Laptop users are screwed

I have used my laptop for Second Life since April of 2005. It does not have an ATI or an nVidia driver, but has worked fine, except for some crashes when the hard drive got too full or needed to be cleaned up. One minute I am in SL happily living my SL life, and half a day later I cannot get on at all, or apparently, ever. When I contacted SL help by email, I was told that "you are lucky that SL ever worked with that vid card and it will not work with the newest version." Not helpful, not supported, no solution, screwed.

There is only one laptop, a $2,300 or more Dell, that has the required software, and frankly, I cannot afford one. Some of us are on disability and use SL as a link to a more "normal" life. We are the very ones who cannot afford such a laptop upgrade, and some of us just cannot sit at a desktop for any amount of time.

I, too, have a significant amout of money invested in SL only to find that it is wasted or lost now. I am angry, frustrated, hurt... After a year and a half I am very "attached" to my SL life and friends.

I feel hopeless about this, and I, too, feel like SL doesn't care about those of us on laptops or left out with the new version.

I could and have just cried. What a loss to my already restricted life.

Hey

While I hear you and feel your pain, I have to say that I have tried SL on TWO laptops and it works fine on one, okish on the other, BUT... having said that they are both fairly high end laptops.

One has a NVIDIA Quadro FX Go1400, this one works brilliantly, and now i've upgraded the RAM, it works just as well, if not better, than my old desktop did (apart from those bloody mousepads!)

The other has a ATI FireGL V3200, I cannot use the Avatar Vertex Program on this and it took me sodding ages to update the drivers and get ripple water back after the update. This laptop cost over £1900, yet doesn't work nearly as well with SL (apart from navigating, the mousepad on IBM's are FAB!) than the one above, which cost around £900 (but it was used!)

I was told by Lee Linden that SL do not support ATI/FireGL, fine fine, thats fine, but a lot of people DO need to use laptops, and it's pretty unfair that they don't get the support that desktop users do, BUT... LL cannot cater for "maybes". The average user of SL more than likely uses a desktop, so therefore their priorities are to make sure that it runs smoothly... on a deskop.

I really do feel bad for you, I was at my wits end trying to update my drivers and get SL to work after the update without crashing, or lagging so bad I had to shut down my entire laptop and reboot for it to start working again!

One thing I have noticed, is that SL now eats CPU for breakfast, lunch, dinner AND snacks, I mean it was fairly heftily used before, but it now uses like 92% ALL the time! It's insane! Has someone uber changed in the way the program is running?

Do forgive if my post doesn't make sense, I am not a techno-literate person!

Agreed. I just got the new Apple Macbook Pro and it actually works better than my desktop.

Sorry that you are having problems

I have a laptop, and it works fine.

Actually, I have two laptops that work in SL One NVidia and one ATI chipsetted.

The fundamental problem is that most laptops use embedded graphics chipsets that are, quite simply, nowhere near good enought to be used for rendering complex 3d environments such as Second Life.

It would be nice if there was a software-only renderer built into the SL client, but it would run at a fraction of the framerate of the openGL/hardware system, and you'd never be able to do stuff like lighting in it. Also, this would tax the CPU even further, and, on most laptops - especially those that have low-end graphics chipsets the CPU is a slower version as well, so they'd be doubly screwed.


I'm lucky - my main laptop was bought for me by my enployer, and is a very nice high-end dell with X600 ATI chipset, and if I run SL at a normal resolution, I get framerates in the mid to high teens, which is great.

But Linden Labs haven't arbitrarily 'decided' not to make SL work on laptops - it is simply that most laptops are just not up to the task, and, if the graphical quality of SL is ever going to improve, then older hardware is going to be left to fall at the wayside.

Oh, and there are lots of laptops that are very capable of running SL, although you are quite correct in that they cost 2-3 times the price of an equivalent desktop. Although, the same is true across the range of laptop performance - you will always pay a lot more for them than an equivalent desktop machine.

My Powerbook G4, my Macbook Pro, and my friend's Macbook all run SL fairly well. The Macbook is the 1.83ghz White model, costing $1100 off-the-shelf, and SL works on it pretty darn good, from what I've seen. But, if I were you I'd try to track down somebody who actually owns one and not make a leap of faith.

