Libertarians of Second Life

The Libertarians of Second Life group is a group for people who are already libertarians in real life.

When the group gets twenty members I will have the Lindens create a group forum for it. I think a libertarian group forum might be kind of amusing.

The word libertarian is an old word, and as many such old words do, it has more than one meaning.

As I use it, it has to do with a belief in the rights of individuals to their own lives, liberty, and property, the right to freedom in regard to trade, to freedom to live one's life by one's own choices, the obligation to abide by the non-aggression principle at all times. Libertarianism, in the sense in which I mean it, is radically anti-statist and anti-collectivist.

Some authors associated with libertarianism are Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, Ludwig von Mises, Frederich Hayek, Robert Heinlein, L. Neil Smith, and many others.

This group's membership is by invitation only. You can respond to this thread, or IM me inworld, if you would like to join.

I don't really like turning people down, so if you aren't already a libertarian, a radical pro-individualist, anti-statist supporter of freedom in one's personal life, in one's economic life, and an opponent of government military intervention, please don't ask to join.

If you support tax-funded schools and compulsory education, if you don't believe the free market can provide roads, trains, and other forms of travel that require large infrastructure investment, if you support the draft, please don't ask to join.

I've joined this group, and urge more Libertarians to sign up so we can get our own forum. Let's get some good discussions going on improving foreign policy, strengthening civil liberties, and advocating personal responsibility. C'mon, Libs. Be joiners.

Nice to have you join, Katlin.

We have had one more member join since Katlin's arrival.

The goal of 20 members required for group forum approval is very close.

I got an LP membership renewal notice recently.

I believe the basic one year standard membership is 25 dollars, if I remember correctly.

What is the optimum way to spend 25 bucks to advance liberty and give statism a bad day?

I'd be very interested in joining. Can you send me an invite?

You should have you invite to the group already.

We have enough members at present for a group forum so I have sent a request for the creation of a group forum to [email]groups@secondlife.com[/email]. Two resident names have to be supplied for the role of moderator to get a group forum created; the moderators selected initially are me and Rhinehold Nordberg.

Hopefully the group forum will be created within a few days.

Out of curiousity, but more likely because I like to cause (political) trouble, who would not support the above definition? A few I suppose, but not many. Rather, the definition might depend on who would cleave to those principles until the bitter end - when times are good and easy, nearly everyone is a libertarian, but when times are hard, people are threatened, etc., the herd/gang mentality takes over and statism and collectivism prevail. And since human history is one long series of crises.... You get my point.



Ugh. Heinlein and Rand? Heinlein was a political jester and opportunist who stuck his finger in the wind and wrote the way it was blowing. At least he was a better science fiction author than L. Neil Smith. And Rand? The less said, the better.

Now the Austrian economists like von Mises, Hayek, and Rothbard - they did serious, real-world work.



Well, again - am I? or am I not? By your comments above, von Mises, Rothbard, and Hayek wouldn't be allowed to join, because they all supported aspects of the mixed economy model, and all approved of certain state-facilitated/private-sector operated large scale infrastructure. And Heinlein himself, of course, from his Starship Troopers through his Friday phases, also supported mixed collaborations. The question doesn't devolve on whether the states can or can't play a role, or even whether a free market can or shouldn't exist. The question devolves on what role the state should play. If your answer is "none" and "free", you're not a serious libertarian - like von Mises, Rothbard, or Hayek, or even Heinlein.

Murray Rothbard for a fair part of his life espoused "anarcho-capitalism", and was during that part of his life about as anti-statist as a human could possibly be. It was Murray Rothbard's writings that lead me to describe myself as an anarchist. I've seen the term "Rothbardian anarcho-capitalist" used to indicate a certain strain of libertarian thought. "Rothbardian anarcho-capitalist" is one label I might apply to my beliefs.

If Robert Heinlein was still alive, and he for some reason asked to join a group of mine in Second Life, I'd invite him in and rewrite the charter to accommodate his presence.

The word libertarian has been and is still used to describe ideologies quite different from the description I gave. "Libertarianism" is sometimes used to describe what I might call anarcho-collectivism. "Libertarian" is used in the phrase "civil libertarian"; some things supported by "civil libertarians" call for government interference in the peaceful use by individuals of their own property, and would not be supported by libertarians of my stripe. Some folks, I'm sure, haven't the slightest idea at all of any meaning for the term libertarian. My group charter isn't mean to be some groundbreaking, earth shatteringly insightful definition of "the one true libertarianism".

If my charter seems to exclude people because of their support of statism, well, that is exactly what it is supposed to do.

As for opinions about writers, to each their own. I enjoyed Robert Heinlein's books before I ever heard about libertarianism. They have been enjoyed by and continue to be enjoyed by many. Some of them have ideas that some libertarians find interesting or amusing or in some fashion enjoyable to read. Hence I mention them.

Reading Ayn Rand's writing is what turned me into a libertarian. I found her fiction quite powerful. It kept me up reading for hours. Had I lived in New York at the time I'd certainly have attempted to become a "Student of Objectivism " or whatever the precise proper term was, but since I lived out of the area I didn't. If someone despises Ayn's fiction, that's alright by me. That Ayn Rand's works have had a great influence on many who consider themselves libertarian or libertarian-ish is a fact, and thus I mention her name.

L. Neil Smith's writing - well, I enjoyed reading several of his books. I was already a libertarian by the time I read them, so they didn't have any propaganda value to me. They don't suit me as well as many other books do, but they sold well and entertained libertarians and introduced libertarian ideas to science fiction readers. Hence I mention the name.

Ursala K. Le Guin's novel "The Dispossessed" is a good book, I'd say, and a good way to get some anti-statism mixed in with a pleasant read.

You say that people who don't support any role for the state aren't serious libertarians. That's fine, you can use the word however you want. I consider people who believe the power of the state can be kept within whatever boundary they define as "the proper role of government" to be utopians.

I am a libertarian, I've been one for 35 years now. I'm also an anarchist. I've been one for 34 years and 9 months or so.

You said "The question devolves on what role the state should play. If your answer is "none" and "free" [..]" - what question is the word "free" an answer too?

Interesting that you cite Heinlein as a classic libertarian and anti-statist, because his most important character and his vehicle for putting his own opinions into his works, Lazarus Long, was, for much of the character's story life, effectively the government itself. He went on at length through that character about the importance of strong government control over the money supply.

Please show me where I cited Robert Heinlein as a classic libertarian and anti-statist.

I mentioned some authors associated with libertarianism. I didn't say the authors were libertarians, nor that every word they ever wrote in their entire lives was a thread in a great tapestry of libertarian propaganda. Books can be associated with a political movement by virtue of being popular among the movement's members.

Laissez-Faire Books , a libertarian bookstore that has been in business for decades, sells "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" and has sold it for that entire period of time. I still have the printed catalogs from long ago in which it is included along with other books by the authors I mentioned.

By the way, there is now a group forum for the Libertarians of Second Life group , so it's probably better to post messages directed to me about libertarianism to that group's forum and not clutter up this Bulletin Board forum.