Third Group Meeting Notes

From Today's 4pm Meeting:

PART ONE

Daniel Linden: Are we waiting on anyone, or shall we make with the talking?
Prokofy Neva: Let's make with the talking.
Roseann Flora: lets do it
Jeska Linden: Talking Yeah!
Jeska Linden: Thanks for coming out everyone.
Jana Fleming: thanks for the invite
Daniel Linden: The topics of this little convocation are Group improvements and Covenants.
Daniel Linden: These two items, interestingly, don't really have much to do with each other.
Daniel Linden: Regardless, we'll discuss both projects, answer question, and solicit your feedback.....
Daniel Linden: ....starting with....
Daniel Linden: Groups! Robin?
Robin Linden: OK - the groups project has 2 phases, and we're really focusing right now on the first phase
Robin Linden: In this phase we'll be working with the existing tools and improving them, particularly as it relates to communication and permissions
Dianne Mechanique: nice unimposing chair :))
Robin Linden: In the second phase which won't start until later this year we'll look at adding new features to give groups more flexibility
Jana Fleming: lol
Jeska Linden hides from the evil chair
Robin Linden: so things like a group events calendar, group inventory and account history, and a much better group directory
Robin Linden: For now there are the following 4 focuses:
Dianne Mechanique: foci
Robin Linden: 1. general characteristics -- number allowed and size
Robin Linden: 2. communication - a group announcement function, object transfer, and improved group IM
Robin Linden: 3. this is the big one
Robin Linden: more flexibility with group roles and refinement of permissions
Robin Linden: 4. group functions tied to group rather than land, although not instead, but as an option
Robin Linden: for example, a shared ban list without having to deed your land to a group.
Robin Linden: While not a "covenant" perse, this allows people to create a home owner's association without giving up their land
Dianne Mechanique: groups without land donations?
Dianne Mechanique: youmean?
Robin Linden: Questions?
Prokofy Neva: Yes
Robin Linden: Yes Dianne
Dianne Mechanique: so this is the granularity of permissions we have heard about?
Roseann Flora: will there be tools to open up land for new owners who will contribute to the community?
Robin Linden: I'm not sure what you mean Roseann.
Robin Linden: We're looking at doing 2 things with permissions
Roseann Flora: will there be tools to enforce a set of agreed upon rules such as no vendors, no vehicles, no guns, no smoking that sort of thing?
Robin Linden: First allowing a founder to assign permissions by role within the group, or even by individual person
Jeska Linden: Right, it would be whatever rules you wanted.
Dianne Mechanique: i tihnk thats covenants
Robin Linden: This will allow people to assign one person to terraform land, for example
Jeska Linden: But that's more covenants, as Dianne said ;)
Prokofy Neva: Could I ask something very basic?
Robin Linden: Second is to expand the number of types of roles within a group
Robin Linden: Roseann, I don't think we'll get to that level of granularity on the mainland
Robin Linden: What's your question Prok?
Prokofy Neva: I'm troubled by the comment Daniel made that "group tools and covenants have nothing to do with each other"
Prokofy Neva: I'm worried about this a great deal.
Robin Linden: I think that means that we have two projects, it's not a semantic argument
Roseann Flora: My interest is basically in situations for absentee owners who never log in and yet refuse to sell their land which is out of theme
Daniel Linden: Indeedy, simply seperate projects.
Prokofy Neva: What I'm concernd about is the sequencing
Prokofy Neva: If you do not have adequate group tools, you can't have covenants, full stop
Prokofy Neva: Now I would like to ask about one very major issue
Prokofy Neva: There's a hole in the group tools through which you can drive a Mack truck as you know.
Robin Linden: The covenants, in the sense we want to talk about them here, apply to the estates, not the mainland
Prokofy Neva: And that is that anyone investing in land, and paying the tier on it, can lose it by a treacherous officer.
Prokofy Neva: So until we can hear your solution for that gaping wound in this system
Prokofy Neva: it's hard to really react to anything else
Robin Linden: Yes. That loophole is a primary motivator behind the changes we're implementing
Prokofy Neva: What we keep hearing
Prokofy Neva: is all this stuff about voting and granularity
Prokofy Neva: but if you keep subjecting a person's investment to a "vote"
Prokofy Neva: you paralize the group
Robin Linden: I don't think I said anything about voting.