Plus, with Boot Camp you can run Windows natively (i.e., not through an emulator) on your Macbook. So you can even run SL on Windows if you'd prefer.

So, you want a new laptop that runs Windows and SL just fine? Get a Mac.

Fiona try logging onto the new 10.0.34 ( and dont give up after the 1st ten crashes )

Although LL are adamant that they have changed nothing significant in it - it has changed from the original release of 10.0 to the effect that I can log in for stretches now ( sometimes up to 30-40 minutes witout crashing )

I was like you when 10.0 came out - crash crash crash - 10 seconds in and crash.

I also found that after logging into 10.0.34 long enough for my inventory to load ( then a crash ) made me survive longer in subsequent sessions.

I am capable of running with all the settings turned to low and all of the settings turned to high and still crash at roughly the same time so I find the graphic driver theory somewhat hard to swallow.

Another thing I have found which seems to prolong my sessions before a crash is switching off trees and object-object oclusion culling.

I am awaiting wednesdays release to see if LL have continued changing the thing they "havent" changed to make it any better for me - or if they are going to change it the other way and kill me stone dead again.

Satellite pro - ATI chipset

Good luck

I use my laptop and have noticed no chage in the quality of the SL interface or game play experience. As a matter of fact, it's been a lot less laggy since the lighting updates. So I guess it HAS changed...but for the better.

Hope yours laptop troubles get better

I am a very dear friend of Fiona, and the lack of consideration shown at Linden for what people can afford to use, is appaling. Esp for people who own laptops. I have heard of some others who also have problems with their laptops. If they have a problem with their computers of an "update" by Linden, then it should be Linden's responsibility to make it compatable with reason. They do not seem to realize that many people can not afford to constantly upgrade their hardware. *especialy* if they are on laptops! Now, I started SL at the first of the year, with a ATI 7000 series with 32 meg memor, and a driver upgrade. which enabled me to be on, abet not very smoothly. Soon, I was lucky enough to catch a GeoForce 256K card on sale and a big rebate. Which enabled me to afford it, on a fixed income. I have been running well every since. Admitedly the ATI card was a few years old, (mabye even 5 LOL). But up till SL, it has been running fine for me, and doing what I wanted to do. But when you block a computer which is only a bit over a year old from running, esp a laptop. which means not just replacing a video card, but an entire computer, something is very, very wrong! The people at Linden, should take another look at what they are doing, and rellize the inpact and strain they are having on some of the people who enjoy SL so much. I can understand their view on not wanting to support each and every video card, out there. I also realize that ATI and GeoForce have the largest share of the video market. And as one of the others mentioned, was Intel, which is also a major brand as well, that should be supported. If the "mininium" recommended memory requirement for SL is 64 meg memory, they should at least be supporting any of those cards by GeoForce, ATI and Intel that meets the memory requirements set at the first of the year. Also, they should not force people to update. If they can not handle the latest update, they should be at least able to install the previous one and do what they can. They may not have the "latest features" such as "flex prims" but they are at least on SL. Linden need to take a hard look at the people they affect, especaly those with computers which meet their "standards" in all ways but one, such as video. And learn to be more compassionate and caring about their members, esp. those on fixed income and laptops! Thank you for reading my comments,
Adeel Mun

What do you expect LL to do? There is only so much they can do with the coding. If they just left it the way it was when they started then nothing would ever get better. As video drivers and graphic options get better SL developers will have to move forward with the options or be left in the dust.

You can't just have an older compatibility version of SL and a up to date version. The two will not work together. The only way to do it is make 2 different grids. One for old equipment and one that meets the current standards. Being the majority of SL users have no problem with keeping up with the times I would say majority rules (as with anything else in a democratic or rational world)

It is a modern 3D program after all.

If you buy anything today then think about tomorrow.

http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/r05/ri05.asp

My laptop is less than 2 years old.

