the JIRA.
Just one thing about the Linux GoogleEarth & Picasa .. as I understood it they use wine as the method of getting it to run on Linux. Nothing wrong with that if it's done well, but it's not exactly a native program.
You think LL would be better off working out a wine optimised Linux client?

PS. A Debian addict. So your point 3 kinda washes over me. Also ... it doesn't crash my glx or anything! Sometimes[sic] the client crashes out, but basically it's safe for me.

I believe Google Earth for Linux turned out to be a native version rather than using WINE. Shame it doesn't work though.

But ... it does work .. totally fine here in Debian land. Picasa is a bit flakey when it hits a jpeg it doesn't quite grok. But Google Earth is fine.

"When it comes to big cororate backbones, money talks, not crusading opinions on open source "free" software."

I like "free software", as is freedom of speech, not free pizza. LOL

It is true, UNIX is the backbone of pretty much all programs/OS's that interact with each other. But I stand by my statement: Linux (or any derivative that it came from, or came from it) still runs the internet. Even Micro-soft borrowed it's TCP/IP tables from freeBSD.

I guess if it works.......

Off-topic: I just have to say that this, my favorite thread title, is completely wasted, buried as it is over here in the Linux Alpha forum. It's the best grid monkey bash I've ever seen.

I think of this phrase every time I read a dumb blog posting.

*now back to your regularly sponsored Linux musings*

i just reread that, learn how to use bb code its stupid simple, cause with all that bluring together it made you look like a rambling madman

http://forums.secondlife.com/misc.php?do=bbcode

GLX ? Are you sure you don't mean XGL ? If so, I'd suggest running the SL client in your window-manager WITHOUT XGL. Turn it off in your xorg.conf (comment lines initializing XGL with a '#', but leave stuff like 'glx' untouched or you will lack 3D support). Or in your case of company mandated OS-usage .. bribe your local root ..

Err.. btw .. one-liner to be back on topic about the monkey-business : " I suggest a new strategy R2 : Let the Wookie win ... "

"i just reread that, learn how to use bb code its stupid simple, cause with all that bluring together it made you look like a rambling madman"

Then mission accomplished. Life is too short for I too be worried about other "people's" preferences in how I make a post.

Sometimes, sounding like a raving madman is just what I was after. I think I afforded it.

And on I side note, I have voice on Linux Mint........ Because I FIXED IT!

Once I can figure out how to make it portable, I'll send it to Linden.

lol fair enough