Part 1.Scaling The Instructor Program Meeting Log 4pm 13-June-06

Part 1.

[16:09] Jesse Linden: great to see so many of you here
[16:09] oomska Vilas: warm
[16:09] Jesse Linden: I honestly didnt expect such a turnout
[16:09] Haddock Trenchmouth rezzes
[16:10] Jesse Linden: I want to start by repeating a few things about why we are
doing what we are doing
[16:10] Charlie Lazarno: why have so many seats and not expect them full?
[16:10] Jesse Linden: with regard to educational events support
[16:10] Jesse Linden: when we started the program, there were a handful of instructors
[16:10] Jesse Linden: and a limited number of classes in SL
[16:11] Jesse Linden: easier to keep track of with only 10,000 registered users
[16:11] Jesse Linden: now that we have hundreds of approved instructors inworld
[16:11] Jesse Linden: and 100's of classes going on every month
[16:11] Jesse Linden: the process of Linden Lab accounting becomes a daunting
challenge
[16:12] Jesse Linden: where I think we've reached the point where a new system
needs to be implemented
[16:12] Jesse Linden: to ensure the goals of the program are met
[16:13] Jesse Linden: namely that the overall skill level of our Residents
continues to grow
[16:13] Jesse Linden: and that Linden Lab can continue to support SL eduacation
effectively
[16:13] Jesse Linden: to this end, we've been debating internally
[16:13] Jesse Linden: the best way to move forward
[16:13] Jesse Linden: and make everyone happy
[16:13] Jesse Linden: today I will let you know our thinking on the subject
[16:14] Jesse Linden: and open the floor to your suggestions
[16:14] Jesse Linden: as this is an issue that you all clearly feel passionate about
[16:14] Jesse Linden: im sure we can devise a system that will improve SL skills
for all
[16:14] Molten Magpie: we ain't doing it for the money that's for sure
[16:14] Jesse Linden: there is one simple yet dramatic change
[16:15] Jesse Linden: we think will provied the most scalable system given Linden Lab
[16:15] Aarlon Montagne: the money helps though to pay the costs of living in sl Mr
Molten
[16:15] Jesse Linden: and community resources
[16:15] Jesse Linden: and that is
[16:15] Jesse Linden: we are proposing an educational credit system
[16:15] Wagahai Oddfellow: According to a discussion with Robin a while back,
education funding was supposed to be going away since Lindens were showing favortism
to certain events over other ones - is that what's finally happening?
[16:15] Jesse Linden: whereby new registered usres
[16:15] Jesse Linden: would enter second life with an as yet to be determined
[16:16] Jesse Linden: amount of education credits
[16:16] Jesse Linden: or vouchers
[16:16] Jesse Linden: worth an amount to be determined
[16:16] Jesse Linden: that they can spend on classes
[16:16] Jesse Linden: taught by LL approved instructors
[16:16] Jesse Linden: so in essence we hope to create an educational marketplace
[16:17] Jesse Linden: whereby new users will be the agents
[16:17] Molten Magpie: omg...tthe system that is in the process of destroying
public education in RL?
[16:17] Jesse Linden: for their own education
[16:18] The Sojourner: Jesse, I dont understand.. arent they already the agentsfor
their own education?
[16:18] Jesse Linden: so LL will continue to support instructors in terms of event
listings are making sure classes will
[16:18] Xixao Dannunzio: sounds as if this will be placing a limit on the amount of
education users are able to receive...
[16:18] Jesse Linden: * and
[16:18] Jesse Linden: making sure classes
[16:18] Jesse Linden: are readily available through the finder
[16:18] Jesse Linden: and the UI
[16:19] DaveMongoose Drake: So beyond their 'credits', residents will pay for classes?
[16:19] Carl Metropolitan: Could you explain a bit more how this Voucher System
will work?
[16:19] Izira Kirkorian: so now education will be all about the $$$
[16:19] Xixao Dannunzio: so, if I, an inexperienced user, spend my credits on basic
building classes, then decide to venture into scripting, I'm out of luck...?
[16:19] Jesse Linden: beyond credits yes, it would be up to the users to pay for
classes as they see fit
[16:19] The Sojourner: Are you saying that instead of LInden paying instructors for
teaching, you will pay students and they pay instructors?
[16:19] Jesse Linden: ok
[16:19] Jesse Linden: hold up
[16:20] Jesse Linden: we're gonna use the soapbox system
[16:20] Jesse Linden: so I can answer as many questions as I can
[16:20] The Soapbox: It is Harris Hare's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:20] oomska Vilas: credits.. should you/we focus on something for free for as
long as we can?
[16:20] Jesse Linden: Harris?
[16:20] Jesse Linden: going once?
[16:20] Norton Lazarno: he is speachless
[16:20] Jesse Linden: twice?
[16:20] Jesse Linden: allright
[16:21] The Soapbox: It is Chromal Brodsky's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:21] Jesse Linden: Chromal
[16:21] Jesse Linden: ?
[16:21] Jesse Linden: going once
[16:21] Jesse Linden: twice
[16:21] The Soapbox: It is Huns Valen's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:21] oomska Vilas: it's a wrong time to introduce the concpet
[16:21] Norton Lazarno: were they even here?
[16:21] The Soapbox: It is prak Curie's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:21] Norton Lazarno: its not choosing anyone in this meeting
[16:21] Jesse Linden: ha
[16:22] Jesse Linden: I think the soapbox is backlogged
[16:22] The Sojourner: it is in a different region from me
[16:22] jefferey Heart: Yeah they aren't here.
[16:22] Jesse Linden: apologies
[16:22] Charlie Lazarno: it would help if it was choosing people still in the room!
[16:22] The Soapbox: It is Mac Teazle's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:22] Haddock Trenchmouth: lol
[16:22] Carl Metropolitan: I signed up--it said I had ten people in front of me.
[16:22] The Soapbox: It is Bedpan Unknown's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:22] The Soapbox: It is Lucious Ingraham's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:22] Shirley Marquez: told me 11
[16:22] The Soapbox: It is Contessa Marquez's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:22] Contessa Marquez: Im here
[16:22] jefferey Heart: Contessa is here.
[16:22] Jesse Linden: contessa is here
[16:22] Norton Lazarno: go contesa
[16:22] Xixao Dannunzio: there we are
[16:22] Jesse Linden: yay
[16:22] Carl Metropolitan: Someone here!
[16:22] Contessa Marquez: ughh
[16:22] Contessa Marquez: Im here
[16:22] Jesse Linden: ok we're up to date
[16:22] Contessa Marquez: Okay Im confused
[16:23] Contessa Marquez: How will we Instructors be paid thru LL or thru the
vouchers by the students
[16:23] Rivin Kirkorian: so basically because you cant keep up with the paprwork
you are punishing the teachers and players?
[16:23] Jesse Linden: by the students through the vouchers
[16:23] Jesse Linden: the instructors
[16:23] Contessa Marquez: And not by LL at all
[16:23] Jesse Linden: can redeem the vouchers
[16:23] Jesse Linden: for L$
[16:23] Jesse Linden: via a payment mechanism
[16:23] Contessa Marquez: May I ask how much are we to charge?
[16:24] Contessa Marquez: Is it set
[16:24] Jesse Linden: the educational vouchers would be worth something like $100L
each
[16:24] Jesse Linden: its definitely NOT set
[16:24] Jesse Linden: just an idea
[16:24] Rivin Kirkorian: bad idea
[16:24] Contessa Marquez: so then we would get 100L per student correct
[16:24] Jesse Linden: we'd probably determine the amount based on economic data
[16:25] Jesse Linden: to be roughly equivalent
[16:25] Jesse Linden: to the current amount
[16:25] Molten Magpie: so you're willing to police us and use our service, but no
longer pay for it? I have a question? why should we bother with Linden approval at
all? You're effectively asking us to compete for these vouchers that will run out
within weeks of starting to
[16:25] Molten Magpie: develop their skills at all
[16:25] Jesse Linden: of Lindens flowing into the economy via educational events
support
[16:25] Jesse Linden: ok next up
[16:25] The Soapbox: It is Denise Collingwood's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:25] Jesse Linden: denise is here correct?
[16:25] Molten Magpie: sorry
[16:25] Denise Collingwood: yes, I am here
[16:25] Denise Collingwood: Two questions:
[16:25] Jesse Linden: sure
[16:25] oomska Vilas: you've yet to assertain a critial mass / the tipping point
has not yet happened.. untill then you should contunue to educate
[16:26] Denise Collingwood: I understood this to be a meeting to get input.
[16:26] Denise Collingwood: Can you tell if this is a done deal, or is it a
proposed change and if you are asking for our opinions on this?
[16:26] Denise Collingwood: If so effective when? Should I cancel my 7:30 PM class?
[16:26] Jesse Linden: a proposed change
[16:26] Jesse Linden: not a done deal
[16:26] Denise Collingwood: If not, there any other proposal on the table?
[16:26] First Page: lol
[16:26] Jesse Linden: this would need some development time
[16:26] Denise Collingwood: are there other proposals?
[16:26] Jesse Linden: other proposals are why we are here
[16:26] Rivin Kirkorian: this would need a better proposal
[16:26] Rivin Kirkorian: this is a bad one
[16:26] Jesse Linden: my apologies for making that not clear anough
[16:26] Izira Kirkorian: so you have no other proposals
[16:27] Molten Magpie: feels more like a gas chamber right now ;P (I'm being
melodramatic yes)
[16:27] Carl Metropolitan: They do have others.
[16:27] Molten Magpie: yes jesse, when you came in you mentioned "debating internally"
[16:27] Haddock Trenchmouth: the proposal is: "a new system needs to be made, so
let's come up with one"
[16:27] Jesse Linden: I was expecting we would use this occasion to get some ideas
together
[16:27] Charlie Lazarno: hey mister Zain :)
[16:27] Selaras Partridge: Hey everyone, sorry for the lateness. ISP issues.
[16:27] Charles Coleman: Hi Sel :)
[16:27] oomska Vilas: wait
[16:27] First Page: lol
[16:27] Molten Magpie: hi sel ;P
[16:27] Selaras Partridge: Hey there (:
[16:27] Alix Fauna: Waves to Sel
[16:27] Jesse Linden: the educational credit system makes the most sense to us but
im sure its not the only solution
[16:28] Gypsy Gregoire: hey sel : )
[16:28] The Soapbox: It is Amore Madonna's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:28] Jesse Linden: Amore?
[16:28] Kim Seifert: Hello Sel!!
[16:28] Rivin Kirkorian: I have played these games for some time now,this being the
latest of 10 online games. The WORST thing you can do is revamp a system that is in
effect. this works for oyur players, maybe not for you, but you will make the
players suffer because you
[16:28] Rivin Kirkorian: cant keep track of things
[16:28] DaveMongoose Drake: Could people respect the soapbox, please
[16:29] Rivin Kirkorian: there has to be a better way or you are gonna lose players
for certain
[16:29] Rivin Kirkorian: take a look ar SWG
[16:29] Amore Madonna: I'll pass for now Jesse
[16:29] The Soapbox: It is Carl Metropolitan's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:29] Jesse Linden: carl you are up
[16:29] Carl Metropolitan: Yes
[16:29] Carl Metropolitan: A comment and some questions:
[16:29] Jesse Linden: sure go ahead
[16:29] Carl Metropolitan: Well--since we are embracing the free market here with
open arms and spread legs, I've got to say, sounds great to me--I usually get 10-20
people per class. So I come out ahead--most teachers--well sucks to be you.
[16:30] Carl Metropolitan: I can't help but thinking a "sucks to be you" system
might not be best fro SL though
[16:30] Molten Magpie: rofl
[16:30] First Page: lol
[16:30] Rivin Kirkorian: lol
[16:30] Jesse Linden: why would others not have the same opportunity as you?
[16:30] Carl Metropolitan: Some specific questions, though:
[16:30] First Page nods in agreement with Carl
[16:31] Jeska Linden: I think one thing to remember with this proposed system is
that it with almost 4000 new residents signing up a day, each of them with awareness
and educational credits, it presents a great opprotunity for an education system to
grow.
[16:31] Carl Metropolitan: Will existing users be issued vouchers? Can the
educational vouchers be resold (no transfer)? How many vouchers will each new
resident have?
[16:31] Jesse Linden: yes, Jeska
[16:31] The Soapbox: You are in the queue to speak. There are 13 people ahead of
you after the current speaker has finished.
[16:31] Jeska Linden: If that is the way we go :)
[16:31] Jesse Linden: Carl
[16:31] Jesse Linden: the existing users question is a good one
[16:31] Carl Metropolitan: Also--what happened to the Automated Attendence taker
proposal?
[16:31] Jesse Linden: not sure yet
[16:31] Norton Lazarno: i suppose there wouldnt be a need for 5 students anymore
[16:31] Carl Metropolitan: They need it.
[16:31] Jesse Linden: they would probably not be able to be resold
[16:32] Carl Metropolitan: I know people who have been here a year and still take
classes.
[16:32] Jesse Linden: how many vouchers per resident at signup would have to be
determined
[16:32] Jeska Linden: Perhaps you purchase more? Or trade them?
[16:32] Jesse Linden: autaomated attendence proposal>?
[16:32] Norton Lazarno: we all take each others classes its how we learn as
instructors
[16:32] Jeska Linden: That's a good question Carl :)
[16:32] Carl Metropolitan: It is hard to pass judgement on the system with out more
specifics
[16:32] Rivin Kirkorian: this is not a good idea lol... but sounds like minds are
already made up to me
[16:33] Jesse Linden: lets continue to take questions
[16:33] Carl Metropolitan: A system that works with 10 vouchers per resident--and 5
for existing residents--might work great. but at 1/3 of those numbers might not work
at all
[16:33] Jesse Linden: and suggestions
[16:33] Charlie Lazarno: does the credits come witha expiry date on them?
[16:33] Jesse Linden: anything I cant answer right now
[16:33] Jesse Linden: i will email
[16:33] Jesse Linden: ok next up
[16:33] Jesse Linden: these are all good points
[16:33] Jesse Linden: you are making
[16:34] The Soapbox: It is Shirley Marquez's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:34] Carl Metropolitan: The Automated Attendence Taker was the idea were SL
would create a scripted device that took roll automatically and submitted the class
to LL for approval payment. Sort of like what TeaZers does, but on a SL-wide basis.
[16:34] Jesse Linden: shirley?
[16:34] Shirley Marquez: I"m here -- I'm not going to try to move
[16:34] Shirley Marquez: I see some serious problems with the proposal
[16:34] Carl Metropolitan: I thought it was one of the options unders considration.
[16:34] Jesse Linden: Carl, yes, we are working on that as an interim measure
[16:34] Shirley Marquez: One is a problem that exists with vouchers for education
in RL -- kickback schools
[16:35] Shirley Marquez: I would also expect the amount of spam on the chat
channels for schools to increase seriously, as they try to drum up more students
[16:35] Shirley Marquez: and what about the quality control problem? A student
spends one of his rare vouchers to attend a class, and is disappointed -- what now?
[16:36] Shirley Marquez: that's all for now
[16:36] Jesse Linden: well, I definitely thikn we need some sort of reputation system
[16:36] Molten Magpie nods...and the race to the bottom as far as preparation vs
voucher cost
[16:36] Jeska Linden: I think anything we do create, should have a system of feedback
[16:36] Jeska Linden: yes, what Jesse said :P
[16:36] Jesse Linden: around instructors
[16:36] Jesse Linden: and schools
[16:36] Jesse Linden: we need a way for quality to rise to the top
[16:36] Molten Magpie: well put shirley
[16:37] Jesse Linden: as far as spam goes im not sure what you mean
[16:37] Carl Metropolitan: I can see so many ways for this to be gamed... Not
saying it is a bad idea--just that SL residents have managed to game every other
incentive system LL has ever used.
[16:37] Jesse Linden: and as far as kickbacks goes
[16:37] Shirley Marquez: the message chatter -- Class X starting in 5 minutes, etc
[16:38] Charles Coleman: Hi Sorcs :)
[16:38] Jesse Linden: I think there are always going to be ways to game any system
but I think we can devise a
[16:38] Jesse Linden: way to make it not worth the trouble
[16:38] First Page: to teach?
[16:38] The Soapbox: It is Molten Magpie's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:38] Molten Magpie coughs
[16:38] Duke Scarborough: :snigger:
[16:38] Molten Magpie: yes
[16:39] Jesse Linden: allright Molten, let 'er rip
[16:39] Norton Lazarno: already acheived that me thinks
[16:39] Selaras Partridge: It's always worth the work and effort to teach if
students are learning.
[16:39] First Page: lol
[16:39] Molten Magpie: That is what I'm worried about. A Why bother with Linden
Approval at all? B How big of a headache is it going to be for you to do quality
control to avoid the "race to the bottom"
[16:39] Ipenda Keynes: Well said.
[16:40] Molten Magpie: with multiple schools competing for vouchers limited
[16:40] Alix Fauna: but isn't charging going to create a arena to turn some away
that may wish to learn?
[16:40] Molten Magpie: people can only afford to put in so much prep time,
scripting time, materials and such
[16:40] First Page: *points to the box* for turns :P
[16:40] Molten Magpie: and compete with other LL approved instructors willing to
cut more corners
[16:40] Molten Magpie: to get a share of the vouchers
[16:40] Jesse Linden: well, thats why we need a reputation system
[16:41] First Page: lol
[16:41] Molten Magpie: (not saying anyone cuts them now, just that the competition
will inevitably drive everyone to)
[16:41] Ishkiia Demar: :(
[16:41] Ima Mechanique: look w
[16:42] Molten Magpie: so rather than the system now, what I'm hearing is that you
want cutthroat free market competition ( a proved failing system to educate in rl)
combined with a popularity contest
[16:42] Rivin Kirkorian: the current system isnt brken and works fine... dont
understand why you feel you MUST change everything
[16:42] First Page: *fingers jumpy today*
[16:42] Molten Magpie: and I think it pays for itself
[16:42] Molten Magpie nods to rivin
[16:42] Jesse Linden: what do you imaging would be a better way?
[16:42] Norton Lazarno: do i have to wearing a dress and stockings then to get
students :-)
[16:42] Molten Magpie: why not just automate it?
[16:43] Jesse Linden: the current system is not viable
[16:43] Molten Magpie: the current system
[16:43] Rivin Kirkorian: for who?
[16:43] Rivin Kirkorian: coz its working fine for your players
[16:43] Xixao Dannunzio: the current system works
[16:43] Rivin Kirkorian: who are the important folks here
[16:43] Xixao Dannunzio: it is an inconveniece to LL. That's not to say it's a bad
system...
[16:43] Jesse Linden: plus I think ultimately the overall level of education

