Meeting Log - Group 4

Daniel Linden: I'm happy to get the barrel rolling.....
Daniel Linden: Groups: Yeah, we ought to fix those.
Khamon Fate: are you laughing at tiger's title
Daniel Linden: Covenants: not really related to Groups....at this point anyway.
Khamon Fate: monkey monkey goose
Katt Kongo: Hi Forseti :)
Daniel Linden: The point is, there are really two different topics to cover here....
Robin Linden: Hi forseti
Daniel Linden: Covenants are important mainly to Estate Owners.....
Forseti Svarog: hi all
Daniel Linden: ....but fixing the Groups....well, that for everyone!
Daniel Linden: If I were to ask you for your biggest pain point about Groups....
Daniel Linden: ...what would that be?
Khamon Fate: communication but y'all moved that to phase I already
MarkTwain White: not enough, .... granularity, GRIN
Katt Kongo: just one?
eltee Statosky: difficulty with working whats needed into the current system, permission/user class/ability wise
Khamon Fate: then land deeding but you're fixing that too
Forseti Svarog: inability to run a business with more than 1 person (or else really strong trust) -- i.e. lack of role-based permissions
Justice Soothsayer: Group officers can take land away from the group w/out group permission
Daniel Linden: Have y'all read the notes from the sessions?
Michi Lumin: correct. Assignment of rights, permissions, etc, to group members; not just officer/member.
Khamon Fate: have
MarkTwain White: i have
eltee Statosky: just got out of 11 hours of RL meetings today x.x
eltee Statosky: sorry x.x
Daniel Linden: OK, so you done your homework.
Khamon Fate: oh my goodness
Daniel Linden: So I'll say: Fixed, Fixed, and Fixed.
Khamon Fate: and read tiger's and prok's blogs
Daniel Linden: Any questions?
Khamon Fate: i'm a glutton
MarkTwain White: done
Forseti Svarog: beautiful lol
Michi Lumin: ok wait; Fixed howso, Daniel?
Khamon Fate: yes, will the voting system change at all, or not, if so how?
Daniel Linden: More detail? OK -- I'll throw it to Robin!
Michi Lumin: Because one concern I'd have is if it was going forced hierarchical, that'll be bad for our group, at least.
MarkTwain White: awww thot we had an hour to tell Linden jokes
Daniel Linden: Or maybe not.....
Robin Linden: No?
Jeska Linden: no linden jokes!
Daniel Linden: Michi -- the current plan should allow you to create various member types and assign permissions as you choose.
Khamon Fate: how many lindens does it take to rez a cube?
Robin Linden: 3 things we want to work on this quarter, with possibly another 2 to be added -- we'll see how far we get
Michi Lumin: Well, okay. But for existing groups... would that be based on the founder?
Daniel Linden: The key word is 'flexibility'.
Robin Linden: First: changing the number of groups allowed and lowering the size limit to 2
Katt Kongo: good
MarkTwain White: like it
Robin Linden: Second: allow group announcement function, object to group and improving group IM
Justice Soothsayer: low hanging fruit
Robin Linden: Third: and this is the biggest one
Robin Linden: Allow founders to define roles and assign permissions to those roles from a list of many different actions
Khamon Fate: question there
MarkTwain White: ok you win, i will stay in SL
MarkTwain White: good changes
Robin Linden: So maximum flexibility in structuring the group and assigning capabilities to the people in the group down to the individual level
Robin Linden: What's that Khamon?
Michi Lumin: ok; yes, i'd like clarification on that as well. Are these going to be predefined roles, and, will a founder be able to specify 'near-founder' rights?
Michi Lumin: In other words, What capabilities are reserved ONLY for the founder, and will the definitions be fluid.
Daniel Linden: Michi -- not predefined.
Daniel Linden: Assign as many or as few rights as you choose.
eltee Statosky: can the right to assign rights, be assigned?
Robin Linden: We don't have the UI design yet, but imagine a list of 30+ functions. Things like name land, make a payment,
Daniel Linden: We don't have that level of detail as yet, Eltee.
