1.6 Edit Mode Control Changes

Very very tedious. That about sums up how I feel on the new "tab only move" for objects. After almost TWO years of building with the pre-1.6 drag to move objects I am now forced to click tiny little tabs to slide my objects around. PLEASE add a check box or a debug option to go back to the old way (movement via click anywhere on object and drag to move along X and Y and hold control to move UP.)

I completely agree with my friend Div on this one, bring drag to move back.

You guys are slightly insane, because I've been using the main axis arrows like usual, and ignoring the new tabs mostly - with the correct results. I'm a bit confused as to how the main axis arrows wouldn't work for you....

Elaborate?

It's nto the arrows they ae talking about, but dragging the body of the object itself. In 1.5 doing that would let you move the object in the XY plane, then adding the control key while you do it would switch it to the XZ or YZ (depending on your viewing angle) until you let go of control. This let you REALLY move something around without ever having to let go of it. And because you could start this body-drag without first selecting the object, you could target very small objects from far away and bring them towards the camera, moving it up and down as well if needed. Damn useful.

With the triangular planar-drag tabs, you are locked into a single plane for the whole drag. Also, it's harder to see these new tabs from many angles.

I believe the change went in to allow selection-drags to start with the cursor over a prim. In 1.5 and before, you had to start a selection drag over sky or landscape. (Why I always perfered to build out on bare ground instead of in buildings.)

Personally, I would have just used control-drag or some other modifier key combo to do this instead of removing an often-used tool like body-drag.

Since "we can never go home agian"... We should ask that pressing control while dragging one of the planar-drag triangle handles swaps it for the next-best-viewing-angle-axis like the old body-drag did. Then the functionality is back, even if the interface has changed. (That is, starting the drag on the triangular planar-drag handles instead of starting it anywhere else on the body of the prim.)

options options, yes i really really dont like this click on tabs to move the prims around now.

You could just click on the prim anywhere and move around before, now i have to either use arrows or the tiny tabs to move, old habits die slow .

Now ..well i can barly see the small tabs, and the arrows bring up the hiddious ruler wich i also would like a option to toggle/on/off, seriously

I just repeated myself couple of times huh

Omfg. Your so right... It's soooooooooo annoying clicking on the tabs!! And all the other changes are driving me crazy trying to create/move the simplest things!!!


!!!!!!!!!!

--DIES--

Yeah, why try to fix something that isn't broken? Just makes it harder

i love the new drag handles. goodbye to the days of clicking to select multiple prims and the last click moves everything slightly and especially when you end up losing things that way..

I agree with Zuzi.

IMO, it's a good change, and here's the rationale:

Those who actually move objects/prims by dragging them, rather than using the axes, probably aren't building a lot (who would do a serious build with that kind of (lack of) precision? -- it'd be like doing dental work with oven mitts on).

So the people who build a fair bit are already used to the arrows, and now they won't get the frustration of accidentally missing an arrowhead and having the prim go off-kilter. If you're serious about building, practice using the arrowheads a bit, and you'll soon realize their superiority. *elitist shrug and haughty look*

"I, for one, welcome our new arrowhead-/tab-only-moving overlords."

Defering to Richard (who made these changes, and is following this feedback for subsequent changes), the idea that caused these problems was the desire to make rectangle selection work without having to find a bit of ground or sky to activate it. When you click on an object somewhere other than on the control handles now, the rectangle select is activated. So the tradeoff is grab-dragging versus having multiple selection be easier.

Please please please don't change back the drag stuff!

The new changes are great! Sure they change some old habits, but that loss of comfort is sooooooo totally made up for by the way that I can now make complicated things with lots of overlapping parts *indoors* instead of having to go outside.

Also if you do have add lots of preferences please add them to the preference pane, maybe in a new tab for "building tools" so the build window (which is already cluttered) doesn't get worse!

A side effect of this change - which I'm very very very glad to see - is the end of "whoops, that tiny lag spike just caused me to drag a prim I wasn't even editing 3 sims over."