PART 2.

[16:44] Molten Magpie: what measure of value are you attributing to the education
that happens in SL today, to call it "not viable"...with automation (I'll grant that
the current payment sytem is crazy)
[16:44] Jesse Linden: rises when students are able to self - select and spend on
classes they choose
[16:44] Molten Magpie: ok that's all I have
[16:44] Jesse Linden: ok next up
[16:44] Charlie Lazarno: omg if this one was a LL employee she would be wondering
who they are laying off!!
[16:44] Jeska Linden: Also, I think we're at a good point to reflect on the system
and how it could be improved, since it's pretty much the same as it was when it
launched. Second Life is a LOT different now, not just in size.
[16:44] The Soapbox: It is Xixao Dannunzio's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:44] Molten Magpie: though I'd love to see some more thought out answers to my
questions
[16:45] Xixao Dannunzio: ok
[16:45] Molten Magpie: I disagree wholely with your last point
[16:45] Lucy Linden: I woulld like to say the current system is taking many many
hours of manual time a day, and isnt going to keep up with the growth of sl, or
within our budget
[16:45] Jesse Linden: email me Molten
[16:45] Xixao Dannunzio: First, a statement.
[16:45] Xixao Dannunzio: If students begin having to pay for classes, I will resign
as Instructor. Knowledge should always be free.
[16:45] Molten Magpie: certainly
[16:45] Rivin Kirkorian: stop trying to change things for the players, take a look
at what sony did, i am not even joking, you are headed down that road by doing
this... and its a shame
[16:45] Xixao Dannunzio: Users should not be charged to learn to make full use of a
game created by someone else. That's like selling a product, then making them buy
the instruction manual seperately...
[16:45] Xixao Dannunzio: I consider Instructors to be a sort of 'hired help' to
teach users how to use LL's product. I have RL employees who do this for the
websites I develop, and I don't make y clints pay them. That's my responsibility...
[16:45] Izira Kirkorian nods in agreement with Xixao
[16:46] Jesse Linden: i see it a bit differently in that
[16:46] Molten Magpie: for a buck and a quarter an hour you have all of us busting ass
[16:46] Opal Dalgleish: *agress with Cixai*
[16:46] Molten Magpie: now you'retelling us that w're not viable
[16:46] Xixao Dannunzio: Next, two questions:
[16:46] Jesse Linden: they are given vouchers to spend as they choose
[16:46] Xixao Dannunzio: What's to stop students from just 'dropping in' and
gainging the instruction without paying?
[16:47] Molten Magpie: what you should do is give us, this group, the active
educators, all of us here, more control, not less, trust us a little more, cuz we've
earned it
[16:47] Norton Lazarno: Ultimately the students will go to the longest class for
their voucher so we will end up teaching longer for less
[16:47] Jesse Linden: how would you like to see the system evolve?
[16:48] Remi Orman: WHY exactly does the system need to change?
[16:48] Rivin Kirkorian: it doesnt need evolving
[16:48] Xixao Dannunzio: How can you charge for additional education, as SL is
constantly growing, and intoducing new features that need teaching (local lighting,
flexis, etc)? Are they to just fend for themselves when buying more vouchers is not
an option for them?
[16:48] Duke Scarborough: automate the current one?
[16:48] Xixao Dannunzio: second,
[16:48] Daul Callisto: We'd like to see the system evolve in a way that does not
devalue instructors.
[16:48] Duke Scarborough: Sorry ;MMMMph
[16:48] Rivin Kirkorian: you need to hire more ppl to help you in RL or automate
[16:48] Molten Magpie: automate the current one
[16:48] Molten Magpie: or give us more control
[16:48] Xixao Dannunzio: From all I've heard so far, this system would be a total
failure, and education in SL will no longer be effective.
[16:48] Rivin Kirkorian agrees with Xixao
[16:48] Jesse Linden: we are going to automate the payment mechanisms regardless
[16:48] Xixao Dannunzio: Users should not have to pay to cover LL's lack of staff
[16:48] Molten Magpie: dead a few weeks after it would be put in place
[16:49] Jesse Linden: as lucy is clearly overwhelmed
[16:49] Ishkiia Demar things we should respect the soap box
[16:49] Jesse Linden: but
[16:49] Jeska Linden: Ok, let's talk more about how we can scale then...
[16:49] Rivin Kirkorian: then hire someone to help Lucy
[16:49] Jesse Linden: the system of individual course and instructor approval
[16:49] Rivin Kirkorian: but we shouldnt have to pay for this
[16:49] Haddock Trenchmouth SOAPBOX PLS
[16:49] First Page: lol
[16:49] Jeska Linden: So what happens when there are 100 times as many Residents?
[16:49] Jesse Linden: is not working
[16:49] Jeska Linden: We have 100 people processing education?
[16:49] Carl Metropolitan: If we have abandoned the soapbox order, I have a few
points.
[16:49] Jeska Linden: That seems silly...
[16:49] First Page: why not ask us
[16:49] Xixao Dannunzio: why not hire additional help, rather than make users pay
for your shortage of bodies?
[16:49] First Page: we are the 100x the instuctors
[16:49] Jeska Linden: *nods*
[16:50] Jeska Linden: That's why we're here :)
[16:50] Haddock Trenchmouth is patiently waiting HIS turn...
[16:50] Jesse Linden: exactly
[16:50] Jesse Linden: OK
[16:50] Jesse Linden: BACK TO THE SOAPBOX
[16:50] jefferey Heart: Wating turn as well.
[16:50] First Page: with a plan in place
[16:50] The Soapbox: It is Zany Golem's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:50] First Page: ok
[16:50] Xixao Dannunzio: ok wait
[16:50] Xixao Dannunzio: stop
[16:50] Molten Magpie: offer sel and first and Zany and some others honorary linden
titles, and pay them a real tier to offset their costs
[16:50] Xixao Dannunzio: youpassed mye by entirely
[16:50] Molten Magpie: or give educators their own last name
[16:50] Xixao Dannunzio: I asked two questions on the soapbox
[16:50] Xixao Dannunzio: you have yet to answer either
[16:50] Zany Golem giggles molten
[16:51] First Page: Xixao.. lol
[16:51] Molten Magpie: some real way to offset land costs, not token game vouchers
[16:51] Lucy Linden: what doesnt get answered now will in emails
[16:51] Jesse Linden: we were thinking that the voucher supply would be limited
[16:51] Lucy Linden: lets move the soapbox along please
[16:51] Jesse Linden: and we would need to find a way to prevent unwanted auditing
of classes
[16:51] Jesse Linden: Xixao
[16:52] Xixao Dannunzio: ok
[16:52] First Page: if you are not sponsoring them you would have no contorl
[16:52] First Page: would you?
[16:52] First Page: sound s like a place for the best salesman not education
[16:52] Xixao Dannunzio: and my second question was, how can you charge users to
learn new features that you introduce as updates?
[16:53] Jesse Linden: zany has the floor no?
[16:53] Norton Lazarno: new vouchers each upate?
[16:53] Jesse Linden: Xixao, not sure what the answer is to that
[16:53] Xixao Dannunzio: fair enough
[16:53] Xixao Dannunzio: thank you
[16:53] Zany Golem: yes i was waiting for xixao to get answers from xixao's turn
[16:53] The Soapbox: Opal Dalgleish is on the soapbox now!
[16:53] Zany Golem: :)
[16:53] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[16:53] Jesse Linden: the whole point is not less work
[16:53] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[16:53] Charlie Lazarno: sos there going to be a new update each day?
[16:53] Jesse Linden: for us
[16:53] The Soapbox: The soapbox is now free
[16:53] The Soapbox: Shhh...
[16:53] Jesse Linden: but empowering residents and educators
[16:54] Jesse Linden: if you think there are better ways to do that
[16:54] Jesse Linden: we're listening
[16:54] The Sojourner: Hurry .. I want my turn..lol
[16:54] Zany Golem: will there still be a minimum required attendance for classes?
[16:54] Jesse Linden: not sure, zany
[16:54] First Page: *coughs*
[16:54] Zany Golem: will a transcript of this meeting be posted for those that were
unable to make it?
[16:55] Jesse Linden: sure
[16:55] The Soapbox: It is Wagahai Oddfellow's turn to speak, please take the floor
[16:55] Wagahai Oddfellow: (2Qs) According to a conversation with Robin, the money
to those who hold classes was to be cut since it was "Lindens deciding that
educational content was worth more to SL than other events" - is that part of this?
..or is that just the future plan?
[16:55] Wagahai Oddfellow: [This was part of a discussion by "Content Developers"
started by bladyblue a while back - issue being since DI has gone, what content is
"rewardable" by Linden Labs at this point and why 1 more than another?]
[16:55] Wagahai Oddfellow: (example being - is educating someone about building a
waterfall more important to SL than yadni's newbie yard?)
[16:55] Zany Golem: will vouchers be a tangeable item in sl? or some form of
virtual system
[16:55] Jesse Linden: no plans to cut any Linden educational event support
[16:55] Wagahai Oddfellow: 2nd question: Can credits be redeemed by anyone? (ie: if
I decided to start educating users, would I have to go through a process to prove I
have a clue and can teach?)
[16:56] Zany Golem guesses her turn is over and goes back in the queue
[16:56] Victoria Jacques: ty :)
[16:56] Jesse Linden: sorry wagahai i dont understand your second question
[16:57] Wagahai Oddfellow: sorry, will re-type - I'm not currently an instructor
[16:57] Xixao Dannunzio: First Page, I'm sorry, but my TUi application will not be
turned in until I know that his change will not take place. If it does, expect my
resignation instead...
[16:57] Wagahai Oddfellow: ..if I decided to start down that path and instructed
users (ie: I do teach people anyway)
[16:57] Wagahai Oddfellow: ..can they give me their vouchers, will they be worth
anything to me?)
[16:57] Jeska Linden: I think the thing we should all remember, is that this is
just a discussion - nothing has been designed/coded yet.
[16:58] Duke Scarborough relief sighs
[16:58] Jesse Linden: yes under this system you could redeem vouchers for L$
[16:58] Wagahai Oddfellow will have to poke Robin about the 1st part - kinda
annoyed that ehlping users != education unless there's a "formal class" - 1 being
worth $100L per user the other not
[16:58] Wagahai Oddfellow: thanks, i'm done ;)
[16:58] Jesse Linden: ok I think I skipped
[16:58] First Page: tui is a seperate educational system then TU tu =linden support
Xixao ^.^ TUi is not
[16:58] Jesse Linden: opal
[16:59] Jesse Linden: Opal Dalgleish
[16:59] Opal Dalgleish: ok im here
[16:59] Jesse Linden: you're up
[16:59] Opal Dalgleish: If the reason for changing the system is due to the amount
of record keeping involved.
[16:59] First Page: lol
[16:59] Opal Dalgleish: and you say you want isntruction to keep pace with
residents needs.
[16:59] Jesse Linden: no, that's not the primary reason
[16:59] Xixao Dannunzio: just a heads-up, First ;)
[16:59] Random Boyoma: I'm glad I got a ample notice for this meeting
[16:59] Opal Dalgleish: then have your voucher system but make the crdits unlimed
for everyone but only for preappoved type classes - that way our needs are
addressed.
[16:59] Opal Dalgleish: the instructors can still control what level they teach and
when then teach - and only approved classes intructed by apporved instructors get
paid.
[17:00] Random Boyoma: so why are we here?
[17:00] Opal Dalgleish: old or new folks can use the education classes when they
want to
[17:00] Jesse Linden: originally we were thinking of setting up a core curriculum
[17:00] Jesse Linden: of SL approved classes
[17:00] Jesse Linden: that we would credite
[17:00] Jesse Linden: but I dont think thats a good idea
[17:00] Opal Dalgleish: why not?
[17:00] Jesse Linden: and would be stifling for you
[17:00] Norton Lazarno: and this is?
[17:01] Xixao Dannunzio: I have another question... what conqequences would there
be for offering classes without a voucher exchange (given for free)? Any?
[17:01] Opal Dalgleish: all our classes are currently preappoved at teazers
[17:01] Jesse Linden: we don't necessarily want a world of builders
[17:01] Opal Dalgleish: it' works very well
[17:01] Jesse Linden: there are so many other SL skills
[17:01] Jesse Linden: that are hard to categorize
[17:01] Jesse Linden: but equally valuable
[17:01] Random Boyoma: like ?
[17:01] Myria Myriam: thanks
[17:01] Jesse Linden: we thought it better to take class approval out of the equation
[17:02] Opal Dalgleish: I don't think your listening to us- you just here to tell
us why our idean won't work
[17:02] Jesse Linden: decide
[17:02] Jesse Linden: and let students
[17:02] Jesse Linden: let students decide
[17:02] Help Island Communicator Update Server - Server #1 - v1.2: Sending item
Help Islanders communicator v2.10 (wear me)
[17:02] Opal Dalgleish: make the credits unlimited
[17:02] Tashie Oddfellow: who's to decide what's an important class or not ?
Teazers :) i think many ppl hold classes that dont get paid anyway - this system
sounds promising
[17:02] Jesse Linden: ok Opal
[17:02] Barbarra Blair: I think I missed the proposal
