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Known problem players as live helpers.

Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
08-26-2005 00:46
This is something I always wanted to ask about Live Helpers. I have noticed a few members in Live Help( I know many that are great and their services reflect it) But There is a few people that are known problem players in the game and yet they are still in live help? If a member of Live Help get banned or warned countless times dont they lose their status as a live helper? I am not pointing fingers, but I just dont understand LL views on these questenable players. I know these players have been banned. can someone clear this up.
Usagi
Jeska Linden
Administrator
Join date: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 2,388
08-31-2005 17:46
Thank you for your note and concerns. First, since the disciplinary record of all Residents is a confidential matter, I'm unable to comment on any case in particular. Having said that, in order to be a volunteer in Second Life, your account (and any associated alts) do need to have an maintain a "relatively clean Linden Rapsheet" - what this means is that in order to be a Live Helper, Mentor or Greeter, you need to have not had any run-ins with support in the recent future.
Aaron Levy
Medicated Lately?
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,147
08-31-2005 17:51
From: someone
in order to be a Live Helper, Mentor or Greeter, you need to have not had any run-ins with support in the recent future.


WOW! You guys can tell if I'm going to have a run-in with you in the future?! Where's my minority report!?!

;)
SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
They just read the police report.
08-31-2005 18:07
They just read the police report. It's had all sorts of dates in it, including future ones.

Seriously, there are problems with the stated criterion for rejection as a SL volunteer. It's completely ambiguous, totally subjective, and there is no mention of whether all the accounts attributed to one person are taken into consideration, and doesn't mention if forum behavior is taken into account.
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Jeska Linden
Administrator
Join date: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 2,388
08-31-2005 18:14
Ack! I meant recent past... not future ;)
Jeska Linden
Administrator
Join date: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 2,388
08-31-2005 18:17
From: SuezanneC Baskerville
They just read the police report. It's had all sorts of dates in it, including future ones.

Seriously, there are problems with the stated criterion for rejection as a SL volunteer. It's completely ambiguous, totally subjective, and there is no mention of whether all the accounts attributed to one person are taken into consideration, and doesn't mention if forum behavior is taken into account.


Actually, the three stated requirements are pretty flexible:

* Desire to help your fellow Residents
* Have been in-world for at least two months
* Have and maintain a relatively clean Linden Rapsheet

It allows for people who have had minor run-ins with support more ability to join a volunteer group, versus the old requirments which did not allow any marks on the Rapsheet at all.


> And the police blotter has been fixed! No more future events being tracked :)
Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
08-31-2005 21:00
There is a nice system of checks whereby all the LH dialogs are viewable by all LH actives and Liaisons. I've seen Liaisons and LH'ers jump into dialogs to correct or clarify, but I've not seen a single instance of rudeness in all my time on LH.

Usagi, was the question philosophical or have you seen an instance of misconduct? I'm not saying that Jeska should change criteria, but even if Joe BadassGriefer (or alt) was an active member of LH and providing good service, why not? If Joe acted as a jerk in LH the omnipresent Vortex or Wisper (hi folks ;) ) would stomp him fast. LH is a poor choice of places to grief from.

(Okay, I admit to having joked about insta-porting to LH callers and Seburoing them off-world to reduce the support load, but they were only jokes, really!)
SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
09-01-2005 05:43
From: Jeska
Actually, the three stated requirements are pretty flexible:

* Desire to help your fellow Residents
* Have been in-world for at least two months
* Have and maintain a relatively clean Linden Rapsheet


The "flexibility" of the phrase "have and maintain a relatively clean Linden Rapsheet" is exactly what is wrong with it as a rule. It doesn't specify what having and maintaining said rapsheet in a relatively clean manner means in objective terms.

What exactly is included in a Linden Rapsheet?

Does the rapsheet include all a person's accounts?

Does the record under examination extend all the way back to the beginning of an account's creation?

Does the rapsheet include forum bad post reports, and if so do those get included from before the time it was announced that forum behavior would have real world penalties?

A rule that was clear and unambiguous would have answered questions such as above and others I did not mention.

