Allowing .OGG Sound Uploads

I would like to see SL allow the sound format it converts upload .WAV files to (.OGG) as an option for uploading. At the moment we can only upload .WAV, but I figure why not add the format it converts to anyhow? And for that matter.. add .MP3 uploading too, since it is so popular.

The benefit of uploading in .OGG format would be ~ sound editors can work with this loss format from the beginning, not work with a high quality .WAV and have it converted to a lossy format. I know this doesn't sound like a real problem.. and it isn't so much a problem. I had never been bothered by, nor had I even noticed, the loss before. But currently I'm working on a project that requires smooth looping notes. These are flat solid notes, maybe monotone is the right word, and the loss of the conversion is very apparent.

If you're familiar with sound editing, try this out yourself. I've used Sound Forge, GoldWave, and even Winamp to play the original .WAV loop on my computer, and on each it sounds perfect. You can download a sample here. My friends can hear the defect after uploading so I'm sure it's not just me. You'll hear it if you try this.

I have 88 seamless looping .WAV files like that, each 0.5 seconds long. I uploaded them in the preview grid and they all got seams (because of the lossy conversion, looping would now play small clicks between each repeat). I thought maybe it was the preview grid so I uploaded a few on the main grid. Same issue. Trust me, I've tried lots and lots of things, spoken to many people, and am 99% sure the issue is the conversion.

However, if I was able to work in the .OGG format from the beginning, and create cross faded loops from that, loops can sound clean and seamless. SL simply won't upload .OGG though, at this point. If it could, it wouldn't need to convert the format, and the sound would keep it's quality; the loops would stay seamless. So I'm trying to make a push for this addition and adding a proposal for it in feature voting.

This isn't going to get changed unless there's a lot of demand for it, and as it's not a big problem for (what seems like) anyone but me, I'm not hopeful about it. I will be releasing my product with 88 broken loops and ask for the support of those who want to see it fixed to go and vote on the feature.

edit: Propsal Link
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Can anyone confirm this?: SL converts uploaded .WAV files to Vorbis 11025Hz .OGG
If that is indeed true, it's no wonder converting from 44.1kHz .WAV is so lossy.
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OggVorbis I can see, MP3 no chance. MP3 requires a liscence that gets rather costly. OggVorbis is liscense free and open source so I can see it happening.

Then Linden Labs would have to enforce exactly what bitrate or range of bitrates are acceptable for upload, people won't read this and continually complain OGG uploading is broke, someone clever will figure out how to stuff more audio data in the file than was originally intended and their ultra high quality five minute OGGs will slow down the grid for everyone else...

Much like WAV, you can inquire the audio length in OggVorbis. Also I think anything larger the 500k would throw up a red flag.

I didn't know that about .MP3s.. interesting. And Eep thanks for the link. You bring up an idea there I didn't consider~ allowing lower-than-44.1kHz .WAV uploads. That would probably solve my problem as well! It's an shame I can't change my proposal now >..<

Another little thing about MP3s: there is no original source to work from, only a list of standards and a description on how it works. Every MP3 codec (codec = coder/decoder) is reverse engineered from these list of standards. This is why that MP3 you encoded in iTunes may not sound as good in WinAMP or other players and vice versa. Since OggVorbis is an opensource project, every OggVorbis codec shares the same roots with different styles of optimization so there is little quality varience between players making it ideal for sharing audio and audio playback within games. Not to mension OggVorbis' quality is superior to standard mp3 and imo equal to that of mp3PRO without the liscensing fees (a 128kbit mp3 = 64kbit OggVorbis file).

The thing is, whether images or audio, SL does not support compressed formats.

Not true. When you upload a texture it gets converted to jpeg, a compressed lossy image format. When you upload a sound it gets converted to OggVorbis, a compressed lossly audio format. I think it would be better refrased as: SL doesn't support user made compressed lossy formats for upload.

It would be better if SL just supported ZIPped WAVs, like Active Worlds does, that can retain seamlessness. SL already supports compressed JPG/TGA uploading so images aren't really an issue, though it would be nice to have masks optionallly separate, also like Active Worlds, so they can be applied to ANY texture:

1. increasing usability without having to manually add a mask to EVERY image in an external image editor
   
2. and saving bandwidth from having to upload another image with a different mask each time.
   

aDen.. I did a project a while back and had no problems with the wav loops I uploaded. I made seamless x-faded loops using Cubase, saved them as mono wav's and then uploaded them. The loops worked just fine. I found it to be a frustrating and severely constricted format to work in. Now if SL would support Soundfonts & MIDI input at the very least or better yet key-mapped multisamples in AKAI / Halion / Kontakt / EMU / Gigasampler compatible formats. *THEN* we'd be getting somewhere.

That sounds rather antiquated. Not optimal since a lossy format would give similar quality at a fraction of the bandwidth.






It may save bandwidth at upload time, and save bandwidth when downloading the images (as the mask could be recycled across multiple faces), but it would almost double the amount of bandwidth required to transmit objects; as it would require two asset keys per face. It's not really valid to change the mask on a texture dynamicly. Its not that hard to put masks on images.

A zipped WAV wouldn't give ANY quality loss, however. Also, zipped WAVs are comparable to MP3s/OGGs in size, and there are other compression formats that are better like RAR and ACE.

A key is 32 bytes vs. ~50 THOUSAND bytes (conservatively low) for another texture with a different mask. Which bandwidth tradeoff do you want? I'll take the measly key, thank you very much!

There is no evidence to support that (and i shall present evidence to contradict it). If Zip is so good at compressing wav's why did MP3 & OGG catch on? Zip is an older, free, standard after all.

I ripped the first track of one of my cds.
The wav file was 26MB.
The zip of the wav was 24MB (at max compression)
The monkey audio encode of it was 16MB (lossless)
The ogg at 146kb/s was 2.6MB

So lets see, zip got 8%, monkey 38%, and ogg 90%.

Hmmm Alazarin, can you download the seamless loop I am working with and try what you did with Cubase for it? I dont have Cubase to test it but.. it'd be nice to know if its just my apps o.O Then test it looped in SL. If you want 10L for the upload IM me, but I'm betting it will still get the seam. Meanwhile I'm going to try saving what I've as mono first and upload that...

Depends on the WAV, but I'd rather have a lossless version--especially for looping. Regardless, RAR is better than ZIP (for WAVs anyway). I took a 22KHz, 16-bit stereo (705kpbs or 89kpbs bitrate depending on the tooltip, oddly) 1.45-second 125KB WAV and converted/compressed it in different ways:

ZIP (max compression): 116KB (lossless)
RAR (1024KB dictionary): 77.5KB (lossless)
OGG (mode 3+, ~320kpbs): 61.9KB (1.58s)
MP3 (56kpbs): 10.4KB (1.5s)

I'd rather RAR it and keep it lossless (unless it didn't NEED to be looped). SL should at LEAST support ZIP/RAR sound uploads. MP3s wouldn't hurt either--oh and, of course, OGG.

The point is to let the USER decide what format to upload in so as to retain quality and seamlessness when desired. SL shouldn't be butchering sounds (or images/textures).

Might as well use FLAC.

I'm sure LL doesn't want to waste bandwidth streaming audio files that sound similar that are 10 times larger. In their eyes it's a waste. In my eyes it's a waste. You have alot of people to convince that this is worth dev time.

As to adding ogg upload support it is pretty moot. Its been a while since i looked at the ogg standard, LL probably doesn't want to have to check audio length for ogg uploading.