Group Logic

I wonder sometimes, shouldn't this forum really be renamed "Group Logic"?

It seems to me that all politics in SL revolve around groups and their functionality with respect to land / lsl / etc.

Shouldn't we really just be debating here how group functionality works?

I think the point is especially relevant because LL once said that "Politics would not be a part of this game" or something to that effect.

When, in fact, the group functionality is all about politics.

It's interesting, too, how group functionality has pretty much come to a stand still since those statements..

I think there is further irony in that probably all of the people who have complained bitterly against politics in SL are a part of groups.

I wonder some things myself.

Should I just put you into the forum-stalkers list now and be done with it?

Please don't use this as a forum for one-on-one conversation. I'll thank you to stay on topic.

buh bye.

Just like how people group together in RL to pursue their factional interests. Gee the last time I checked, it was called politics there too.

Oh, I agree, now that I think about it is rather stupidly obvious.

It's just amusing because if you know the history you'd realise how people swore up and down that if politics became a part of SecondLife they'd quit in an instant, when really.. it's always been there.

I believe I remember other people saying is that if a political system was formerly imposed via either a democracy, aristocracy, etc. by LL on SL as a whole; they would quit.

Well, if you're an ALT of an older user you may remember back in 2004 that people were a lot more extreme than that.

Well, that may be true and some people may have said just that. An avoidance position - such as that - is a bit silly. Because, if we are including the actions as any informal group as politics equal to the actions of a formal (virtual) state, and we seek to avoid politics at all costs; then I would think we end up avoiding all online games (and MMOEs ). I cannot think of one without various coteries bickering at each other in the background.

Oh for sure. I've always been for people coming together and organizing in SL. I am a huge proponent of zoning.

I know, this thread sounds kind of dumb, but really, you should go back and check out those threads and how LL reacted to them: "oh don't worry folks! no politics in SL! none at all!", when probably behind the scenes they were going "oh **** hope they don't notice there already is!"

But, seriously, I think this is exactly why group functionality was never improved - it was because of that heightened sensitivity.

I am looking at them and they are explicitly about player run governments and not about informal groups of players. Please, be honest. How do expect SL - or for that matter any game or any environment - to control how players group together? Is SL going to tell us Texas players, "Oh no, you can't meet up once a quarter, das ist verboten!"

The lack of group tools? Checking the feature enhancement page (searching for group), group related feature requests are definately low demand items according to number of votes. Might it possible that LL has not improved the tools because the demand is not there?

I've observed several political organisms in world that extend beyond group functionality. Perhaps those could be called, for the moment, "meta groups."

One of the studies I'd like the Law Society Observers to undertake is to look analytically at the internal regulatory processes of those "meta groups." I'm just begining to explore organizations that involve multiple groups.

Perhaps the most complex is the Neualtenburger protocols, which involve developed rules, procedures, dispute resolution methods, even covenant and deed documents. Inevitably, factions within such organizations develop in order to foster the factional interest. I think this is "politics," but others may disagree.

Another field of study that comes to mind are the multiple sims organized around the "Gor" ethos and lifestyle. I hypothesize that one will find multiple groups within the Gorean culture, which collaborate in ways that are both formal and informal. Within that broad culture, there seem to be differences of opinion about standards of behavior and speech. I suspect an observer will detect factional efforts within that tribal culture that go beyond group dynamics.

I'm sure readers know of other "meta-groups" that are emerging around a variety of interests and lifestyles in SL.

The "hard wired" code supporting groups is only part of what the Lindens have created in SL for the development of "meta group" organizations. Allowing "open source" development has allowed player-created tools that assist "meta groups," and the human dynamics that cannot (yet) be coded into a simulation continue to operate. From the interaction of all that, self-organizing subsystems, including "meta groups," are emerging.

Also emerging from the same conditions are political efforts, which seem to be a natural consequence of competing interests over scarce "mind share" and other resources. Much like RL.

I submit that the systematic, organized study of this is the science of politics, hence this forum titled "Political Science" reaches beyond the study of the group dynamics that LL has wired into the present release.