[17:02] Jesse Linden: we'll take that into consideration
[17:02] Opal Dalgleish: can only be used at appoved places with appoved teachers
[17:02] Random Boyoma: I know I mised it
[17:02] Xixao Dannunzio: I have made 1.2k since sitting dwn here. I make far more
during my idle time than I do in class. Money is not important. Would I be punished
for not abiding by this pay-for-classes system?
[17:02] Opal Dalgleish: make the classes have set amount that can be spent on the
classes
[17:03] Norton Lazarno: they dont have the BUDGET - its a cost cutting exercise
[17:03] Molten Magpie: I like Opal's idea
[17:03] Diamondback Deckard: wow full house
[17:03] Jesse Linden: no of course not Xixao
[17:03] Barbarra Blair: Is there a copy of the proosal here?
[17:03] Molten Magpie: still have the 2 class per day limit
[17:03] Duke Scarborough: Printing money costs nothing Norton
[17:03] Molten Magpie: per instructor
[17:03] Xixao Dannunzio: ok then
[17:03] Molten Magpie: ya'll are still in control
[17:03] Rivin Kirkorian: I have to go in rL, but will sit and lsiten, so I will
miss my turn, but i have to say- and keep on saying- this is a VERY BAD IDEA, try a
new proposal and stop trying to press this, you are not convincing anyone that they
like this- go back to the
[17:03] Rivin Kirkorian: drawing table
[17:03] Derik Draper: what is the proposal
[17:03] Jesse Linden: ok next up
[17:03] Rivin Kirkorian: bye all
[17:03] The Soapbox: It is Tryggvi Olafson's turn to speak, please take the floor
[17:03] Barbarra Blair: Is there a notecard somewhere????
[17:03] Molten Magpie: if jesse is willing to admit that ( budgetary constraints)
we can have that discussion
[17:03] Tryggvi Olafson: i only have one thing
[17:04] Random Boyoma: can you repeat the proposal for thos of us that didn't know
about this please?
[17:04] Xixao Dannunzio: Derik, they want users to pay for classes using vouchers
[17:04] Random Boyoma: why?
[17:04] Xixao Dannunzio: that's the short version
[17:04] Barbarra Blair: huh???
[17:04] Derander Witte: Woah, thats icky
[17:04] DaveMongoose Drake: Can we stick to the soapbox, please
[17:04] jefferey Heart: Yes Soapbox Please.
[17:04] Barbarra Blair: I don't understand--
[17:04] Haddock Trenchmouth: touch soapbox, barbarra and random
[17:05] Barbarra Blair: I have nothing to say because I don't understand
[17:05] Tryggvi Olafson: i'd like to ask a moment of silence for my art history
deparmtnt. I heard it die at the beginning of ther meeting.
[17:05] Jesse Linden: it seems to me there would be so much more opportunity this way
[17:05] First Page: hahah Trygg
[17:05] jefferey Heart: hahaha
[17:05] Myria Myriam: what is soapbox?
[17:05] First Page: *shakes head*
[17:05] Tryggvi Olafson: who's joking?
[17:05] First Page: x.x
[17:05] Jesse Linden: Trygg
[17:05] Jesse Linden: do you have a question
[17:05] Myria Myriam: nvm found it
[17:05] Jesse Linden: allright im going to move on then
[17:05] Molten Magpie: ohh trygg
[17:05] Tryggvi Olafson: i said my piece
[17:05] Molten Magpie: it's not there yet
[17:05] The Soapbox: It is The Sojourner's turn to speak, please take the floor
[17:06] The Sojourner: I have a number o concerns about this proposal and woul like
to ask to be on any work groups that are formed. 1. I dont understand the student
sel-select feature. They already select the classes they attend and where.
[17:06] Jesse Linden: Soj
[17:06] The Sojourner: so that part doesnt make sense to me
[17:06] Multi Gadget v1.45.4 by Timeless Prototype
[17:06] Jesse Linden: imagine you are a new reident
[17:06] Jesse Linden: and you have all these class credits in your inventory
[17:06] Jesse Linden: you are more likely to want to go and use them
[17:06] Jesse Linden: no?
[17:07] Opal Dalgleish: and no lidens so yor first thought is can I sell them!
[17:07] Random Boyoma: no
[17:07] First Page: so long as you certian what they are..
[17:07] Duke Scarborough: Not if they're limited supply
[17:07] Diamondback Deckard: I'd have to say no also
[17:07] Remi Orman: or trade them for xcite parts
[17:07] The Sojourner: 2. It seems like this is turning education into a business
model.. most educators do not like to "sell".
[17:07] Jesse Linden: that would be our challenge, First
[17:07] Derander Witte: Lol remi
[17:07] Barbarra Blair: But then you can't take classes if you run out, so that is
terrible
[17:07] Maxx Mackenzie: ding!
[17:07] First Page: and certian that you are using them correctly
[17:07] The Sojourner: I wouldnt , Jesse, because learning is driven by need , not
credits
[17:07] First Page: *waits for turn*
[17:07] First Page nods in total agreement
[17:08] Jesse Linden: there would be nothing stopping you from teaching
[17:08] Opal Dalgleish: people take clases becuase they are free and are not
limited by how many they can take
[17:08] Jesse Linden: all im talking about here is what form Linden Lab subsidies
[17:08] Jesse Linden: for education might take
[17:08] Steev Sprocket: Then students wouldn go to the little fun classes though
because they wouldnt wantto waste a credit
[17:08] The Sojourner: The thing is.. whoever is established and has good
advertising skills is going to get the studetns.. It will work against the
independent and small tehaching groups.
[17:08] Jesse Linden: the rest would be completely up to you
[17:08] First Page: (no guarantee for student to spend there credit would stop some)
[17:08] Tashie Oddfellow: they will still be free, their voucher is worthless to
them it's only value is to the redeeming educator
[17:08] Diamondback Deckard: not the point people may stop comming to classes
because they think they have to buy more class credits
[17:08] Norton Lazarno: it will be the GUN classes that wil get all the vouchers
[17:08] Random Boyoma: I don't see the motivation for this
[17:08] Barbarra Blair: right
[17:09] Barbarra Blair: no more students
[17:09] The Sojourner: Esp. since some people whould have the word of mouth
advantatge from HI etc. while others wouldnt
[17:09] Jesse Linden: any other questions Soj?
[17:09] First Page: *makes note for new gun classes*
[17:09] Steev Sprocket: more competition
[17:09] Jesse Linden: we'd have to devise
[17:09] The Sojourner: Would you consider putting a list of educaitonal groups
together for all students?
[17:09] Jesse Linden: a fair and equitable repuation system
[17:09] The Sojourner: yes
[17:09] Jesse Linden: and class listings
[17:09] Jesse Linden: yes
[17:09] The Sojourner: typing as fast as I can
[17:09] Jesse Linden: soj
[17:09] The Sojourner: 3.
[17:09] Barbarra Blair: there is not reptuaion system
[17:09] Jesse Linden: we might even create a separate Finder tab
[17:09] Diamondback Deckard: I'd like to see a classes tab in find
[17:10] Jesse Linden: for approved Instructor listings
[17:10] Sabine Stonebender: as in a teaching rating?
[17:10] The Sojourner: The reputation system ... may be difficult to manage
[17:10] Tashie Oddfellow: why should instructors have to be "approved" many people
teach classes that aren't approved
[17:10] Barbarra Blair: would be gamed
[17:10] The Sojourner: when some groups have many teachers and others have few
[17:10] Steev Sprocket: I like the seperate tab idea though
[17:10] First Page: lol Rating system.. ( bad rating too ?)
[17:10] Opal Dalgleish: if this new system won't goin till they find a good rep
system - thenwe have notheing toworry about - that wil take forever.
[17:10] Random Boyoma: kinda like congress..good ideas mixed with the bad
[17:10] The Sojourner: 4. I cant type fast enough..lol
[17:11] Jesse Linden: ok, other questions Soj?
[17:11] Jesse Linden: need to move along
[17:11] The Sojourner: Could LL use the old system for beginning classes and nte
new system for advanced classes?
[17:11] Forseti Svarog: hmm interesting point soj
[17:11] Jesse Linden: could be a possibility
[17:11] First Page: woot that was my questions :P
[17:11] The Sojourner: And just a note, education will always go on regardless of
payment if the system breaks down
[17:12] Jesse Linden: ok next up
[17:12] Derander Witte agree
[17:12] The Soapbox: It is Callipygian Christensen's turn to speak, please take the
floor
[17:12] Diamondback Deckard: Whats a grading system going to buy anyone? Whats the
objective?
[17:12] Barbarra Blair: how would LL know which was which????
[17:12] Diamondback Deckard: If I dont like the teacher I just leave
[17:12] Callipygian Christensen: First, I sympathize with the need to stem the flow
of 200, 000L into the economy per week, but think there must be a more beneficial
way of doing so.
[17:12] The Sojourner: ok.. I will sit down now
[17:12] The Sojourner: :D
[17:12] Callipygian Christensen: (I am not moving in this lag)
[17:12] First Page: ^.^ Soj
[17:12] Callipygian Christensen: Vouchers in the hands of new people, and a ranking
system also, means very little..
[17:13] Diamondback Deckard: I disagree with Callipygian
[17:13] Molten Magpie utters one emphatic Hazaa to punctuate Sojourners points.
[17:13] Callipygian Christensen: new and vulnerable comes to mind..
[17:13] Xixao Dannunzio totally agrees
[17:13] Ima Mechanique: new and niave, therefore gullible comes to my mind
[17:13] Carl Metropolitan: Two words: Camping Classes
[17:13] Random Boyoma: heh
[17:13] First Page: haha Carl
[17:13] Duke Scarborough: UGH!
[17:13] Callipygian Christensen: If you *mus* make change, this is a sytem that I
think will cause you more headaches...
[17:13] Barbarra Blair: precisely
[17:13] Xixao Dannunzio: this opens the doors for new scams, etc
[17:13] Random Boyoma: agreed
[17:13] Callipygian Christensen: you are pitting educators against each other..
[17:13] Diamondback Deckard: agreed
[17:14] Barbarra Blair: pitting educators against scam artists
[17:14] Steev Sprocket: yeah
[17:14] Callipygian Christensen: you will have students who want refunds..
[17:14] First Page nods with Calli
[17:14] Jesse Linden: what would you suggest as an alternative ?
[17:14] Steev Sprocket: the whole voucher thing
[17:14] First Page: says *may the best man *coughs* woman win
[17:14] Ima Mechanique: Not ewducators against each other. Educators against con
artists too
[17:14] Callipygian Christensen: you will have sutdents who have no vouchers..so
will be tuaght anyway...
[17:14] Opal Dalgleish: I"ll pay you 50l to come to my class and spend your
vouchers at - (voucher worth much more then 50L but the new person doesn't have any
other way of getting L$ so they do it.
[17:14] Random Boyoma: *puts up dukes*
[17:14] Diamondback Deckard: You'd be better served with the Find Tab and maybe a
classes billboard in the welcome areas
[17:14] Daul Callisto is already sacnning the room for her best voucher competition
[17:14] Callipygian Christensen: and then others will want *their* voucchers back..
[17:14] Callipygian Christensen: since Joe got it free..
[17:15] Remi Orman foresees Bubba Gump's College - slotmachines, dancers &
prizeballs!!!
[17:15] Xixao Dannunzio: my alternative? Don't try to fix what's not broken...
[17:15] Molten Magpie writes down the voucher black market idea for future reference
[17:15] Jesse Linden: well, the same checks and balances that exist
[17:15] Callipygian Christensen: Any change to the system has to be one that
supports education, doesnt add work for LL, and makes it *easy* for tudents to
learn..I dont see lall of that in this
[17:15] Jesse Linden: currently
[17:15] Callipygian Christensen: so my question...
[17:15] First Page: lol molten
[17:15] Jesse Linden: as in no ads
[17:15] nimrod Yaffle: (What about creating alts to get vouchers?)
[17:15] Jesse Linden: in the classroom etc
[17:15] Jesse Linden: would apply
[17:15] Callipygian Christensen: what form do you want outr submissions of better
ideas in???
[17:15] First Page: good idea nimrod
[17:16] Random Boyoma: her her!
[17:16] Ishkiia Demar: Thank you for the opportunity to hear what is on your minds
.. but Ithink the productivity of this meeting is out the door .. and I have
posponed a class for this .. my priority is my students so will tke my leave for
now. I will correspond via email.
[17:16] Barbarra Blair: what classroom ???
[17:16] Random Boyoma: here here even
[17:16] Third Birthday Schedule: Total signs 94
[17:16] Barbarra Blair: I think this whole discussion is just way over my head.
[17:16] Jesse Linden: Callipygian, lets find a way to continue this dialog and get
as many suggestions on the table as possible
[17:17] Jesse Linden: one way to start is collecting them on the instructor forums
[17:17] jefferey Heart: Tried that.
[17:17] Carl Metropolitan: I have an alternative proposal--I was waiting for my
turn in the soapbox line--but if we are getting ready to go--I want to make it...
[17:17] Jesse Linden: where you have the space to write out your ideas
[17:17] Sabine Stonebender: dedicated classroom sims?
[17:17] Jesse Linden: its getting to that time
[17:17] Haddock Trenchmouth: arg
[17:17] jefferey Heart: Still waiting turn on soapbox
[17:17] Carl Metropolitan: Okay
[17:17] Jesse Linden: where we are going to have to end the meeting
[17:17] Jesse Linden: ill take a few more
[17:17] The Soapbox: It is DaveMongoose Drake's turn to speak, please take the floor