MarkTwain White: use Estate tools?
Robin Linden: The founder would define a role and then check a box on or off depending on the permissions for that role
Michi Lumin: well, Mark, not all of us run 'estates' per se...
Khamon Fate: roles are "subgroups" of members right? hi sal, will LL add default roles or will they be strictly created by the founder(s) and will we be able to group roles themselves to create "superroles" to assign people to?
Robin Linden: If it goes the way we like, it will have the ability to save a set of permissions for a specific role as a "template"
eltee Statosky: it would be nice for some groups at least, if non 'uuid' founder people, could be 'founders' and have same access to overall group regulation essentially
Khamon Fate: alternately, can we assign members to multiple roles?
Forseti Svarog: does a group have it's own bank account that you can select who can pay out from?
Robin Linden: That template could be shared or sold
Robin Linden: The founder could give some people the exact same permissions the founder has
Daniel Linden: Mark: the next version of the Estate Tools included an Estate Tools access list.
eltee Statosky: okay thank you robin that answers our main question
MarkTwain White: ty Daniel
Michi Lumin: Basically we have a situation here; at least in Luskwood, we have the four 'luskwood founders' and work on an egalitarian basis; we all have the same rights -- even though Eltee is 'technically' founder of the group, in binary code. (Because someone
Michi Lumin: had to be)
Daniel Linden: It'll likely accomodate that.
Robin Linden: the other feature on our list are tools for businesses -- better accounting and tracking, and downloadable spreadsheet
Michi Lumin: So I'd have to wonder if we would have to go to Eltee every time someone's rights had to be redefined in the group...
Daniel Linden: Though details are speculative...as it's not yet coded.
Forseti Svarog: great to hear robin
Katt Kongo: oh that is wonderful
Daniel Linden: We'll take that into consideration, Luskwooders.
Forseti Svarog: ah right michi -- you want to know if the founder, i.e. eltee can set other global admins
Michi Lumin: right.
Forseti Svarog: and remove that priviledge i imagine
Justice Soothsayer: I'dlike to see a group tool/role I call "investor"
eltee Statosky: it sounds like with this system you can create arbitrary roles with arbitrary permissions alot like OS user profiles
Justice Soothsayer: where the investor could be assured of payment or an interest in land in exchange for $L.
Khamon Fate: am i here?
eltee Statosky: which is pretty much best way to go about things i think
Salazar Jack: Yes Khamon.
Katt Kongo: yes :)
Daniel Linden: Did we miss a question, K?
Daniel Linden: Becuase you are here.
Robin Linden: I think so eltee
Robin Linden: I hope it will have that degree of flexibility
Daniel Linden: Additional comments, questions, rants, rebuttals?
Salazar Jack: Have you discussed being able to assign owner-type privledges... like being able to terra-form... to group members?
Katt Kongo: any idea when these tools will be available?
Michi Lumin: Is anything being looked at, as per, group land tools? I know you guys say convenants are only an estate owner issue but... really they arent :|
Daniel Linden: Linking into Land Permissions gets...well...complicated.
Forseti Svarog: justice i would imagine that an investor has to go on faith that a payout will happen just like in RL ... a company can decide not to pay it's dividends... get into trouble yes, but can try not to pay
Khamon Fate: i'm not typing all that again, i'll email it later. robin, when you say "number of groups" do you mean a moderate increase such as 20-30?
Daniel Linden: We'd like to do that, but without breaking other things....
Khamon Fate: or an increase in the number of people in a group?
Daniel Linden: ....so that a secondary goal.
Justice Soothsayer: But in RL an investor can be "Secured" by an interest in land or other property, not just on faith
Salazar Jack: Does that include being able to plant Linden-trees and plants, Daniel?
Robin Linden: Most likely Khamon. With a fee to add more groups beyond that
Justice Soothsayer: If the group tools allowed us to give rights to investors, we could grow the SL economy
Robin Linden: Groups are database intensive
Daniel Linden: Can't yet say, Sal.
