Second Group Meeting Notes

From today's 1pm meeting:

PART ONE

Jeska Linden: Ok I think we're waiting on one more, but we can get started :)
Daniel Linden: This little group session involves two issues -- Groups and Covenants.
Daniel Linden: The two items are not, as it turns out, very directly related.
Daniel Linden: Still, we're here to discuss each of these topics....present our current direction, answer questions, and solicit your views.
Kamael Xevious: /nod
Daniel Linden: Can I ask how many here own or manage an Estate?
Dana Bergson: Hand ...
First Page: *raises hand*
Eloise Pasteur: not me
Hiro Queso holds hand up
Fidelio Matador: raises hands - the three sims of Ar, and speaking for The Wilderness and Anango's interests
Traxx Hathor: Been asked to; turned it down
Daniel Linden: 'Bout half? Good.
Turgar Nilsson semi raises as its something he is hoping to do
Daniel Linden: Let's start with Groups and the various improvemnts in the works.
Kamael Xevious: Long range plans include purchasing an estate.
Daniel Linden: Robin?
Robin Linden: We've got 2 projects going at the moment
Robin Linden: I've been working on taking a close look at the existing group tools and evaluating ways to make them more useful
Robin Linden: The second project has to do with the estates, which are as you know, managed differently from the mainland area
Robin Linden: The group tools changes will largely affect the mainland.
Robin Linden: There are 2 phases to the project
Robin Linden: First is fixing what's broken.
Robin Linden: so...
Robin Linden: First, looking at general characteristics (size and number allowed)
Robin Linden: Increasing the number allowed and providing for groups of 2
Robin Linden: Second, is communication
Robin Linden: Providing a group announcement function so people don't have to hack the vote tool
Dana Bergson: :)
Robin Linden: and also improving the way that group IM works, so it reaches people who are offline, and also offers better filtering
Robin Linden: Third is group managment
Hiro Queso: That would be great :D
Dana Bergson: :) :)
Robin Linden: This is the largest part of the project
Robin Linden: We're looking at how we can increase the number of member types within a group, and then also make the permissions system flexible enough that it can
Robin Linden: be set down to the individual permission and person
Traxx Hathor: excellent
Eloise Pasteur: Sounds good
Kamael Xevious sitll hasn't heard the three magic words "Group Inventory Drop"
Robin Linden: The last piece is still an open question. Right now for people to share land permissions they need to deed their land to a group
Kamael Xevious: But otherwise sounds good.
Robin Linden: I'd like to separate group functions from land ownership, so you could assign building perms, for example, to a group member without giving away your land
Robin Linden: So that's the meat of it
Robin Linden: Phase II then looks at now that we've fixed groups, what do we want to do next
Robin Linden: There's only dev resources for phase 1 right now
Robin Linden: Group inventory drop, if you mean pass an object to the group, is part of the communication plan
Eloise Pasteur: You said in phase 1 raise number of groups? Roughly how high are you thinking?
Kamael Xevious: That's what I mean and hallelujah!
Robin Linden: I'm not sure yet Eloise...it depends on what the devs tell me with respect to the database hit
Eloise Pasteur: OK thanks
Traxx Hathor: Robin, you mentioned assigning building perms without land perms. The entire issue of perms is crucial, and should be considered in an integrated manner.
Traxx Hathor: I'm in favor of Tiger's granulated system.
Hiro Queso: Yes I like a lot of |Tiger's ideas :)
Dana Bergson: Tiger and Pham had interesting suggestions on the subforum about permissions and "roles" for templating different sets of permissions. Will these, especially, roles be supported?
Eloise Pasteur: Yes, me too
Hiro Queso: But there is a lot there of course
Kamael Xevious nods.
Eloise Pasteur: At least something along those lines
Robin Linden: I've got somewhere around 30 different permissions outlined
Hiro Queso: :D
Traxx Hathor: The roles or multiple access lists are an essential part of the toolset
Robin Linden: They fall into categories such as land, object management, money management, access and so on
Fidelio Matador: It would be well to circulate those permission definitions with explanations of what exactly each is to mean
Eloise Pasteur: access?