Robin Linden: We're not planning to change the voting system.
Prokofy Neva: I'm talking about various resident proposals made, and it's hard to know, if they will get a hearing or not
Prokofy Neva: Everything depends on your concept, Robin.
Prokofy Neva: Is the concept to change the tools
Prokofy Neva: so that they offer the CHOICE of the hippie commune in San Francisco that even Daniel talked about yesterday?
Prokofy Neva: or something that can protect the rights of an entrepreneur?
Jeska Linden: The concept is to improve the group tools for all.
Prokofy Neva: with hierachival relationships that are the norm in a business.
Michael Fairplay is offline
Daniel Linden: Prokofy, the improvements to granting permissions in Groups would allow you to, say, give someone the ability to manage land, but not sell it.
Prokofy Neva: Ok is that a compromise when you say "for all"? or choice?
Jeska Linden: While offering as many options as possible to best service all communities.
Jeska Linden: Be them social or business or anything else.
Robin Linden: The concept is to make the tools as flexible as possible for people.
Daniel Linden: Or, perhaps, to set access lists without holding the purse strings.
Robin Linden: When they were originally developed we weren't considering they might be used to run businesses.
Daniel Linden: It should close up the loopholes quite effectively.
Prokofy Neva: OK I'm going to emphasize once gain that I'm all for serving all communities, I was the one who proposed this months ago
Prokofy Neva: but I do want to hear a robust answer: are you closing this hole in the first phase? Permanently?
Prokofy Neva: or not? and if not? why?
Robin Linden: Yes.
Dianne Mechanique: :)
Daniel Linden: Yes. And Yes.
Prokofy Neva: Ok great!
Daniel Linden: Also....yes.
Prokofy Neva: Now I'm not going to be WOOTING this Daniel until I see it.
Prokofy Neva: I'm sorry, but I've lost too many HUNDREDS OF US dollars to do any WOOTING.
Jeska Linden: There will be woots for all soon :)
Dianne Mechanique: I have a concern about the new granularity and expansion/flexibility of roles in the proposed system
Roseann Flora: My interest is basically in situations for absentee owners who never log in and yet refuse to sell their land which is out of theme
Prokofy Neva: When it drops down on my hard drive, then I'll light a candle of thanks.
Daniel Linden: We'll likewise refrain from permature Wooting.
Della Street is offline
Prokofy Neva: Roseann you won't have a group where that happens to you if they fix it right.
Daniel Linden: But closing that particular hole was the motivation for tackling the groups project this time around -- so your goal is our goal.
Robin Linden: Roseann - I don't know that you can force someone to sell their land if they don't want to.
Robin Linden: Changing group tools won't change that.
Prokofy Neva: Well it's not their land in a group -- that's the whole stickler to this entire thing.
Prokofy Neva: It's Nobody's.
Roseann Flora: yes ...but if I dont say whats on my mind no one will see it...so its out there and said,......we hope it can be worked out and fixed soon
Prokofy Neva: So if you have a new concept where I can deed but claw back, then let's hear it -- that's what people often talk about.
Robin Linden: Dianne - can you tell me what you're concerned about?
Dianne Mechanique: well in the expansion of roles
Dianne Mechanique: a lot of people are talking about at least one more role
Roseann Flora: its the same thing as if someone dose not log in there inventory gose
Roseann Flora: follow?
Dianne Mechanique: that of founder as opposed to officer
Robin Linden: Yes Roseann
Dianne Mechanique: but the applications are capitalistic
Prokofy Neva: Can a group work and function if there is deeding and clawing back? I do wonder about this, but it's something people wish they could do an often think they *can* do especially firstlanders, and currently all I can do with that very legitimate need i
Dianne Mechanique: or pyrimidacla in shape
Dianne Mechanique: i am concerned about groups
Daniel Linden: Prok, you should be able to 'associate' land with a group and have group access without deeding the land or getting into Group Ownership.