This phenomenon would occur when you were clicking the X in a window (or something non-building related) and the client lagged for just that second. Your click would sometimes be registered as a click on a prim. Then next movement of your mouse (with you thinking you didn't have anything selected) to your inventory window (or windows taskbar, or chat window, or whatever you were doing) would drag the prim out of existence. Undo would rarely work.

Although this change makes it just a teeny bit more cumbersome to quickly move prims, having a little more protection against accidental lag drags is a good thing.

Also, being able to multiple select (thanks Philip) without being on empty ground or up in the air is a terribly useful feature. Much more so than click dragging in my humble opinion.

Try it for a week, you'll like it!

gene Poole :
Those who actually move objects/prims by dragging them, rather than using the axes, probably aren't building a lot (who would do a serious build with that kind of (lack of) precision? -- it'd be like doing dental work with oven mitts on).


I been building for over 6 years, architechture,cnc',acad,3dmax, ect , i use snap i alot of my things, and amazingly i use move object click move drag, in all my builds, snap is a wonderfull thing, clicking on tiny arrows are not needed at all.

This just make my build take longer time to do, click on tiny tiny arrows is a nuisance for me, other it might be good, but this is where the OPTIONS come in

Something SL doesnt seem to have lot of, those tabs are hiddiously annoying , old habit die hard, and i cant stand this thing at all

Fair enough, Thili. It might also be that I'm just more anal than most about precision (in the case of CAD-related stuff, you probably are too, or you have a host of unsatisfied customers ).

Philip mentioned another improvement that I'm quite happy about -- "proper" selection-rect handling -- thanks for this also, LL.

I actually wanna see LESS options!

^_^

No don't get out the carving knives yet! ^^;; What I mean is I want more "states" in editing that I can change when I want to (by holding down a key say) and less "settings" that I have to find a tiny little check box in the edit window for. Photoshop is a good example of this.. sure you can use the palettes to turn everything on and off if you want to, but to be really fast at working you just learn the key commands and are switching from zooming to transform to panning around to selection without ever having to find a little square to click on...

For example, couldn't we all be happy if there was key you could hold down while dragging that would automajically put you into a move state?

Or even better, how about a key you press that makes the new drag thingies REALLY *BIG*, so you don't have to worry about finding a little tiny pref box when you want to drag, but still have the ability to select stuff when inside a building?

Actually what I REALLY REALLY want is to make the "scale both sides" preference a thingy I can toggle or change into temporarily with a key... most of my building I end up switching between both "preferences" ALL THE TIME! ^_^

But between having to find and select the arrows on the object and I'm building (prolly near my mouse) and a setting in the edit window (off to teh side and taking up too much space already).. well I'd rather have the first one! ^^;;

I remembered! I remembered! ^_^

It might not have been "broken" per se, at least not to you, but for me the new tools seem a lot less frustrating. I guess the experienced builders are going to have to get used to them for a bit. But for newly learning builders, it's pretty great.

A simple check box/toggle menu item/even a keypress for that matter would allow for both of these to work together. We can drag select anywhere when we need to and press a key to switch to easy drag movement after. It's all about the option to be able to do both! This would allow everyone to be happy and be able to use both ways.

I Completely agree with the majority of posts on this thread.
I also feel that one aspect wasnt mentioned. While building lets say the object needs to be moved diagonally instead of just left or right. In 1.5 this problem was easily resolved with a simple click/drag and from there let the arrows get it perfect. Now its like etch-a-sketch hell in SL. You have to fuss with the arrows moving it up a little, over a little, up a little, over a little, never actually being able to get it perfect. I build ALOT. And ive noticed on the majority of big builds, especially if what i need has been rotated off the usual x/y plane, it becomes extremely helpful to click and drag, steady hand and keen eyes get it every time. The lack of this has made building frustrating rather than enjoyable.

(if this was discussed and i missed a post my appologies).

Please oh please oh please. Put a toggle option in so you can execute the click/drag feature.

Three more suggestions:

1) Please consider removing the checkbox for "use grid" entirely! O.o!! Okay not really remove it entirely, but remove it from the edit palette and into a menu or even the main preference section. You can do this and then even have both of the old options again for folks who want it that way. My idea is that most people actually just set this as a preference and aren't changing it a lot while building. Getting it away makes room for:

2) Please consider making the options for "local axis" "world axis" and "reference axis" into buttons. I change between the first two all the time while building, and I mean very very frequently. It used to take me one press of the button - now it takes me a press, a move, and a press again...