Michi Lumin: understandable; i wouldn't object to a fee for group join. Would it be recurring (maintenance fee) ?
Daniel Linden: Fixing the permission and communications issues are Job A1....
Khamon Fate: yeah don't like the fees. if the database is maxed at a given number, impose that for practicality and make us live with it
Robin Linden: What do you think it should be Michi?
Forseti Svarog: yes... to the extent that something is non-IP based justice, but IP and services makes up the majority of our economy, not land
Daniel Linden: ...we'll hack at more branches after that.
Robin Linden: I haven't thought it through yet
Khamon Fate: if we want more groups, we can keep our inventories trimmed and make room for them
Robin Linden: If it's an ongoing use, then like land use fees, it might make sense
Salazar Jack: Thanks, Daniel.
Khamon Fate: is the voting system going to change at all?
Khamon Fate: slated to be changed at all?
Robin Linden: It's not on the priority list Khamon
Robin Linden: What do you want to change?
Michi Lumin: Well.
Daniel Linden: What changes would you like to see?
Michi Lumin: I honestly wouldn't *favor* too high of a recurrant fee....
Michi Lumin: but.. that may be neccessary...
Khamon Fate: i don't other than to throw the feature out all together, i'm just asking informationally
Daniel Linden: Perhaps we can sneek in a tweak or two to make votes less obtrusive....
Khamon Fate: tell us about group inventory with a shared folder, is that a serious consideration?
Michi Lumin: It looks like, in the future, we'll be paying inventory fees as well (most likely), I'm just wondering-- and i know, im a little late on the response :\
Daniel Linden: ...the communications fixes, of course, should result in fewer silly votes....
Salazar Jack: Have you discussed at all adding function that would help with renting land, would that fall under assiging a role in the group? Like a land renter with certian privledges?
Robin Linden: I've put group inventory on the list, but we need to do a lot more investigation into the impact and how it might work
Daniel Linden: Michi -- large groups and large numbers of groups do entail a server/DB load....
Salazar Jack: My land is all on the mainland so I don't have the benefit of estate tools or how groups can work differently there.
Khamon Fate: or maybe a rental feature will be built into the land tools
Daniel Linden: ....we'll find some sort of happy accomodation that works for everyone.
Khamon Fate: we can dream right?
Michi Lumin: Salazar: i'm with you there... Non-estate landowners, even large landowners (2 sims or so heh) have been.. kinda ignored there :\
Robin Linden: or an easier way to make payments and share land without giving it away
Khamon Fate: stay on topic khamon /me slaps wrist
Katt Kongo: lol
Michi Lumin: We really do need better group tools as far as.. day to day management of folks on the group land, etc.. but I'm not sure if that strays too far from what we're doing tonight.
Daniel Linden: Michi: while working on the Covenant project, we gave a lot of consideration to 'mainland' Region owners.....
Daniel Linden: ....bottom line: we couldn't find a 'one-size-fits-all' solution that works on the Main and on Estates.
Salazar Jack: Yes, Robin, exactly. That would help a lot!
Michi Lumin: We don't even really have an effective ban. And that's a problem. :\
Khamon Fate: covenants are a nice feature, but the main land tool we need a year ago is a rental feature
Daniel Linden: So we don't want to saddle either group with a least-common denominator plan.
Khamon Fate: y'all know that
Michi Lumin: hmm, ok, Daniel, then will mainland owners be considered in a separate plan? :\
Daniel Linden: Yes.
Daniel Linden: Of course.
Michi Lumin: okay.... that's good...
Daniel Linden: Can I ask a slightly off-topic question?
Michi Lumin: You're the Linden, of course you can. :>
Khamon Fate: can i ask one more group question?
Robin Linden: khamon why don't you shoot me an email with your thoughts on what a rental feature would look like -- what would it allow you to do as the land owner, and the renter to do
Salazar Jack: Right on Khamon!
Robin Linden: or are you looking for some sort of contract?
Daniel Linden: Being on the mainland will always make it harder for a group like Luskwood to grow.....