Robin Linden: If we can design this the way I hope, you'll be able to assign each of the permissions to one or more members of the group
Traxx Hathor: We understand that you can't implement something that extensive right away, but it would be nice to see the approach get approval
Eloise Pasteur: You mean banning people from land?
Robin Linden: Access = banning
Traxx Hathor: access lists in general
Eloise Pasteur: OK
Traxx Hathor: for perms
Turgar Nilsson nods
Traxx Hathor: Tiger makes the point that perms on objects and land are interrelated
Fidelio Matador: I have an obeservation about access in general
Robin Linden: We'll make sure that we take all the resident feedback from the forum and from the feature voting tool into account
Dana Bergson: distribution of payments to groups will that be revamped, too? non-equal shares of the income?
Fidelio Matador: An LSL function to answer the question "is avatar xxx a member of group yyy" would greatly facilitate access control by user written security systems
Kamael Xevious: That would be nice, being about to assign shares of the income.
Eloise Pasteur: If you're overhauling that, can we have some things about banned people not being able to create on the land they're banned from too thought about please?
Turgar Nilsson: agreed
Robin Linden: Good question Dana. Let me see if we can do that
Dana Bergson: would be important for every BUSINESS group
Eloise Pasteur: I realise it's not directly groups, but if you're looking at land and access it fits in nicely
Fidelio Matador: seconds eloise's observation, and raises it to include editing of land
Robin Linden: Eloise, that falls into a separate area and I only have one developer!
Dana Bergson: ;)
Robin Linden: But we can certainly make a note of it
Hiro Queso third Eloises's point :D
Traxx Hathor: very important!
Robin Linden: OK sounds popular. I'll see if we can get that into the ongoing dev queue
Eloise Pasteur: ok ty!
Traxx Hathor: : )
Fidelio Matador: I would appreciate your adding the LSL group membership query to the list of possible enhancements, Robin
Hiro Queso: at the moment, there is only edit or no land edit. would be good to set perms to just certain individuals, or grp members
Traxx Hathor: look, an interloper!
Hiro Queso: on the actual plot
Fidelio Matador: it is *the* reason why current security systems are basically broken in places where much banning must be done
Robin Linden: That's the plan Hiro, if we decouple deeding land to group, but keep the idea of shared permissions within the group
First Page: since the two are going hand in hand in the future outlook of groups and estates i have a question
First Page: you have been speaking about the founder of the groups having the control ..however i have a group that the founder no longer is a member and it came 'with the estate' so to speak .
First Page: have you put thought into how you will allow that to pass over or will i need to make a 'new' group?
Robin Linden: We're thinking that the remaining officers could elect a new founder
First Page: very good ok
Dana Bergson: I have read the transcipt of yesterdays meeting...
Dana Bergson: What is the reason behind the strict separation of functionalities between mainland and estates? Most of what I have heard so far seems to be very sensible additions for both types of land if I want to share it.
Hiro Queso: the founder should be able to give founder level access to group members
Robin Linden: That will be possible
Hiro Queso: so thye founder can create co-founders, to create a group similar to the current ones
Traxx Hathor: Yes the mainland seems like a special case of Estate ownership
Robin Linden: You want to get Dana's question Daniel?
Hiro Queso: or if its to be passed to someone else
Daniel Linden: I don't believe there is a strict seperation -- most of what works on the mainland works on Estates.
Robin Linden: I don't think the founder could pass the group to someone else and leave, but yes s/he could certainly expand the permissions. That's a good point, and I'll see what we can put in.
Daniel Linden: That said, Estate and the mainland ARE different....
Dana Bergson: :)
Daniel Linden: ....and in many circumstances, require differing set of tools and options....
Daniel Linden: ....to work in an optimal manner.