PART 3.

[17:18] Barbarra Blair: I I teach it has to me on my own land
[17:18] Jesse Linden: Dave?
[17:18] Jesse Linden: are you up>?
[17:18] DaveMongoose Drake: question and a comment-
[17:18] Jesse Linden: ok
[17:18] Random Boyoma: well jesse just look around at tehe rsesonse to this and
don't just write it off
[17:18] DaveMongoose Drake: 1) How will this be policed- What is to stop
multi-abuse: signing up for new basic accounts for more credits? And how do you
propose we prevent people from attending if they haven't paid?
[17:19] Barbarra Blair: And why restrict the number of classes people can go to???
[17:19] Jesse Linden: not sure yet, those are components of the design that would
need to be worked out
[17:19] DaveMongoose Drake: 2) This is an economics point- Education is a merit
good, meaning the demand for it is less than it's value.
[17:19] DaveMongoose Drake: This is why state funding exists for education in RL.
[17:19] Lucy Linden: remember thes will bee answer in email
[17:19] DaveMongoose Drake: Once out of vouchers, what student will honestly choose
to pay 100L for a class?
[17:19] First Page: lots dave
[17:19] Tryggvi Olafson: pfft
[17:20] Lucy Linden: who is next for Q. lets get some Q out to be later answered
[17:20] First Page: ye of little faith :P
[17:20] bladyblue Bommerang: not lots page
[17:20] First Page: lol
[17:20] Barbarra Blair: the box seems to not be working
[17:20] bladyblue Bommerang: F1
[17:20] Jesse Linden: I ok a few more
[17:20] Haddock Trenchmouth: ;_;
[17:20] Carl Metropolitan: Okay
[17:20] First Page: sure for beginners once they learn how to use it :P
[17:20] Derik Draper: so in other words we are doing this voucher thing whether we
like it or not my only question is when did teaching become business
[17:20] Carl Metropolitan: Let me propose an alternative proposal: Automated
Attendence Taker (AAT)--counts attendees, taking multiple "snapshots" during hour to
average. Pays either lump sum or per attendee.
[17:20] The Soapbox: It is Daul Callisto's turn to speak, please take the floor
[17:20] Carl Metropolitan: System would be tied into "Events" calender. To be paid,
must be posted in Events and have an AAT report.
[17:20] Daul Callisto: I'm here don't skip me
[17:20] First Page: dual ^.^
[17:20] Carl Metropolitan: When you set "education" event you are in the system.
Only LL-certified instructors get AAT boxes (no transfer/no mod), and the boxes only
work for them. AAT pays automatically when class is over.
[17:21] Haddock Trenchmouth: Carl SHH
[17:21] bladyblue Bommerang: push f! no learning curve
[17:21] Jesse Linden: ok
[17:21] Jesse Linden: Daul
[17:21] Carl Metropolitan: No Linden involvement for normal operations. Audit
classes on a spot-check basis. AATs could even be configured to randomly "record"
some classes for later review. Or you could appoint "ResMods" for education.
[17:21] Jesse Linden: go ahead
[17:21] The Sojourner: I gues in order to create a new proposal, we need to know
why teh current system does no work other than 1) number of instructors 2)
non-automated recording
[17:21] Carl Metropolitan: If something like the AAT is going to be coded anyway as
a stopgap, why not go all the way. I know scripting costs money--perhaps you could
take advantage of the scripting talent among the instructors and outsource the
development to residents.
[17:21] Daul Callisto: What is LL's situation in that the current system is not
working? I thought this revamp had to do with verifying wether students actually
benefitted from what we taught, but the system you've proposed sounds more like you
think you are wasting..
[17:21] Random Boyoma: hmm...seems like they want more control over it to me
[17:21] Maxx Mackenzie claps Carl's proposal
[17:21] Daul Callisto: money on instructors no matter what. Can you just clarify to
us where you are coming from, and what your goal actually is?
[17:22] Barbarra Blair: sounds like they just want to automate
[17:22] Xixao Dannunzio: my observation here: an "open" discussion in which our
feedback is clearly negative, yet seems to be ignored, in a system that apparently
has already had too much thought go into it to make argument worthwhil...
[17:22] Jesse Linden: as I've said earlier the goal here is to improve the overall
level of education
[17:22] Jesse Linden: inspire more classes
[17:22] Jesse Linden: and pair up new residents with great instructors
[17:22] Daul Callisto: more then the 100's of classes Teazers alone offers?
[17:22] bladyblue Bommerang: Teazers inspired more classes
[17:22] Barbarra Blair: by lmiiting the number of students???
[17:23] Darcy Rutledge: seems you are wanting to make more difficult for
instructors to teach
[17:23] bladyblue Bommerang: thats why you recruited so many instructors
[17:23] Steev Sprocket: this will cut down the number of classes
[17:23] Random Boyoma: b y not listenign to your instructors?
[17:23] Jesse Linden: Teazers is great
[17:23] Darcy Rutledge: and limit classes over all
[17:23] Jesse Linden: one group
[17:23] Rocinante Mandelbrot: Or limiting the number of classes a new student can
afford to take
[17:23] Molten Magpie: lol
[17:23] Steev Sprocket: nobody willw ant to teach a class if they think a student
wouldnt waste a voucher on
[17:23] Jesse Linden: we're trying to expand the program
[17:23] Daul Callisto: With vouchers you will be cutting down on classes, we will
only teach the uber popular ones...
[17:23] bladyblue Bommerang: LL partnered with Teazrs to recruit all these folks
[17:23] Steev Sprocket: exactly
[17:23] Jesse Linden: without breaking our backs
[17:23] Barbarra Blair: on the other hand would make it easy to offer NEW classes.
[17:23] bladyblue Bommerang: then they are being dismissed
[17:23] Jesse Linden: ok
[17:23] bladyblue Bommerang: very odd
[17:23] Jesse Linden: next speaker
[17:23] First Page: but is not a RL education.. so lacks the interest of your time
or enegry
[17:23] Barbarra Blair: so that part I like
[17:23] The Soapbox: It is Contessa Marquez's turn to speak, please take the floor
[17:23] First Page: it seems
[17:24] Contessa Marquez: Will we be able to purchase extra vouchers? If they cant
then that wont be good. We Instructors still enjoy taking classes and learning.
Maybe a certain number of vouchers should be given each week then like Lindens are.
And anything extra purchased. Als
[17:24] First Page: or investment
[17:24] Daul Callisto: You kind of blew me off....
[17:24] Contessa Marquez: Also need to be a no copy no mod but definately
transferable.
[17:24] First Page: lol Dual
[17:24] Contessa Marquez: I mean I have seen lots play games and waste Lindens on
games so id they are serious to learn then it would be an investment to them as in
any regular private school. BUT vouchers MUST be available to purchase extra ones.
[17:24] Daul Callisto: but that's ok... *sings I wil survive*
[17:24] First Page: o.O
[17:24] First Page: yes we will :P
[17:24] Tateru Nino: Sorry, Daul. Our peers were too rude.
[17:24] Jesse Linden: everyone
[17:24] Jesse Linden: shush
[17:25] Malaki Damone: Question Jesse: Will we be expected to turn away new players
who don't understand, but can't afford to pay?
[17:25] Jesse Linden: good points conteessa
[17:25] Daul Callisto: I was looking for an honest what the heck do you want from
us answer? How can we come up with an alternative if you don't tell us specifics?
[17:25] Contessa Marquez: We have to be able to buy more vouchers
[17:25] Derik Draper: yep I can see this is a waste of time LL has made the
decision and no matter what we say these vouchers will come it is the future of
teaching
[17:25] Contessa Marquez: geez can we use the soap box please
[17:25] Molten Magpie: TonySnow Linden over there has kinda blown off every
question (no offense personally, I speak of your diluted and evasive answers to our
questions. not your person
[17:25] Contessa Marquez: I waited my turn
[17:25] Malaki Damone: Unwishe choices, something newbies are famous for the world
over, will use up their vouchers
[17:25] Contessa Marquez: or else Ill just be rude and talk over you all also
[17:25] Malaki Damone: Would LL have us turn students away?
[17:25] Diamondback Deckard: If stimulating SL education is your motivation then
1)add the class tab to find 2) aloow class adds in the welcome areas 3) entertain
uping the $L to teach a class 4) Entertain Linden sponsored parking chairs for the
duration of classes
[17:25] Jesse Linden: allright
[17:26] Jesse Linden: im taking one more speaker
[17:26] The Soapbox: It is Denise Collingwood's turn to speak, please take the floor
[17:26] Denise Collingwood: I have a question and a suggestion.
[17:26] Denise Collingwood: Suggestion:
[17:26] Random Boyoma: you go g irl
[17:26] Denise Collingwood: I have not heard anyone among the instructors speak
favorably about your proposal.
[17:26] Daul Callisto: Funny, you've yet to take one so far as I'm concerned
[17:26] Denise Collingwood: So, if you really need input from instructors, may I
propose that you get representatives from the
[17:26] jefferey Heart: Well getting on the box was a waste of time... Sorry :(
[17:26] First Page: I WOULD HAVE
[17:26] Denise Collingwood: various educational organizations in SL such as
TeaZers, NCI etc, and have a series of meetings with those representatives?
[17:26] Denise Collingwood: This meeting appears to be a chaotic forum, than the
deliberative body that is required.
[17:26] Denise Collingwood: And, I will plug my institution without shame: As the
largest education institution in SL, I would request that TeaZers get a major voice
in that deliberative body.