Other thoughts?

Frank

If I happen to hold the same opinion as someone else on the forums, it's not because of any group think or group logic, it's because my opinion happens to coincide with theirs. Frankly, I couldn't give a shit what anyone else's opinion is or if everyone in the world disagrees. My opinion is my opinion because... it's my opinion. I suspect many are the same. And ya know, maybe if the group adhere to a certain logic, they might just be on to something. Something people like you and Prokofy don't seem to get at all.

So by all means, simplify your life and world views and lump everyone together into a mob if you want, but you're plain wrong.

What Kris said.

*firelight dances off stone walls; feasting and dancing go long into the night*

*a bespectacled, lab-coated Mr Lardner observes carefully*
.
.
.

"So, does this collar signify some sort of social standing?"

*downcast eyes and whimpering*

"Ok, let's try someone else. You sir, what does that tattoo signify?"

*no answer; fist slams down on table*

"Well! Perhaps we'll see if anyone will complete my survey in the dungeon?"
.
.
.


Sorry Mr Lardner... I've never been to the Gor sims myself, but... ah, if you ever take field notes I'm sure there is great potential for a comedy goldmine...

Desmond, if I were doing the actual fieldwork in Gorean lands, I'd envision myself leaving the specs and lab coat behind. A well-worn leather jacket and pants, with a battered but sturdy brimmed hat might work better ... recall that Indiana Jones was an archaeologist.

Objective observations of cultural laws in the various Gorean cities would likely come from one more familiar with the culture than am I. Volunteers are welcome, of course.

Frank

You can't have more than two people associating without having "politics", because all politics means is determining who gets what, and what limitations are set on each person. That's an intersecting but non-identical set with what happens with SL groups (i.e., [1, 2, 3] and [3, 4, 5]).

SL groups are used for a variety of purposes, primarily: 1) Chat rooms of like-minded individuals, friends, or event announcements, 2) Land access control, 3) Landlord/tenant contract enforcement, 4) Putting an amusing tagline under your name.

Only #2 really has anything to do with politics. #3 belongs in Land and Economy. #1 and #4 are Off-Topic.

Meanwhile, the actual "politics" in SL are totally irrelevant to groups: The "FIC" conspiracy whackjobs. Various unprofessional business owners sniping at each other because they're upset someone else is making money where they'd like to. Assholes who think their personal fetishes or lack thereof should be inflicted on others.

FL politics get weird when converted to SL: In SL the Statist Communists can't make their sims into abbatoirs with tens of millions of dead like they have in FL, so at least it's safe to allow them to find out their economics just don't work. Luckily, you can't smell the unwashed filthy patchouli-oiled Hippy Communists, but when there's no need for food or housing, they become irrelevant, since that's all they ever tried to provide (and still failed). Statist Capitalists can't use force, so they're not really statists; I don't know what that makes them, except very very frustrated. Libertarian politics are the only ones that don't really change, because SL's a perfect example of a world where nobody can use force on anyone, and all economic activity is consensual.

A true "SL in-world politics" study would include examining things like why so many people get catty when there's more than one female-appearing avatar in a room. Study the actual interactions of people, not the particular feature set of one piece of software.

Greetings - since the topic of politics or government in Gorean lands has been raised as a theoretical question, I will be happy to cut to the chase and provide objective data from a primary source, so that needless preliminary research may be avoided.

First, Gorean culture is based on 26 novels written by John Lange under the pen name John Norman. The titles are all in the form "xxxx of Gor". Norman's writing style includes detailed descriptions of the physical and cultural aspects of the planet Gor and its inahbitants. With this rich three shelf feet of source material, it considerably more feasible for a person to simulate life on Gor than on, say, the planet Trantor of Asimov's Foundation series, whose description is by comparison sparse and where many aspects of every day life and business are by necessity glossed over.