Khamon Fate: sure thing
Daniel Linden: ...is that an issue for you? Would you move 'off-shore' if it were easy or cost effective?
Michi Lumin: Daniel, we simply can't afford the upfront as it is for an outlay of x-many private islands, not to mention we don't want to be exclusive...
Michi Lumin: Well.... The four of us would have to discuss the impact it would have on the experience...
Salazar Jack: I can see how being on the mainland has it's own quirks...
Khamon Fate: agree, i'd rather stay on the mainland
Salazar Jack: not as private and all that.
Michi Lumin: I mean, we do depend on some things: tier, for one.....
Salazar Jack: There are some things one has to live with to be in such a public space.
Michi Lumin: Going to private islands and maintaining the same size, would really hurt us in the pocketbook.
eltee Statosky: actually i'd say the converse has been true
eltee Statosky: being on the mainland has helped us to grow
Daniel Linden: ...due largely to the start-up costs?
eltee Statosky: because we could do it on our own time at our own pace, and smoothly
eltee Statosky: not $1200 at a time
Michi Lumin: If it were cost effective; we could look into it......... but I don't see how it would be in the -- well Daniel that and our monthly would double.
Salazar Jack: I would love to talk with you folks later Michi about just this sort of thing.
Michi Lumin: Right now we can put our -- honestly -- lifetime tier of the four of us towards Luskwood.....
Michi Lumin: Plus the group bonus on tier....
Khamon Fate: my other group question, being able to share land simply by sharing (not deeding it) is a fabulous idea kudos111 will we be able to do that with objects at some point? has there been any talk about that or fixing the group object permission problem?
eltee Statosky: we never over-extended ourselves, or had to take undue risks to accomidate expansion
Michi Lumin: we'd basically have to pay twice as much in non-tier maintenance costs.
Forseti Svarog: is the group bonus on tier changing?
Daniel Linden: Permission are a very big pill -- difficult to swallow whole.
Khamon Fate: ha ha ha
Salazar Jack: Right about growth there emtee... you get much more exposure on the Mainland.
eltee Statosky: we've expanded very very smoothly, from the 600sqm i had 2.5 years ago, to the 2.5 sims we have today, one plot at a time
Khamon Fate: forseti if we simply share land with the group, it won't have any bonus
Michi Lumin: Basically, we could go to -ONE- PI, halving our land, and still have to fork out L$1200 for that privilege :\
Daniel Linden: Khamon, it will be addressed, but it won't be this go-round.
Forseti Svarog: yes, we desperately need to enable collaborative building/designing... the enable modify rights system now is not effective
Khamon Fate: k
Salazar Jack: And being able to gradually add land that is connected is a nice benefit too.
Khamon Fate: it's worked for me during collaboarative building contests
Daniel Linden: Great feedback -- that's really why we haven't attempted to graft a Estate plan onto the mainland....
Forseti Svarog: well khamon, the ability to not be able to edit a texture on a particular side of a prim is an example of debilitating
Daniel Linden: ....the Main has it's good and bad, as do Estates.
Khamon Fate: the main with 40m terraforming has it's good
Daniel Linden: So let's chat about these Estate Covenants that everyone's talking so much about.....
Khamon Fate: just wish we could update that dirt texture
Khamon Fate: ahem
Daniel Linden: ...who here is an Estate Owner?
MarkTwain White: i am
Daniel Linden: Just one?
MarkTwain White: wow
Daniel Linden: OK.
Daniel Linden: In the simplest terms, a Covenant is a text field....
Daniel Linden: ...one that layouts what an Estate is about; it's goals, vision, and Local Standards.
Daniel Linden: Considered more deeply, it's a pretty powerful thing:
Salazar Jack: Collaberative building has work good for me as well. But there are a lot of things to remember to check to make sure that objects get shared properly and have the perms you want them to have when they get modded and assigned to a new owner.
Daniel Linden: It allows you to set expectations for anyone deciding to visit, do business, or own land in your Estate.
Salazar Jack: It can get complicated and maybe a bit much for a casual user.
Daniel Linden: And, yes, I said own land.