3) Please consider the following suggestion for a way to switch between "stretch both sides" and "stretch one side" without finding the little edit palate. Simply put, don't make it a button in the palette, but a different thingy you can click on and drag right around the object, kinda like for move you now have the little tabs as well as the arrows...

P.S. Specifically to Phillip and Richard Linden: Thanks for taking the time to listen! Actually your solutions to this stuff has always impressed me so keep up the good work and keep trying to find ways to make building for us faster and easier even if it's not exactly the suggestions we're coming up with! ^_^

I hate this new system its clumsy and artificial and cumbersome and not natural at all. In detailed cave making and jungle or swamp landscaping or complicated village and city house builds with pathways etc, these changes are a complete nuisance not being able to drag an object into a precise place in more than one direction at a time and using tiny stupid confusing little triangles which get hidden in dark corners and against bright objects and amongst complicated planting. Having to go up a bit left a bit down a bit, back a bit all on separate arrows is just a BACKWARD step (!) and a real NUISANCE to serious builders

Philip Linden says:

Defering to Richard (who made these changes, and is following this feedback for subsequent changes), the idea that caused these problems was the desire to make rectangle selection work without having to find a bit of ground or sky to activate it.


This is totally not worth the supposed benefit of this being able to select objects in a drag without ground or sky and who asked for THIS anyways. No one would have asked for this knowing that you would have to cripple the building system to get it.

MY VOTE to go back to old movement system where an object can be moved within a drag in MORE than ONE plane , or GIVE US AN OPTION to uncheck this new silly system. I hate this and its going to make my work extremely difficult and clumsy. Please remove this unwanted feature and Philip why dont you CONSULT with builders BEFORE adding these unwanted and disliked gimmicks to updates.

By example : We have asked for multiple drag and drop movement of items within and between inventory windows, one of the most time wasting and needed reforms of SL for over 1,5 years now and not ONE version update has it yet u add these completely pointless reforms of basic building wihtout even asking how we think.

The polarized responses to these changes really speaks to the complexity of the game and the different ways people use these tools.

For my part, I rarely (ok, never) move something by dragging it freestyle, I've always used the handles. Being able to drag-select while indoors is the best change to the tools I've ever experienced and something I wished for from the minute I put 4 walls around myself and tried to build. It was either work in the yard, or move a wall to get some land to start a drag-select. I find the new interface to be rather enhanced -- and don't tell anyone but... I actually kind of sort of like the grid thingy.

Now, I can also see how this would be a miserable change to someone who regularly used the freestyle object move.. There needs to be a way to accommodate all the builders & different building styles with as little compromise as possible for anyone -- a tall order, for sure.

I'll agree that more keyboard control is necessary, perhaps a la photoshop as mentioned earlier, certainly some momentary toggles (for drag-select vs. move object or stretch one side vs. stretch both sides to name a couple) would be welcome. As many things as can be hotkeyed on the fly the better. I think I like the new grid thing because I like the idea of switching "modes" instantly without clicking on a checkbox or a radio button -- its not a perfect implementation but it feels like a big step in the right direction.

Some good ideas in this thread, keep 'em coming, builders.

Best,
JL

p.s. for the ANGRY people everywhere... Did you spend even 20 minutes on the preview grid checking out the new tools so you could voice your opinion *before* the release? You were advised well in advance that the tools of your trade were changing and that you should really go check out the changes. The preview was up for, what, a month or longer? We were asked MANY MANY times to check out the preview grid and to provide feedback -- none of us should be crying foul, we had every opportunity to make our opinions and suggestions known at the approprate time -- before the thing went gold.

My only gripe with 1.6 is that now complex objects no longer snap to the grid baised on their root prims. The new way isnt' without its uses, but I wish there was an option to switch it on and off with the original root-prim way.

Was that in the preview? Because then I dunno know how I missed that one.. O_o