Dianne Mechanique: that have flatter organisations
Prokofy Neva: is make a notecarded agreement with them to give them back their land when they wish it
Dianne Mechanique: and if that will still be possible
Robin Linden: Let me finish with Dianne
Roseann Flora: and we need rules that one resident cannot harrass another
Dianne Mechanique: groups without founders
Prokofy Neva: ok Daniel but obviously that's going to be of limited value -- nobody will build on "associated" land when it can be pulled at any time
Dianne Mechanique: or groups where all are founders
Robin Linden: Dianne the founder will be able to assign any or all permissions to everyone in the group when it's set up
Prokofy Neva: just like tier is pulled in the middle of the night and Governor Linden then seizes it in 48 hours
Prokofy Neva: Daniel, would YOU build on associated land?
Robin Linden: So if the founder wants to create officers with the same exact permissions as the founder it will be possible
Prokofy Neva: It sounds like a hugely fun concept, but honestly, would you?
Daniel Linden: How would you like to see this work?
Dianne Mechanique: cna they be called founders though?
Robin Linden: If the founder wants to assign permissions on a per member basis that will also be possible.
Dianne Mechanique: and be the same in all respects?
Robin Linden: At least that'
Robin Linden: s the current plan
Robin Linden: Do you have other thoughts about it?
Prokofy Neva: If you're asking me how I'd like to see it work, to be honest, I wouldn't even cook up something like "associated land" it sounds to um hippie to me right now, sorry.
Dianne Mechanique: will the role titles be flexible then? or will they have to be founder, officer etc.?
Robin Linden: I'm thinking they'll be flexible
Prokofy Neva: Associated for what purpose? this seems like something more down the line for covenants than to pin on group tools now.
Jeska Linden: So the way it works now is you have to give your land up to the group.
Robin Linden: Assuming we can do that without a database problem
Dianne Mechanique: its jsut that some groups are not organisations
Dianne Mechanique: like companies
Robin Linden: Yes - more like a book club, let's say
Dianne Mechanique: i would hate to see the whole system reformed to accomodate busisness
Daniel Linden: Fair enough, what type of use are you seeking?
Prokofy Neva: In fact all groups now are forced to be these "not organizations like companies" now Dianne and that's the problem
Dianne Mechanique: and lose what we have
Prokofy Neva: what would you lose?
Dianne Mechanique: well yes
Dianne Mechanique: organisations with multiple principles at the moment
Dianne Mechanique: but in future
Dianne Mechanique: with a founder at the top
Prokofy Neva: why does a gain of protection for land owners have to be seen as a loss for book lovers? I never get this.
Dianne Mechanique: i wnt to keep what we have
Dianne Mechanique: and also allow for an entirely flat model
Prokofy Neva: Well where do you see any loss coming in?
Dianne Mechanique: on the other end
Prokofy Neva: get together, press "join" and read the book
Dianne Mechanique: probably its possible though
Dianne Mechanique: its just a concern
Daniel Linden: Are there any additional questions or comments about Groups?
Daniel Linden: Shall we speak of Covenants?
Jana Fleming: I'll start with #1 number of groups - i know we had an increase in number about a year ago. Can that be made unlimited or at least increased
Prokofy Neva: Yes I'd like to hear more about the voting.
Prokofy Neva: Will there be the same or different voter thingies in your new version?
Heaven Lily: Yes
Xandi Mars is offline
Robin Linden: What I'm looking for is a system that will be flexible enough to accommodate a variety of structures.
Roseann Flora: I basically want strong tools to keep out Cubey terra style vehicles and all guns and modernish buildings
Heaven Lily: More groups
Dianne Mechanique: yes robin
Robin Linden: That's why I want to allow people to tie permissions to the group without having to deed land
Jana Fleming: And will there be a mechanism so that my estate does not have to share dwell with my group "members"
Prokofy Neva: Cubey's blimp should be landing nearby shortly! sound the alarms!
Kat Lemieux: Increasing # of groups is important or merchants who rent multiple stores, too.
Robin Linden: I would expect so Jana
Dianne Mechanique: some groups are flat
Dianne Mechanique: and only share information
Dianne Mechanique: no leaders or officers at all
Kat Lemieux: But group commiunications and distribution tools are my primary concern right now
Dianne Mechanique: but i thinhk you have answered my questions robin
Char Linden is offline
Prokofy Neva: well every group starts with one person who right-clicks and pays $100
Kat Lemieux: I'll be really happy to see improvements in these areas
Robin Linden: In what way Kat?