Daniel Linden: We're going to enable landsales on Estate.
Daniel Linden: In the viewer, just it works on the mainland....
Daniel Linden: ....save for those pesky Linden tier fees.
Khamon Fate: that's a good thing

PART TWO:


MarkTwain White: hehehe
MarkTwain White: not sure what you mean by..
Khamon Fate: if we had a rental feature...
Salazar Jack: At least the roofs are offf the telehibs now, Khamon!
MarkTwain White: setting coveneant for visitors
eltee Statosky: what kinf od enforcement responsability is LL going to take on if the owner violates the covenant?
Salazar Jack: telehubs*
Katt Kongo: so the estate owner would still pay tier?
Forseti Svarog: aside: salazar, i find too many of the edit options greyed out or inaccessible in collaborative building, even if you do remember to make sure next owner can mod/copy/transfer
Robin Linden: yes katt
Katt Kongo: ok
Salazar Jack: Does Estate Owner = Private Island?
Robin Linden: Yes
Daniel Linden: Yes, the Estate owner will pay their Estate fees.
eltee Statosky: aka if you spend $40k linden for an estate plot
Daniel Linden: Arranges with their own Residents are up to them.
eltee Statosky: that was 'sold' to you with a covenant
eltee Statosky: who is responsable if they eject you and take the land back?
Daniel Linden: Mark, a covenant might include Local Standards -- zoning, by-laws, local norms: 'Only Prairie-style home in Frank Lloyd Wrightland'.
Daniel Linden: The Estate owner will have the ability to enforce those Local Standards.
MarkTwain White: was curious about covenants for vistors that you mentioned
Michi Lumin: Makes sense... but... what keeps that from being gamed?
Daniel Linden: Anyone visiting or buying land, or doing business, will agree to follow those Local Standards.
Michi Lumin: Agree how though, Daniel?
Katt Kongo: will covenants be effected in mainland regions at some point?
User not online - inventory has been saved.
Daniel Linden: In the bigger picture, Estate Owners should be their own 'Governor Linden'.
MarkTwain White: oh boy, I'm a Linden
Katt Kongo: hehe
Daniel Linden: They should have all the tools we've used to create our vision of Second Life -- here on the Main....
eltee Statosky: the only thing that bothers me is accountability, if LL accepts covenants as a strong enough contract to allow 'land sales' what is going to happen if the true owner violates it?
Michi Lumin: I'd hope so Katt. :|
Katt Kongo: me too
Daniel Linden: ....to build your own, indenpendent, parallel visions of Second Life.
Michi Lumin: tha'ts what I meant by gamed, Eltee...
Khamon Fate: in all fairness then, they should have the ability to charge a recurring tier fee for occupancy
eltee Statosky: what rights will a purchaser have in that system
MarkTwain White: ok Daniel
Khamon Fate: automatically
Daniel Linden: They can, K. We may eventually integrate a billing mechanism...
Daniel Linden: ...though we're not a billing service organization by trade....
Khamon Fate: oh heavens, i mean a linden based fee, not charging credit cards
Daniel Linden: ...and maybe there's a better way to make that happen.
Daniel Linden: In the first go-round, we'll leave that up the Estate Owners.
Daniel Linden: But I agree, an automate system is very appealing.
Salazar Jack: Would the Estate owners be solely responsible for (for lack of a better word) policing their estate. Would Lindens be involved at all at that point?
Daniel Linden: Everyone in SL agrees to the Terms of Service and Community Standards.
Daniel Linden: We're still responsible for the broader world.
Salazar Jack: Gotcha.
Daniel Linden: Estate Owners will be able to enforce Local Standards on a Local Level.
MarkTwain White: In Hollywood as long as you dont spit on the walk of fame you are gold
Khamon Fate: oh oh, a raging question here is whether or not these covenants are bound by the Second Life TOS and CS? Y'all have skirted around that but will have to answer in a straightforward manner before you implement this.
Salazar Jack: But they can still call in the Lindenry.
Daniel Linden: An Estate Owner won't be able to expell anyone from all of SL....