Am I expected to buy a new laptop every 6 months just because SL requires state of the minute video cards ? ( Whats next - minimum requirement a 1G network connection - do I have to change my IP in 3 months - not an easy task in a country where 1 company holds a monopoly on telecoms )

And how come I have had absolutely no trouble running any other piece of software that uses intensive 3d graphics

( the makers of those software understand that not everybody lives in Silicon valley and accomodate people who do not have the funds or inclination to upgrade every other month )

As for having two seperate grids - I disagree

Both the new lighting features and flexi prims are client side effects.

It does not take a large stretch of the imagination to create a client that says "ok - that data is for features I do not support - ignore it - or request alternate data from the sim"

An SL lite version would be feasible - but would require development costs ( in my oppinion the only reason it hasnt been created ) and would, in the long term serve in LL's best interest as people with lower spec machines could at least log in to try it out and still have the carrot in front of them saying "if you think this is good - update your system - you will see better".

From the outset of 1.10 ( when it was called something else in preview ) LL's attitude has, as mentioned earlier in this thread "been appalling".

Their mindset is obviously set on "lets put in the bells and whistles and become the greatest 3d experienc in software - and be-dammed those people who cannot keep up"

In my oppinion it will be their downfall - soon they will introduce an upgrade that goes too far and limits SL to the top 1 or 2% of PC owners and LL will be forced to back pedal very rapidly to develop something that everybody else can use.

Why not do it now why the opportunity is there - create a Lite version and keep it running with as many of the new features as is possible with a PC that normal people buy in the shops ( You can still go into a shop today and buy my laptop - or a "new" pc with a card that can run 95% of software, but not SL )

Set a limit for the real SL and set a much lower limit for Lite SL and keep to it.

Considering that Laptops are quite popular I find it curious that this little gem - that Linden obviously knows about - IS NOT mentioned in the system requirements.

Shouldn't there be a little bit - highlighted - LAPTOP OWNERS should double check with the manufacturers to see which video card their bespoke system was based upon.

Hah i have a laptop and my common framerate in laggy sims is 7 at least, woo!

Why? They give specific system specs you need. What is the problem? People are to lazy to read the system specs on the laptop they are buying/have?

Why should they warn laptop users? I am confident in my ability to buy a DESKTOP system that also will not run SL. I in fact own one.

I have 4 computers. 2 of them will not run SL - One a desktop and one a laptop.
Both are less than 2 years old. Both have integrated graphics chips.

If you're gonna buy a laptop and you want to play 3-D games, buy a laptop that can.

My OTHER laptop does just fine - it has an ATI X1400 Radeon Mobility. With the recent Omega Drivers based on Catalyst 6.5, it does just fine.

I have a Macbook ($1100 Variant), It has an intel GMA950 Graphics chipse, which LL does not officially support, and has said they will not work around. I did not expect SL to work or run at all.


Having said that, In busy Areas I can pull 5 FPS and in areas with medium buildings and few avatars I can draw 40 FPS. Hardly screwed on a laptop that LL does not support.

Same numbers for Both OS X and Win XP.

I also know that the Radeon 200M chipset for mobile computers can easily handle SL, and is infact present in computers priced Sub $800.

You can also get Laptops with Dedicated 6200 or 7300 graphics for prices of just above $1000.

Edit - Which is way more than SL needs

Also, if you really want a dirt cheap notebook that isnt absolutely massive and will run SL pretty well, The Compaq V2000Z when configured with 512 MB of memory (A minimum for SL) Can be had for just $500 After Rebates ($600 before rebate)

I dont reccomend you buy this laptop because I havent done full research and have not fully read enough about it, this is mainly a demonstration to show that you CAN get SL to run DECENTLY on a cheap modern laptop, if you pick your cards right.

Also since it is an ATI Part that has most of the features of modern graphics cards, you will not have to worry about compatability with SL, as that is assured.

Another depressed laptop user who can't use SL anymore!
I thought I was alone!
I had a desktop pc but because i'm moving, I don't want a hefty machine in my room (something about clutter and people not wanting to buy the house - Meh.)
So i'm living without Second Life for about a year
I found that it wasn't just SL that won't work on my Laptop. I'm a graphic designer, and i use Maya from time to time.
But i'm not a computer whizz, and the jargen flies straight over my head!