Prokofy Neva: you can't get around that Dianne, and even in a perfectly equal social justice society, one person has to step up to the plate and pay the $100
Kat Lemieux: Making it possible to easily address all group membrs without creating "friends" of them, for instance to get a folder full of calling cards. That works, but it's awkward
Jeska Linden: Yes, improved communication is a priority
Jana Fleming: My island is equally owned by me and another person. I would love to be able to give him the same full permissions that I have as founder
Robin Linden: We're considering two improvments -- one is the ability to do a group announcement so you don't have to use the voting tool
Kat Lemieux: And being able to drop a notecard on a group instead of each profile individually would save lots of time
Robin Linden: The other is an improvement to IM
DebbieAnn Fairplay is offline
Robin Linden: And yes, object to group is on the list
Kat Lemieux: Good! I'm happy ;-)
Robin Linden: could be a notecard or a prim object
Robin Linden: Jana, the new estate tools will allow you to do that. You won't have to worry about setting up a group

Prokofy Neva: How will the object that is deeded know where to go when you press "return prims" on land? Currently it doesn't know, and it deletes itself in shock.
Robin Linden: that's a funny mental image, Prok
Dianne Mechanique: hehe
Prokofy Neva: well you lose thousands of dollars of videos deeded that way
Robin Linden: I don't know, but we'll include that in our thinking
Prokofy Neva: because it knows, even if WE don't, that when you have a group object, it really is nobody's and so it can't go back anywhere
Roseann Flora: will there be a list of what tools we can have soon?
Prokofy Neva: well if it were a Yahoo Group it would go in those side folders
Kat Lemieux: Group ownership of inventory items would be handy, but might be a nightmare, too.
Dianne Mechanique: yes losing group objects forver is a pain
Dianne Mechanique: and silly really
Prokofy Neva: but on here I don't know how you envision parking these group objects
Robin Linden: Ideally we'll have a group inventory, but not in this incarnation
Prokofy Neva: yeah it sounds like a potentially big bug swamp
Jana Fleming: The alternative to more groups is an option to allow specific ppl to place objects on the land without it being group land
Prokofy Neva: yes please don't do something that will only be buggy and make everybody ask you to roll it back
Robin Linden: unless I can eke it out in the developer time we have allotted
Prokofy Neva: it's too important
Dianne Mechanique: what about Jarods idea of permissions being granular on the calling card?
Robin Linden: My primary focus is the permissions and group structure part of the plan
Dianne Mechanique: doesnt that apply also
Prokofy Neva: Dianne, I do have to wonder how I am going to sit and fuss with HUNDREDS of cards in my groups that change CONSTANTLY.
Jeska Linden: You mean setting permissions by individual person?
Robin Linden: permissions will be set through the group tool, not the calling cards
Dianne Mechanique: well yes
Jeska Linden: That sounds like a nightmare.
Dianne Mechanique: mostly gorups woutld be the solution
Dianne Mechanique: but hsi idea is a grat soloution ofr other thigns like land permissions
Dianne Mechanique: amoungst freinds
Robin Linden: we have an idea how to do that -- it's actually quite easy
Dianne Mechanique: and editing objects
Prokofy Neva: well why not just make a folder of calling cards and perm up each other with build perms then?
Dianne Mechanique: well it really bothers me
Prokofy Neva: that's accomplished in a few minutes instead of installing it into group tools
Dianne Mechanique: that my GF has edit permissions
Dianne Mechanique: and we are in the same group
Prokofy Neva: on an island? or?
Dianne Mechanique: but we stil cant touch each others thigns sometimes its crazy
Prokofy Neva: well isn't that just general bugginess? I can't even touch my own things made in a group and set to a gropu sometimes
Dianne Mechanique: well ther can be an object made by me
Prokofy Neva: you end up endlessly trying to sell the thing to yourself for $0
Dianne Mechanique: and owned by her and neitherr of us can edit it - that is just nuts
Prokofy Neva: well is that a feature or a bug? Daniel?
Dianne Mechanique: hehe
Prokofy Neva: I thought it was just the thing was borked.
Roseann Flora: will we have a update on whats going on in this group when you know more of what is going to happen?
Daniel Linden: That does sound like a bug....
Daniel Linden: ...I don't believe I've heard of that before.
Roseann Flora: because we wanted to know more on tools...and your saying this will not be a mainland thing?