"You need to have not had any run-ins with support in the recent [past]" and "It allows for people who have had minor run-ins with support more ability to join a volunteer group" sound a bit contradictory to my ears.
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
09-04-2005 05:09
From: Jeska Linden
Thank you for your note and concerns. First, since the disciplinary record of all Residents is a confidential matter, I'm unable to comment on any case in particular. Having said that, in order to be a volunteer in Second Life, your account (and any associated alts) do need to have an maintain a "relatively clean Linden Rapsheet" - what this means is that in order to be a Live Helper, Mentor or Greeter, you need to have not had any run-ins with support in the recent future.


Jeska pardon but i have to LAUGH! Gesh this one livehelper not only is known as a one of the dirtest players on sl. Infact its one of the worse of out there to date. what is worse yet it does not even know the simplest problem solving methods! Gesh! No wonder LH is getting a bad rep with some player like this one. GESH!
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
09-04-2005 05:15
From: SuezanneC Baskerville
The "flexibility" of the phrase "have and maintain a relatively clean Linden Rapsheet" is exactly what is wrong with it as a rule. It doesn't specify what having and maintaining said rapsheet in a relatively clean manner means in objective terms.

What exactly is included in a Linden Rapsheet?

Does the rapsheet include all a person's accounts?

Does the record under examination extend all the way back to the beginning of an account's creation?

Does the rapsheet include forum bad post reports, and if so do those get included from before the time it was announced that forum behavior would have real world penalties?

A rule that was clear and unambiguous would have answered questions such as above and others I did not mention.

"You need to have not had any run-ins with support in the recent [past]" and "It allows for people who have had minor run-ins with support more ability to join a volunteer group" sound a bit contradictory to my ears.

AGREED! Gesh fianlly someone else replied to this message. I can understand MINOR run in with a problem BUT COUNTLESS ONES?! OMG I could write some pretty juicey things here but being a part of the LL team I not going to because of my repect for LL and my positions. Gesh LL reallyneeds to address these issues and FAST! To my undersatnding there is a under 18 player in the mentors as well! Now tell me....is this possible?!??!?!
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
09-10-2005 00:12
From: Jeska Linden
Thank you for your note and concerns. First, since the disciplinary record of all Residents is a confidential matter, I'm unable to comment on any case in particular. Having said that, in order to be a volunteer in Second Life, your account (and any associated alts) do need to have an maintain a "relatively clean Linden Rapsheet" - what this means is that in order to be a Live Helper, Mentor or Greeter, you need to have not had any run-ins with support in the recent future.
I have seen posts on the forum made by Mentors etc that violate the forum posting rules as well as the TOS/CS (ie: name calling, flaming, ridicule of other members, harassment,) so is it fair to conclude that these members maintain a clean Linden Rapsheet because they are not being sanctioned?
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
09-10-2005 01:29
From: ME
real world penalties?

I think I must have meant IN world penalties, not REAL world penalties. I hope.
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Blueman Steele
Registered User
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,038
Report them
09-10-2005 01:30
From: Usagi Musashi
Jeska pardon but i have to LAUGH! Gesh this one livehelper not only is known as a one of the dirtest players on sl. Infact its one of the worse of out there to date. what is worse yet it does not even know the simplest problem solving methods! Gesh! No wonder LH is getting a bad rep with some player like this one. GESH!


if they are doing things against TOS then report them... ruin their rapsheet..poof no more problem.

Just report any and all things they do against TOS, because I know you wouldn't complain about people who just didn't conform to your behavior standards.

*pats Usagi on the back.
SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
09-10-2005 01:34
From: someone
fair to conclude that these members maintain a clean Linden Rapsheet because they are not being sanctioned?

I think that is pretty safe to assume.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

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Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard,
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Zapoteth Zaius
Is back
Join date: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 5,634
09-10-2005 03:06
From: SuezanneC Baskerville
What exactly is included in a Linden Rapsheet?

Does the rapsheet include all a person's accounts?

Does the record under examination extend all the way back to the beginning of an account's creation?

Does the rapsheet include forum bad post reports, and if so do those get included from before the time it was announced that forum behavior would have real world penalties?