Hiro Queso: Well if the current group set up can be created from the setting of certain permissions, that would be cool. Tho most are in favour of them being changed, am sure that there must be some who like the current set up
Eloise Pasteur: There are things the current group set-up works for I think
Traxx Hathor: Social groups
Fidelio Matador: Estate Ban is badly broken at present, are you aware of that Daniel?
Eloise Pasteur: But many more things that are squashed in because it's the only option
Turgar Nilsson: will there be any form of filtering do you think.......in a revised tool set...Im thinking in terms of view.
Robin Linden: Traxx, when we originally designed the group tools social groups were the only kind we thought we'd have
Daniel Linden: Broken or lacking, Fidelio?
Robin Linden: That's one of the big problems -- we didn't anticipate people would try to run businesses with these tools
Traxx Hathor: That's interesting, Robin. Now I can see large scale businesses right around the corner
Traxx Hathor: In the vision of separate grids
Fidelio Matador: Broken. If two islands of different ownership are attached, and a person is Estate Banned in one but not the other, he may port into the one where he is not banned and *walk* into the one where he is estate banned, with no problems at all
Traxx Hathor: And LL runs the main grid
Robin Linden: Agreed - hence the importance of doing this now
Dana Bergson: Will the voting system become more flexible too or no changes?
Robin Linden: What sort of changes would you be looking for Dana
Dana Bergson: i read some ideas on the forum
Dana Bergson: weighted votes for example
Dana Bergson: diff quorums
Robin Linden: I think we'll make sure we get communication and permissions right first.
Dana Bergson: kk
Robin Linden: Then if we have time we can look at voting
Hiro Queso: Fidelio, its also possible to port into an estate youre banned from even if there are no sims joined that you have access to. If they have home set, sometimes just a LM< they can get in
Traxx Hathor: Fidelius's point is important right now, and could become even more important if we consider a malefactor porting to a different grid
Traxx Hathor: In cases like theft of IP, grid owners might like to perma ban a malefactor
Traxx Hathor: and make arrangements with other grid owners to support that ban
Hiro Queso nods
Traxx Hathor: Enforcement is a hard problem in SL
Robin Linden: I have a question about that Traxx
Daniel Linden: There are certainly issues regarding linked Estates of differing ownship -- the tools were designed at an Estate Level....
Robin Linden: If there were a blacklist system like that, how do you think we would manage to avoid using it for griefing?
Daniel Linden: Some of the new Estate tools coming will help, though not solve those problems.
Traxx Hathor: Robin, you cannot
Hiro Queso: even with sims that are all on the same estate, the ban can be cirumvented if they have a home position set it seems
Traxx Hathor: It would be gamed by griefers
Dana Bergson: What if the lblacklistz were tied to the group not to the estate?
Daniel Linden: Hiro -- those are bugs and should be addressed.
Robin Linden: No I'm talking about the other way around
Hiro Queso: okies :)
Traxx Hathor: a whitelist is the other way around?
Robin Linden: Let's say someone decides that soandso avatar is a thief and issues a ban to the blacklist
Traxx Hathor: kk
Robin Linden: Then soandso avatar has to prove that she isn't a thief.
Robin Linden: Kind of hard to do
Traxx Hathor: yes
Robin Linden: And it would be possible to do that to someone you just didn't like
Fidelio Matador: If I "own" my islands and LL has foreseen the need to prevent unwanted people from coming there by providing two tools in SL and the facility for user written security systems, then those tools should all *work*, at least.
Eloise Pasteur: Although I'm not a huge user of ban lists, as the population grows is there any chance of increasing the number of slots in the ban and access lists from 50? Sorry for the digression.