[17:26] Denise Collingwood: Question: Is the primary motivation for doing what you
are doing reducing the amount of money Linden Lab spends in supporting educational
events?
[17:26] Diamondback Deckard: That would leave the independant out
[17:27] Jesse Linden: no , Denise
[17:27] bladyblue Bommerang: its all about money
[17:27] Jesse Linden: it is not
[17:27] Jesse Linden: if anything the proposal I have given
[17:27] Jesse Linden: would end up putting more Lindens into the economy
[17:27] First Page: when wil we know the answer to this ? you decisions?
[17:27] Tateru Nino: Bladyblue has a point. We're all making it SOUND like it's all
about the money.
[17:27] First Page: your*
[17:27] Rocinante Mandelbrot: Then why not hire more people to continue things as
they are? LL approves classes and pays instructors.
[17:27] Jesse Linden: ok
[17:27] Random Boyoma: cause that's what it sounds like
[17:28] Jesse Linden: I am going to let Jeffrey
[17:28] Jesse Linden: and Seleras
[17:28] Opal Dalgleish: If it NOT about the money then make the credits UNLIMITES
[17:28] jefferey Heart: 2 Questions, NO statements.
[17:28] Jesse Linden: ask questions
[17:28] Barbarra Blair: I just had one question--
[17:28] jefferey Heart: 1) So with this new system what stops someone from stealing
a class developed by another person, and teaching it for FREE? Who ultimately OWN's
the class and work an instructor has spent time developing?
[17:28] Jesse Linden: as hey have been patiently waiting
[17:28] Steev Sprocket: opal that would ruin the economy
[17:28] Niamh Flanders: if it is not about the money then why the change?
[17:28] jefferey Heart: Why hasn't a system like a Free Education path (Highschool)
and a Pay Education path (University) been explored?
[17:28] Darcy Rutledge: the amount of classes listed in the events calendar has
dramatically increased in the last year sinc eI became approved
[17:28] Jesse Linden: Im not famliar with those systems Jeffrey
[17:29] Jesse Linden: send me an email
[17:29] Mera Pixel gave you 3rdBirthdaySignNoTagline.
[17:29] Maxx Mackenzie: i don't like the idea of Phd in Daceballs :P
[17:29] Dragon Stryker: Why are you skipping names in the soapbox?
[17:29] Jesse Linden: as far as coursework stealing goes
[17:29] Haddock Trenchmouth: -_-
[17:29] Derik Draper: Phd in fishbowls
[17:29] jefferey Heart: I can send you email on 2nd.. :)
[17:29] Jesse Linden: what would be the difference between what exists now
[17:29] Charlie Lazarno: mister Jeffrey must be uk based, here in the uk school is
free we pay to go to university
[17:29] First Page: Jesse I LOVE this idea competition my speciality, but I do have
a few questions. If i have 10 people my class with vouchures .. will i get more
money then having 5?? is my questions
[17:30] jefferey Heart: Tis the same in US
[17:30] Maxx Mackenzie: education is not about getting a degree, is about getting
skills to be productive
[17:30] Jesse Linden: ok one more
[17:30] Jesse Linden: Selaras
[17:30] Dragon Stryker: Names are being skipped. This is bs
[17:30] Barbarra Blair: please let me ask qeusiton someone
[17:30] Charlie Lazarno: kk
[17:30] Jesse Linden: I promise this is only the beginning
[17:30] Xixao Dannunzio: this entire discussion is, Dragon. Lol
[17:30] Haddock Trenchmouth: if you don't get a turn, *use the forum*
[17:30] Jesse Linden: you can always email or IM me
[17:30] Dragon Stryker: I don't not believe that
[17:30] Molten Magpie: once again
[17:30] Molten Magpie: promises
[17:30] Selaras Partridge: Okay... We have a growing community of educators here,
and I recognize the concerns about the current system having outgrown itself.
[17:30] Barbarra Blair: you don't get answers on the forum
[17:30] bladyblue Bommerang: here we go again- LL thinks its welfare to pay people
to work for them
[17:30] jefferey Heart: So what I'm hearing jesse is there is NOTHING to keep
someone from taking a class that someone is wanting to get paid for...
[17:30] Jesse Linden: Ill set up a foum post with transcript as well
[17:31] jefferey Heart: KK
[17:31] Selaras Partridge: If the concerns are about quality of education, then I
think this needs to be addressed by qualitative means, evaluating classes and
teachers.
[17:31] Jesse Linden: ok..
[17:31] First Page: lol
[17:31] Jeska Linden: I think one thing we should all go away with -- is if this
system isn't what
[17:31] Molten Magpie: exactly
[17:31] Jeska Linden: we think will work - we should work towards creating one that
does :)
[17:31] Selaras Partridge: If the concerns are about L$ or quantity, then I think
we need that discussion to be opened up in a straightforward way so we can all work
on it together.
[17:31] Random Boyoma: I agree jeska
[17:31] Barbarra Blair: I would like this system if you can have both paying and
voucher students in same class
[17:31] Selaras Partridge: Vouchers won't tell the whole story, since the voucher
gets used up whether the student thinks it's a good class or a bad class (as others
have pointed out)
[17:31] Haddock Trenchmouth: I'm going to be posting my proposals on the Forum
[17:31] Molten Magpie: agreed jeska
[17:32] Jesse Linden: the concerns are primarily qualitative
[17:32] Haddock Trenchmouth: I advice everyone to do the same and discuss further
there
[17:32] Jesse Linden: meaning finding ways to grow the system
[17:32] Zany Golem: excellent haddock
[17:32] Selaras Partridge: Class approval doesn't have to be thrown out the window.
You can go with having some generally approved curriculum for example popular
classes taught by many teachers, e.g. things like Building, Texturing 101, and so on
[17:32] Jesse Linden: and support new users as well as edcuators
[17:32] Xixao Dannunzio starts sketching plans for a free university...
[17:32] Jesse Linden: simply doling out $500L/class at a blinding rate
[17:32] Barbarra Blair: I'd like not having to get approval
[17:32] Jesse Linden: doesnt seem like the best system to me
[17:32] bladyblue Bommerang: The Education System wasnt broke - so just tear it down
[17:32] Jesse Linden: I think we can all come up with something better
[17:32] Niamh Flanders: ok then it is about money
[17:32] Jesse Linden: so lets work on it
[17:33] Selaras Partridge: That will automate a bulk of the classes, which would
reduce workload, but also make room for flexibility, allow other classes to be
individually approved if they don't fit with the general bulk of classes
[17:33] Izira Kirkorian: well all I have a class and cannot stay... I will email my
statements to you Jesse... thank you
[17:33] Molten Magpie: "at a blinding rate" FINALLY
[17:33] Molten Magpie: we come to the point
[17:33] First Page: lol this is good Jesse this is really good or Lucy who ever
came up with this .. ^.^
[17:33] Selaras Partridge: One of my concerns is that if we impose a strict system
like this on our growing community, it will threaten forums of education that
haven't even been established yet.
[17:33] Carl Metropolitan: If anyone wants a copy of my Automated Attendence Taker
proposal, click the blue box nex to me.
[17:33] nimrod Yaffle: First, you're just happy you can make some alts to abuse it.
:-P
[17:33] Derik Draper: seems to me LL is working on making it harder for us to get
the 5 student quota
[17:33] Selaras Partridge: I think we've only scratched the surface of Education in SL
[17:33] First Page: or smaller ones that have
[17:33] nimrod Yaffle: (I'm kidding)
[17:33] Xixao Dannunzio: so, let me get ths striaight...
[17:33] Jesse Linden: I agree, Selaras
[17:33] bladyblue Bommerang: Talking at us - wasted time at a lagfest
[17:33] Selaras Partridge: We have classes thriving on building, texturing... but
what about the other ones?
[17:33] Bekka Damone: Stella?
[17:34] Xixao Dannunzio: you approve and approve and approve, and keep gathering
instructors
[17:34] Random Boyoma: I will want oen if I cna move sheez
[17:34] Selaras Partridge: I propose that you put the automatic payer in place,
something like that AAT that Carl described earlier. This will hopefully cut down on
workload so that you have some time to address the quality issues
[17:34] First Page: this could be teh end to thriving smaller university
[17:34] Bekka Damone: what is this place?
[17:34] Xixao Dannunzio: then when you have a good abundance of them, it's too much
[17:34] Bekka Damone: for builders?
[17:34] Xixao Dannunzio: so you change the system
[17:34] First Page: seem somewhat unfair to me
[17:34] Jesse Linden: thats the plan Selaras
[17:34] First Page: didnt think of that
[17:34] Random Boyoma: me too
[17:34] bladyblue Bommerang: The decision has already been made - this is just to
pretend we had a hand in the decision
[17:34] Selaras Partridge: From where I'm standing, I don't think we need fewer
classes. We need more classes and more teachers teaching perhaps a greater variety
of classes.
[17:34] Tateru Nino: One of the first things that was said in this discussion was
.We're certainly not doing this for the money..
[17:34] Jesse Linden: agreed
[17:34] Tateru Nino: So...why do most of us sound like the money is all that
matters here today (some of the folks here are obviously exceptions to that)? Like
.a buck and a quarter an hour. is a gold bar?
[17:34] Tateru Nino: For my class, personally, I don't see an issue. I get a lot of
people to my classes. Between 5 and 30 every time. If we're just talking money, I'd
be way better off on this voucher scheme.
[17:34] Tateru Nino: I could splurge on tons of shoes. Actually, though, I only
started claiming class subsidies relatively recently.
[17:34] Tateru Nino: As long as people want to learn, I'll find a way to teach them
whether or not there's any subsidisation scheme.