Daniel Linden: ....for building a Cape Cod cottage in Frank Lloyd Wrightland.
Daniel Linden: They will, however, be able to expell them from FLWland.
Daniel Linden: Local Standards = Local Enforcement.
Michi Lumin: But Daniel, I think what Eltee asked before, what'd happen if someone paid for land in FWLLand and they -decided- immediately that it wasn't under covenant, ejected them, kept the money..
eltee Statosky: can't they do that currently though?
Salazar Jack: States.
Khamon Fate: yes they can
Michi Lumin: .Honestly isn't that a subjective thing?
Khamon Fate: but LL can do that too
eltee Statosky: im just worried that it opens the windoe for alot of user-exploitation
Khamon Fate: they don't, but they could
Khamon Fate: the TOS says they can in fact
eltee Statosky: i do not see how adding a text box solves the problem of people potentially abusing their land holders for fun and profit, takin money an bootin them out, etc
Salazar Jack: Reputation will be very important for folks who set up estates.
Daniel Linden: Anyone agreeing to a covenant agrees to enforcement by the Estate operator....and that sort of behaviour wouldn't be good business....
Daniel Linden: ...on a larger level, we have never and will never allow Second Life systems, land, or currency to be used to commit fraud.
Salazar Jack: Word wouul dget around if someone wasn't acting honorably.
Daniel Linden: ...so we're giving this type of situation careful consideration.
Michi Lumin: Well, true Salazar, but there's always an influx of newbies. "fresh meat" as it were.
eltee Statosky: it'd be great business if you managed to sell to enough players, then cut and run, sellin yer island to a bigger owner who flattens it and ejects everyone
Daniel Linden: Word travels fast in Second Life....
Katt Kongo: reputation means a lot in SL, no matter if you are an estate owner or not
Khamon Fate: it does that
Khamon Fate: oh oh, a raging question here is whether or not these covenants are bound by the Second Life TOS and CS? Y'all have skirted around that but will have to answer in a straightforward manner before you implement this.
Robin Linden: I'm sorry to interrupt -- I have to run to catch a train.
eltee Statosky: okay robin
Khamon Fate: have a nice trip
Katt Kongo: Bye Robin, take care
MarkTwain White: bye robin
Daniel Linden: The ToS -- yes, of course.
Khamon Fate: thanks for talking with us
Daniel Linden: The Community Standards.....
Michi Lumin: Later, Robin. Thanks.
eltee Statosky: but thats my big concern, in general the has been a 'subcurrent' of exploitation for profit, especially when it comes to land, in SL
Robin Linden: I want to thank you all for coming, and I'm sorry I won't get to hear the rest of the discussion, but I'll read the log.
Robin Linden: cya
Daniel Linden: ....I hope so. The degree of indenpendence granted here is very important.....
Daniel Linden: ...so that's a design decision that we've still to resolve.
Daniel Linden: My feeling is that the Local Standards should be compatible with the Community Standards and the ethos of Second Life as it stands today.
eltee Statosky: theres enough people who do not take 'SL' reprocussions seriously enough to to dissuade them from abusing the system for a profit
Khamon Fate: understandable, just be sure to make your final decision very clear before you end up with covenants that you can't live with
Daniel Linden: Defing that 'compatibility' is an upcoming challenge.
eltee Statosky: buy a few 16sqm plots with giant spinning signs in the middle of yer land you can begin to get very bitter about how people view ethics when it comes to makin a linden or three
Salazar Jack: Yes, Michi, the fresh meat needs to have good info, perhaps at the infohubs, about how this world works and what they can expect to encounter as they start living their second life.
Katt Kongo nods.
Khamon Fate: yes eltee but selling estate lots and booting people is major fraud. if that were tolerable at all, people would be doing it now
Michi Lumin: well, I agree with that...
eltee Statosky: they can't really 'do' it now
eltee Statosky: in that land on islands does not show up 'for sale'
eltee Statosky: and i personally know more than oen person who was *already* burned by that
Daniel Linden: Residents 'buy' land on Estate every day...
eltee Statosky: aka its *already* confusing what rights people are getting on an island
Salazar Jack: Those are great points, eltee.
eltee Statosky: and this seems like it may only make that worse
Daniel Linden: ...bringing those transactions out of the 'grey market' and into Second Life proper will afford these transactions....