Traxx Hathor: absolutely, Robin
Hiro Queso: I'm gonna sound a bit cold here, but surely that's up to the estate owner to decide
Turgar Nilsson: agreed Hiro
Traxx Hathor: agreed
Hiro Queso: just like a plot owner on the maingrid can ban
Robin Linden: So I think that a blacklist could be an intriguing way to manage griefers, but I also think it could be a tool for griefing in itself
Traxx Hathor: exactly
Fidelio Matador: Of course it is
Robin Linden: Yes Hiro, but I'm talking about a central shared blacklist, not just one estate
Traxx Hathor: but how about giving estate owners a toolset to build governance structures?
Hiro Queso: But why would you want to go to a sim owned by someone using it that way anyhoo?
Hiro Queso: ok gotcha
Fidelio Matador: Our police are reported as griefers frequently - by the griefers lol
First Page: but it the limit in griefers is to ones own group or land it might not be to big of a problem
Traxx Hathor: You could base a toolset like that on a granular system of perms and access lists
Fidelio Matador: Robin, if you are as LL satisfied that someone is a Greifer enouogh to be on a blacklist, why do you not simply burn their accounts?
Daniel Linden: OK -- let's run with that thread: Estate Governance!
Traxx Hathor: yes!
Robin Linden: We wouldn't put them on the list...residents would.
Daniel Linden: And this, as it happens, is where Covenants come in.
First Page: right
Robin Linden: It would be the residents who decide the interpretation of the community standards in that scenario
Fidelio Matador: Let me ask a question before we get into covenants
First Page: ok about the covenants : another question
Daniel Linden: One the most basic level, a Covenant is just a text field.
First Page: lol..
Fidelio Matador: Basically, if the access control tools all *work*, can not residents implement and enforce any covenants we like?
Traxx Hathor: yesterday's transcript sounds like Estate owners are getting a small text area somewhere in the UI to declare what their rules are.
Hiro Queso: Well I see there being a few lists, people joining together with others who's judgement they trust
Daniel Linden: It provides a way for Estates to describle themselve and define Local Standards....
Traxx Hathor: That doesn't solve the big problems
Daniel Linden: ....in regards to zoning , themeing, or behaviour.
Fidelio Matador: raises hand - not a small text field, but an URL
Daniel Linden: As an idea, however, it's a pretty big one.
First Page: seems to me..mainland controls are seperate from my understanding having read the notes from the previous meeting..mainland estate controls are desired
Eloise Pasteur: I'm a little confused by that... but surely an estate owner can enforce their standards except of behaviour already?
First Page: is there some form of estate controls that can eventually be added.. to the mainland owners.. giving land owner with 'more' land more control .. verses someone with at 512 lot more land more control so to speak.
Traxx Hathor: Eloise, just by the usual methods
Traxx Hathor: eviction
Eloise Pasteur: They can't sell parcels on the estate can they?
Daniel Linden: What it means, in the bigger picture, is more autonomy for Estate....a move in the direction of sefl-governance.
Dana Bergson: wil l this text be presented in a way that makes sure it is read, like an EULA?
Dana Bergson: or like small print
Turgar Nilsson: arent estates already effectively self governing?
Traxx Hathor: well there are few options for enforcement
Hiro Queso: What action would lead to this text box being brought up, and what happens after?
Fidelio Matador: smiles - we certainly are
Eloise Pasteur: There are steps like negotiation before eviction
Daniel Linden: The implementation of Estate Covenants is meant to move us in the direction of empowering Estate owners to be their own Governor Lindens....
Turgar Nilsson nods
Daniel Linden: ....creating parallel, independent vision of Second Life that live along side the one created by Linden Lab.
Dana Bergson: Wouldnt it make sense to have Covenants for any groups
Dana Bergson: optoinally
Eloise Pasteur: and how does having a text field saying "You should only build in a medieval Japanese style" style say, stop me building my Stargate complex if I want to?
Dana Bergson: not only estates?
Turgar Nilsson: ideal...that should pelase those crying out for government in SL WITHOUT riling those who DONT want such
Daniel Linden: Eloise, that's up to the Estate owner/managers.
Eloise Pasteur: And then getting into the negotiation and eviction cycle...