PART 4.
[17:35] Tateru Nino: That's because I'm a teacher. I'll never turn a student away.
Payment or no payment, voucher or no voucher. Young or old.
[17:35] Jesse Linden: thanks for coming out folks
[17:35] Tateru Nino: It's nice to be paid, but what's the important issue here?
Doing it? Or maximising your profit?
[17:35] Dragon Stryker: lol
[17:35] Carl Metropolitan: Hey--I would make out like a bandit on the voucher system!
[17:35] First Page: when.... can we look for a date of this being inplace?
[17:35] Dragon Stryker: I love game developers
[17:35] Kim Seifert: jesse
[17:35] Diamondback Deckard: The current system works pretty good. We just need a
better way to let people know when and where classes are offered
[17:35] Tateru Nino: Think about it.
[17:35] Random Boyoma: thanks for putting up with it all..hopefully you'll take our
ideas into consideration
[17:35] Barbarra Blair: I think you would Carl!
[17:35] Jesse Linden: againm this is only the beginning of the discussion
[17:35] Maxx Mackenzie: SL is not a game :P
[17:35] Kim Seifert: one quick questno if you don't mind
[17:35] First Page: yes Carl YOU would :P
[17:35] bladyblue Bommerang: Tateru that is exactly what they want: You to work
free for them while they get premium members from your efforts
[17:35] Jesse Linden: I think an automated payment mechanism
[17:35] First Page: you are awesome ^.^ *hugs*
[17:35] Jesse Linden: is defintiely in the works
[17:36] Jesse Linden: the rest is up for debate
[17:36] bladyblue Bommerang: make a system so convoluted that you abandon it
[17:36] jefferey Heart: Defiantly MORE discussion is needed where can we look for
that?
[17:36] Samm Squeegee: Education should not be a "business competition" If you make
students pay for their classes, they WILL NOT ATTEND. MOST think of this as a GAME..
Who is going to pay to get taught how to PLAY A GAME?
[17:36] First Page: in the works like 1 week 1 month 1 year?
[17:36] Tateru Nino: I don't mind, blady. I'd rathre just teach.
[17:36] Kim Seifert: I would llike to be able to make a proposal...but without a
bottom line that LL is willing to pay for educatino, I cannot do that...
[17:36] Xixao Dannunzio: if all you care abou is money, then great. This system's
for you. Personally, I'd rather offer my classes freely than to take someone's money
for knowledge they shouldn't have to pay for
[17:36] Kim Seifert: I need to know my constraints
[17:36] Barbarra Blair: All I want to know is wheterh we can combine paying and
voucher studens in same class and teach on our own land
[17:36] Jesse Linden: have a good night everyone
[17:36] Wagahai Oddfellow: as long as LL gts a few $US for ppl wanting to get more
vouchers than the starting amount, the system will be a success (and of course it's
not about the $) ;)
[17:36] Stephania Marx: Teazers has over 200 approved classes, are we supposed to
throw out the elective classes because people would not want to waste their voucher
or pay 100L for it when they could be using their vouchers for something more
beneficial to them?
[17:36] Carl Metropolitan: Right--and I STILL don't think this is a good idea :)
[17:36] bladyblue Bommerang: The end
[17:36] First Page: well competition is not in teh systme now samm
[17:36] First Page: but it will be *smiles*
[17:36] Haddock Trenchmouth: :)
[17:36] Dragon Stryker: so much for a time frame
[17:36] Haddock Trenchmouth: FORUM
[17:36] First Page: if they go though with this
[17:36] Tashie Oddfellow: the way i see it they arent paying for their education,
they get FREE vouchers to use - educators then redeem them
[17:36] Duke Scarborough tries to avoid being trampled.
[17:36] Diamondback Deckard: well that was energetic
[17:36] Dragon Stryker: bye Jesse
[17:36] Duke Scarborough: FORUM
[17:36] The Sojourner: Barbarra, we alwas coul do that
[17:36] Samm Squeegee: Yes it will, First
[17:36] Duke Scarborough: FORUM, FORUM
[17:36] First Page: would not be be very good for some that are doing just fine now
[17:36] Adam Linden: Quick Side Note...for you Educators who arent on the educators
mailing list. Sign up! It's a great palce to debate this. You can do so on your
account page on the website.
[17:36] Niamh Flanders: :/
[17:36] Barbarra Blair: ok
[17:36] The Sojourner: We teach all the time and dont ask for pay
[17:37] Random Boyoma: where is that blue box?
[17:37] Jeska Linden: Yes, take it over to the forum so we can all talk :)
[17:37] Duke Scarborough: FORUM, FORUM, FORUM ;)
[17:37] The Sojourner: or forget to ..lol
[17:37] jefferey Heart: FORUM!!!!
[17:37] Haddock Trenchmouth: STORUM TEH FORUM LOL
[17:37] Jeska Linden: *giggles*
[17:37] Adam Linden: Or the forum like Jeska said ! :)
[17:37] Adam Linden: haha
[17:37] Zany Golem: lol
[17:37] Tashie Oddfellow: you do get paid each time you get L$500 for a class
[17:37] Barbarra Blair: I've never taken payments from students.
[17:37] Jeska Linden pictures 200 instructors storming the forums
[17:37] Random Boyoma: There are instructors ate the gates
[17:37] Jeska Linden: with schoolbooks in hand
[17:37] First Page: Jeska how you been !!
[17:37] jefferey Heart: Someone pick the topic this time NOT ME!!! :)
[17:37] Jeska Linden: and rulers
[17:37] Barbarra Blair: But what they hey.
[17:37] Jeska Linden: *giggles*
[17:37] Niamh Flanders: I enjoy teaching, but I have no interest in competing
against other teachers.
[17:37] Dragon Stryker: I won't be storming the forums, I already know the outcome.
[17:37] Wagahai Oddfellow: Jeska: and a few non-instructors
[17:37] Jeska Linden: Thanks for coming out everyone :)
[17:37] Zain Quatro: Thank you Adam.
[17:37] bladyblue Bommerang: The decision is made people - why waste your keystrokes
[17:37] Duke Scarborough: We need a better forum system for discussions ;)
[17:37] Xixao Dannunzio: someone please inform me of any important additions to
this discussion. I can't sit and listen to this any longer
[17:37] Zany Golem: lol jefferey
[17:37] Carl Metropolitan: Forum: where 5% of SL population can bitch about any
suggestions we have :)
[17:37] First Page: lol could be fun ^.^
[17:37] nimrod Yaffle: Is there a Linden here that can answer a simple, quick
question about me using the SL logo? If so, say so and I'll IM you :-D
[17:37] Haddock Trenchmouth: thank you Lindens and Tateru :3
[17:38] Haddock Trenchmouth: have a good night
[17:38] Barbarra Blair: Yep, now I must think of a way to take advantage of this.
[17:38] Charles Coleman: Xea, you there?
[17:38] Jeska Linden: nimrod - there are specifics on what you can/can't use it for
on the website
[17:38] Diamondback Deckard: jeskas up front
[17:38] Barbarra Blair: I do like not having to get approval to change a class.
[17:38] nimrod Yaffle: I've tried calling LL about it for the past 2 days, but no
answer :-/
[17:38] Xea Maradona: oh eys sorry Charles lol
[17:38] Sabine Stonebender: back to teaching fo funsies:)
[17:38] Jeska Linden: http://secondlife.com/community/fansites_regs.php
[17:38] Shirley Marquez: got to run... bye, everybody!
[17:38] Charles Coleman: np :)
[17:38] Jeska Linden: nimrod - try that link:
http://secondlife.com/community/fansites_regs.php
[17:38] Charles Coleman: bye Shirley
[17:39] Xea Maradona: wanna head to ASL Charles?
[17:39] nimrod Yaffle: I know Jeska, I check there, but I wanted to know if it
would be ok to use the SL logo (just the logo) on my Anthrocon badge?
[17:39] nimrod Yaffle: *Checked
[17:39] Callipygian Christensen has to go help someone..later all
[17:39] Alix Fauna: dinner time , tc everyone
[17:39] Charles Coleman: sure
[17:39] Random Boyoma: nice bunny slippers
[17:39] Xea Maradona: ok
[17:39] Jeska Linden: nimrod - send an email to [email]goodstuff@secondlife.com[/email]
[17:39] Charles Coleman: bye Calli
[17:39] Charles Coleman: bye Alix
[17:40] Norton Lazarno: wonder when www.thirdlife.com is due to cheer us up?
[17:40] jefferey Heart: ahahhahahah
[17:40] Rocinante Mandelbrot chuckles
[17:40] jefferey Heart: NORTON!!
[17:40] Niamh Flanders: lol
[17:40] Molten Magpie: rofl
[17:40] Jeska Linden: Ok, I've got to run to another meeting :)
[17:40] jefferey Heart: That is the version you only get to play in your MIND right?
[17:40] Kim Seifert: bye jeska
[17:40] Ima Mechanique: convenient escape ploy
[17:40] Jebediah Spatula: bye Jeska
[17:40] Kim Seifert: good to see you hon
[17:40] Molten Magpie: how long will it take for the population to learn enough to
code their own SL
[17:40] Jeska Linden: Everyone have fun in here and please go to the forums and
help us hash out the best way to scale the instructors program :)
[17:40] Rocinante Mandelbrot: Ahh good, I cleared First's head
[17:40] Kim Seifert: and have a monkey punch for me
[17:40] Molten Magpie: haha
[17:41] Lucy Linden: Thank you all for coming
[17:41] Lucy Linden: FareWell! for now
[17:41] jefferey Heart: Ty Lucy, Jeska
[17:41] Molten Magpie: thanks jeska
[17:41] Samm Squeegee remembers the "good ol days" when SL was FUN and not such a
bloody headache
[17:41] Molten Magpie: thanks lucy
[17:41] Molten Magpie: for all your overtime
[17:41] tsanti Xia: take care Lucy
[17:41] Derik Draper: why fix what isn't broke
[17:41] Monique Sassoon: bye all
[17:41] Rocinante Mandelbrot: Thanks Lucy, Jeska, Jesse and whomever put this
meeting together
[17:41] Contessa Marquez: Thank you everyone
[17:41] Molten Magpie: yeah, the instructor campaign slogan of the day
[17:41] Derik Draper: just do the automated payment system like we once had
[17:41] Molten Magpie: thanks jesse
[17:41] Contessa Marquez: Thanks Lucy, Jeska, and Jesse
[17:41] Norton Lazarno: a voucher a day keeps the students away
[17:42] Molten Magpie: sorry about the WH press sec crack
[17:42] Zain Quatro: Mpt Long Molten, not long at all.....
[17:42] bladyblue Bommerang: next our premium stipends
[17:42] jefferey Heart: Writing email...
[17:42] Molten Magpie: never got a premium account
[17:43] Molten Magpie: I work for damn near free, I'll be damned if I'd pay to play
[17:43] Derik Draper: why not they got rid of the free account stipends next we
will only get 250
[17:43] Rocinante Mandelbrot: Here here, Molten
[17:43] Molten Magpie: just ditch the stipends all together
[17:44] Molten Magpie: for all I care
[17:44] Norton Lazarno: lets just charge instructors for teaching as its the same
as a gambler gambling :-) rotflmao
[17:44] Molten Magpie: it would make all of our classes more popular
[17:44] Samm Squeegee: Exactly.. and I also expect the amounts for premium accounts
and tier to increase in the near future
[17:44] Molten Magpie: if makeing stuff was easier than buying it
[17:44] Derik Draper: geez beginning to think I should have just stayed teaching in
sandboxes like I was
[17:44] Molten Magpie: well LL has to get in the black