Robin Linden: we're going to take this feedback and further develop the design and work out what's possible with the developer resources we have
Prokofy Neva: well I've been walking this through quite a bit to try to trap it, it never shows up when I try to find it but it is out there when you don't want it.
Robin Linden: then I can give you a better idea of what to expect
Kat Lemieux: It happens all the time, Daniel
Prokofy Neva: Yes it does indeed happen.
Kat Lemieux: Deed something to group, and nobody can edit it
Prokofy Neva: You cannot even edit your very own object let along the other group
Dianne Mechanique: the first stage sounds very good
Dianne Mechanique: very promising
Kat Lemieux: Instead, I share with group
Heaven Lily: Yes
Prokofy Neva: yes and sometimes then someone can just take it into inventory, I lose houses that way
Heaven Lily: I have lost many of Videos due to this "bug"
Jana Fleming: me too Heaven
Prokofy Neva: me too
Robin Linden: ok - we'll sort that one out with QA
Heaven Lily: And paying over 3k sometimes for these videos
Daniel Linden: Are we moving on to covenants? Is anyone here an Estate Owner?
Heaven Lily: it hurts to loose them
Jana Fleming: i am
Heaven Lily: I own an Island
Robin Linden: if it's a bug I'll try to get it into the queue for a fix. if it's a feature we'll see what it will take to change it
Prokofy Neva: well let's all file bug reports on it assiduously then
Dianne Mechanique: well i thoguht everyone knew that permissions wer borked in that way
Prokofy Neva: I have a whole stand of pictures with all those things buggy
Dianne Mechanique: this is no big secret
Prokofy Neva: yes they are definitely borked that way, and Lidnens even undo the bork sometimes
Prokofy Neva: not sure how but they have
Robin Linden: or send me one email that describes it. it sounds like it's already in our system - I just have to find it
Daniel Linden: OK, a couple of you.
Daniel Linden: Covenants are, in practice, little more than text fields associated with you Estate and Parcels...
Prokofy Neva: Well on the next topic, Daniel, one thing that would be relevant to know, is whether you plan to continue your land glut -- 61 sims in a week, that has got to be a record.
Daniel Linden: ...they provide a way for you to communicate what your Estate is and what Local Standards you'v chosen to put in place.
Dianne Mechanique: yay estates! :)
Prokofy Neva: There will be a huge backwash of land bottoming out all over and it may be hard to make island rentals and value-add like covenants stick when everybody can just go buy land for a song everywhere, which is of course the goal of some people to achieve
Daniel Linden: Covenants will enable to you tell people coming to your Estate what your doing and how they should behave...
Prokofy Neva: Mainland 2.0 and Mainland 3.0 are already making covenants even without any tools fixed or any texts.
Daniel Linden: ...so that they can make informed decisions about visiting, doing business, or buying land on your Estate.
Heaven Lily: Sweet!
Daniel Linden: If you caught that last part...good!
Prokofy Neva: Daniel do you see this as a pop-up? or something that is binding that leads to ejections? how will it work?
Daniel Linden: We're going to enable the proper sale of land on Estate. In the viewer, in the same manner in which it is done on the mainland....
Daniel Linden: ...except for the Linden Lab tier fees!
Prokofy Neva: What is "in the viewer"? on a menu that you control in "about land" you mean?
Pathfinder Linden is offline
Daniel Linden: Combining Estate Land sales with Estate Coventants will allow the Estate Owner to become....
Prokofy Neva: ? you mean the island manager will still collect the tier from land that people can buy and sell?
Daniel Linden: ...in effect....
Daniel Linden: ....the 'Govenor Linden' of their Estate.
Heaven Lily: Sweeeeet!
Dianne Mechanique: wild applause?
Daniel Linden: Within the Covenant, you'll set out your vision and Local Standards....
Daniel Linden: ....those choosing to live in your Estate will agree to abide.
Heaven Lily: One concern I have had about being an Estate owner..
Prokofy Neva: Daniel, could you just walk through that for the dummies here in the cheap seats, so is there a popup? A text spammed at me as I fly in? What's the deal?
Heaven Lily: When you eject someone they really arent ejected....they are tossed into a corner or the SIM
Daniel Linden: Disputes and other issues can be, if you choose, resolved on the Local Level....without the interference of Linden Lab.