Fidelio Matador: Daniel, since Ar already has all this in place, I will be happy to identify the specific technical problems we have had in enforcing it.
Hiro Queso: Eloise, zoning can only ever be inforced by the estate owner really - info is what is most important
Daniel Linden: But we'll cede control of abuse resolution to the Estate Owners if they choose....
Jeska Linden: The idea being -that when you join the community, you also have to agree to their sets of standards.
Fidelio Matador: Woohoo
Eloise Pasteur: OK, that's new
Daniel Linden: ...and provide better tools to resolve issue on the Local Level.
Daniel Linden: And yes, you'll be able to actually sell parcel on an Estate.
Eloise Pasteur: That was the bit that was missing, i wasn't seeing what you were adding to the mix
Kamael Xevious: wow
Turgar Nilsson: in terms of estates...is there any possibility of payment of monthly tier being able to be split amongst accounts? Its a BIG commitment, yet it seems the only way to HAVE control over one's experience.
Traxx Hathor: Daniel would LL act as an intermediary in those sales?
Hiro Queso: how would that work Daniel, would it be in their name, similar to on the mainland?
Daniel Linden: We should give Estate owners, content creators....experience providers.....
Fidelio Matador: Daniel, will that include the power of eminent domain to recover property "owned" by a miscreant?
Daniel Linden: ....all the tools WE have.
Dana Bergson: woot
Eloise Pasteur: So local god mode?
Daniel Linden: Yes, it would be in their name.
Traxx Hathor: You'd licence software for auctions, for example?
First Page: in selling the parcels on estates would the parcel sold have estate control as the orginal owner of it?
Hiro Queso: and tier would be payable to estate owners?
Daniel Linden: The Estate Owner functions like Gov. Linden -- able to reclaim land, etc.
Robin Linden: I'm hoping to see users be able to post parcels to the auctions
Daniel Linden: We're not a billing providor, and do not plan at this point to provide billing services.
Robin Linden: but it won't be in this round.
Turgar Nilsson: so...in effect...that WOULD allow a sort of "multiple ownership" making it easier to pay for a sim
First Page: pay yes but what about the estate controls of it
Daniel Linden: Linden Lab will retaining a billing relationship with ONE person -- the Estate Owner. After that, it's up to you.
Dana Bergson: tier payments for sold land on an estate. who would get them
Hiro Queso: OK, I am excited by the idea, I just worry about abuse of this. Whats to stop someone setting up, selling land etc, then they default payments to you guys. what happens then?
Turgar Nilsson nods
Turgar Nilsson: it would be defaulted to the Owner
Traxx Hathor: good question
Traxx Hathor: He meant the guy in charge skips
Turgar Nilsson: who would still ultimately be responsible Im thinking?
First Page: ok.. then back to the 'selling of it' you really are not selling it
Hiro Queso: But we only need one person to do this, and then all such transactions will be black marked
Turgar Nilsson: oh i see
Daniel Linden: Ideally, I suppose, that defaulted Estate and it's customers could be sold to another operator.
Dana Bergson: Sorry to repeat but .... tier payments for sold land on an estate. who would get them
First Page: you are simply giving it a different name
Dana Bergson: ?
First Page: ....
Jeska Linden: I'm not sure what the question is -
Hiro Queso goes to order 50 estate sims
Hiro Queso: LOL
Dana Bergson: when land is sold on an estate
Dana Bergson: do i as the buyer of that estate
Dana Bergson: pay still tioer to lindens?
Dana Bergson: or do the new owners pay
Jeska Linden: The tier would be paid for by the estate owner to Linden Lab
Dana Bergson: ok ...
Traxx Hathor: so no change there
Turgar Nilsson: and collected from the residents
First Page: lol so im hearing that basically the estate owner would still be the only controlling power on the estate this cannot be split? thus not really allowing anyone to be a duel owner of a sim
Daniel Linden: No. If you purchase a Parcel on an Estate, you'll pay the Estate Owner or Operator.