[17:44] Molten Magpie: I'm not against that
[17:44] Molten Magpie: they still losing money
[17:44] Kim Seifert: yes
[17:44] Molten Magpie: but this isn't the way
[17:45] Kim Seifert: but we need to know their bottom line
[17:45] Molten Magpie: this isn't the corner to cut
[17:45] Molten Magpie: as long as they're going to dance around
[17:45] Molten Magpie: and lie to us
[17:45] Molten Magpie: about what the issue is
[17:45] Molten Magpie: it's ahrd to make any progress
[17:45] Remi Orman: lol too true, Molten
[17:45] Kim Seifert: how can we help if we don't know what their bottom line is
.... an dwhy
[17:45] Duke Scarborough: Printing money doesn't cost them anything - I think
they're just unintentionally naive.
[17:45] Selaras Partridge: Maybe vouchers could work in some form if they weren't
limited toa fixed number... Say a newbie joins SL and gets 20 vouchers, but then
they get 5 more for every week they log in, so they can continue learning.
[17:45] Molten Magpie: anyone disagree? that LL wants to make it cheaper, it's not
quality control that this will affect
[17:46] Molten Magpie: it's a policy based soley to set the 200 or so active
educators agtainst each othert
[17:46] Kenny Linden: Why is it assumed there is an issue other than the voume of
paperworking and checking required?
[17:46] Duke Scarborough: I disagree - I don't think they're worried about how much
money they print
[17:46] Molten Magpie: thus saving LL beaucoup bucks
[17:46] Kenny Linden: I'm speculating, and genuinely curious
[17:46] Rini Rampal: I was thinking something along the lines of... You start out
with 10 vouchers. Once you drop below 5, you get a voucher each week up to that
limit of 5.
[17:46] Kim Seifert: i agree molten
[17:46] Amore Madonna: FIrst I like the idea in theory of the vouchers, lets not bs
here we all know its just not limiting paper work its limiting lindens flowing out
from LL. I don't like the bs flying, say it as it is, with that said :-
[17:46] Norton Lazarno: the word budget was mentioned
[17:46] Kim Seifert: will become more a marketplace
[17:46] Duke Scarborough: It costs them $0US to print L$
[17:46] Zain Quatro: Probably 90% of the top 1000 programmers in the world have
accounts here... If things go seriously south, it may take a year or so to organize
and code.
[17:46] Duke Scarborough: They save no money
[17:46] Kenny Linden: with this new system, you guys should get paid more and have
more teaching opportunities
[17:46] Duke Scarborough: They're JUST naive
[17:46] Kim Seifert: but duke
[17:47] bladyblue Bommerang: They pretend to saev money
[17:47] Charlie Lazarno: and maximizing how many credits each student can have
before they have to buy
[17:47] nimrod Yaffle: Are you all forgetting that it's possible to make (almost)
unlimited alts now?
[17:47] Derik Draper: exactly when did this become a business situation
[17:47] Duke Scarborough: Thats where they're stupid
[17:47] Kim Seifert: for them to attract people....they have to have an
economy...and that cannot survive by printing free l
[17:47] Duke Scarborough: They think they're creating an economy for us
[17:47] jefferey Heart: Ewww... It's like a socialist system becoming capitolist!!
Ewwww...
[17:47] Amore Madonna: I have some concerns
[17:47] Duke Scarborough: But Education should NOT be an economy
[17:47] Kim Seifert: but it is
[17:47] Molten Magpie: you think it would work that way kenny?
[17:47] Duke Scarborough: It is because America is full of capitalists
[17:48] Duke Scarborough: It should not be, not here in SL
[17:48] Kenny Linden: Work what way?
[17:48] bladyblue Bommerang: Teaching paying customers how to use your product
should not cost money
[17:48] Kenny Linden: (sorry, lots of LH at the same time)
[17:48] Molten Magpie: my issue is the value they place on our work
[17:48] jefferey Heart: Yeah we are Duke but there is a section of education we
have determined that should be FREE to all.
[17:48] Molten Magpie: I feel like a cheap hussy after hearing that ultimatum
[17:48] Carl Metropolitan: I like capitalism. I just am not sure I want to bring it
into my non-profit part of my life.
[17:48] Kenny Linden: We value it immensely - and would like you guys to get paid
promptly and accurately
[17:49] Kim Seifert: yes...after working so freaking hard
[17:49] Myria Myriam: actually saving them having to dish out for Manuals on How To .
[17:49] Charlie Lazarno: haha sounds to this one that whatever system we put in
place the Lindens will trough the spanner in the works to stop it
[17:49] Kenny Linden: unfortunately, that's just not scalable
[17:49] Duke Scarborough: Getting paid .50/hour to teach classes right now, Molten
- I don't do it for the money
[17:49] Molten Magpie: if this is some sick sociological experiment
[17:49] Kim Seifert: wo don't either duke
[17:49] Duke Scarborough: Im a trainee...I get 150L
[17:49] Molten Magpie: in modeling in SL the failure of crazy friggin neo con
servative education spending policies
[17:49] Molten Magpie: then I'm all for it
[17:49] Norton Lazarno: I certainly dont do it for the money
[17:49] Duke Scarborough: This doesn't stop me from teaching..
[17:49] Carl Metropolitan gave you Automated Attendence Taker Proposal.
[17:49] Molten Magpie: as long as the results get published and it makes a
difference in RL
[17:49] Norton Lazarno: id work in RL for money
[17:49] Duke Scarborough: So really it doesn't hurt ME
[17:50] Duke Scarborough: but it might KILL someone paying tier
[17:50] Selaras Partridge: Thanks Carl!
[17:50] Molten Magpie: but if this is the Linden's idea of doing the educators a favor
[17:50] Tateru Nino: Thanks, Carl!
[17:50] Amore Madonna: Hey Sel!!
[17:50] Samm Squeegee: Who ya gonna teach when no one shows up to your classes,
Duke???
[17:50] bladyblue Bommerang: LL wants us to work for them for free
[17:50] Selaras Partridge: Hi Amore!
[17:50] Molten Magpie: or the students, for that matter...they can keep their favors
[17:50] Duke Scarborough: They wont need vouchers, Samm
[17:50] Duke Scarborough: I will ALWAYS teach
[17:50] Selaras Partridge: I had to turn off Character Rendering at some point,
where is everyone? (:
[17:50] bladyblue Bommerang: bottomline
[17:50] Tateru Nino: Amen, Duke.
[17:50] Duke Scarborough: Right here in this room!
[17:50] Amore Madonna: lol
[17:50] Duke Scarborough: On Gov Linden's land
[17:50] Samm Squeegee: Good answer! :D
[17:51] Molten Magpie: you want us to describe it to you Selaras?
[17:51] Daul Callisto: I definatly do it for the money, and I see no shame in
saying that. I work hard, I teach damned good classes, and I deserve the payment I
get for helping people who have no idea how to help themselves.
[17:51] Duke Scarborough: As long as the Events system continues to support me - I
have no personal worries
[17:51] Duke Scarborough: But I am worried for the UNiversities
[17:51] Daul Callisto: But I certainly don't expect the students to have to pay that.
[17:51] Carl Metropolitan: My proposal has been posted to the forums. If anyone
else wants a copy, IM me.
[17:51] Duke Scarborough: But I BELIEVE Jesse when he says its not about money
[17:51] Tateru Nino: I like getting a little something for it, but that's just
icing. It's the cake that's important. Teaching. Passing on knowledge. Seeing the
light go on in people's heads.
[17:52] Duke Scarborough: I think he's just misguided (she?)
[17:52] Norton Lazarno: its always about money
[17:52] Molten Magpie: yes and if the concern is "the overall quality of education
in SL" the universities are an important part of that
[17:52] Tateru Nino: I'd pay to do it...technically I actually DO pay to do it.
[17:52] bladyblue Bommerang: The Universities, just like the clubs, will fall like
dominoes
[17:52] Molten Magpie: plus we're predictablke, students know they can come and
learn something, and that momentum is important
[17:52] Duke Scarborough: I think they're cutting off their nose....to quote a phrase
[17:52] Samm Squeegee: I dont.. not when it was blatently said "I dont see the
reason for shelling out $500L at a blinding rate."
[17:52] Samm Squeegee: THAT IS about the money
[17:52] Duke Scarborough: It costs them NOTHING, Samm
[17:52] Rini Rampal: That's about not /wasting/ the money.
[17:52] Molten Magpie: exacftly
[17:52] bladyblue Bommerang: The Lindens recruited all of these new Instructors
[17:52] Duke Scarborough: He can print money till the cows come home
[17:52] Kenny Linden: Sorry guys, I have to run. Please don't panic just yet
[17:52] Molten Magpie: the only thing he said that was really relevant
[17:52] bladyblue Bommerang: they began teh waste
[17:52] Duke Scarborough: It means NOTHING to them
[17:53] Tateru Nino: Recruited? Or did they volunteer?
[17:53] Duke Scarborough: They MAKE money by printing money on the Lindex
[17:53] Kenny Linden: We are listening and want to reach a good situation for all
[17:53] Molten Magpie: haha
[17:53] Duke Scarborough: So that doesn't hold water
[17:53] Carl Metropolitan: THey don't do that, yet, Duke
[17:53] Niamh Flanders: it costs them money when instructors are earning 1k a day
by teaching instead of buying lindens
[17:53] bladyblue Bommerang: Cant get teh tag without Linden Approval
[17:53] Daul Callisto: LL is clearly about the money... and they really honestly
don't seem a bit concerned if they waste it or not, just so long as they don't give
too much of it out.
[17:53] Duke Scarborough: No
[17:53] Carl Metropolitan: They only have said they can do that.
[17:53] Duke Scarborough: They make money when you sell!
[17:53] Duke Scarborough: They make .30+ 3.5%
[17:53] Carl Metropolitan: Not a lot
[17:53] bladyblue Bommerang: They give too much out when they recruit too many people
[17:53] Duke Scarborough: Every sale
[17:53] Tateru Nino: Well, they're a business, Daul. They have fiduciary
responsibilities.
[17:53] Carl Metropolitan: Barely enough to cover maintenence
[17:53] Duke Scarborough: They print money - we exchange it, they get paid
[17:53] Tateru Nino: They don't turn a profit...all this goes away.
[17:53] Carl Metropolitan: Again--I have no problem with making money.
[17:54] Daul Callisto: They hadn't even thought out ways to keep classes
validated.... just a way to limit us.
[17:54] Duke Scarborough: They print more, we exchange more...they make MORE
[17:54] Carl Metropolitan: Money is cool.
[17:54] bladyblue Bommerang: Then they should not eb handing out Instructor tags
like candy
[17:54] Tateru Nino: Money! Yum!
[17:54] Molten Magpie: LL definitely operates in the red still
[17:54] Carl Metropolitan: I just keep thinking what they proposed will get
horribly gamed
[17:54] Duke Scarborough: I think Im going to break specific arguments up into
threads on the forum