Dianne Mechanique: nice stuff :)
Prokofy Neva: Oh dear, I'll bet Akim's Guillotine will start to get more play now.
Daniel Linden: I'd love to show you the UI, and step through the details....
Daniel Linden: ....but they don't yet exist!
Prokofy Neva: Well Daniel, I'd love to hear more about this local disputes thing -- I presume you mean "within the context of the TOS of LL?"
Prokofy Neva: or are these wet countries to your dry country?
Prokofy Neva: *county
Dianne Mechanique: haha
Daniel Linden: The vision is this: Estates should be able to grow into independent, parallel visions of Second Life.
Prokofy Neva: how will you keep them parallel and not perpendicular?
Tateru Nino gave you Help Islanders communicator v2.1 (wear me).
Tateru Nino gave you Communicator Quick Reference.
Daniel Linden: We should give communities the same tools we've used to create our version of Second Life -- the Mainland -- and get out of their way.
Roseann Flora: good to know
Prokofy Neva: You know Daniel before you do that, fix up the Mainland with just a few tiny TOS and CS enforcements on things like the Lazarus Divine signs *cough*.
Roseann Flora: hope it can be done
Prokofy Neva: When will you be taking this mainland where we're sitting offline, Daniel?
Prokofy Neva: crickets
Dianne Mechanique: crickets?
Daniel Linden: The mainland is, in effect, a very large Estate managed by Linden Lab. It's huge and compelling and it's not going anywhere.
Prokofy Neva: well but how can you keep it when it will have a chicken pox of unsold or abandonded land all over it?
Daniel Linden: It's going to continue to grow, and I very much doubt that any 'private' estate will surpass it anytime soon.
Prokofy Neva: You'll probably end up having to lop off some of the most burnt out cases and maybe offer trades?
Dianne Mechanique: it will be a lawless jungle
Dianne Mechanique: and thus interesting to some :)
Sensual Casanova is offline
Dianne Mechanique: hehe
Prokofy Neva: No, my property on it won't be a lawless jungle.
Dianne Mechanique: sorry
Dianne Mechanique: i was assuming you would split off
Prokofy Neva: Nor will my neighbour's properties either for the most par.
Prokofy Neva: No
Dianne Mechanique: no offence Prok
Dianne Mechanique: my visoin only
Prokofy Neva: Nope, I'm going to stay on the mainland until they take it down, which I imagine they'll be forced to do.
Kat Lemieux: Could I jump back to the group issues for a moment? What kind of time scale are we looking at for phase 1?
Robin Linden: We should have something to deploy on the smaller tasks within a month or so. The whole thing will take a few months
Pathfinder Linden is offline
Jana Fleming: And i never heard an answer about number of groups
Kat Lemieux: OK, thanks
Prokofy Neva: Also when you change the mainland tools essentially, do you envision that will impact the business of the private islands?
Robin Linden: Jana I want to increase the number of groups.
Robin Linden: However it's a hit to the database so the question is how many to allow.
Daniel Linden: Which mainland tools, Prokofy?
Robin Linden: I don't think we can allow an infinite number. But perhaps we can allow more, and then above that add them for an additional fee
Prokofy Neva: What about a longer time period before groups disband, and groups made of only 2 people?
Jana Fleming: i made a suggestion on the forum which wasn't wildly popular but i'd be willing to pay for additional groups (a reasonable rate anyway) above teh 15
Prokofy Neva: well I mean most of the new changes to the group tools seem to affect the mainland, not the islands, which already have the estate tools
Robin Linden: Groups of 2 is part of the plan.
Prokofy Neva: so Im' wonderin just how this will impact the model of the private island with the deeded parcels
Dianne Mechanique: if the prmissions were properly addressed
Heaven Lily: I say raise it to 20...then charge if the person wants more groups
Dianne Mechanique: smaller groups would not be as necessary
Daniel Linden: Not at all -- Groups are a great business, social, and organizational tool.
Dianne Mechanique: if i culd effecitvely share my stuff
Dianne Mechanique: with one other person
Prokofy Neva: Yes I'd be happy to pay for more groups too, but then lots of groups are just something that I've worked out as a hack to get around the danger of the holes in the tools.
Dianne Mechanique: the group becomes redundant
Daniel Linden: I suspect the Estate Owners here are as heavily invested in Groups as any other SL'er.