Secondly, there are many different ways in which this project can be and, in SL, *is* approached by the parties who are engaged in it. Some of us are interested in living the Gorean lifestyle and culture online and off to the closest degree we can come, for our own personal growth and satisfaction. Others are interested in undiluted Gorean Role Play, where a person can be and is forced by the rules of role play to endure situations not to his or her liking in order to keep the role play valid. There are various degrees to which the culture of the books of Norman is lived faithfully, depending on the goals of those forming that particular community. For example, if dwell is a major goal, some might dilute the culture by combining it with other alternative lifestyle choices to broaden the appeal of a given sim. These are all rightful options of each community that pursues Gorean life to one or another degree in SL.

What we all have in common is that there is a large body of printed literature documenting in considerable detail what it is that we are talking about and doing, and what its underlying philosophy is. There is no need to research this to understand it - simply read the literature. What can be and is an interesting topic of investigation is to study the compromises and tradeoffs each community has chosen to make in implementing its preferred way to approach the problem; but there is not major disagreement on what Gor is, except that doubtless there could be a community that uses the word Gor but refers to some entirely online invention with little or no relationship to the planet and culture described in this body of literature.

So, we can speak in terms of what Gor is like as described in the books.

Gor has no planetary government. The planet is in effect owned and controlled by the insectoid alien species which *moved* this planet into our solar system and, as one may expect, controls the sorts of awesome powers necessary to transport planets between stars and keep objects as massive as planets moving in non Newtonian orbits. This species (the Priest Kings) has populated Gor with humans originating on Earth, where they have been thriving for over 10,000 years. The PK's basically leave humans alone, but they have specifically forbidden the development of various technologies. Contention between humans is pretty much limited to up close and personal conflict resolution. Advanced weapons, including even small arms and certainly explosives and WMD's, are forbidden, and anyone observed experimenting with or deploying such things is detected by the PKs' surveillance system and summarily destroyed. Edged weapons, spears, bows and crossbows are permitted, as is use of local animals for cavalry.

Over those 10,000 years it has not proven economically practical for any group of people to establish hegemony over a great portion of the planet's surface. In the majority of the area, the basic model for governance is a city state, whose inhabitants swear an oath to the Home Stone of that city and who defend it with enthusiasm and elan.

Each city, being sovereign, sets in place whatever laws it seesfit. Over time there has been a good deal in common between laws of Gorean cities, but there remain variations - for example, thieves are punished harshly in most cities, but in one, Port Kar, there is actually a respected Guild of Thieves whose members proudly display markings of their membership on their faces. There are also regions in which other forms of tribal culture, reminiscent of the nomadic tribes of the middle East, those of North America, or of the warlords of ancient Scandinavia, live exuberantly.

Populated regions are either governed by law, or governed by force, depending on the choices of their inhabitants. The people of various regions trade with one another, and at times there is conflict such as raiding or small scale war between groups. Global conflict is not a Gorean thing; small grudges and skirmishes are.

Speaking for the city named Glorious Ar in SL, we are organized much like Ar, a major city in the books. The city is ruled by an Administrator, advised by a High Council whose members are leaders of the High Castes of the City. Productive work is organized within these Castes. There are laws; our laws are basically those of the books which were valid in Ar, and are quite extensive. We have Warriors to enforce the law; Magistrates and courts to interpret them; and the Administrator as the final court of appeal within our city. There are also Rules of Role Play which define the interface between the conduct of everyday life in a human city, and the particular realities imposed by the program called Second Life. For example, people are killed on Gor and when they are killed they stay dead. However, the program SL has made it impossible for the living to inherit all of the possessions and works such as builds that were left behind by the dead. As a result, we have chosen in our Rules of RP to implement death as a temporary thing, so that the death of a builder does not annihilate half a city. Compromises are always necessary.

That is what we have done in Ar. Other cities have organized themselves as they have seen fit, with varying degrees of faithfulness to the books that document the culture, as is their right.

The common thread, however, is that in each case we are simulating to some degree a place that is well documented in the literature, living to some degree the culture that is described there, and operating to one degree or another under an organized system of laws, law enforcement, and governance, even if it is simply the law and rule of steel. This has been going on since the first Gorean community appeared in SL; it was considerably enhanced by the establishment of the original sim of Port Kar in Spring of 2005 (now defunct - the sim now called Port Kar is much different) and followed in short order by others, namely Port Cos, The Wilderness, Tharna, Glorious Ar, Ko-ro-ba, and numerous others, in approximately that order (some of which endure as originally conceived while others have changed, disappeared, and/or been replaced in name but not necessarily location.)