Michi Lumin: They buy rights to useage, yes; granted -we- buy rights to usage via LL, but there's another layer there.
Khamon Fate: if it's a widespread problem, LL should take that into consideration
Daniel Linden: ....a much greater level of reliablity and protection.
eltee Statosky: we have talked with people who wanted to move in to land we are offering free
Khamon Fate: an enforcable rental feature that refunded prorated moneys on ejection will solve i know i know email
eltee Statosky: and ended up backing out when their island land 'ownership' and resale ability came into question
Salazar Jack: Exccellent Khamon!
eltee Statosky: something like that
eltee Statosky: refunding lindens on ejection
Michi Lumin: that'd be nice... there should be some more mechanization of the 'rent' feature or, sale upon eject....
eltee Statosky: would REALLY help against my complaint
Michi Lumin: yes
Michi Lumin: absolutely. Even if you break the covenant, you get prorated amount back.... within say... 90 days
Michi Lumin: if they eject you within that time....
MarkTwain White: darn my evil plan has been foiled
Michi Lumin: they can still -eject- you, but can't profit from your VERY short residency.
Khamon Fate: i'll post a copy of the outline so we can all discuss it in hell ^h^h^h^h^h the forum
Daniel Linden: What is being 'evicted' were more akin to be 'locked-out'?
Michi Lumin: well, they -can-, but they can profit proportional to the small length of it.
Forseti Svarog: heheh indeed hell
Daniel Linden: Someone bansihed couldn't use the parcel anymore....but could sell it.
Daniel Linden: Perhaps, even, for a profit.
Michi Lumin: that could work, too...
eltee Statosky: that may be an effective argument against my position daniel
MarkTwain White: that makes sense to me
Michi Lumin: in ot her words, you violated the covenant, you ca'nt -use- it but you can at least sell to remake what you put out....
Khamon Fate: yeah but if the owner couldn't resell the parcel for the specified time unless they let the money be refunded, banishment would only result in them being stuck with unusable land
eltee Statosky: i just see a system were $teve moneybags can sell you land for $10 us
eltee Statosky: and then eject you an hour later, as too volnerable to abuse
Salazar Jack: Couldn't that be used against the larger land/covenant group. There could be land that someone gets locked out of.. but they hold on to it indeffinately out of spite or something.
Michi Lumin: Time limits, Salazar....
Michi Lumin: I jsut think something could be used in this way...
Michi Lumin: er i mean.... sorry heh
Forseti Svarog: how about the flip side eltee, you buy a plot. 6 months later you put up impeach bush signs. the owner boots you. you demand double what you paid to sell land back
Khamon Fate: before we run out of time, can i ask another group question?
Salazar Jack: Ah okay.. time limits.
Daniel Linden: I would expect, in most cases, Residents would choose to buy in an Estate because they believe in the Community and favor the Local Standards....
Daniel Linden: ...the most likely reason for an eviction would probably be non-payment....
Salazar Jack: COmmon sense would indicate that, yes Daniel.
eltee Statosky: thas why my intial reccomendation would be to just automatically refund people who are ejected
eltee Statosky: what they originally paid to the island owner
eltee Statosky: no one can 'game' that in any way i can think of
Khamon Fate: something robin said yesterday made me think that y'all were planning to remove the ability to deed land to a group in favour of sharing land with a group but retaining ownership. did i just misunderstand that?
Forseti Svarog: i suppose, unless land values plummet
Salazar Jack: But what if the motive was not honorable?
Salazar Jack: I am seeing eltee's perspective as being a good thing in that case.
Michi Lumin: Well, I hope deeding to group doesn't go away, again, we don't operate hierarchically so....
Daniel Linden: K -- I'd love to give Resident more options to share land and collaborate on project than Deed Land.