First Page: rather be the controlling factor of on with the same and more controls we have?
Daniel Linden: The Estate Owner pays their Estate fees to Linden.
Fidelio Matador: Daniel, all that can be done with the existing tools
First Page: Daniel meaning estate owner keeps the only power
Hiro Queso: So it's the same as it is currently, tho we will be able to 'sell' the land.
Turgar Nilsson: so Daniel that is where covenants really DO come into play....if you own land....and pay tier to the operator, and THEY have an issue with you....there could be major problems?
Fidelio Matador: It is already possible for an estate owner to subdivide property and collect rent
First Page: thank you Turgar my next question *smiles*

PART TWO:


Traxx Hathor: Residents often express a preference to buy through LL. That could help sales of land on Estates. It's just something to keep in mind.
Dana Bergson: nods
Fidelio Matador: It is already possible to recover property from miscreants
Daniel Linden: Parcel owners on a Estate will have all the features and control enjoyed by parcel owners on the Mainland --without the current 'hacks'.
Fidelio Matador: What is lacking does not require a great deal of technology
Hiro Queso: Its not a big leap in tech, its more a leap in policy
First Page: but you can do that now with deeding to their group or am i missing something
Fidelio Matador: First and foremost it requires recognition of our sovereignty on our own land
Fidelio Matador: That is a matter only of your policy on abuse reporting and resolution
Daniel Linden: It's more complex than it sounds to implement -- but it's a big change in philosophy.
Dana Bergson: still it would be perfect if the land payments could go "through" lindens
Traxx Hathor: yes
Dana Bergson: much easier for the users
Traxx Hathor: agree
Dana Bergson: for a fee ?
Fidelio Matador: Otherwise, it is only a matter of fixing broken access control tools
Traxx Hathor: LL could be a service provider in this capacity
Daniel Linden: Dana, there may eventually be some sort of billing integration.
Dana Bergson: :)
Turgar Nilsson: thats good to hear
Dana Bergson: hear hear
Fidelio Matador: If you will stop listening to abuse reports from people on our land, we have almost all of what you are talking about.
Dana Bergson: THAT would be business
Daniel Linden: Intially, we'll ask you to handle billing as you see fit.
Fidelio Matador: I am renting land to people now
Fidelio Matador: I am collecting money from them now
Eloise Pasteur: I realise I'm in a minority here as a non-estate owner, but would it be possible for you to post to the forum for this group the current situation and what you're proposing Daniel
Daniel Linden: In effect, you be able to run your own version of Second Life.
Turgar Nilsson: excellent
Fidelio Matador: LL does not need to do any programming to allow that
Jeska Linden: We will be posting all of the notes from these small group meetings to the forums.
Hiro Queso: Can we have more spaces on the ban list also? On one of my estates, there is over 20 sims, and an endless supply of arseholes :D
Traxx Hathor: heh
Jeska Linden: There is also a forum set up for these discussions: /261/1.html
Eloise Pasteur: I had a brief moment when I thought I understood, but it's got cloudy again which might just be me being thick
Turgar Nilsson grins
Daniel Linden: Hiro -- the new Estate tools should make some improvments there.
Hiro Queso: coolio
Turgar Nilsson: would the tier costs of parcels sold also mirror the LL's?
Daniel Linden: And we're also planning to provide improved tools to assess discipline -- local level suspension, for instance.
Hiro Queso: Thats up to you Turgar
Daniel Linden: The parcel cost will be decided by the Estate Owner.
Eloise Pasteur: I've seen the forum Jeska, that's where I was hoping Daniel could post a "now" and "planned" list so I and others could read it clearly without dragging this discussion back
Turgar Nilsson: I see
First Page: ok so i understand the idea .. you are saying that we are going to have our own 'little' sl . . better controls are what you are offering to us estate owner
Daniel Linden: By moving these kinds of Estate land sales into the structure of Second Life....
First Page: not really a 'new' plan
Traxx Hathor: Eloise is right -- once all the group transcripts are posted that's going to be a lot of information to sift through....