So, at the above meeting, I heard LL saying that they're concerned with the quality and size of the current Education System, which was designed for a program a tenth its size. Jesse said:

[17:32] Jesse Linden: the concerns are primarily qualitative

I don't have a proposal right here just yet, but let's take the opportunity here as educators and community members to hash out ideas and concerns openly to find the best solution before anything is decided without our input.



- What do you think are the qualitative concerns with the current program?

- Does the proposed Education Credit or Voucher system address these concerns? How so or how not?

- How else might we get a higher level of quality with classes in SL?



Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure the real problem is adminstrative. Some actual person has to approve each class, approve payment, etc. That is what they are trying to eliminate, so I don't think any alternative system that is not completely automated will get past first base here.

All right, this was brought up numerous times, but kinda shushed up...but, what keeps a teacher from having a class, getting a classful of people, and then also giving say 5-10 other vouchers from their other AV's? Then there's upwards of 2-3k per class...how will that help with the economy?

Im not an instructor or anything but i do teach people basic building skills one on one, from reading the notes on the meeting my main worry is with people being able to get numerous free acounts now, whats to stop people registering new accounts and then just trading all the credit notes over to one person, basically rendering the new system useless? how will linden labs combat that, only allow premium accounts the credit notes, and if thats the case how is that fair, how will this system benefit new and old players looking for education and the instructors who take the time to actually teach people?

maybe im on the wrong track here, but this system could be easily abused by people, its swg all over again, make things easier for the company and screw everyone else!

just my thoughts...

If you want a means to fix the Work Hours problem, reduce the number of false class claims (helping economy) and making the act of posting classes easier for instructors read the 'Long Post' i started.

I proposed a way of dealing with alts by IP address and Billing Address in this post here:
/208/78/113770/1.html#post1092383

But I'm not sure how LL would deal with alts with totally unique IP and billing addresses.

Any ideas?

It seems the main problem is caused by a large number of classes being taught daily, and only one LL staff person to handle all the accounting for it. I really don't see anything related to the quality of SL's current education system here, despite what may have been said...

I had my stand on the soapbox, and you can clearly read my statements there, so I won't state my objections to this proposal. I will, however, say that I feel the only true solution to this "problem" is to a) increase LL staff appointed to this area of accounting, b) automate the process, or c) allow universities to mass-report classes, and pay out on a weekly basis.

As you can see above, the Lindens assured me that no consequences would be given for instructors providing free classes, and if such a change were to take place, I plan to open a university that will freely offer classes to all players. Funding will rely solely on tips, given voluntarily by players, or by the donation of vouchers, etc. One way or another, my students will not be required to pay for their instruction. I encourage others to do the same, if possible. Players should not have to pay for inadequate staffing.

Does anyone else have any other ideas on ways to tackle this issue? Are you in support of the proposed change?

The Lindens have already said quite concretely that automating the accounting process, your (b) choice, will happen for sure.

Currently, (c) is happening at least with some schools. I know we're mass-reporting classes at the Academy of Second Learning, and while we don't get paid only once a week, I do try to submit as few times as possible to lessen the paperwork load for LL. Individual teachers could do this also, save up reports and send them in once a week.

At any rate, when the automatic payment system is put in place, the workload for administration of payments should be significantly decreased, so there are probably other problems this doesn't sufficiently address.

I'm in support of This Thread's recommendation on how to handle scaling the Instructors. Then again i wrote that thread and am quite biased. Might want a 2nd opinion too.

I've been slowly trying to ingest all the ideas I've seen here. Here a few ideas and thoughts.


1. Class Quality

Currently I don't feel there is much incentive to do a quality class outside of the goodness of one's heart. Th current idea of a "class" is very loose and lends itself to abuse, however making it too string might discourage the casual instructor from teaching a perfectly needed and desired class.

So what would encourage the quality of classes in the current or future system? Rating system? *giggles

2. Class announcements

I don't know why so few people use find, but the fact remains they don't. Either it's too much for the eyes or just not organized enough. You can very easily find something if you are specifically looking for it, but --paradoxically-- people new to the game who most want to take classes are unlikely to find it. I think that a web page could provide more flexibility than the in-game search (at this time) and SLURLS are a bright future to connection from web to SL.

How best can classes be found?

3. Gaming the system

When it comes to being paid for class there are two ways that I've gotten about the same money... being paid by LL and asking for donations. When stipends where cut however... newbies had less to give out and my donations dropped. (in fact I got asked for money). Is making students pay for education a dead end??? I hope not.. I get paid in RL and hope that the stigma of paying for things in game can be overcome.

It's a lot to think about.. I hope to hear a lot more ideas here!

Training. To ensure high-quality classes, it makes sense to first ensure that the teachers are capable of delivering high-quality classes. Teaching a class isn't just about knowing what you want your students to learn -- you need to know how to help your students learn it. And you need to want to help your students learn it.

Unfortunately, in my experience, those who are happy to continue delivering poor-quality classes usually aren't interested in any training for themselves either.

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