Daniel Linden: Group-owned land can become very, very complicated....
Michi Lumin: hm.. does that mean it's on the way out, Daniel?
Daniel Linden: ...and there are many situation where there probably are better options for us to pursue.
Forseti Svarog: daniel i apologize if i missed this, but is there any functionality to make it easier for events to charge admission? and enforce admission?
Michi Lumin: Because, as I've said, really --- our situation works as Luskwood, not as 'eltee's land' :|
Daniel Linden: Forseti -- beyond the 'Buy Pass' land feature.
Daniel Linden: Deed Land isn't going away.
Khamon Fate: i just want to go on record as saying that i have never suggested or advocated eliminating the ability to deed land to a group.
Forseti Svarog: yeah it doesn't apply to me so much, but i've heard many people say the current system for selling "tickets" isn't effective
Daniel Linden: But it would be nice to have other 'options' a bit short of that.
Salazar Jack: Good point, Michi. There are many situations where deeding land to the group makes sense.
Khamon Fate: yes it would that
Michi Lumin: yes... Some things worry me since, it seems -many- people use groups as a "boss, underlings, rank" situation, and not in an "all are equal" situation.... so i'd like to make sure that option doesn't go away.
Khamon Fate: is it dark?
Forseti Svarog: yes second that michi -- both options would be useful
Salazar Jack: It is for mme Khamon.
Khamon Fate: oh good
MarkTwain White: dark as a black cat in a coal mine at midnight
Salazar Jack: Thnaks for saying that Deed Land wasn't going away, Daniel.
Khamon Fate: we need fullbright skin textures
Khamon Fate: that would be fun
Katt Kongo: lol
MarkTwain White: heheheh
Michi Lumin: Khamon, and shiny ones, but that's another meeting.
Khamon Fate: now you see me now you don't
Khamon Fate: yes after the land tools focus groups we can have avatar focus groups
Khamon Fate: right jeska?
Khamon Fate: make a list
Daniel Linden: Time to wrap it up, methinks.
Daniel Linden: Any parting shots?
Jeska Linden: *g*
Jeska Linden: I like all focus groups
Daniel Linden: Burning sensations...er..questions?
Michi Lumin: Well, no... I don't think so.. Just.. "Remember the Mainland" :>
Justice Soothsayer: thanks for having the groups and listening to the input
Salazar Jack: Please let me someday be able to give permission to others or group members to plant Linden trees and terraform!
Khamon Fate: i appreciate y'all revamping group tools, it'll make all the difference
Khamon Fate: and it's swell of y'all to let us participate as much as we can
Khamon Fate: other than coding which we could help with too
Michi Lumin: yes, thanks...
Khamon Fate: if you like
Salazar Jack: Thanks for having this discussion.
MarkTwain White: three cheers for Jeska, Daniel, and Robin
eltee Statosky: it soudns okay i just hope you guys keep in mind that for every good idea, if its not implemented well, there will be people who try and exploit it
Jeska Linden: I'll be posting this to the forums.
Khamon Fate: oh that reminds me i gotta finish typing out those hacks
eltee Statosky: as long as yer aware it may be abused, im sure you can find a way to plug the hole
Khamon Fate: after the rental posting
Forseti Svarog: yes, eltee, but to some problems you need social, not technical fixes
eltee Statosky: either works
eltee Statosky: so long as its well thought out
Daniel Linden: Thanks for coming!
Salazar Jack: Goodnight everryone!
eltee Statosky: thanks daniel
Forseti Svarog: the fact is, if new island owners exploit users with rentals, there will be a shift to only renting from people who have been in world a bit
Katt Kongo: I didn't contribute much, but I did learn a lot
Forseti Svarog: thank you all, interesting
Daniel Linden: Feel free to drop thoughts, suggestions, and thinly-veiled threats to me at [email]Daniel@lindenlab.com[/email].
Katt Kongo: lol
Jeska Linden: Thanks everyone
Daniel Linden: As always, I'm a great reader, but a poor penpal.