Daniel Linden: ....we hope to bring it out of the 'grey market' and make it a central part of how SL operates.
First Page: an the use of groups to provide that is your means in which you are doing it though
First Page: for starters
Hiro Queso: Do you have any rough idea on a target date for these new things to be implemented?
Daniel Linden: Soon.
Fidelio Matador: Daniel
Dana Bergson: What is the rough timeline for the first improvs? Permissions and maybe new roles?
Hiro Queso: Both the estate plot sales, and group changes
Robin Linden: Group changes aren't due to be completed for a couple of months
Fidelio Matador: Is there any reason at all for delay in the policy change to allow us control of abuse resolution on our own land? We want that immediately, and I think I speak for all the Gorean sims in that regard.
Robin Linden: We need to finish getting feedback and complete the design, and then actually do all the coding
Turgar Nilsson: hear hear Fidelio
Hiro Queso: Fidelio - surely you can do that in addition to the LL AR system?
Daniel Linden: Fidelio....
Fidelio Matador: No coding needed on that, whatsoever
Robin Linden: Many of the estate tool changes will be done well bfore that
Dana Bergson: ooops
Daniel Linden: ....we need to make some changes to our Webtools....
First Page: I have noticed that Lindens are trying to allow that with the contacting of 'me' as thte estate owner when a report comes from my estate... to allow me to handle a greifer first
Daniel Linden: ....to give you access to Abuse Reports from your Estate.
Daniel Linden: So we can't do it 'now'.....but very soon.
Fidelio Matador: grins - well that does sound very usueful, Daniel
First Page: unless that is not ment to happen just was a 1 time situation.. lol
Eloise Pasteur: You said something about minor punishments from estate owners, what's a minor punishment?
Daniel Linden: I may have missed a question or two there -- can you repeat anything I've not answered?
Dana Bergson: Sorry to repeat but .... will Covenants be avail for any group or just in estates
Eloise Pasteur: And will you be raising the size of permitted ban lists, I think that's been missed a couple of times, and also access lists for those that use them.
Daniel Linden: Initially, Coventants are an Estate Feature.
Traxx Hathor: Only by giving TOS enforcement authority could one of the projected new grids be completely new. What happens if they abuse this power?
Daniel Linden: The Terms of Service is something everyone accessing Second Life agrees to follow....
Daniel Linden: ...Estate Owners included.
Daniel Linden: Covenants allow Estates to specify and enforce Lcoal Standards.....
Daniel Linden: ...not to supplant the ToS.
Robin Linden: The Terms of Service are the legal agreement we have with our customers regarding things like billing and account management
Fidelio Matador: My question that remains is will LL fix all broken aspects of the access control / ban tools, and will it consider adding a LSL function to ask if a given person is a member of a given group.
Robin Linden: Community Standards are what you agree to as a member of the community
Kamael Xevious: So, behavior not tolerated under the TOS won't be tolerated in an Estate either?
Traxx Hathor: You mentioned separate TOS-like rules for Estate owners of the future private grids in parallel; so those would be subject to the existing TOS and CS
Robin Linden: The covenant essentially allows the estate owner to set their own community standards and enforce them
Traxx Hathor: Just wanting to sort out the two statements
Kamael Xevious: So you can have "No Gays allowed" estates under this system?
Fidelio Matador: You can have no *humans* allowed estates, right now
Dana Bergson: against TOS
Hiro Queso: I am sure that any estate rules set by estate owners cannot break os
Hiro Queso: tos*
Fidelio Matador: We have a *humans only* estate and people whine about that
Hiro Queso: YOu have opened pandoras box lol
Daniel Linden: I'd like to see the spirit of the Second Life Community permiate any Estate Local Standards....
Kamael Xevious: I know, but it's an important issue.
Daniel Linden: ....but I'm sure there will be extreme cases.