*Feature Suggestion*
Ability to request Linden Rapsheet in email form ;)
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Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
Yes!
09-10-2005 17:25
I'd like to see any and all records a company makes pertaining to me, and in fact think it is part of my rights under FOIPOP legislation in Canada, if i'm not mistaken. (does that only apply to canadian entities tho? probably, eh?)

Anyway, I have a valid reason for wondering. I have never been contacted by anyone to indicate that any of my accounts have had complaints. I try to have ethical behaviour in game, and treat others well, though misunderstandings have occasionally arisen,* more when I was new to game. When that happened, I resolved the conflict with the residents whenever possible, calling Linden support only in cases of extreme greifing.

Nonetheless, in spite of having a clean rap sheet, being much more than 30 days old, and having been approved last January to teach classes, the webpage wasn't listing me as an Instructor. (I have taught avatar customization and basic sl marketing classes for months now, and was approved way back by Haney.) So, no big deal, I applied and heard nothing for months (or that is a few weeks after the thing should have been approved or not). I asked Jeska hey, what happened on that application, (one day I was thinking of adding a new course to my class list) and she said I had been turned down by the website, even though I am already an instructor! Jeska said I needed to re-apply if I wanted to be listed on the page, but that she would give me a groups invite in world. I asked her, a little bit alarmed, if it was possible for me to have an SL rap sheet of which I am unaware, and I got no response to this question (which alarmed me further!) This was email to SL though, so it may not have been received or she may still have been trying to find out why it was. SO, anyway, I reapplied as per her suggestion and my application to be an instructor (which I already am) is still pending. :-s

I really would like to be able to see what is in my file. Might I be penalized simply for my opinions in the forum on stuff like the need for arts funding? I really hope not. surely not. Anyone have ideas of what could be happening? I've received no warnings at any time, nor have any lindens contacted me in world or out of world about my behaviour. I wonder what it could be!



*for instance, my first week in game, I didn't know that if you negatively rate an item you are negatively rating the creator's behaviour (that happened when i rated a vendor i thought had failed because the lag was such that i got a message saying I paid for an item, but not a message saying I had received the same item. Thank you to the initially irate resident who nonetheless allowed me to take back the negative rate and replace it with a positive once I figured out what had happened).
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Nethermind Bliss
Raving Xenophile
Join date: 29 Dec 2004
Posts: 79
09-12-2005 09:28
Peresephone,

While I wholeheartedly support residents having the ability to view their "LL rapsheet," I cannot imagine you actually have one, much less anything on one that reflects badly on your person. You are one of the most helpful and patient people in SL, and newcomers would be lucky to get instruction or mentoring from you.

My guess is that it's another case of LL backload - so many correspondences, exponential growth of a business without a fully supported infrastructure to handle all those emails, resumes, applications, etc.
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Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
*sniffs*
09-12-2005 14:06
Aww! Thanks, Nethermind. Great to hear that. :-) You're probably right. Still, (probably as a sign that i'm too self-absorbed) I'd like to see what's in my file if there is anything.
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
09-12-2005 14:14
From: Malachi Petunia
There is a nice system of checks whereby all the LH dialogs are viewable by all LH actives and Liaisons. I've seen Liaisons and LH'ers jump into dialogs to correct or clarify, but I've not seen a single instance of rudeness in all my time on LH.

Usagi, was the question philosophical or have you seen an instance of misconduct? I'm not saying that Jeska should change criteria, but even if Joe BadassGriefer (or alt) was an active member of LH and providing good service, why not? If Joe acted as a jerk in LH the omnipresent Vortex or Wisper (hi folks ;) ) would stomp him fast. LH is a poor choice of places to grief from.

(Okay, I admit to having joked about insta-porting to LH callers and Seburoing them off-world to reduce the support load, but they were only jokes, really!)
I dont think the point is whether or not the player in question is actively griefing from the Live Help platform, that is irrelevant to the discussion. A person who has been a "greifer" should simply not be allowed to be a Live Helper.

A reasonable analogy would be hiring a former sex offender to work in a rape relief clinic. If I get griefed by someone and I call live help, I dont want a griefer (ex or otherwise) answering the call.