I was completely *beeped* off when I was told that my laptop is great for Todays 3D gaming, and I'd heard of SiS before so I thought "Oh, cool.. I'll take YOUR word for it." and it's completely the opposite.. And being a Student, i'm gunna be in debt until i'm about 60, so there's no chance of a Brand Spanking new high tech fan-dabby-dozee Laptop.

I'm counting the days until I can use SL again.

But I feel Laptop users pain. And it blimmin' hurts.

God.. at least eliminate the coding that automatically locks out users with other graphic cards than those "required." You say nothing has been changed, but I have been on SL since April 2005 and never had problems before, including the day before the upgrade. Eliminate the part of the program that decides whether we can get into SL with our current cards, then let us deal with the freeze-ups, lagging, etc. Something HAS changed, and it isn't nice.

For those of you so very hard of people without the "right" hardware, I am very glad that you have the money to adjust to such changes. Some of us, on disability, etc, just don't. I know.. life sucks and then you die. It is just too damned bad that consideration was only made for the high end users.

Through Curiousity, I reinstalled SL onto my laptop, and to my amazement (after my little rant!) SL runs.. Linden says it does NOT support SiS cards.. Either someone answered my prayers up there, or my laptop had a Graphics Card sex change.

Either way i'm a little puzzled..

BUT it is VERY slow. But i think this is due to lack of memory. I need to get more memory.. I think..

But i'm not holding my breath. SL probably won't work on the next run...

Fiona, I wouldn't give up hope! Keep trying.

This is not uncommon.... The first thing anyone should do if an update kills your ability to log in, or stay logged in would be to deinstall - reboot and reinstall.

I had this happen a few updates back (1.8.something) and the reinstall cleared the problem up.

As for my laptop, apart from odd orange flickers during sunrise/sunset SL seems to run smoother and the graphics are better.. (the terrain textures are fuzzy though... weird)

I guess I am one of the lucky ones but my laptop isn't cheap, the only reason I can own it is because of the UK Goverments tax benefit scheme which allows employees in certain sectors to buy a computer over 3 years with a reduction in VAT, otherwise I'd be looking to build a new desktop... or at least upgrade the video card.

I own an ACER Travelmate 8104 (8100 series) laptop.
Specs: RAM 1GB, CPU Pentium M 2.0 GHZ, Graphics card ATI X700

This computer is about a year old. It was considered "High end" then. Currently ACER sells one other laptop that is *much* faster (8200). I use this machine for my 3D work RL, but it also doubles as my gaming machine. I play Battlefield II, Quake III and other 3D intensive games online and get an average framerate far above 40 FPS in most situations. And that is at a resolution of 1680x1050! I admit now that I do not know how SL's sims interact with client computers. In Battlefield II I do know that sixtyfour people can hunt each other with all hell breaking loose on with rockets, aircraft, bullets and body parts flying in all directions with little change in my framerate. This is not highend compared to any desktop system, but is decent in my opinion. In SL, I am lucky if I get 30 FPS anywhere below 200 meters. In my skypod at 600 meters I average about 50-70fps. Typically this machine averages about 11-30 fps in SL. With all the constant changes and updates, I am in doubt that the programmers have time to optimize very much. But that's all just speculation; only they really know what's going on. We just see the apparent results of their work.
I know this doesn't help those of you who own laptops, but if you are in the market, I would highly recommend the ACER Travelmate 8200 series if you can afford it. SL is HARD on all laptop systems. I use SL to test systems I build because it taxes every component in a computer like no other software I've seen You want a true stress test? Run SL for 24 hours. (not kidding).

I am aware that SL is not a first person shooter. It would appear that high framerates are not a real priority in SL. Anything above 30fps is not really necessary as far as I am concerned. This is not a complaint on my part. I just thought I'd share my SL experience with you.
NOTE: Since SL allows users to build content instead of trained professionals, we are going to have problems with textures and objects. I've seen many instances where objects have textures that are FAR too large as well as objects that have way too many prims. Why do you think there is no way to import obects into SL? You think the Sim is slow now, you wouldn't want to see it with custom imported creations