Traxx Hathor: Well all we want is an assurance that the LL TOS and CS take precedence
Fidelio Matador: It is to us a very imporrtant one too
Daniel Linden: I'm sure those cases already exist.
Kamael Xevious: I don't have a problem with furry only estates, or Gor only or any other theme.
Fidelio Matador: We have a themed sim and things that do not exist in our theme are not welcome
Hiro Queso: Traxx - estate owners are bound by TOS also, I cant see problems
First Page: so Daniel you are saying that as the estate owner you can do a *no humans allow* estate?
Kamael Xevious: I do have a problem with intolerance.
Traxx Hathor: Yes I was only thinking of the new private grids, Hiro
Traxx Hathor: Since we're brainstorming about those here
Hiro Queso: But theyre still bound by LL TOS
Fidelio Matador: It is not an issue of intolerance on private land!!!!!!
Hiro Queso: at least in the form being discussed here
Fidelio Matador: Intolerance applies in *public*
Daniel Linden: Par to of the goal of providing Covenants is to give Estate operators....
Kamael Xevious: but how will it be enforced?
Fidelio Matador: I cannot be told whom to allow into my bedroom
First Page: still bound but that would change for estates owners some the 'TOS'
Daniel Linden: ....a way to explain their community and communicate their standards and vision....
Kamael Xevious: I agree, Fidelio. But many estates have public areas.
Traxx Hathor: explain and enforce are different
Fidelio Matador: My entire estate is private
Daniel Linden: ....so that everyone visiting or buying land knows to what they are agreeing....
Fidelio Matador: No one may come there without agreeing to my rules
Daniel Linden: ...and can make an informed choice to visit, live, or do business there.
Fidelio Matador: No one who wishes to break my rules need occupy my land.
Fidelio Matador: very simple.
Eloise Pasteur: There's a difference between taking to bed or not and supporting intolerance
Traxx Hathor: yes
Hiro Queso: Thats fair enough Fidelio
First Page: right but in doing so . we will be able to do as we please as long as we pay for our estate to LL basically correct?
Dana Bergson: but i guess a Covenant contradicting the TOS
Dana Bergson: would be imposible?
Dana Bergson: i hope!
Kamael Xevious: So you'd be okay with Neo-Nazis setting up a No Jews permitted estate?
Traxx Hathor: It could be ARd?
Hiro Queso: example Dana?
Fidelio Matador: Of course
Dana Bergson: intolerance
Dana Bergson: for example
Fidelio Matador: lololol
Dana Bergson: religios
Dana Bergson: reacial
Fidelio Matador: Where is intolerance a law of nature, in *private* land?
Kamael Xevious: I think I foresee problems with that.
Traxx Hathor: I would AR that
Kamael Xevious: I would too.
Fidelio Matador: you will see problems from people with chips on their shoulders
Hiro Queso: well this is why its an interesting area. There are furry only areas, are they intolerant?
Fidelio Matador: Goreans are badmouthed shunned and treated poorly in the Mainland
Traxx Hathor: and that is wrong
Jeska Linden: Ok, we've reached our hour limit -- I'll be posting this tot he forums, but if anyone had any further comments/questions/etc., please feel free to post them :)
Turgar Nilsson: it raises a whole set of issues with the TOS...and precedence
Kamael Xevious: Not on my properties they're not.
Fidelio Matador: Women do not rule on Gor
Fidelio Matador: that is the nature of the theme
Dana Bergson: :)
Fidelio Matador: it is not intolerance, it is exactly why we came here
First Page: *smiles* thanks Jeska Robin and Daniel
Turgar Nilsson: thank you guys
Dana Bergson: Thank you very much. This was a very informative evening (for me)!
Kamael Xevious: Thanks, JEska.
Daniel Linden: Thanks for coming all -- if you've thought or idea about Estate governance or Covenants....feel free to let me know.
Fidelio Matador: Thanks most much,
Traxx Hathor: thanks everyone : )
Robin Linden: thanks for all the great ideas everybody!