It's intimidating and just plain wrong.
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
09-15-2005 07:56
My purpose of this post to make closure to some issues that LH and how they get to be live helpers.As I said there are many fine LH which have been more then helpful to me during my life on sl. Jeska If i insulted LL or the good memebers of the LH staff I am deepy sorry. But I had to asked this questen because after noticing a few of these people i stopped shaked my head wondering why. But person(s) in this case to have a recorded of causing problems and in my mind degrade the LIVE HELP group. Again If I had insulted or in any other way made and in (good status) I am deepy sorry.
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
09-15-2005 08:00
From: Blueman Steele
if they are doing things against TOS then report them... ruin their rapsheet..poof no more problem.

Just report any and all things they do against TOS, because I know you wouldn't complain about people who just didn't conform to your behavior standards.

*pats Usagi on the back.

still trying to figure this one out.....2 or of 3 is not bad
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Lum Kuhr
Registered User
Join date: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 93
09-15-2005 10:14
From: Dianne Mechanique
A reasonable analogy would be hiring a former sex offender to work in a rape relief clinic. If I get griefed by someone and I call live help, I dont want a griefer (ex or otherwise) answering the call.


Sorry, but I beleive your analogy is way OTT, and somewhat unhelpful, a better one would be allowing someone who has previously been done for speeding to later become a driving instructor.

I have no idea what the "rap sheet" contains, how severe something has to be before it is noted and how long such things persist. The current rule is good in that it allows a human being to be the judge rather than some automated scoring system. For example:

Lets suppose that abuse of a push script counts as 3 abuse points, lagging up a sim with a script gets you 10 abuse points and crashing a sim gets you 15. If you have 20 abuse points you are no longer eligible to be a live helper.

Person A writes a faulty script that lags up a sim, they get told off by a linden and in trying to neutralise their creation, they make things worse and the sim crashes, that's 25 points

Person B goes around shooting people with a push gun, they get reported and told off, yet they just ignore the warnings and continue to do this 5 more times, 6 x 3 = 18 points.

Person B is obviously the problematic person here, Person A, would probably have a comment on their file saying "tried to fix it, but ended up crashing the sim in the process". So when later applying to be a live helper (having learned how to script properly, I hope!) a human being at Linden can look at this and choose to let them be a helper anyway, person B will probably be told to get lost.

It's all down to the circumstances of the offence.


In reply to the comment at the top of the page, I too would like to be able to see what Linden have on file about me. In the UK Linden would be required to give this information on demand, for a nominal fee of no more than £10 under the terms of the Data Protection Act. I am not sure how international boundaries come into play here, so the best thing would be to establish if the USA has any similar data protection law in place. Anyone know?
Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
09-26-2005 04:02
From: Lum Kuhr



In reply to the comment at the top of the page, I too would like to be able to see what Linden have on file about me. In the UK Linden would be required to give this information on demand, for a nominal fee of no more than £10 under the terms of the Data Protection Act. I am not sure how international boundaries come into play here, so the best thing would be to establish if the USA has any similar data protection law in place. Anyone know?

This is a issue we will never unknow for sure.
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
09-26-2005 05:58
From: someone
In reply to the comment at the top of the page, I too would like to be able to see what Linden have on file about me. In the UK Linden would be required to give this information on demand, for a nominal fee of no more than £10 under the terms of the Data Protection Act. I am not sure how international boundaries come into play here, so the best thing would be to establish if the USA has any similar data protection law in place. Anyone know?
In the US there are the Fair Credit and Reporting Act (rev. 2002) regarding your access to credit databases holders such as Equifax, there is also the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 which covers access to your medical information. But the Privacy Act of 1974 and the Freedom of Information Act (rev. 1996) apply only to government actions and data. Outside of these, I don't belive that there are any statutes which compel non-govermental organizations to provide you with information they have on you.

It would be interesting, albiet likely expensive and tedious, for you to test the applicability of the UK law to US firms transacting business in the UK. My guess is that there are some international agreements to prevent the UK Data Protection Act from "bleeding" over into US corporations so you'd likely be wasting your time. But you can't really know until you try.

You might be able to find some relevant information over at www.eff.org (whose founder happens to be on the board of Linden Lab). Good luck.