Heaven Lily: Yea
Prokofy Neva: Well Daniel yes, and no, they don't have a hole in their tools enabling officers to sell land out from under them.
Prokofy Neva: so they aren't as driven to worry about this as those of us on the mainland.
Daniel Linden: There are many, many groups that have nothing to do with Land.
Prokofy Neva: When you can fix this, you will have more investment and more jobs for people.
Roseann Flora: also a certain amount of magical nonsensical architecture is of course desired....and will there be a list of what we can have...and will it be on the forums?
Prokofy Neva: YEs Daniel, I know, I have loads of them myself -- for discussions, for games, for exploration, for appreciation of architecture
Prokofy Neva: I realize that, but those aren't the things that need fixing in the same urgent way -- they need the communications fixes more than anything, and you've said you are putting that off to Phase II
Robin Linden: communications fixes are part of phase I
Dianne Mechanique: yes
Kat Lemieux: yay!
Prokofy Neva: oh ok
Dianne Mechanique: thought so
Prokofy Neva: that means things like offline messages, etc
Hamlet Linden is offline
Robin Linden: yes
Robin Linden: and group announcements
Robin Linden: and objects to group
Prokofy Neva: well that's what I mean, the messaging without the fake votes as a hack
Robin Linden: so you can give the group a meeting agenda, for example
Prokofy Neva: that would be great to fix
Dianne Mechanique: neat :)
Robin Linden: yes
Xandi Mars is offline
Michael Fairplay is online
Prokofy Neva: Do you see the current offerings of first land changing when you have these changes?
Robin Linden: There is a lot of experimenting going on right now with first land.
Jazz Gillespie is offline
Prokofy Neva: IN other words, do you have a plan to keep the mainland structure as it is now, with first land, with auctions of new sims, with resident-to-resident sales?
Robin Linden: If you have ideas, or want to participate, let Lauren Linden know
Jeska Linden: We've just about hit the end of our hour...
Daniel Linden: I don't forsee any sudden changes to the world of the Mainland.
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Robin Linden: we are looking at moving to a whole sale model, with reclaimed parcels in the auctions along with some smaller number of single sims
Prokofy Neva: Well if there were an incentive to auction wholesale buyers to get a tier discount or relief if they offer first land for $512, that would start to take care of these periodic shortages
Robin Linden: I'd also like to see mainland owners be able to put their parcels into the auction system
Robin Linden: but that's only a dream at the moment
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Jana Fleming: which of you 3 can take a quick private question about islands?
Prokofy Neva: yes that's an interesting idea
Prokofy Neva: Daniel, if you could come back to the covenants for a moment
Robin Linden: I can Jana
Prokofy Neva: They still sound like merely a notecard, not backed by enforcing tools somehow, except crude ejections.
Prokofy Neva: Also, if you tie covenants to groups, and not land, what does that mean to the stabilization of communities?
Daniel Linden: In a sense, that's what they are....for now.
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Prokofy Neva: there's been some discussion on this -- should they tie to groups of people? or to the land itself? if to the land, would that be right ti impose on future generations?
Dianne Mechanique: im still not sure what they *are* exactly
Daniel Linden: In the bigger picture, they allow Communities to communicate they're goals and Local Standards....
Dianne Mechanique: everywhere i havve lived had a covenant of some sort
Dianne Mechanique: how are these different?
Prokofy Neva: well I could only mention that the way I made Ravenglass at first was to just put out a notecard giver, you fly by, it says "this is residential, please buy if you will keep it that way" -- without ANY way to enforce it and it worked pretty well
Daniel Linden: ....allow Residents to make informed choices about visiting, living , or doing business on these Estate....
Prokofy Neva: Daniel talk to us about your concept of Local Standards.
Daniel Linden: ....and move us much, much closer to independent, parallel, and alternative visions of Second Life.
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Prokofy Neva: Who enforces them? Can they conflict with the TOS? Where can I appeal conflictual local standards? etc
Dianne Mechanique: hmmm
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Prokofy Neva: Let's say I buy a first land square and someone covenants up the whole sim and says "no smoking"
Prokofy Neva: what I'm going to lose my land and my investment because I took out a cig?
Prokofy Neva: you're going to p reside over that?
Daniel Linden: Covenants are an Estate feature.
