Linux Client FAQ - Please contribute

I started to compile an FAQ about the linux client on Vinci's Linux Wiki. Please add more FAQs there or drop me a note about which issue you feel is also something important.

http://stux.wikiinfo.org/moin.py/FAQ

Wouldn't this be better done on the official wiki?

http://secondlife.com/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=HomePage

The problem is:

a) I suppose every content on SL wiki is owned by Linden Labs. And also see "Terms of Service" (
http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php) article 6.1:

YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT LINDEN HAS THE RIGHT, BUT NOT THE OBLIGATION, TO REMOVE ANY CONTENT (INCLUDING YOURS) IN WHOLE OR IN PART AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON, WITH OR WITHOUT NOTICE AND WITH NO LIABILITY OF ANY KIND.

b) I really looked into their wiki and did not find a suitable place.


BTW: In 4.1 there is a sentence "you may not modify, adapt, reverse engineer (except as otherwise permitted by applicable law), decompile or attempt to discover the source code of the Linden Software, or create any derivative works of the Linden Software or the Service, or otherwise use the Linden Software except as expressly provided in this Agreement."

So this would leave us more or less helpless. I would like LL to change this sentence if they really want to go in the open source direction. I think this is also nonsense because if taken seriously it wouldn't allow me to use tcpdump any more - and i think this is not LLs business because i use this to my own protection if i think a software is spying on me or is in some kind malicious. The same is true for discovering source code with some tools. I think lawyers made this general terms. I would like LL to make clear that they are happy about contributions and about people that discover bugs and help them to make a better software. I think LL did a step towards the Linux community. We like that. But we don't like to be easy criminalised. Many of us consider themselves as hackers in a positive sense. That means that we don't just use software - we are curious! LL should help us to help them. So LL wake up your lawyers and ask them again.

I think as long as the SecondLife client is alpha -- meaning: 'you users can try it, but don't even expect a word from us, nor help, you're on your own', a separate Wiki is totally okay.

Maybe later, once the SL client will be final (sometime less than a 100 years or so), things can go into the official Wiki.

I think we should keep it on our own Wiki for the time being. LL can edit there as well as all of us can, so there is no loss for them. Frankly, we don't really know what Linden is up to, so better be safe than sorry and keep things you create in your own paws. If the time really comes that Linden releases a fully functional Linux Port of Second Life we can think about integrating our collected knowledge into their system, but that's not to be decided yet.

Fair enough, it is their wiki. I am sure you would remove content you didn't like from yours just as quickly. The only difference here is Linden Labs spell it out for you.



Its a wiki, you make one! Perhaps under the Technical heading.



Tell you what. Go write your own virtual world then you get to decide how its licenced and what the terms and conditions of its use are going to be. Until that point, you're just going to have to live with Linden Labs, who are more than entitled to dictate all the terms.



Exactly. By using Linden Labs software YOU AGREE not to use tcpdump on it (or any other tools). If you don't like it then don't use their software.



You are free to use any software you like, except with the second life client, as the terms and conditions of use dont allow it.



You do not represent the Linux community in any way and your "give me the source code or I will use all the tools at my disposal to find out everything I can anyway" attitude is extremly damaging.

Allow me to spell it out for you. Linden Labs are god, they can do whatever they like, that includes setting lots of rules that you have to abide by if you want to play. EVEN IF YOU DONT LIKE THEM.

Its about respecting a companies choice of licence. If you don't agreee with the licence, don't use the software, thats the only right you have.

This is SL, and SL is Linden Labs.

I think it would be worse for SL, if they did NOT limit things like that.

And I am not keen on reverse engineering: they ARE on our side, and we on their's.

Or not?

*Imagines all the damage a properly modified open source SL client could do to the SL grid.*

No.. they wont be open sourcing the client code ever.. people would tear the grid apart seven ways to Sunday.

We don't have to go into a debate now if reverse-engeneering is legal or if we should bow to LL or not ... This thread is about the FAQ wiki, not about Linden Labs. So please keep on-topic, so we can further improve the FAQ.

No, your approach of "it's a company: they can and should do what they want" is much more damagin to our interests. The reason why I use Linux is because of freedom. People once wrote the GNU tools because they did want to depend on the stupid Unix companies. If Linden Lab does not want me to use the software or want other companies to take over they can continue to work as they like. I as a user always have my requirements that I spell out: What you are saying is that users should shut up and follow the lead of a softzware company, even if it is against there interest. I think every company has a responsibility to satisfy their users. I do have this approach with my customers. If you dont you should use Windows or Mac and just do what companies tell you todo.

Why do we have Linux right now? Not because RMS Linux and other followed the big knowledgeable companies like IBM, Microsoft Novell or SCO but ebcaue they thought they do know better. And we are in a constant struggle to preserver the rights of users, to make and keep things transparent.

It is so stupid if people like you just think the can dump the whole Linux philosophy and just go back to the "stupid user" view and think that this will allow Linux to exist. If such views spread it is clear that linux will die.

If LL does not wants users to use their software and thats what it looks because I think using iptables which most Linux users will use is also against the rules.

LL can choose to listen to users like me or they can look at users like you and continue to refrain users from contributing. Rigth now I think LL rather wants to go the open source way (which is against your will) but is too slow in doing so. I want them to be more transparent now and let go the fears. This is not only about Linux. This is about a fundamental change in development strategy.

People like you destroy the Linux community, because they always thinkt hat the Linux way is bad and in fact Linux should become Windows. I hope nobody will listen to you.


Vinci

Calm down you two. This is a FAQ thread, not a politics thread. Everyone else is getting annoyed at you two. Make a new one for LL's intentions and OSS aspriations, and move on.

(( And yes, I admin another forum, the Comic Genesis forums. *IF* I were this forum's mod, this would be a warning, with action taken the next time around. ))

I can accept this being offtopic but in general I think this is just arguing. if ppl have different positions this can also battled in a heated discussion (though not in this thread).

Vinci