Ar was created in May of 2005 in cooperation with the original Port Kar, and operated under laws of Port Kar until September of 2005 at which time new laws and rules that were intended to be much more faithful to the books of Gor were promulgated. We have been governing ourselves as a Gorean City and enforcing the laws one would expect to find in a Gorean City ever since. At present there are on the order of a dozen communities occupying a sim or more of SL land, who are implementing one or another interpretation of Gorean life and culture. For the most part, each is ruled in a manner that will at least be familiar or recognizable to anyone who has read the books.

I hope this has clarified this topic. For specific information about the structure of Law and Rule in Glorious Ar, please see the information posted on the website at http://shadowfyre.com/portkar/html/index.php where both documents are available as PDF or HTML documents.

Those interested in studying the matter in more detail are encouraged to visit Ar and the other Gorean lands, specifically including the Gorean Academy at the hub in Southern Ar wherea library exists, complemented by the libraries in other Gorean cities. I regrettably do not visit these Forums often, but am available in SL to answer questions or make referrals.

I wish you well - Fidelio Matador, Administrator of Ar

Technically groups would function in the way of non-governmental entities. They can set up their own little societies and function as they please. However, to truly be "political" they would need a way to attempt to force, coerce, or convince SL as a whole in some way. Since there is no central government, per se, there is no way that these groups can function for any legislative or social gains or losses - the definition of politics.

I think all the studies undertaken on group dynamics fall square into the sociological and not political sociological realms.

Greetings, Greenmind - I do not quite understand; the State of Oklahoma is without question a Government, yet it does not seek to rule the US let alone the world. The City of Tulsa is a Government, go there and break an ordinance and see what happens, yet it has an even smaller scope. As long as there *is* always the option of creating fresh lebensraum by commissioning new islands, and as long as there *is* no global government in SL, it will remain possible for colonists to migrate to open territories and create new sovereign nations here as they have been doing on Earth for aeons. Whereas, when someone *does* propose to rule the entire world or the entirety of SL, even if they dissemble and call such absolute and inescapable rule something innocuous like "democracy", it is all over. I had thought the purpose of this inquiry was to study organized structures of law and governance in SL, none of which can by definition gain global scope, for there is no mechanism of force whereby a land owner may be coerced into submitting to a global rule. Regrets if I have misinterpreted its purpose... but of course global rule, other than by the owner of Linden Labs, can never exist unless some mechanism of force is available ... just as it is here on the real Earth

Be well

Influence and rule are two entirely separate concepts. When we're talking individual residents, as I think we're doing in this thread, the goal of interaction with a government would to be to influence through action. The State of Oklahoma is the government, the citizen of Oklahoma would be the ones seeking to influence it. The city of Tulsa is the government, the citizens of Tulsa would be the ones seeking certain outcomes at city council meetings.

That is politics. The desiring of certain outcomes through interaction at whatever scale that you set it.

Certainly individual groups have politics as each member of a group seeks to set the outcomes of that group through its individual rules. But, beyond that scope, except in the sims that have adopted governmental structures and tenant/owner agreements, there is no government on any scale to influence in SL. There are desired outcomes but they're not achieved through groups trying to influence the rules of SL as a whole.

If you've not already, take a look at Neualtenburg, a political structure created within SL by its participants, which exercises jurisdiction over one sim so far. A Case Study of Neualtenburg provides a summary of their political structure. More information is available in its own group forum, Neualtenburg Projekt

[/URL]

I've spent a bit of time Neualtenburg. When and if they open their second sim, hopefully I'll have the real life money to purchase some land (because first I have to get a paid account) and move there.

Neualtenburg is definitely one of the examples of citizen politics that I referring to but it's still on a sim-wide scale and not a worldwide scale.