Dianne Mechanique: smoking is evil
Prokofy Neva: I'm just using that as an example, Dianne.
Prokofy Neva: You can't get cancer in a virtual world so it can hardly be evil.
Dianne Mechanique: sorry fourth meeting today :)
Prokofy Neva: well Daniel you mean covenants only go on private islands?
Daniel Linden: A Local Standard might be 'Prairie-style homes only in Frank Lloyd Wright Land'.
Prokofy Neva: Well I wonder about that, frankly, you couldn't all agree in 3 years here what it means to "build ugly" even though we all know perfectly well what it means LOL.
Prokofy Neva: so now you're going to have 5 people with 10 ways to define "prairie?"
Prokofy Neva: LOL
Daniel Linden: Anyone purchasing land in that Estate would, in buying, agree to that Standard.
Prokofy Neva: Well it does sound fun, I just wonder where the appeal is and the adjudicator
Dianne Mechanique: well if covenants are for islands thoguh
Dianne Mechanique: that already exists
Dianne Mechanique: exactly like taht
Dianne Mechanique: on every island i eve heard of
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Prokofy Neva: Daniel have you ever sat and read the nightly messages on the groups in like Ansheland?
Daniel Linden: I'm not going to define it, the Estate Owners and their community will do that.
Prokofy Neva: people endlessly argue about builds sometimes
Jana Fleming: i think this just makes the covenant visible to all
Prokofy Neva: why 1.5 meters from the property line? if it looks good, could it be 1? or why that yard sale ? etc etc
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Jana Fleming: which isn't a bad thing
Daniel Linden: Yes, Jana.
Dianne Mechanique: formalises it i suppose
Prokofy Neva: Yes this is what people have been saying -- they already have covenants on notecards such as the kind that Anshe or Nexus pass out.
Jeska Linden: I think the whole idea is to give the estate owners better tools to do what they are trying to do - which is allow for local standards.
Prokofy Neva: So you are saying you will merely pop those up automatically in an official way?
Jeska Linden: And be able to enforce them.
Prokofy Neva: Ok let me try asking this one more time.
Prokofy Neva: Can these local standareds violate your TOS?
Daniel Linden: Everyone agress in SL agrees to the Terms of Service in order to access Second Life. This will not change.
Prokofy Neva: Ok so these parallel miniverses can have Local Standards that are a subset of Universal Standards
Prokofy Neva: and could only be like variations on a theme, like let's all have pink houses or let's all live in trees.
Dianne Mechanique: but if the esates are private shouldnt some of the more arbitrary
Robin Linden: the local standards would be a variation on community standards, but not TOS
Dianne Mechanique: culturaly biased aspects of the tos
Dianne Mechanique: be gone?
Prokofy Neva: I'm actually glad to hear you still will enforce the TOS, being a federalist and not a platformer : )
Prokofy Neva: Hmm Robin, they could violate the BIg Six? or?
Daniel Linden: I'm more of a Whig.
Dianne Mechanique: hehe
Prokofy Neva: I could "interfere with the enjoyment of someone's SL" on a private island then?
Prokofy Neva: I've never understand how you really enforce the CS vs. the TOS in the play book anyway but that's a different conversation.
Prokofy Neva: Can you give an example of this vision of the local standards that are "a variation"?
Jeska Linden: Ok, we've gone a little longer than an hour, so we should probably wrap it up.
Prokofy Neva: OK you gave us a lot of information and a lot to chew on, thanks a lot for your patience.
Kat Lemieux: Thanks, all, this has been very encouraging!
Jeska Linden: Thanks for coming out to the meeting :)
Daniel Linden: If you've thoughts, concerns, suggestions....
Dianne Mechanique: yes thank you Lindens :)
Robin Linden: thanks everybody
Daniel Linden: ....please don't be too shy to let me know: [email]Daniel@lindenlab.com[/email]
Dianne Mechanique: looking forward to phase one group changes :))
Jana Fleming: ok yes i do look forward to the changes
Jeska Linden: Also, I'll be posting this in the forums, we set up a space to discuss it here: /261/1.html
Daniel Linden: I'm a good reader, but a poor penpal....lack of response does not imply indifference!
Roseann Flora: ty
Jeska Linden: Thanks again :)
Robin Linden: if you have other ideas or questions about group features, you can also post them on the feature feedback forum under the group discussion